Here are a couple other articles for your reading:

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=83469

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=87264

Peace,

-D

I don’t know if this website works anymore but I tried to reply weeks ago and it didn’t post.

Here are a couple other articles for your reading:

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=83469

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=87264

Peace,

-D

You don’t know how welcome this article is. Because of a lack of good churches in our area, my wife and I have been searching for a long time for a church home. Lately, we’ve kind of taken a break and just met at home and have been studying 1 John for a while.

This past week, however, we decided to attend a local assembly. It meets in what used to be the area mission building. The pastor talked about being dead in sin and dependent on God to be saved at all.

Now, the atmosphere was great because the attendees were very diverse…racially and also because some were from the “new” mission a block or so away. They certainly made room for the poor and even treated them as equals. That was very refreshing.

The only possible “fly in the ointment” (that I haven’t even confirmed yet) was that one person who welcomed us (whom we know from years ago) told us that this church teaches Wesleyanism. Being a calvinist, that bothers me. But you see their attitude and you wonder “Do I draw a line here?”.

Again, I’m not 100 certain that this place *is* Wesleyan in its doctrine, and it is certainly possible that our friend has it wrong. But it was a concern; and a serious one considering how badly we wish to find a decent fellowship.

They had two quotes in the bulletin: One from J.C. Ryle, expounding on how a “redemption” that allows for a “Christian” to live in sin is not a “redemption” taught in Scripture…but also another one from a guy named H.W. Verner who said “There is no position of grace that you cannot fall from…” which would seem to contradict Ryle. So, perhaps, if I understand the Verner quote correctly, they are just a tad confused.

No commentments there yet. We just visited once and if we were to continue I’d have to ask plenty of questions. But I was struggling with this very issue.

Thank you for helping me be a bit more at ease.

Blessings,

Tim

Because of Jesus,
Pat Chwialkowski
hearttoheart@bex.net

You are absolutely right.

Ray,

I have been wrong in continuing to discuss this with you. I hope that you will one day see your statements and beliefs for what they really are. I can only pray that our discourse has encouraged you to look to the scriptures, in the future, and attempt to find out what they really mean, because there is so much more there than what you have been willing to see thus far.

In Christ,
Daniel Chaney

Romans 3:28: For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Daniel,

Give it up man. Pearls before swine. Everybody who’s still interested can plainly see the error of Ray’s statements. You don’t need to engage it. He’s self-refuting. You’re only giving a further forum to a heretic. Let this thread die, just like the other 200+ comment threads from last year.

You said, “He that believes and is baptized will be saved. It is both belief and baptism and then salvation. That is what I mean by standing with Jesus. It is what He said.”

You don’t seem to understand what I am saying. You can say “It is what He said” all you want, but that does not make it so. If you were standing with Jesus, then you would seek to find out what is meant by those words rather than just assuming what they mean. I have given you a clear interpretation, so either refute it, or do not continue in your position. You have yet to show me where my interpretation is flawed. I asked you not to respond by simply restating your belief, but you did so yet again, so I can only conclude that you have no defense.

You said, “Real , true justifying faith is a faith that works. Not works of merit so as to boast but works that come from trusting in God.”

This is exactly what I said. Do you not see the inconsistencies in your statements? I need go no farther than this statement

You said, “a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”

This is completely wrong. Christianity has always said that salvation is by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone (meaning not accompanied by acts of obedience). Salvation is by faith alone. True faith, however, will be exhibited by obedience. THE OBEDIENCE IS NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION. If it was, then it would be a work of merit. James is not saying that works are necessary to procure salvation, he is saying that works are necessary to validate faith, and show that it is real.

You said, “You are calling obedience a work . I am not.”

YES YOU ARE! When you say that we are saved by faith plus works, you are calling obedience a work. If works are necessary for salvation, then that automatically makes obedience a work of merit. This is just the way it is. You must deny logic to disagree with this. The Bible says that salvation is not of works, you say, “a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” We are not saved by faith PLUS anything. You cannot call yourself a Christian when you deny the fundamental belief upon which the whole Christian faith hinges.

You said, “Jesus said , not what Gill has written…”

This is just it, you don’t know what Jesus said. You will not listen to any explanations. You need to consider that there may be another interpretation, and that yours might not be correct. I have given you another interpretation of James and Mark 16:16; you have not responded to those interpretations. Please do so.