Comments on: Why Pray if God Is Sovereign? (Part 2) http://www.sfpulpit.com/2009/01/23/why-pray-if-god-is-sovereign-part-2/ A Ministry of Shepherds' Fellowship Sun, 01 Mar 2009 19:54:00 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Daniel Chaney http://www.sfpulpit.com/2009/01/23/why-pray-if-god-is-sovereign-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-285042 Daniel Chaney Tue, 27 Jan 2009 01:29:30 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2009/01/23/why-pray-if-god-is-sovereign-part-2/#comment-285042 Mike, You are absolutely right, and have put it very well. Mike,

You are absolutely right, and have put it very well.

]]> By: Jacob Lichner http://www.sfpulpit.com/2009/01/23/why-pray-if-god-is-sovereign-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-284928 Jacob Lichner Sun, 25 Jan 2009 22:44:42 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2009/01/23/why-pray-if-god-is-sovereign-part-2/#comment-284928 To ask "Why pray if God is sovereign?" doesn't make any sense at all biblically speaking. It's like saying "why pray if God is able to answer your prayer?" or "why ask your father for what you need if he can get you what you need?" or "why ask your father to fix a problem if he is able to fix it?"... See how stupid that is? Unfortunately, the real question that is being asked here on pulpit is "Why pray if everything has already been preordained?". And I suppose that is a reasonable question, but it doesn't apply to biblical Christianity. To ask “Why pray if God is sovereign?” doesn’t make any sense at all biblically speaking. It’s like saying “why pray if God is able to answer your prayer?” or “why ask your father for what you need if he can get you what you need?” or “why ask your father to fix a problem if he is able to fix it?”… See how stupid that is?

Unfortunately, the real question that is being asked here on pulpit is “Why pray if everything has already been preordained?”. And I suppose that is a reasonable question, but it doesn’t apply to biblical Christianity.

]]> By: Mike Riccardi http://www.sfpulpit.com/2009/01/23/why-pray-if-god-is-sovereign-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-284698 Mike Riccardi Fri, 23 Jan 2009 22:54:45 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2009/01/23/why-pray-if-god-is-sovereign-part-2/#comment-284698 I think the practical answer to this question, which I am confident will be one of the five to come, is that God ordains everything. That includes ends as well as means. Prayer is a means to the ends that God ordains. Another example might be people actually getting saved. How does that happen? Well, in one sense, God determines that. "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him." So, how did I get saved? God set His grace upon me. He ordained that I be born again with new eyes to see and a new heart to understand. He did it. But in another sense I got saved by the preaching of the Word quickening my heart. We're begotten again by the living Word that was preached to us (1Pet 1:23-25). So, God did it, but the preaching of the Word did it. So can we say, then, "Why preach if God sovereignly chooses the elect to receive salvation?" Certainly not. God sovereignly chooses whom He will set His saving grace upon, and He just as sovereignly ordains that these ends be accomplished and applied to me by the means of preaching the Word. Same thing with prayer. God ordains all that comes to pass. But he also ordains that these things come to pass by the means of the prayers of His people. So prayer does have an effect. Just as nobody would get saved without the preaching of the Word (the Bible is clear on that), many things would not come to pass if they were not prayed for. This doesn't mean that God's mind is genuinely changed in such a way that He reverses His decree in any way. It simply means that He ordains both ends and means. I think the practical answer to this question, which I am confident will be one of the five to come, is that God ordains everything. That includes ends as well as means. Prayer is a means to the ends that God ordains.

Another example might be people actually getting saved. How does that happen? Well, in one sense, God determines that. “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.” So, how did I get saved? God set His grace upon me. He ordained that I be born again with new eyes to see and a new heart to understand. He did it.

But in another sense I got saved by the preaching of the Word quickening my heart. We’re begotten again by the living Word that was preached to us (1Pet 1:23-25). So, God did it, but the preaching of the Word did it.

So can we say, then, “Why preach if God sovereignly chooses the elect to receive salvation?” Certainly not. God sovereignly chooses whom He will set His saving grace upon, and He just as sovereignly ordains that these ends be accomplished and applied to me by the means of preaching the Word.

Same thing with prayer. God ordains all that comes to pass. But he also ordains that these things come to pass by the means of the prayers of His people.

So prayer does have an effect. Just as nobody would get saved without the preaching of the Word (the Bible is clear on that), many things would not come to pass if they were not prayed for. This doesn’t mean that God’s mind is genuinely changed in such a way that He reverses His decree in any way. It simply means that He ordains both ends and means.

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