You are absolutely right.

Ray,

I have been wrong in continuing to discuss this with you. I hope that you will one day see your statements and beliefs for what they really are. I can only pray that our discourse has encouraged you to look to the scriptures, in the future, and attempt to find out what they really mean, because there is so much more there than what you have been willing to see thus far.

In Christ,
Daniel Chaney

Romans 3:28: For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Daniel,

Give it up man. Pearls before swine. Everybody who’s still interested can plainly see the error of Ray’s statements. You don’t need to engage it. He’s self-refuting. You’re only giving a further forum to a heretic. Let this thread die, just like the other 200+ comment threads from last year.

You said, “He that believes and is baptized will be saved. It is both belief and baptism and then salvation. That is what I mean by standing with Jesus. It is what He said.”

You don’t seem to understand what I am saying. You can say “It is what He said” all you want, but that does not make it so. If you were standing with Jesus, then you would seek to find out what is meant by those words rather than just assuming what they mean. I have given you a clear interpretation, so either refute it, or do not continue in your position. You have yet to show me where my interpretation is flawed. I asked you not to respond by simply restating your belief, but you did so yet again, so I can only conclude that you have no defense.

You said, “Real , true justifying faith is a faith that works. Not works of merit so as to boast but works that come from trusting in God.”

This is exactly what I said. Do you not see the inconsistencies in your statements? I need go no farther than this statement

You said, “a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.”

This is completely wrong. Christianity has always said that salvation is by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone (meaning not accompanied by acts of obedience). Salvation is by faith alone. True faith, however, will be exhibited by obedience. THE OBEDIENCE IS NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION. If it was, then it would be a work of merit. James is not saying that works are necessary to procure salvation, he is saying that works are necessary to validate faith, and show that it is real.

You said, “You are calling obedience a work . I am not.”

YES YOU ARE! When you say that we are saved by faith plus works, you are calling obedience a work. If works are necessary for salvation, then that automatically makes obedience a work of merit. This is just the way it is. You must deny logic to disagree with this. The Bible says that salvation is not of works, you say, “a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” We are not saved by faith PLUS anything. You cannot call yourself a Christian when you deny the fundamental belief upon which the whole Christian faith hinges.

You said, “Jesus said , not what Gill has written…”

This is just it, you don’t know what Jesus said. You will not listen to any explanations. You need to consider that there may be another interpretation, and that yours might not be correct. I have given you another interpretation of James and Mark 16:16; you have not responded to those interpretations. Please do so.

I said, “They are acts of obedience.”

You responded with, “Exactly . This what I have said all along. Obligating God to save you is lawkeeping , merit ; it is boasting . Obedeince is expressed because of faith.Faith comes from hearing the word.”

I cannot believe what I am reading! Ray, acts of obedience have no power to save! Nor are they necessary to salvation. James says, “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (2:18). Here is what this means, Ray. Works (act of obedience) do not bring faith, they simply reveal it. One who has no acts of obedience (baptism) has dead faith as James tells us. However, these acts of obedience do not bring salvation, but rather, they follow salvation. James clearly tells us that the works SHOW that there is faith. But this is the key, the works do not constitute faith. One can have acts of obedience (outwardly) and not be saved, but one cannot be truly saved who does not exhibit the fruit of the Spirit (acts of obedience). However, the fruit of the Spirit (acts of obedience) are the result of sanctification, which follows salvation, and therefore, cannot have any weight in bringing salvation.

I have not dealt with Mark 16:16 because I have already done so, and you have ignored me. However, for your sake, I will do it again. Here is what I believe that Mark 16:16 means.

Gill’s commentary: “and is baptized; faith must precede baptism, as these words of Christ, and Scripture examples show; and such as have it, ought to make a profession of it, and be baptized; and in which way it is that faith discovers itself, and works by love to Christ; namely, in observing his commands,”

I believe that this verse could be rightly rendered this way: He who spiritually sees his need for Christ, and comes to Him as a sinner and commits his life to Him; and is baptized in obedience to the command of Christ, thereby showing that his faith is not dead, and as a public profession of a faith that is accompanied by works; this man will be saved, however, he who does not believe in this way will be condemned.

I think that it is dangerous of you to build a belief upon one verse that does not clearly teach what you claim, and is clearly denied by the rest of scripture. I have stated what I believe that Mark 16:16 means. If you believe that I am wrong, show me where I have erred. If you cannot, then do not continue to go back to you original statement of, “It says belief and baptism and salvation,” or “I am bound to the Lord and His teaching.” Indeed you are bound, but you are behaving as if you are not. When you have been shown that your interpretation is false, you must abandon it. If you do not, then you are firmly planting your feet in mid air.

Please clarify your last two sentences. What do you mean by, “Those who are baptized believe it is being saved by the blood of Jesus”?

You said, “I am bound to the Lord and His teaching. He was the One who spoke the words of Mark 16 : 16 . Not by human logic. That is where I stand.”

It is your flawed human logic that leads you to interpret those verses the way you do. I do not deny the words of Mark 16:16, however, I think that I have proven logically that those words do not mean what you say they mean. You say that you are bound to the Lord and His teaching, yet you deny the logical (and correct) interpretation in favor of an illogical (and incorrect) one. The words of Mark 16:16 do not mean what you say they mean. You must deny all logical/biblical forms of interpretation to hold to your position. Therefore, I must logically deduce that you are holding to a blind belief that is clearly an errant view. I have attempted to give you a sound interpretation, and you have completely ignored it. I have shown you that the verse in Mark does not, and indeed cannot, teach what you hold that it teaches, but you have, without refuting my statements, chosen to hold to your position anyway. If this is the case, then you have chosen to abandon logic, which would explain the many errant views that you have expressed in the short time I have known you.

You said, “When anyone is saved by faith then they do something. When anyone confesses their faith in Jesus they do something.”

Yes, they do something, but their action is not what saves them. God saves them. If you believe that confessing faith in Jesus is the saving act in itself, then you are sadly mistaken. If confessing faith in Christ (the confession in and of itself) then ninety percent of all Americans would be saved! EVERYONE confesses Jesus Christ! That is not what saves a person. The Holy Spirit’s work alone is what saves a person. In Revelation we see that many people will say Lord Lord, we did all these things IN YOUR NAME. The Bible says in Romans 10:9: “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” On the surface, you would seem correct, however, this verse assumes that the Holy Spirit has already done a work in the heart. Also, it is not the confession in and of itself that brings salvation.

These instances of people doing things and being saved can be confusing if you have chosen to abandon all forms of logical conclusions, but they all have one thing in common: they meet the first qualification of a work of merit, but not the second. That means that they are something that we do, but they have no weight in themselves to bring salvation. They are acts of obedience.