Clarifying Calvinism (Part 5)
January 16th, 2009
(By Phil Johnson)
Part V: Why this issue is really a lot simpler than most people think
At the end of the previous post, I described how even in my Arminian days, I affirmed an awful lot of truth about the sovereignty of God: I would have affirmed with no reservation whatsoever that God is God; that He does all His good pleasure; that no one can make Him do otherwise; that He is in control and in charge no matter how much noise evildoers try to make; and not only is He in charge, He is working all things out for my good and His glory. As a matter of fact, my confidence in the promise of Romans 8:28 was what motivated my prayer life.
That’s Calvinism. If you believe those things, you have affirmed the heart of Calvinism, even if you call yourself an Arminian. Those are the basic truths of Calvinism, and if you already believe those things, you are functioning with Calvinist presuppositions.
In fact, the truths of Calvinism so much permeate the heart of the gospel message, that even if you think you are a committed and consistent proponent of Arminianism, if you truly affirm the gospel you have already conceded the principle points of Calvinism anyway.
I want to turn to the Scriptures and illustrate for you from a typical passage of Scripture why I think that’s true. For the remainder of this series, we’ll focus on one very short text of Scripture that illustrates perfectly the point I am making.
Let’s home in on a truth Arminians hold in especially high regard, and rightfully so: the love of God. I’ve chosen a short verse, and a familiar one, to make this as simple as possible—1 John 4:19. This is one of those memory verses AWANA kids love because it’s easy to get credit for memorizing a whole verse, and it’s just eight words in English: 1 John 4:19: “We love Him because He first loved us.”
I remember very well the first time I noticed this verse. I was a fairly new Christian at the time, and I was surprised to find this truth in the Bible.
I was appallingly ignorant of the Bible when I was a brand new Christian. I grew up going to liberal churches where the Bible was hardly mentioned unless the Sunday School teacher wanted to disagree with something the Bible said.
So I remember taking a Bible literacy exam when I entered Moody Bible Institute, still as a fairly new believer. I hate to think what kind of score I made on that exam. I’m sure it was appallingly low. The amount I knew about the Bible was embarrassingly meager. I knew, of course, that Moses got the Ten Amendments on Mount Cyanide, but the only one I could name was “Thou shalt not admit adultery.”
But we still sang some of the old hymns, and one of the ones that was familiar to me was, “Oh, How I love Jesus!” And I was always intrigued by the closing line of that song: “Oh, how I love Jesus, because He first loved me.” So I was familiar with the words, but I was really surprised to find that this is what the Bible says: “We love Him, because He first loved us.”
For some reason, from my earliest childhood, hearing the chorus of that song, that had always struck me as a pretty lousy reason for loving Jesus. Of course, in my unregenerate state, I had almost no understanding whatsoever of the love of Christ for me. I knew that He loved me and I was supposed to love Him, because we sang about it and all. But loving Him just because He loved me first didn’t seem like a particularly noble or admirable reason for loving Him. In fact it always sounded a little bit childish, because it was the very same reason I always gave my mother when she asked me why I hit my brother: Because he hit me first!
I understood that reciprocity is not a good motive for determining how we act toward other people. “You love me, and I’ll love you in return” is as morally bankrupt as saying, “You hit me, and I’ll hit you back.” Love is supposed to be unconditional, isn’t it? So “because He first loved me” never sounded like quite an adequate motive for loving Jesus.
So I was really surprised after I became a Christian and started reading the Bible, when I found that these words are taken directly from Scripture: “We love Him, because He first loved us.”
But what I didn’t understand then, but I understand now, is that this verse isn’t speaking merely about the motive for our love. It is a profound statement about the grace of God that sovereignly secures our love and transforms us from God-hating enemies into adopted sons and daughters whose hearts naturally overflow with the purest kind of love—not only love for God, but also love for one another.
Incidentally, there’s a minor textual issue in this verse that I ought to mention. In the King James and New King James Versions, this verse is translated just the way I have read it: “We love Him, because He first loved us.” That’s because the Greek texts from which the King James Version was translated include the object Him.
It doesn’t ultimately matter which reading you prefer, because both things are actually true, and our capacity for loving God is dependent on our ability to have true love. If we couldn’t love at all, we certainly couldn’t love God. So either way, the meaning of this verse includes the truth that “We love Him, because He first loved us.”
I hear that a lot with my grandsons: “He hit me first”.
Nice post. The truth of this small verse became just a bit clearer to me, and so edified my soul in His love. To know the height, depth, width, and length of Christ’s love for us is imperative, though it’s a love beyond understanding. And to know it’s a personal love. Christ loved Phil, and sought and died for Phil, or Don, and all His elect children. Amazing love.
Excellent series, Phil.
I’m always a bit mystified when I hear Calvinists affirming the soveriengty of God as if any real Christian denies it. What you like to call Arminians also affrim this. Why do you limit God by forbidding Him to allow men to choose…as He repeatedly commands them to do? What is it about this that somehow hamstrings God in your view? He can’t sovereignly allow man to choose? Didn’t he make man in His own image, a rational, creative, moral agent? Yes, man fell, but it is the fallen men also He commands to choose right, to choose life.
Ray B, I hope you’re here and can chime in on this.
If someone I loved (though all men are rubbish in my estimation next to God) were to go to hell, could I look at them and say, “I’m glad you’ve been damned for it is God’;s good pleasure”?. I COULD say, however, that ‘all day long He held out His hand and YE WOULD NOT”…
I truly believe in the God of love, though as I have said, He is no putty tat and I fear Him.
God gave Adam and Eve choice and God was sovereign before creation , actually in all of eternity . Actually , as we say becase we are limited , God in the eternal past. John 3 :16 and whosoever will is a definite statement of free will and does not put limits on His sovereign will.
It is commonly said that since ‘in Adam all die’ that means that man no longer has free will. Any attempt to ‘prove’ this from scripture comes down to differing interpretations. It is not conclusively stated. As I said, nothing about election cannot be explained by God’s prescience. The foreknowledge of God plus a sincere offer to all of salvation (as ‘moderate’ Calvinists’ like MacArthur affirm) equals election. Someone asked me recently (in defense of Calvinism) “who would knowingly oppose God and embrace hell”?
Ro 1:32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Paul said he was not disobedient to the heavenly vision (Acts 26:19)…how could he be if there were such thing as “Irresitible Grace”…If IG existed, why do so many take years to turn to Christ after hearing the gospel…some after weighing the evidence?
Great series, Phil.
Thanks, Phil, for these posts. You have a wonderful way of simplifying these profound truths, especially with your use of illustration and application. I appreciate your contributions to the body of Christ!
David M. said “I’m always a bit mystified when I hear Calvinists affirming the soveriengty of God as if any real Christian denies it. What you like to call Arminians also affrim this.”
heck, you noncalvinists can’t even spell “sovereignty.” ;-p
so it’s not surprising that arminians like roger olson would use a word like “sovereignty” as you do, in a humanistic fashion that winds up in nonsense such as “what if God sovereignly chooses to limit Himself and not be all that sovereign.”
http://www.baylor.edu/lariat/news.php?action=story&story=46486
as olson says: “But what if God limits himself so that much of what happens in the world is due to human finitude and fallenness? What if God is in charge but not in control?”
that is the noncalvinist take: “God is ‘in charge’ but not ‘in control.’ ” (but not even “in charge” in the sense that you leave your teenager “in charge” for a few minutes…where there still is some lingering notion of responsibility.) “God is ‘in charge’” – not as an almighty Creator, but more like an earthly king who does the best He can acting responsively after we make our choices.
this view limits the notion of “sovereignty” until it is unrecognizable. OTOH, calvinists affirm “sovereignty” in biblical terms:
Psa139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
Dan4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?”
Isa46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’
Prov16:4 The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil. (NASB)
Prov16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
Prov16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.
Prov21:1The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
Isa45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Being in control (sovereignty, I do know how to spell it but my fingers get ahead of each other)does NOT by any means imply control in the puppet show sense. Whenever (almost always anyway) you see God blinding or hardening there is a qualifying phrase (e.g. ’since they did not like to retain the knowledge’, becasue they received not the love of the truth). God is not running a puppet show and torturing the puppets.
David M. said “Why do you limit God by forbidding Him to allow men to choose…as He repeatedly commands them to do? What is it about this that somehow hamstrings God in your view? He can’t sovereignly allow man to choose? Didn’t he make man in His own image, a rational, creative, moral agent? Yes, man fell, but it is the fallen men also He commands to choose right, to choose life.”
we all agree that men are commanded to choose “life” and to choose “Christ.” but the question goes farther back: do these commands necessarily imply ability? why do men choose as they do?
you clearly believe that if God commands someone to “choose life” then that implies ability. IMO, you believe this – not because of scripture – but because it fits with human moral teaching and philosophy. (if Jesus commands us to “be perfect”, does that really mean we have the natural capacity to be perfect?”)
your notion of a generally neutral (“free”) moral agent is similarly grounded in humanistic philosophy. OTOH, the bible speaks of thoroughly fallen creatures, who reject God with their minds – they don’t understand Him – and their hearts – they don’t want Him.
Gen8:21The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood.
Jer13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
Rom3:10As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away, they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good, not even one.”
John14:16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him.
1Cor2:14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
on what grounds, then, does one freely choose what their natures find abhorrent? if God uses some form of “prevenient grace” to make all of our natures essentially neutral at a 50/50 moral balance, what makes one person tip towards the good and another continue in sin?
if it something the individual generates apart from the general work of God to help every person, why aren’t they allowed to take credit for it and boast? (1Cor4:7 seems to give God credit: “For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?”) or if it’s merely random that one person responds to God and another doesn’t, how is this better than the calvinist leaving election up to the good pleasure of a righteous God – which noncalvinists often label as “arbitrary?”
calvinists believe that we choose Christ because He first, in love, regenerated our natures (we were “born from above”) such that the gospel began to make sense and our hearts were softened (ezek 36) so that we desired God. it just fits better with scripture than what you are proposing…
“God is not running a puppet show and torturing the puppets.”
until you can quote me a calvinist who actually believes this,
i’m going to continue to suspect you haven’t made much of an effort to understand.
calvinism properly teaches both that God is in control and that men are responsible for doing as they desire:
-the pharisees wanted Jesus dead just as God intended (or “ordained”)
Acts2:23This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
Isa53:10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
-joseph’s brothers wanted to sell him into slavery and God intended that also
Gen50:20You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.
-the pagan nations wanted to murder israel and steal their land, and God sometimes intended that it happen
Isa10:5 “Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath! 6 I send him against a godless nation, I dispatch him against a people who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets.
7 But this is not what he intends, this is not what he has in mind; his purpose is to destroy, to put an end to many nations…”
Hab1:5 “Look at the nations and watch— and be utterly amazed. For I am going to do something in your days that you would not believe, even if you were told. 6 I am raising up the Babylonians, that ruthless and impetuous people, who sweep across the whole earth to seize dwelling places not their own…”
-pharaoh wanted to oppose God and God intended to use that to establish the passover/Lord’s supper
Rom9:17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
these guys all did what they wanted – no puppets here – and God still accomplished everything that He had ordained and intended. if you want to argue that they could have done otherwise – that peter really could have made a liar of Jesus by refusing to deny Him – i’m not sure you have any sort of biblical leg to stand on. they were “free” to choose to do what they wanted, but ONLY what they wanted (just as certain types of trees produce certain types of fruit…and certain types of springs produce certain types of water.) they were not free to do anything at all, except in the imaginations of human philosophers.
(and the fact that God intended these evil acts to occur all along does nothing to absolve the guilty:
rom9:19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ “)
“Whenever (almost always anyway) you see God blinding or hardening there is a qualifying phrase (e.g. ’since they did not like to retain the knowledge’, becasue they received not the love of the truth).”
but what made you smart enough and/or spiritual enough to retain the knowledge of the truth when so many others have failed and received hardening? i assume you retained it from the beginning or very nearly? what separates those whom God hardens from guys like the apostle paul, who didn’t love the truth but persecuted the church and murdered those sent to him(like stephen) yet received an unusually miraculous and gracious calling instead of hardening?
you seem to view God as foundationally passive, waiting and responding to our love or hate. i understand how that may seem “nicer” but i just don’t see that in scripture.
God isn’t passive, no. He isn’t ‘waiting’ for anything because He KNOWS what will happen in every instance. In case there are any Darwin Fish types in here, I’d like to debunk the idea that God literally MAKES people sin:
Jer 23:32 “Behold, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” says the Lord, “and tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies and by their recklessness. Yet I did not send them or command them; therefore they shall not profit this people at all,” says the Lord.
Jer 7:31 “And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.
But I digress. God allows people to be their wicked selves and serve His purposes at the same time, e.g. Pharaoh, Judas, etc.
God doesn’t wait, doesn’t respond…He acts knowing full well what every man will do in every situation. Now THAT’S sovereignty and omniscience. Anyone could know the end from the beginning if they were writing a script! He knows that even if he tells someone what will be if they do something, they will still do it…from the ‘you will die in your sins’ (John
to Elisha telling Hazael what he would do (2 Kings 8)to Peter’s denial. He knows just what wicked dunderheads we are. Nothing, no device of man could ever thwart His intentions, let me be clear on that on which we do agree.
Charles,
I’m an individual..different from others. More wicked in some way that many, I’m sure (in my original state). That I responded in the affirmative to God’s call in NO WAY makes me worthy or deserving. I earned nothing. Why must we (in the Calvinist view) be blank slates. I am anything but a humanist but even God affirms the uniqueness, creativity and power of man (Gen 11:6) Who wrote Hamlet? God? No, Shakespeare. We can’t even make a decision? I don’t find that in scripture. Inability is a human argument, the same as we are accused of making.
“John 3:16 and whosoever will is a definite statement of free will and does not put limits on His sovereign will.”
Everyone should realize that the “whosoever will” phrase doesn’t correctly translate the Greek in John 3:16. “Whosoever will” implies that if anyone chooses to believe they will be saved. Really the phase should be translated “those who believe” or “those who continue to believe” with the emphasis no upon man’s free will to choose, but upon God saving those who believe. The verse does not comment upon man’s free will.
David M,
What about the instances in Scripture (Hebrew and NT) where God is accliamed as the One who has HIDDEN these things from… AND who has HARDENED the HEART of…
Do you just BURY your head in the sand and cliam ignorance of such uncomfortable truths or do you just deny the Scripture, or deny the Judgments of YAHWEH as pure?
I mean it is not like you can avoid these key word in Biblegatway etc. searches of the Word, or can YOU?
John 12:40
“ He has BLINDED THEIR EYESand HARDENED THEIR HEARTS, Lest they should see with their eyes,LEST THEY SHOULD UNDERSTAND with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”
Exodus 9:12
“But the LORD hHARDENED THE HEART of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.”
Job 17:4
“For You HAVE HIDDEN THEIR HEART from understanding; Therefore You will not exalt them.”
Luke 10:21
“In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You HAVE HIDDEN THESE THINGS from the wise and prudent and REVEALED them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.”
If it is true that you are uncomforable with the simple exposition and clear understanding of Scripture; I would commend you to much prayer and study; for these things are not easy to accept and yet these things are hidden by Him and revealed by Him Alone through the Person of the Spirit.
But just ask yourself if you might not be engaged in POSSIBLY making a god to suit your OWN reasoning and comforts, who is NOT the same in Charectyer and Being as Him who is the Almighty unchanging Triune God of Scripture. No answers needed, just introspection and making our OWN CALLING and ELECTION SURE, as commanded of the LORD in His Word.
It is true that God causes people to do certain things, such as the Philistines (Judges 14)
But his father and mother did not know that it was of the Lord-that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines.
and Eli’s sons (1 Samuel 2)
Nevertheless they did not heed the voice of their father, because the Lord desired to kill them.
these in no way suggest that God hardened them from salvation but rather that He sought to kill them BECAUSE of their rebellion (like the Canaanites). I just don’t see it. I’ve heard the arguments, hours of explanation from MacArthur but I believe you are seeing what is not there.
“If you believe those things, you have affirmed the heart of Calvinism, even if you call yourself an Arminian.”
With respect (and truly, it is) I disagree. The “heart” of Calvinism (an ironic turn of phrase, in my view), and the reason for remonstranting, is reprobation. No matter how many ways it is presented, from being “an eternal manifestation of God’s justice” to “a glory for the elect to behold,” it remains, for me, a doctrine of injustice, foreign to the character of God presented in the Bible. Reprobation is the “elephant in the room” in any discussion of Calvinism, at least from my perspective.
That said, these articles have been well done by Phil Johnson, and I quite agree that non-”Open Theism” Arminians and non-hyper Calvinists do not need to consider each other heretical. It might even be good to have a picnic someday, a little tug-of-war, maybe a potato sack race, and then some lunch.
OK, folks, my last word on the subject. There are only two verses (of the many cited) that give me pause to consider Calvinism:
Luke 10:21
“In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You HAVE HIDDEN THESE THINGS from the wise and prudent and REVEALED them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.”
(just referenced by William) and the not-so-often used
Mt 11:23 “And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. (and similar verses about Tyre, Sidon, etc.)
These might appear to speak of unconditional election but what about
Eze 18:24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
and all the talk about being disqualified, a castaway, etc. by Paul… Do you believe they mean we can lose our salvation? Neither do I because of the whole tenor of scripture overwhelmingly testifying of our security (He who began a good work, etc.). Likewise, the VAST majority of texts about salvation concern God exhorting (even pleading with) men to turn to Him and live. The head-scratching scriptures must be explained another way…
At least my bros on this site don’t go to You Tube extremes. One guy told me recently that Joshua sinned by saying “Choose you this day…”. I’m not kidding!
David,
There are extremes in both camps. And there are brothers in both camps who serve together, and who love the Lord together.
Thanks for the good thoughts, and discussion. May our hearts be more concerned about Christ, and His glory and honor than anything else on this earth in this age. And may the Lord add countless souls to His kingdom, for His glory, as we worship and trust in His grace and truth and power. Amen.
Isn’t is possible that both true, in some sense. In our human frame of reference, we tend to see it as “either/or,” but in reality, it could be both. Let me take an example: suppose I go out to build something in my shop. What I build chooses what I will use, and will not use, as a matter of course. I don’t “predestine” some pieces of wood or metal to be “saved,” and others to be “damned.” I just choose pieces based on what I need.
In the case of humans, we have some capacity to choose what we will be, so God has to take that into account when choosing which of us He will use to build His Kingdom. From one perspective, it looks like we chose. From another, it looks like God chose.
Here, as in other places, I think we are too quick to jump on the dialectic bandwagon. You say: “X,” I say “Y.” You ask for clarification, and my natural tendency is to choose some point that will illustrate my difference from you. You seize on this, and choose some other point to show your difference from me. Back and forth we go, getting farther apart, intentionally, so we can prove how different we are.
It doesn’t make any sense to me.
Russ
donsands,
Mega amens to that. I disagree with some anti-Calvinists (like Hunt and Wesley) when they conclude that belief in Unconditional Election dampens zeal for evangelism. All of us know we are commanded to be His witnesses, while I differ only slightly in my reasoning. While I believe God will save all who could repent regardless of my participation (He’d only find someone else) I want to be the one because it is a joy and honor to be involved with such a great work and I want to obey Him for this is what He delights in. With a world of rebels wreaking havoc and misery I long to be a sweet-smelling savour. God bless you all, my brothers ion arms. May we never fall out of fellowship over this issue.
Thank you David M. I believe you have given some excellent answers and answers that demomstate you have studied the scriptures. Making your calling and election sure sounds to me like each one has to make a choice to stay within the safe boundaries of salvation by remining sanctified through the qualities we are told we need to participate in to escape the corruption in the world and to become a partaker of the divine nature. It seems to me like if there is not choice then we have the frozen chosen , set apart by an arbitrary decision of God and it is all robotic and we are just puppets on a string . And yes then only by irresistable grace, a supernatural intervention you cannot help but respond in faith. Not coming to faith by hearing but only by God never allowing you to be at all responsible but totally protecting some and casting some into hell and they never have the opportunity to be saved because He will make sure they never have an open heart to receive the word of God. Then the only way anyone can love God is by a supernatural intervention and not by allowing anyone to freely love Him. You cannot help but love , because you have no choice. Still sounds robotic to me.John 3 : 16 , however you want to translate it still has a whosoever element and the later verses say some will , by choice come to the light and others will choose to stay in the dark. Whoever comes to the truth comes to the light. But when it is all said and done , there is a task set before us to get the gospel out to the world.
Ray B. said
there is a task set before us to get the gospel out to the world.
At the end of the day, that’s really it. Thanks, bro.
David M,
I note a very excellent Scripture (Also in Ezekiel – Chaters 3 and 18 being of my favourites – Ans worh considering in this context), which spurns my heart on in my evangelistic effort for our King and my love for the unregenerated:
Ezekiel 3:17-19
““Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore hear a word from My mouth, and give them warning from Me: WHEN I say to the wicked, ‘You SHALL SURELY DIE,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man SHALL DIE in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he SHALL DIE in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.”
Note here the emphatic fact stated of YAHWEH, that He actually declares Sovereignly that the type of person herewith SHALL SYRELY DIE (There is no escaping the reality here that God has set His wrath on this type of person, so as that such a person SHALL die in his sins and not be saved – By the decree of God’s own authority).
Yet note that this should spurn the watchman into a more zealous and ferverent loving proclamation of the Gospel truths – Because the LORD shall not leave them blamless who do not share the hope that is in them, they SHALL be required of the blood of those they did not WARN.
Here is the paradox of Evangelsitic Calvinism which is the Historic form of true Calvinistic theology.
As noted before a label can be helpful but it can also be very misleading when used wrongfully.
I believe this Scripture to be the most insightful and simple teaching of what we call Calvinism as it relates to salvation:
John 1:12-13
“But as many as received Him [NOTE: To receive, is to accept and apply this GIFT, as opposed to obtaining it], to them He gave [NOTE: Again this is speach relating to a GIFT, it is not by obtaining it] the right to become children of God, to those who believe [NOTE: This speaks to Responsibility] in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN [NOTE: Can it be said any PLAINER?], but of God {The GIFT Giver].
Thank you for taking up the Scriptures and for the dialogue to promote a Biblical understanding of this diificult doctrine.
I would be quite curious as to how YOU would deal with the difficult Scriptures that I have referenced ver the past few days regardig Election, Predestination and the Foreordaining mercies of YAHWEH?
I cannot recall that you deal with the difficult texts THEMSELVES.
Your servant for the Glory of our King, Master and LORD.
W
quote – Someone asked me recently (in defense of Calvinism) “who would knowingly oppose God and embrace hell”? – unquote
Well, for starters there is Adam and Eve.
Before the fall, Adam and Eve knew God on an intimate basis – and still disobeyed Him. This happened before the Fall. Think that one through.
————
Lots of verses have been quoted above from the Old Testament in an effort to “prove” how God relates to us today. I thought God related to people in the Old Testament differently than He relates to us today. So how can you point to that behavior then and insist that it (that behavior then) is still how God is behaving today? I was particularly struck by the Old Testament admonition to share God’s truth with the sinner; if the sinner doesn’t heed the speaker’s word, he will die in his sins but his blood will not be on the hands of the one who brought him God’s truth. Contrast that with the defining statement in the New Testament that we are “saved” by coming to Christ (not God, as stated in the Old Testament), and that we won’t ever be “coming to Christ” unless God first draws us. If that is true, how can any sinner’s blood be on my hands if the sinner doesn’t turn to God? The only reason he comes to Christ is because God draws him. And if God chooses to draw him, there is no way he can resist the drawing. Nowhere in the painting of that picture in the New Testament am I or anyone else held responsible for the person not coming to Christ.
As evidenced by a host of truths that I will not elaborate on for brevity’s sake, God is working differently in the New Testament than He did in the Old Testament. He is relating to us differently in the New Testament than He related to the folks in the Old Testament. So, again, how can you point to Old Testament verses to “prove” how God relates to us today? The Old Testament verses about God hated this one and hardened the heart of that one tell us only what God did then. They tell us nothing about what God is doing now. And we live in the now. We don’t live in the then. The Old Testament folks did not have the Holy Spirit to work in their lives. We do. But consider Adam and Eve again. They walked and talked with God, and still disobeyed Him – knowing who He was face to face. We are Adam and Eve’s children. What hope do we have of behaving any better than they did, even tho we have the Holy Spirit to walk and talk with us?
Finally, some (many?) in the Jewish faith believe that the scriptures quoted above from the Old Testament were spoken to the Hebrew people (God’s chosen ones) and those scriptures apply ONLY to the Hebrew people. According to some in the Jewish faith, God required things from the Hebrew people that He did not require from everyone else. If this is true, that complicates even more the effort to quote those Old Testament verses as support for the way God relates to us non-Hebrew people now.
Before someone resonds to my post by saying “God never changes: He is the same yesterday, today, and forever”, let me add this.
God has a will. Numerous posts in these boards testify to that. But let us assume this simple thing: God, in eternity past, says to Himself – at Point A in time, I am going to do this; at Point B, I am going to do this; at Point C, I am going to do this, and; at Point D, I am going to do this. Across the span of time, we would see God changing what He was doing. At Point C in time, He is doing something different than He did at Point A. Does this “doing things differently at different points in time” mean that God is changing? I think you will agree that the answer is “no”. From our perspective, God seems to be changing. From God’s perspective, He is only carrying out the plan He made in eternity past – and He is changing nothing in His plan.
So please don’t blow off what I said in my previous post by claiming that, because God doesn’t change, the way He dealt with people in the Old Testament is still the way He deals with us today. God sticks to His plan from Eternity Past. But His plan may have changes in it that call for Him to do one thing at Point A in time and something completely different at Point C in time, etc.
Richard P.
Just a couple thoughts on your latest posts:
1. Consider what Paul states in Acts 20:26-27.
2. Paul uses the O.T. many times to illustrate for us how God relates with men today. Consider for example I Corinthians 10:5-6.
Probably not helpful info, but they came to mind.
Richard P,
A limited response to the Judiastic view of The Hebrew Scripture’s application to the Hebrew Nation alone as an elect nation.
The Prophets & Apostles (As was the case in Jonah’s enforced preaching to Gentiles; of evil reputation at Nineveh; and as in Acts 8 with the Ethiopian etc…) and JESUS Himself confirm them as the Authority given by the Father in their evangelism on MULTIPLE Occasions and NOT ONLY to Hebrews, but also to Samaritans and all nations). Indeed ALL Scripture is given for the people of God, but also is given to unbelievers to effect judgement. (Remembering that Scripture was confirmed by the speech of the Prophets and Apostles, such as in Acts 17). We must also remember that ALL Scripture is given to ALL Mankind, whether it was the Hebrew Scriptures or the New Testament, which finds it’s fullfillmemt in our Great High Priets and Prophet; Messiah Yeshua, whom the Hebrew Scriptures FORETOLD and the New Testament CONFIRMS, so that ALL MEN EVERYWHERE MUST REPENT and receive the gift of Faith and appply it.
Acts 17:30
“Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now COMMANDS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT…”
Romans 16:25-27
“Now to Him who is able to establish you ACCORDING TO my GOSPEL and the PREACHING OF Jesus Christ, ACCORDING TO THE REVELATION of the mystery kept secret since the world began but NOW MADE MANIFEST, and BY THE PROPHETIC SCRIPTURES MADE KNOWN TO ALL NATIONS, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith— to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.”
1 Peter 4:1-7
“Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. FOR THIS REASON THE GOSPEL WAS PREACHED ALSO so to those who are dead, THAT THEY MIGHT BE JUDGED according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
But the end of all things is at hand; therefore BE SERIOUS and watchful in your prayers.”
John 12:48
“He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, HAS THAT HICH JUDGES HIM—THE WORD that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.”
I am glad that you brought up that question. It is a very good question which is often ommitted today and which also is twisted to make the Hebrew Scriptures INsufficient; which is of course contrary to the Teaching of Christ and the Apostles, and indeed against the teaching of the Scriptures, which confirms the Hebrew Scriptures in the NT and which establishes the NT by way of the Hebrew Scriptures: Therefore leaving us under no illusion that ALL Scripture is equal and sufficient; even today.
Your servant with the Glorious Gospel of Messiah to All the ends of the earth, for every creature, unto the glory of God Alone,
W
Richard P,
BTW have you read and studied, prayerfully HEBREWS 11, ROMANS 9-11 and GALATIANS in particular and then the also both Books of Hebrews and Romans?
In there you will find the fact that salvation has ALWAYS been by the promise of Messiah, since the Covenant of Redemption was established at the fall between YAHWEH and Adam and Eve and the promise of the Seed was given.
All the Hebrew OT saints where saved by grace Alone through the gift of Faith Alone which led to actions of Faith as we are called unto in the Book of James.
So the idea of the Church being superior or a complete replacement to Spiritual Israel (As opposed to National Israel), is pride and pure arrogance, as explained in the Romans especially. The Church IS Spiritual Israel; bth are the same and has never consistent of Any other Covenants; the Covenant of Grace and/or Redemption has been since the Fall the same and has operated the same and will continue to do the same. That is exactly what the LORD impressed upon JONAH who refused to be involved in spreading the Gospel to what he perceived as ungodly Gentiles in Nineveh.
We see the same truths proclaimed even in the MIDST of National Israel by the Prophets (Especially Jeremiah and Ezekiel 3; 18 and 33).
Why would they need to preach to THE ELECT or “CONVERTED”, if all you needed was to be a physical Jew or a balance of good Works?
We need to go back to the Books my friend, Covenants do not change. At least not in Scripture.
What changes is the hearts of men.
As to the HARDENING of HEARTS and the NT:
John 12:37-43
“But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, THAT THE WORD of Isaiah the prophet MIGHT BE FULFILLED, which he spoke:
“ Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?”[ Isaiah 53:1 ]
THEREFORE they COULD NOT believe, because Isaiah said again:
“ He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”[ Isaiah 6:10 ]
These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.”
It would seem that the Apostle and the Hebrew Scriptures are in DIRECT AGREEMENT and that the NT actually does not do away with the OT, but rather ESTABLISHES and FULFILLS the Hebrew Scriptures; again I encourage you to go back to the Entire Book off Scripture (As a SINGLE UNIT of many truth that stand forever) along with us.
Psalm 119:89
“[ לLAMED ] FOREVER, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven.”
Psalm 119:160
“The ENTIRETY of Your word is truth, And EVERY ONE of Your righteous judgments endures FOREVER.”
Isaiah 40:8
“The grass withers, the flower fades, But THE WORD OF OUR GOD STANDS FOREVER.””
1 Peter 1:23
“…having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, THROUGH THE WORD OF God WHICH LIVES AND ABIDES FOREVER…”
1 Peter 1:25
“But the word of the LORD ENDURES FOREVER.” Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.”
So what does change is our hearts and the judgements of God against people take His Word seriously.
His Word, Law and Person does not, nor does the Covenant he has made; for if that be the case He is made a liar and He ceases to exist as the Perfect One True Living Triune God: YAHWEH.
I have unashamed been grafted into the Wild Olive Tree and find that the Root of David and Jesse is my Root, the Messiah and Anointed One in whom alone Salvation is given:
Isaiah 12:2
“Behold, God is my salvation,
I will trust and not be afraid;
‘ For YAH, the LORD, is my strength and song;
He also has become my salvation.’”[ Exodus 15:2 ]
Your truly,
A Spiritual Israelite from the Nineveh type of Gentiles; who has had a heart of stone removed and a heart of flesh implanted by YAHWEH: The Father, Son and Spirit, Three-in-One, everlasting God, my Rock of Ages steadfast is He who has become my salvation.