Comments on: Why Membership Matters (Part 2) http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/ A Ministry of Shepherds' Fellowship Sun, 01 Mar 2009 19:54:00 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: donsands http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/comment-page-1/#comment-211629 donsands Wed, 27 Aug 2008 15:24:19 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/#comment-211629 Susan, Thanks for your response. "I agree card or no card." You can have loving genuine pastors & elders in a membership type church, who truly love the Lord and love His people. And you can have self-righteous types as well. And vis versa. For all of us, the essential focus is Christ. We need to set our eyes, and hearts upon Him. He must have "the preeminence" in all things, and so we must "set our affections on things above, not on things of the earth". And we need to submit ourselves to God's pastors & elders (Heb. 13:17), those who are genuine, called by God. We will know them by their fruit. The fruit is love. Love for Christ, for His Word, and for His Church. And even for our enemies Susan,
Thanks for your response. “I agree card or no card.”

You can have loving genuine pastors & elders in a membership type church, who truly love the Lord and love His people. And you can have self-righteous types as well. And vis versa.

For all of us, the essential focus is Christ. We need to set our eyes, and hearts upon Him. He must have “the preeminence” in all things, and so we must “set our affections on things above, not on things of the earth”.

And we need to submit ourselves to God’s pastors & elders (Heb. 13:17), those who are genuine, called by God. We will know them by their fruit. The fruit is love. Love for Christ, for His Word, and for His Church. And even for our enemies

]]> By: Susan http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/comment-page-1/#comment-211615 Susan Wed, 27 Aug 2008 14:57:55 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/#comment-211615 Hey Don, I would tell someone that this man made membership (sign a card, covenant etc) is not biblical, but there are reasons in the world we live that make things easier on everyone to have a list of their members. (However, still no excuse to then term it biblical). In the discussion, I would focus on the need to get to know people and commit oneself to them--card or no card. I would also praise my church (and Grace) for their care over me and their desire to follow Christ in this. If I could tell every pastor what it means that my precious pastors (and here they are 30ish!)care enough to call, email, and check on me and my daughter, they would never neglect it. Another friend came to salvation and was married to an unbeliever. They owned several fine hotels. She desired to be baptised and the one good church she was in told her she had to agree to the church covenant of membership which forbade her to sell or be a party to any sale of alcohol. Alas, she couldn't be baptised or join the church. Susan Hey Don, I would tell someone that this man made membership (sign a card, covenant etc) is not biblical, but there are reasons in the world we live that make things easier on everyone to have a list of their members. (However, still no excuse to then term it biblical). In the discussion, I would focus on the need to get to know people and commit oneself to them–card or no card. I would also praise my church (and Grace) for their care over me and their desire to follow Christ in this. If I could tell every pastor what it means that my precious pastors (and here they are 30ish!)care enough to call, email, and check on me and my daughter, they would never neglect it.

Another friend came to salvation and was married to an unbeliever. They owned several fine hotels. She desired to be baptised and the one good church she was in told her she had to agree to the church covenant of membership which forbade her to sell or be a party to any sale of alcohol. Alas, she couldn’t be baptised or join the church.
Susan

]]> By: Wake http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/comment-page-1/#comment-211496 Wake Wed, 27 Aug 2008 12:37:39 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/#comment-211496 Don and Steve Scott - good points, all. I guess I see this as someone who is (by God's grace) a faithful attender, supporter, and servant in a local assembly, though i am not a "member" there (in the man-made sense) because they require taking a covenant, which I cannot in good conscience do. I've discussed it with the elders and the result of our discussions is that they recognize there is no command in scripture requiring (or even allowing them to require, really) a covenant to consider someone a true member of the body, but they think it's a 'good thing' (imho liberal theology) so they aren't going to change that practice but are fine with (br)others attending and being involved that haven't signed the covenant but have (as I have) gone through the church doctrines class and been interviewed by the pastor and elders, given their testimony, etc. I think the entire situation just proves how ancillary (in the vestigial sense) having such a covenant is, but that's just me and I keep my opinion to myself. Don and Steve Scott – good points, all.

I guess I see this as someone who is (by God’s grace) a faithful attender, supporter, and servant in a local assembly, though i am not a “member” there (in the man-made sense) because they require taking a covenant, which I cannot in good conscience do. I’ve discussed it with the elders and the result of our discussions is that they recognize there is no command in scripture requiring (or even allowing them to require, really) a covenant to consider someone a true member of the body, but they think it’s a ‘good thing’ (imho liberal theology) so they aren’t going to change that practice but are fine with (br)others attending and being involved that haven’t signed the covenant but have (as I have) gone through the church doctrines class and been interviewed by the pastor and elders, given their testimony, etc. I think the entire situation just proves how ancillary (in the vestigial sense) having such a covenant is, but that’s just me and I keep my opinion to myself.

]]> By: donsands http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/comment-page-1/#comment-211439 donsands Wed, 27 Aug 2008 11:33:13 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/#comment-211439 And some members will be manifest to not be members. They will go out from us, because they were not of us. Many false disciples in the Church. I guess that's what I'm dealing with, when I look deep at my heart. I have seen many come to church, become members, say they are Christians, and then only to bear no fruit. But it may be years before they do. It's difficult for me to understand. Thanks for all the healthy dialog. And some members will be manifest to not be members. They will go out from us, because they were not of us.
Many false disciples in the Church.

I guess that’s what I’m dealing with, when I look deep at my heart.

I have seen many come to church, become members, say they are Christians, and then only to bear no fruit. But it may be years before they do.

It’s difficult for me to understand.

Thanks for all the healthy dialog.

]]> By: Steve Scott http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/comment-page-1/#comment-211207 Steve Scott Wed, 27 Aug 2008 05:51:11 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/#comment-211207 Don Sands: <i>"I’ve been a non-member church, and a membership church. Both have their problems. But the commitment to one another for the Gospel, and a particular group of believers gives a little more accountability."</i> I'd like to point out here that the argument is NOT so much about having a membership vs. not having a membership, but what actually constitutes membership. Saying a church does not have a formal membership is actually not quite correct. It simply does not have a "man-made" membership. Since the church is an "assembly", all those who "assemble" already are members according to Scripture. "Non-members" of churches are really members that are incorrectly labeled as such because those who set up man-made memberships don't realize that God has His own formal membership. Any Christian whom He has assemble with other believers in a church is an act of formal membership by God. "But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired." 1 Cor 12:18. What could possibly be more formal than something God does providentially? Let's recognize every assembled, Baptized Christian as aldready members of our churches, placed there by God just as He desired and we wouldn't have to be so confused. Don Sands: “I’ve been a non-member church, and a membership church. Both have their problems. But the commitment to one another for the Gospel, and a particular group of believers gives a little more accountability.”

I’d like to point out here that the argument is NOT so much about having a membership vs. not having a membership, but what actually constitutes membership. Saying a church does not have a formal membership is actually not quite correct. It simply does not have a “man-made” membership. Since the church is an “assembly”, all those who “assemble” already are members according to Scripture. “Non-members” of churches are really members that are incorrectly labeled as such because those who set up man-made memberships don’t realize that God has His own formal membership. Any Christian whom He has assemble with other believers in a church is an act of formal membership by God. “But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.” 1 Cor 12:18. What could possibly be more formal than something God does providentially? Let’s recognize every assembled, Baptized Christian as aldready members of our churches, placed there by God just as He desired and we wouldn’t have to be so confused.

]]> By: Truth Unites... and Divides http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/comment-page-1/#comment-211002 Truth Unites... and Divides Wed, 27 Aug 2008 00:53:51 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/#comment-211002 <b>Susan</b>: <i>"I believe more people would commit themselves if they in the least bit saw leadership be the example of commitment and caring over the souls of people. ... The fact is, too many people are never once called, never once spoken to by any leader, never once asked about their lives, and surely, those who are members see no shepherding over their lives."</i> Susan, in general I agree with you. In fact, I heartily agree with you. However, even if the pastors and elders don't entirely fulfill the responsibilities of their office to shepherd, protect, and feed the flock as they equip the flock (saints) for ministry, that doesn't mean that one doesn't have to be a committed member of a local church body. Pax. Susan: “I believe more people would commit themselves if they in the least bit saw leadership be the example of commitment and caring over the souls of people. … The fact is, too many people are never once called, never once spoken to by any leader, never once asked about their lives, and surely, those who are members see no shepherding over their lives.”

Susan, in general I agree with you. In fact, I heartily agree with you.

However, even if the pastors and elders don’t entirely fulfill the responsibilities of their office to shepherd, protect, and feed the flock as they equip the flock (saints) for ministry, that doesn’t mean that one doesn’t have to be a committed member of a local church body.

Pax.

]]> By: donsands http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/comment-page-1/#comment-210914 donsands Tue, 26 Aug 2008 22:50:21 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/#comment-210914 "But I could never tell someone to be a member so they can be shepherded…I haven’t seen that happen very often." Would you encourage someone to be a member of Grace Community in Sun Valley, and Crosspoint? “But I could never tell someone to be a member so they can be shepherded…I haven’t seen that happen very often.”

Would you encourage someone to be a member of Grace Community in Sun Valley, and Crosspoint?

]]> By: Susan http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/comment-page-1/#comment-210873 Susan Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:52:23 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/#comment-210873 I believe more people would commit themselves if they in the least bit saw leadership be the example of commitment and caring over the souls of people. Too many times the reason for membership is so that elders can shepherd souls. The fact is, too many people are never once called, never once spoken to by any leader, never once asked about their lives, and surely, those who are members see no shepherding over their lives. Ask around and see how many times pastors or elders called them to check on them, see what's going on, what are their prayer needs, etc. Even before membership...how many people are called by a leader and asked to come in and talk. It's usually some formal letter sent out to all visitors. In my Christian life there have been only two churches that truly cared for and shepherded my soul. Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, and the church I'm at now, Crosspoint Baptist Church in Baton Rouge. To have pastors after all this time actually call, email, and ask me how I'm doing (I'm a single mom with one daughter) and ask me if all is well has meant the world. Haven't had this since Grace when I was first saved. I've been through a terrible trial and my faith in my church nearly destroyed because of the complete breakdown in shepherding my soul (and my young daughter). Where were all these verses then? And there was zero call from my pastor or an elder to my child who had had the cruelest things done to her. Men who should have known better. As a member it was devastating. So, back to the first thing I said...when leaders start investing in people it will show and other people will see it in action. But I could never tell someone to be a member so they can be shepherded...I haven't seen that happen very often. I believe more people would commit themselves if they in the least bit saw leadership be the example of commitment and caring over the souls of people. Too many times the reason for membership is so that elders can shepherd souls. The fact is, too many people are never once called, never once spoken to by any leader, never once asked about their lives, and surely, those who are members see no shepherding over their lives. Ask around and see how many times pastors or elders called them to check on them, see what’s going on, what are their prayer needs, etc. Even before membership…how many people are called by a leader and asked to come in and talk. It’s usually some formal letter sent out to all visitors. In my Christian life there have been only two churches that truly cared for and shepherded my soul. Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, and the church I’m at now, Crosspoint Baptist Church in Baton Rouge. To have pastors after all this time actually call, email, and ask me how I’m doing (I’m a single mom with one daughter) and ask me if all is well has meant the world. Haven’t had this since Grace when I was first saved. I’ve been through a terrible trial and my faith in my church nearly destroyed because of the complete breakdown in shepherding my soul (and my young daughter). Where were all these verses then? And there was zero call from my pastor or an elder to my child who had had the cruelest things done to her. Men who should have known better. As a member it was devastating. So, back to the first thing I said…when leaders start investing in people it will show and other people will see it in action. But I could never tell someone to be a member so they can be shepherded…I haven’t seen that happen very often.

]]> By: donsands http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/comment-page-1/#comment-210872 donsands Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:51:08 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/#comment-210872 "is explicitly biblical" Meant to say: "Is not explicitly biblical" “is explicitly biblical” Meant to say: “Is not explicitly biblical”

]]> By: donsands http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/comment-page-1/#comment-210869 donsands Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:49:00 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/08/21/why-membership-matters-part-2-2/#comment-210869 Wake, you have a good conviction. Surely membership is explicitly biblical, but neither is it unbiblical. I lean toward a healthy commitment statement for the people of the Lord to agree on, and then have the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace take hold, though is it essential? No. I think it's better though. I've been a non-member church, and a membership church. Both have their problems. But the commitment to one another for the Gospel, and a particular group of believers gives a little more accountability. Go bless. Wake, you have a good conviction.

Surely membership is explicitly biblical, but neither is it unbiblical. I lean toward a healthy commitment statement for the people of the Lord to agree on, and then have the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace take hold, though is it essential? No.

I think it’s better though. I’ve been a non-member church, and a membership church. Both have their problems. But the commitment to one another for the Gospel, and a particular group of believers gives a little more accountability.

Go bless.

]]>