Back from Mars (Part 2)
July 11th, 2008
(By Nathan Williams)
My Visit to Mars Hill Bible Church (Part 2)
Yesterday I began telling about my experience of attending Mars Hill Bible Church in Grandville, MI., which is pastored by Rob Bell. Today, I’d like to finish that discussion by talking about the sermon that was preached while I was there.
Unfortunately, on the Sunday when I went Rob Bell wasn’t teaching. I guess he gets some time off during the summer to recover from his speaking tour and to prepare for his next one. Instead of having one guest preacher, we had two. I’ve never experienced tag team teachers, but it was certainly a unique approach.
The teachers for the morning were Don Perini and Jeanette Banashak. Both serve as professors at nearby Cornerstone University. Don is the assistant professor of youth ministry and also teaches creativity. Apparently a class on creativity is required for every student at Cornerstone. Jeanette serves as an instructor in youth ministry at Cornerstone and also recently began serving as an elder at Mars Hill. These two were specifically asked to speak on creativity because it is one of their specialties. They announced a couple of times during the message that they would be teaching a multi part class in the coming months at Mars Hill on creativity.
The dual teaching method creates an interesting dynamic. One person sits on a stool on stage while the other does his (or her) teaching. Instead of one person teaching the first part of the message and the other preaching the second half, they rotate several times throughout the message.
The title for the message the morning I was there was “A Journey to Unleash Your Creative Potential.”
Don began the morning by lamenting the fact that as we grow older we tend to play fewer games and be less creative. The busyness of life creeps in and we no longer take the time to play and imagine. Once Don finishes his introduction, Jeanette asks us to open to Matthew 28 and take a look at the great commission. She reminds us that we are supposed to be making disciples and baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. She makes the connection between the Trinity and the discipleship commanded in the great commission.
Then she asked us to flip over to Genesis 1. She noted that the first verb in the Bible is created and that obviously our God is a creative God. Since Genesis 1:26 tells us that we are made in the image of God, we must learn to be creative like God is creative. Then she explained that since God is a Trinity the Trinity must hold some clues as to how God is creative and therefore how we should be creative.
I mentioned in yesterday’s post that when we entered the worship center we were greeted with quotes on the overhead projectors. One of the main quotes that continued to cycle through as we waited for the “gathering” to start was a quote by Dorothy Sayers. After getting back home and doing some research I realized that much of the teaching on creativity and the Trinity comes from a book by Sayers called The Mind of the Maker. The entire message was based on the idea that every bit of human creativity resembles the Trinity. The creative idea we have is like God the Father, the action that we perform because of that idea is like the Son, and the influence and power of that creative idea is like the Holy Spirit.
Once Jeanette taught this background it was easy to see the shape the message would take. Jeanette taught the philosophy and theology (I use that term loosely) behind creativity and then Don gave us practical insight into becoming more creative. For example, after Jeanette taught on the idea of creativity and that being analogous to God the Father, Don taught on the top ten places for creative ideas to come to us. After the section dealing with Jesus and the creative idea being put into action, Don taught on several habits of creative people.
The ultimate point of the message was for us to learn to be creative and then use that creativity for something useful. The Sayers quote which they kept using throughout the lesson was “…that we may redeem the Fall by a creative act.” When one actually begins to break that down and think it through, it’s a scary thing to be teaching people. The point of the message was that we can use our creativity to redeem the fall. In other words, our world is in a rough situation. All of the pain and hardship in society comes as a result of the fall. We must use our creativity to fix the problems created by mankind’s fall into sin.
Sadly, throughout the message there was no mention of the gospel of Jesus Christ being what redeems men from the fall.
In the end, the tag-team talk consisted of little more than some vaguely inspiring teaching about using creativity to meet the physical and temporal needs of those in our community. Noticebly missing was the centrality of the gospel.
Needless to say, my trip to Mars Hill Bible Church confirmed in my mind what I have often heard said concerning much of the Emerging Church. This movement is really just old liberalism with cooler glasses and a penchant for mystery and postmodernism.
I must admit that I find the notion of a “post-modern” church a bit of a contradiction in terms. For example, the “founder” of Deconstructionalism, Jaques Derrida, was an atheist on the basis that religion needed to be absolute by definition, and, in his philosophy, there are no absolutes.
Can anyone enlighten me as how did they get from THAT to having “teachers” “teaching” on “creativity” (all of which are terms that necessitate an absolute basis)?
It’s just amazing: Let go of the Bible and there’s no telling in what pit you’ll wind up.
Next time you are in GR and want solid expository preaching, visit Maranatha Bible Church just a few minutes from Mars Hill.
Female elder (violation of 1 Tim 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-11), no Gospel proclaimed (violation of 1 Cor 1:17-18 and 2 Tim 4:1-2 among about 100 other scriptures), “sermons” based on a heretic’s teachings, but cool “cheap sunglasses.” and this is the wave of the future? Heaven help us!
Nathan,
It sounds like you went there with preconceived notions about what to expect and you weren’t disappointed. Now, I agree with you about the choice of Coldplay’s music (inappropriate) and the tag team sermon on creativity (what?) but don’t you think three pieces of paper on a chair shouldn’t be taken as anything more than three pieces of paper with announcements or for note-taking? You also seem to be hung up on whether a church service is called a “service” or a “gathering”, as if either term is more biblical than the other.
And, please, enough abut the “cool glasses” already!
Sad
Grievously sad.
Why does any movement want to call itself Christian when it has removed the centrality of the cross?
I so fear for our youth. What are the young to do when most adult Christians do not even know what they believe or why.
I ask you men who are called by God to preach the Gospel this question:
Would you want to stand before God and give an account of why you made little of the cross of Christ?
It makes me shudder!
It could bring one to despair for the future of Christ’s Church–Except for that mighty doctrine of the Sovereignty of God!
The gates of hell will not prevail!
The ultimate point of the message was for us to learn to be creative and then use that creativity for something useful. The Sayers quote which they kept using throughout the lesson was “…that we may redeem the Fall by a creative act.” When one actually begins to break that down and think it through, it’s a scary thing to be teaching people. The point of the message was that we can use our creativity to redeem the fall. In other words, our world is in a rough situation. All of the pain and hardship in society comes as a result of the fall. We must use our creativity to fix the problems created by mankind’s fall into sin.
Maybe they ought to consider bringing Rick Warren in as the finale with his creative P.E.A.C.E. plan!
R U Kidding me???
Boy, this is man made religion if I ever saw one…
I have been wondering how successful the emerging church would if persecution were to come through? Maybe they should try the great commission in China and North Korea and see if this creativity can help ppl stand with the Lord when their life is on the line.
But I often feel rebuked by the Spirit when my pride comes into play thinking about the emerging church. My heart goes out to these people, where would any of us be without solid Bible teaching? I know I wasn’t much better before I really started to get some meat, instead of milk and I know it wasn’t by my doing that I got exposed to such great teaching.
What were the three colored cards?!?!?!
Jesse
When I was 19, I had the opportunity to travel with a music group through every state east of Texas, for 4 years. Each Sunday we simply grabbed the yellow pages and looked up a church, selected one at ‘random’, and went for it!
After 4 years it occured to me that faith healers and other kinds of money-stealing preachers would make their headquarters in any place eastward. Very few would make California their home - its much easier to fool people the further east you go, and the further south-east you go.
My only point is that while I am deeply concerned about preachers who teach ‘peace, peace, when there is no peace,’ I am even more concerned about the common church-goer.
I don’t want to say that the further east you go, the more gullible people can be, but it really seems that way to me. Nancy Pearcey made a great case for that in “Total Truth,” and I generally agree. So, who do we pray for? The erring preachers, or the erring audience? I personally find it very disturbing.
Jesse,
I knew someone would ask and I realized I had forgotten to mention them after the article was finished. My bad.
When we got to the first point in the message we were instructed to take out the blue card and write three words on it, Father, Thought, and Idea. Then as we made our way through the teaching on God the Father being like the creative idea and thought, we were told to write down what we wanted our creative endeavor to be. Then for the discussion on putting our creative idea into action, we pulled out the red card and wrote Activity, Express, and Son. For the third card we wrote Power, Influence and Spirit. They also had us write other personal application thoughts down on the cards. Nothing super fancy…just a “creative” way to take notes I suppose. It just looked very artsy when I first walked in the door and every chair had three different colored pieces of paper on it. Not knowing what to expect I thought maybe we were going to make some origami that resembled Rob Bell or something…
NW
Jim K,
Before I traveled to Michigan I had someone tell me about your pastor, Todd Dykstra and recommend that I go to church at Maranatha. I would love to have attended and if I am in the area again will definitely make it a point to visit. The man that told me about your church and pastor was in the same D.Min class at TMS as your pastor. His name is Bryan Ferrell and he’s the pastor of Timberlake Baptist in Lynchburg, VA. He spoke very highly of Todd and the ministry you all have there in Rob Bell’s backyard!
NW
First thank you for this report. My Immediate answer for “what do we do is”? Is Lift Jesus the Christ Higher! Preach the Word of God, in season and out.Plant churches that do. As Paul Washer says “many of the Churches we call churches are brick buildings with nice lawns ,but their lamp stands have been removed.”
Support yours if it does! Work while it is still day,(dusk?) Live and give out the truth.These heresys are promised by Jesus.John 14:6 and all the others verses are not negotiable. Or changeable.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
We have a conference coming to miami county ohio in october with Brain Mclaren and 2-3 other author, teachers.My fear is that many if not most of the Christian churches ( Christians) are unprepared and vulnerable.Some churches have connection with this church through other type ministrys ( money management and so forth)Here is the link to that church and the Blog.
http://ginghamsburg.org/
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
“I don’t want to say that the further east you go, the more gullible people can be, but it really seems that way to me.”
Really? I had no idea! That makes complete sense!
(c;
-Paul
Was the Gospel ever given in any form during the service? Seems pretty ironic that “Mars Hill Bible Church” really has nothing to do with the Bible and isn’t really a church! When any so-called church leaves the Gospel behind in favor of “redeeming the culture”, that organization is no longer a church. They are a social club at best and apostate heretics leading people straight to hell at worst. Thanks for this report. I’ve never attended a service at an Emerging “Church”. I’ve just heard stories and this further clarifies that real danger in this movement. I guess I’m just not into creativity. I prefer to do things the way those before me has done them. Just given me the batton passed down from Paul to Timothy and on down the line and I’ll be fine.
I discovered a great Bible-teaching church when I was visiting in Grand Rapids last month. It meets in a (packed!) gym at a school on 36th Street, just west of US131 while its new facility is being built. It is called Harvest Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Pastor Dale Van Dyke preached boldly from Hebrews, and I was so thankful to have been there.
To be honest, I’m underwhelmed by Mars Hill and by Bell — almost as much as by the idea that one Sunday at one fellowship (at which the pastor wasn’t even present) would confirm in your mind what others have said about “much of the Emerging church”.
Brendt,
I’m sorry you are “underwhelmed” by Mars Hill. Perhaps that is an appropriate reaction since my intent with these articles was neither shock nor awe. My goal was to accurately recount what happened when I attended for those who don’t have the opportunity to attend. I have read much by those in the Emerging Church and by those outside the movement critiquing it. I had a picture of what the church would be like based on the information I have been exposed to and since this is one of the leading churches in the movement I think it is perfectly legitimate to have my suspicions confirmed by my attending their church.I didn’t say I came up with my ideas about the emerging church based on one visit. I only had those ideas confirmed.
NW
Nathan - Thanks for writing these, I’ve always wanted to visit Mars but haven’t been able to yet so it was nice to read about one of the services.
The Sayers’ quote is one I’ve come across in Leland Ryken’s anthology The Christian Imagination. I think the basic concept is that we can bring a sense of beauty and wonder to a broken world through the use of our creativity. And I think we should all be able to agree on that. I think you even see that biblically with the aesthetically-pleasing instructions for the Temple that were given to Moses. Schaeffer argues in his book on Christians and art that the chief value of designing it in that way was not utilitarian but aesthetic. And on a personal level can’t you relate to that? If you’re married, what happens when you hear a song that was played at your wedding or perhaps the first song you and your wife danced to at the reception? I think art can be a small light in a dark room, and therefore, in a sense is bringing redemption to a dark world. Is it salvific for individuals? No, but I don’t think that means it isn’t redemptive. I dunno that I’d present the talk as they did (I’ve looked through the outline and listened to parts) if I were in their spot because I think every sermon should connect the text to Jesus and point people to Jesus. But I think it is a really interesting idea and I appreciate the heart behind it, even if I don’t fully agree with the application.
Nathan,
How would you say that Mars Hill differed from the typical seeker-sensitive/church growth paradigm church?
The ultimate point of the message was for us to learn to be creative and then use that creativity for something useful. The Sayers quote which they kept using throughout the lesson was “…that we may redeem the Fall by a creative act.” When one actually begins to break that down and think it through, it’s a scary thing to be teaching people.
You got that right.
The doctrine of creativity. How… creatiave.
Well Nathan it may have not shocked me because I have heard Rob Bell’s hazy Nooma videos and have read stuff he has written, and after that conference he went to where he called the dalai lama “His Holiness” nothing would surprise me much but it did make me cringe to read Scripture being used in such a way and that last part about redeeming creation with our creativity? wow that was awful.
The problem is he’s the pastor of that flock and when you allow bad teaching like that in your church it’s because you either agree with it and approve of it or you didn’t know what was going to be preached on or taught that day by those people.
The fearful thing is that teachers/preachers will be judged more harshly, so we must pray always always for our pastors and leaders and for the rest of the congregation.
God bless!
“The point of the message was that we can use our creativity to redeem the fall.”
If Jesus is the redeemer of the fallen world and Jesus is God, isn’t this message really teaching us that we “can be like God”?
Where have we heard that before?
Brendt & Michael,
Perhaps a better way to put it is like this:
Nothing I saw or heard at Mars Hill did anything to change my opinion about the EC movement in general and Mars Hill in particular.
I love the title of this post. As far as your experience, I wish I were surprised. Kinda leaves me squinty-eyed-”Huh?”-speechless, but sadly not surprised.
As someone with a real heart for young people I just pray we stop and realize that this kind of postliberalism and its repainted social gospel is crippling the faith of an entire generation.
Rob Bell is an icon around which youth ministers and youth pastors gather. The bottom line is men like Rob Bell, not unlike Mormon Missionaries use evangelical language but its filled with different meanings.
My point is Bell’s philosophies are being spread throughout evangelicalism. I for one am glad to see Nathan present for this audience a very balanced perspective of what some of us saw a long time ago.
In my opinion he is to be commended in the Lord.
It doesn’t seem fair to judge a church based on a visit to one service, during the summer at that, when lots of the regular staff will be on break.
In the business world, we talk about doing “due diligence” prior to transacting a major business event, e. g. an acquisition, or other major purchase. This typically involves putting the buyer’s employees inside the potential acquisition, digging into their accounting records, their HR records, their legal records, talking with the people, getting to know the key employees, etc. Depending on the stakes, this can sometimes take upwards of a year to perform.
The stakes here are eternal. One visit doesn’t really seem like “due diligence” in the light of that perspective. Do you plan to expand your investigation? I think you would have more credibility if you did.
…and by those outside the movement critiquing it.
Most of whom have been to exactly one less EC service than you, so I gotta give you credit for that.
Unfortunately, half those points get deducted for taking them too seriously.
…since this is one of the leading churches in the movement…
According to …. ?
Miriam -
I’m not so sure going back to Bell’s church is really necessary. The church played coldplay before worship and didn’t preach the Gospel once in the service. They aren’t a church. If one doesn’t preach the Gospel, that Biblically disqualifies it from being called a “church”. This is a mere social gospel, feel good club on steroids!
I think Bell said it best in his own words in an article I read, which you can find here:http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/november/12.36.html?start=1 He said, “This is not just the same old message with new methods. “We’re rediscovering Christianity as an Eastern religion, as a way of life. Legal metaphors for faith don’t deliver a way of life. We grew up in churches where people knew the nine verses why we don’t speak in tongues, but had never experienced the overwhelming presence of God.”
Frankly, Eastern religions and Christianity don’t mix at all. In that same article, Brian McLaren, another popular leader in the movement, said, “I don’t think we’ve got the gospel right yet. What does it mean to be ’saved’? When I read the Bible, I don’t see it meaning, ‘I’m going to heaven after I die.’
Frankly, if the Gospel is not about going to Heaven when I die, then I’m believing a lie because that’s what my Bible declares to be true. These guys have condemned themselves as heretics by their own false gospels in the words they have spoken. This is why this movement is so dangerous. They are modern examples of those who have “crept in unawares” that Jude talks about.
I am not convinced that you can truly know a person’s heart without getting to know them personally. Neither am I convinced that you can truly know the heart of a church without doing a little more due diligence than attending one service, reading some print media (and a few people’s biased mis-interpretations of it), and then trying to “guilt” by association.
I’ve heard Rob Bell speak several times, seen several NOOMA vids, and read several of his books, as well as the CT article. I’ve received the exact opposite impression about Rob that you have from an isolated article in CT, some hazy association with Brian McLaren, and a visit to one service. Who’s right?
I won’t go so far as to say that I am, because I don’t feel that I’ve performed anywhere close to the proper amount of due diligence. On the other hand, it is completely irresponsible to criticize a fellow Christian without doing a little more due diligence than has been done here.
Furthermore, as a thinking, well-educated Christian, I think it’s fair to expect my leaders to support their assertions with something more than the flimsy evidence you would have me accept, and I don’t think I’m an exception. Church-goers today are a lot more sophisticated than that.
All I’m saying is if you desire more credibility, if you want to increase your influence, you need to shore up the arguments with a much higher quality of evidence.
I will agree that that kind of teaching should not exactly be taught as a sermon but in a separate class altogether.The Gospel is what is central and is in need of being taught.The Word Of God is in need of being taught to people.Following Jesus Christ in every facet of life is what needs to be taught to people.
Miriam, what he got at Mars Hill is typical of Rob Bell and his church. Check out Ken Silva’s Apprising Ministries, he’s done extensive research on Rob Bell and Mars Hill, Rob Bell is just a wannabe actor, whose uses his talents and skills to cleverly deceive millions. I personally am not captivated or bewitched or entranced by him or his Nooma videos. He’s just a really good actor, that’s what he wanted to be and he found his stage and people pay to see his one man show.
I am still looking for good, solid evidence. Ken Silva is not a credible witness, and nothing I’ve seen here is up to the Biblical standard of evidentiary support for accusing and convicting someone.
Let’s face it, something in Rob’s message is drawing thousands. If it’s truly not the Holy Spirit, then we ought to be able to gather better evidence than what has been offered here.
Janet, did he preach boldly about infant baptism too at Harvest?
Miriam, the mormon church is huge and growing. By your argument, it must be God that’s causing it to grow as it does.
Miriam,
I’m not sure that you have the credibility to decide who should or shouldn’t be a credible witness. I’m going to need to see some evidence of how much research you have done on what makes someone credible.
Tom
Miriam,
“Ken Silva is not a credible witness,…” Fair enough.
But there are many others out there. For example, you can Google Greg Gilbert of 9 Marks who did a 3-part series on Bell’s Nooma videos.
And then there’s Casey Freswick who did a very thorough 2 part expose of Bell’s “Velvet Elvis.” I would venture to say they’re both “credible,” as is Nathan, who is an eyewitness here.
As someone who’s family lives in the area and actually attended Mars Hill, I can attest to it being nothing more than a giant social club that stopped preaching the Word of God in favor of tickling the ears of the locals.
The West Michigan area was ripe for this type of movement. The Reform church is gigantic here and does nothing in the way of preparing souls for eternity. All that has happened is that the pendulum has swung from overt legalism to overt liberalism. Neither teaches salvation correctly, nor do they put the Word of God and its teaching as the greatest importance.
It’s a travesty.
It’s ungodly.
Those in leadership will have to answer for what they have done in the name of God. I pray they realize their mistake before it’s too late.
As a thinking, well-educated Christian, I expect a higher quality of evidence than what I’ve seen on the internet, and I don’t think I’m an exception. It’s all pretty subjective, a few impressions from attending a service or two, someone’s re-hash of another imperfect human’s interpretation of an article in CT, and there’s lots of anecdotal data, for whatever that’s worth. Sure, anyone can question MY credibility in rejecting this evidence, but if lots of people ARE rejecting the evidence, or worse, completely ignoring it, as is more often the case, then you lose your platform of influence.
I’m looking for more objective data. For example, I’d like to see a well-researched study of a reasonable sample of the converts from Rob Bell’s ministry. Has anyone done anything like that? Are lives truly being transformed by Jesus Christ? Are they bearing good fruit in turn? An unbiased, empirical study like that would carry a lot more weight.
Jesus teaches in Matthew 7 that many will claim to have done good works (miracles, even) in His name, but in the final judgment He will reject them because they were not true Christ-followers. Well, that certainly makes discernment difficult, doesn’t it? But there are some things that only God can do. Only God can engender true repentance, cause people to turn from their sin to Him, to convict of sin and righteousness (I must give credit to Henry Blackaby for that thought). So if people are clearly TRULY repenting and turning to God in a ministry, it’s pretty safe to conclude that the Holy Spirit is working through that ministry.
Another method might be to actually embed in one of these ministries for at least a year, get to know the congregants, the leaders, see if God is really working in that ministry or not. While less objective than the method above, such an exercise would carry tremendous weight. I just don’t see how a reasonable person can come to any conclusions on anything less, sorry, and again, I don’t think I’m an exception.
It is surely devisive, the new creativity. I beleive you cannot get more creative than have your Son die on a cross then rise from the dead to open (or close) the doors of death to LIFE eternal as you trust in Him, the Lord Jesus for all He HAS CREATED (COL 1), done. Wow, the message of the gospel,it has always been so simple. Thank you Lord Jesus.
i appreciate this conversation very much. i am 27 and am growing up in a time of “post-modern” influence. i see value in it, but there is obviously much that is concerning.
what i will say is that the writer of this article seems to view church through very american eyes. all of the descriptions of appearance were not at all shocking to me, and it almost completely turned me off to hearing what the writer had to say. to be judgmental about the appearance is completely ridiculous to me.
the fact is that Jesus Christ did come as a the poor son of a carpenter, and lived as a homeless rabbi. he stayed with whoever would take him in. he says himself that he had no place to lay his head and that those who follow him would not either. we miss this in america and i think the writer of this article has missed it as well.
instead of approaching this community of people (Mars Hill) with humility and a willingness to see if Christ is being exalted, you went in with pre-conceived notions that left no room for change. i find that disheartening.
while you don’t agree with most of the things that come out of these people you seem to despise, we are indeed a community born of the living Christ. we should love (yes love) as though that were true.
Well Miriam, why don’t you go to Mars Hill and investigate and evaluate for yourself what is happening there, then maybe you will be satisfied. And to say that those who visited Mars Hill did not have humility and had preconceived notions is a little presumptuous and judgemental. They were just calling it as they saw it. Ken Silve and others have done extensive research into the worldview, ideologies and theology of many in the ECM/postmodern movement. Where are we told to love false teachers and heretics? I believe we ought to expose and warn others. The character of deception is just that, to deceive. People flock to Rob Bell because he is the Postmodern Poster Child, a Rock Star of the movement. Have you guys read Velvit Elvis, or watched numerous Nooma videos and evaluated through the word of God whether or not they are biblical or sound? We wanted to know about the other side of the fence, so we went to a seeker church, went through Rick Warren materials listened to seeds of ECM being planted into the hearts of the unsuspecting, we wanted to listen and ask questions and consider, we did that for 2 years, now if we had preconceived notions and ideas we would not have stayed. We listened to Arminian thought for those 2 years. When you come to pulpit magazine, you come to a place where men gifted by God, whom love Him and His Word more than anything, test the spirits to see if they are true. We don’t trust Rob Bell as far as we can throw him. He is gathering a crowd, but vultures also gather around a dead body! According to Psalm 1 we should not even consider someone as Bell. He’s a one man show, you have to pay to see him, he stands in the round with a sharpie and no notes, so what? He wanted to be an actor, he can memorize and mesmerize with his clever, seemingly knowledgable presentation, wow, he is awesome, he can name all the ceasars and then tell us how we had it all wrong all this time, but we have him to clear it up for us. Those who visited have a right to form any opinion they want of the church, just because it was just like they thought, just proves, they went in with an accurate view of God and the Word of God and had the spiritual discernment to separate the truth from error. They formed their opinions from reading his books and Nooma and reading others who have done the research. So, form your own opinion by going yourself and analyzing and researching yourself. You know that Rob Bell is almost or is on the edge of Universalism, and his constant referrel to Jesus as a Rabbi and Jewish elements is just part of the Rob Bell scheme to move naive people away from the truth that Jesus Christ is the son of God, the saviour of the world, who died a substitutionary death for those who would believe in him. It’s kind of arrogant of the postmodern people to think that they are here at this time to tell us all how we have it all wrong. American eyes. These guys at pulpit are scholars, greek, hebrew, OT/NT, some have been to Israel and studied there, some are probably Christian Jews. Rob Bell knows that this generation is lofty and rejects the authority of anyone older than 40, won’t be wise and listen to those who have walked with God for many years. He’s appealing to your youth, your rebellion, your assumption that your generation knows the secrets of the Universe, and that God had been waiting to reveal it to the postmodern generation. Hurry up, see if he’s right or wrong and move on. I did my homework and so has Nathan and Ken and others, and this is our conclusion, you will only vacillate if you are struggling with wanting to believe their pie in the sky views.
Dear Nathan,
Thanks so much for recording and reporting what you saw and witnessed at Rob Bell’s church. I’ve learned much from your 2-part blog posts. And what you’ve done is more than just reading the writings or watching the videos of postmodern Emergers. As Ken Silva said, you are to be commended and praised!
Furthermore, with regards to notions about the validity of critiques from those inside a movement versus those outside a movement, it’s not all that persuasive a concern. One, do I have to be a drug addict to have the credibility that drugs are bad for you? Do I have to be a homosexual to say that Scripture declares that same-sex behavior is a sin?
Secondly, so suppose someone was a former “insider” of a movement. What I have seen is this from those still on the inside is this: “That guy/gal is just an embittered person. S/he has no crediblity.”
So even an ex-insider has no credibility with those who are so willing to dismiss any constructive criticisms of the movement that they’ve wedded themselves to.
I appreciate all the passion that’s been expressed here, and in fact, I do think Nathan Williams presented a fairly un-biased account of what he witnessed.
The stakes here are eternal. We have a responsibility to our Leader, Jesus Christ, to make sure that what we are spreading around is true, factual, and un-biased. I challenge everyone who reads this to practice and demand journalistic integrity everywhere on the internet, especially on Christian blogs.
If Rob Bell is indeed as bad as you all believe, then it shouldn’t be that difficult to gather the empirical data to support that conclusion, in which case your position would be greatly strengthened and more people might listen to you. On the other hand, if the empirical data shows you are wrong, I would hope you would be gracious enough to stop being critical.
Either way, I, for one, will continue to reject the extremely subjective data that passes for “evidence” in the blogosphere, perform my own due diligence, and continue the quest for “weightier” evidence.
In parting, I simply can’t resist pointing out that even within this limited exchange, I was at least twice accused of saying something someone else had posted; I was misquoted several times; I lost track of the number of times my words were taken out of context; and my point was completely misunderstood by at least 5 different people. I rest my case!
Peace out,
Miriam J. Nard
Obviously, you are evaluating Rob Bell by your own subjective worldview and limited knowledge of Biblical doctrines and theology. If you could read Bell and watch his Nooma video’s and not “think” anything is wrong with it, then you have a different theological lens you are filtering through. If you want Rob Bell to just come out and say “I’m a Universalist” this will not happen, it is the nature of postmodernist’s to be ambiguous, to not make solid statements with clarity, they don’t believe in clarity. You of all people seem to stand on absolute clarity and solid evidence. In my last post, I was addressing you and Dave. It seems you are more gracious to condidering Bell, even though all you have done is read his material and them come to your own conclusion he is ok, then judge, that everyone else must be wrong, so who is being subjective? Look, the bottom line is that Rob Bell is preaching another gospel, it may look the same, sound the same, feel the same, but it is not, see Galatians. Use the Word of God as the standard. You have to have an accurate view of God and the Word of God, we can use the Word of God to draw conclusions, we have the Holy Spirit, we have gifted and Godly men whom the Lord had raised up to guide us and warn us and keep us wolves in sheeps clothing, whom the Bible says, will creep in unnoticed. False prophets are clever and charming and charasmatic, it shrouds their deceptions, they will only slowly distribute their poison. You can find testimonies of those who live in Grand Rapids that know of the ministry because they are in the area and know those who go there, testimonies of those who know Bell or knew him in college and who used to go to Mars Hill. Bell has made clear statements that give credibility to beliefs and practices of other religions and that they can be incorporated into the Church. He is an egalitarian, he has women elders. There is nothing wrong and as a matter of fact is Biblical to judge and discern what those who call themselves teachers are teaching. Rob Bell is not above critiquing. The ECM is not gracious, they are judgemental, they mock and scoff at those who don’t agree with them. Where are we told in the Bible to tolerate or consider or be gracious to or love false teachers, heretics and false apostles? Is drawing huge crowds, having a tour, writing books, one man show video empirical, objective data to you? Oh, I did not see anything wrong, I need some solid evidence.
Really, you can dish it out, but can’t take it Miriam.
Go to your Pastor and Elders, give them copies of Bell’s books and video’s, ask them what they think. Will you listen to the wisdom and council of those God has put in your life, you are under them for your protection. In the movement they don’t just drop the bomb on you, they offer doubt and new ideas little by little, they put questions in your mind, that make you think, you have had it wrong all along. You are intellegent Miriam, go research something called the hegelian dialect, something used by Brian McLaren and others to bring about a change in thinking. Is Jesus just a good Jewish Rabbi to follow in his footsteps, or is He the Son of God, is His gospel a social gospel, that tells a story to illustrate how we can change the world, or is it the good news, that the God of all creation condescended to this vile world to save sinners like us, to redeem us, transform us, make us saints? Does Bell teach this or not? Who’s getting the glory, who’s drawing crowds, who’s making disciples? In the upcoming election Miriam you will have to make a decision whom you will vote for, you will not have solid evidence on these men, you only have what they have said, what the media has exposed, you will just have to believe or not believe their statements, and judge them by their statements as well. We have to get past the charisma and eloquence and outward appearances and the crowds they draw, to really try to discern and get a revelation of what their real character and agenda is. I think if objective, empirical data came out on either canditate that they were lying or deceiving, those who follow them and have commited to them will continue to support “their candidate.” And, well, you know, forgive them and justify them, even though they have the evidence the man is a liar. It happens all the time. It really is ok to be intolerant and critical of those who are leading astray.
Just one more thing. I have been critical of another guy Mark Driscoll, but there are folks here at Pulpit who would defend him and challenge me, but he is not a false teacher on the edge of heresy as Bell.
this comment concerns me: “this kind of postliberalism and its repainted social gospel is crippling the faith of an entire generation (ken silva).”
i will say that i got much more serious about my faith in Christ after reading Velvet Elvis. now, i attend Gordon-Conwell in Boston (a very conservative/Reformed seminary), and while i don’t always agree with Reformed theology, I can see the value in it.
i think these broad strokes that people paint about Bell as a false teacher, post-liberal and so on are a bit unfair.
this is far from the social gospel of rauschenbusch. i have heard Bell exalt Christ on many an occasion.
i’m with you miriam. thank you for your depth and your encouragement to seek out truth more fully, rather than throwing out subjective judgments based on a lack of evidence.
All,
Dale Van Dyke wrote a great article about “Velvet Elvis” called ‘Jumping Off the Mark:A Response to Rob Bell’s Velvet Elvis’. It is a great resource written by a pastor in the area that Rob Bell ministers in. It is very fair and very helpful.
karie,
it think you were a bit harsh on your comment there. miriam has been very gracious and has tried to get the people who are commenting to have the same attitude.
“you can dish it out, but you can’t take it.” come on. she has not shown one sign of not being able to take it. this is a civil discussion and i believe that miriam sounds very educated. whether she and i look at this through a different lens then you may be the issue, but please do not question someone elses intelligence or objectivity because you disagree.
slandering fellow believers is an awful thing and i can’t stand it. we affirm that we should love our enemies and neighbors as ourselves, let’s try to show that in the way we discuss these matters with each other.
peace
http://podcast.wayofthemasterradio.com/audio/podcasts/0708/WOTMR-07-01-08-Hour2.mp3
Excerpt of John MacArthur on false teachers on the Way of the Master with Todd Friel.
Again: THE WORD OF GOD IS OUR STANDARD FOR JUDGEMENT OF ALL THOSE WHO PROFESS TO BE TEACHERS OF THE WORD OF GOD.
WHAT DOES THE WORD OF GOD SAY ABOUT FALSE TEACHERS, HERETICS AND APOSTATES. HAVE YOU READ THE BOOK OF GALATIANS. WE ARE TO REJECT ANYONE WHO BRINGS ANOTHER GOSPEL. ACTUALLY PAUL SAY TWICE, LET THEM BE ANATHEMA, ACCURSED, THAT DOES NOT SOUND SO LOVING AND GRACIOUS TO ME. THIS IS ABOUT ROB BELL, AND HE IS NOT SOMEONE TO FOLLOW OR CONSIDER OR ENTERTAIN HIS IDEAS FOR A MINUTE. DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE BELIEVES ABOUT THE BIBLE, GOD, THE END TIMES, SALVATION, WHAT ABOUT HELL, WHO CHRIST IS AND WHY HE CAME? THERE WAS A WELL KNOWN HIGH PROFILE PASTOR IN TULSA, CARLTON PEARSON, HIGHER DIMENSIONS CHURCH (ACTUALLY WE LIVED JUST AROUND THE CORNER FROM “HIGHER D” WHEN THIS HAPPENED. HE JUST CAME OUT ONE DAY AND SAID HE BELIEVED IN THE INCLUSION, A UNIVERSALIST. LITTLE BY LITTLE, SERMON BY SERMON HE WOULD SPRINKLE THE POISON ON HIS SERMONS. THEN WHEN THE BOMB DROPPED, HE LOST HALF HIS CHURCH. YOU CAN READ ABOUT THAT. If any of those who were having red flags pop of about 2 years before that has his messages started to change and then shared that with another member, they would have defended Pearson to the death, No, No, you are taking him out of context, he could never mean that, you are misunderstanding him, he is a godly pastor. But, he could not take it anymore, he could not tell people that they would go to Hell or that only some will go to Heaven. Carlton Pearson was a very respected well known Pastor, thousands attended that church, I know, we could not hardly get home or to Walmart for the traffic coming out of Higher D. He was a wolf in sheeps clothing and hundreds of men, women, boys and girls were devastated and could not believe that their beloved Pastor was actually an heretic. This is a serious topic. The more time we spend in God’s word, the more we hear His voice, true sheep can only follow the True Shepherd, they will not follow the voice of another.
Rob Bell is uses familiar sounding terminology, but the meanings and definitions are different. Like Mormons, they sound just like real Christians, but they are not.
It’s a different Jesus and a different Gospel and again Paul says “Let them be Accursed.” Yes, those clean cut, suit wearing young men, accursed. Rob Bell’s take on scripture in line with NT Wright. It has been taken off the website I believe, but under what we believe about the Bible, was NT Wright’s views on scripture. If you can’t see a plethora of problems with Bell’s views, then all I can assume, is that you are not using the Word of God as the standard of judging teachers, that maybe an underdeveloped sense of discernment is lacking, or that you have just listened to and taken into consideration his views. The Bible warns about listening to those who bring doubt and confusion and listening to them. Psalm 1.
My statement about underdeveloped sense of discernment is not meant to be an insult. It is only gained by staying in the Word, sitting under men of integrity and wisdom and character who have a true love for the glory of God and His Word. The Bible does say that men would accumulate teachers after themselves that would be ear ticklers. The plumbline is the word of God, not our intellegence, not our opinions, not our feelings, not hearsay, not charisma, good looks, hipness, coolness, charm, cleverness, humor, eloquence, large crowds, books, tapes, seminars. Again, you guys need to go to your own Pastors and Elders and other mature believers you know personally and ask them to look over Bell’s materials carefully, watch a couple Nooma’s with them, have a pencil and paper and write down what he did not say. Also, you may want to visit Mars Hill on you vacation or write Bell and ask him. You may want to read Truth Wars by MacArthur. There are many ways we all can be better at keeping ourselves alert to error. You hate slander, I hate those who slander and doubt and bring into question the validity of the Word of God. Maybe you have done all this and still can’t fathom to think their is a problem with Bell’s ministry, so be it. This is not about who can be the most articulate, or have the most compelling arguments or slandering or insulting someone’s intellegence. I hope you get the concrete evidence you desire, but then again, will you believe it?
It doesn’t surprise me that Don Perini would not use the Bible or include the gospel much. I had him for a youth ministry leadership class at Cornerstone and we looked at the Bible for 2 classes and then read business leadership books and played games like using the three pieces of paper the rest of the semester. I have an old tape of Rob Bell preaching where he tells his listeners to beware of the preachers who are really popular and have posters in Christian bookstores. It is sad how people with good intentions can get wrapped up in themselves and led astray. We are all vulnerable to it.
Peace
One more thing,
It is also sad that Rob Bell does not mention or thank Calvary Church in Grand Rapids, MI for giving him a great start. Calvary is a huge affluent church; the pastor brought Rob on stage the week before he was going to start and told the church to support him and that 1,000 people should go with him to start Mars Hill. I haven’t seen or heard him publicly thank Calvary.
Peace
In answer to the mention of numbers #s being a deciding factor or evidence of the Holy Spirit in Rob Bell’s ministry? the two largest and growing cults in America that both deny Jesus Christ’s Deity and His Gospel are Huge!Jesus Christ’s Truth and Words ..Jesus Christ Is central and the Cross in a Christian Church that preachs God’s Holy Word. The resurrected Lord.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
IS This What Is Taught? In the Emergent Church?
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Forgive the need to edit from above to clarify I hope.
I am 59 yrs.old. and I have not been to any of the fullblown (though some here seem tainted) EC services admittedly. However I have not been to any Mormon services either and yet when I had their missionaries in my Home 3 different years and looked and compared the book of mormon I new it was not inspired and contradicted Gods Word .
In answer to the mention By A previous Commentor* of numbers #s! being a deciding factor or evidence of the Holy Spirit in Rob Bell’s ministry? the two largest and growing cults in America that both deny Jesus Christ’s Deity and His Gospel are Huge!
This just reinforces that people think the “experience” “feeling” of the environment is equal or reliable as scripture.It never is. Jesus told satan “Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”
Jesus Christ’s Truth and Words ..Jesus Christ Is central and the Cross in a Christian Church that preachs God’s Holy Word. The resurrected Lord.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
IS This What Is Taught? In the Emergent Church?
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
“this comment concerns me: ‘this kind of postliberalism and its repainted social gospel is crippling the faith of an entire generation (ken silva)’… this is far from the social gospel of rauschenbusch. i have heard Bell exalt Christ on many an occasion.”
Well dave, since you chose to bring me back into this discussion which I have done my best to pretty much stay out of let me put it this way. This the kind of comment that concerns me specifically because I have a real heart for young people.
Friend you’re in seminary and yet you appear to think just because someone speaks well of Christ this makes them a true teacher. Make the time to read Rauschenbusch and you’ll also see him “exalt Christ” in his own way. But the gospel he speaks of is not that of the historic orthodox Christian faith.
And so it is with Rob Bell. He and his ilk have simply reimagined the Gospel and Christian terminology all the while repainting the social gospel into a post (after) liberalism i.e. a new revamped version. In a warped way it’s like a “Best of” bad theology CD.
Study it out for yourself and you’ll see tracks of corrupt “Christian” mysticism, neo-orthodoxy, existentialism, liberalism and ecumenicism just to name a few “hits.” Now I could also tell you how cool Rob is. No doubt he’s a captivating speaker and a very intelligent guy. But I’m guessing that’s been covered a time or a thousand.
So while Rob and others in the emerging church are feeding great tasting spiritual cyanide to young people I’ve decided people’s time is valuable. And that’s why I forego the platitudes and cut to the chase. Think of me what you will but all I’m really doing is saying publicly what other guys tend to say in their offices.
“Think of me what you will but all I’m really doing is saying publicly what other guys tend to say in their offices.”
Keep up the good work at Apprising Ministries, Ken!!
I think it was Jeff Noblit who said something to the effect of, “It only takes a glance at an elephant to know it wouldn’t make a good pet.”
I read through these comments that encourage a pressing-on and continued involvement in the EC in order to fully “flesh it out” but there are two things missing from that argument:
1) Paul’s admonition to Timothy to flee from these things. John’s warning in 2 John to not even extend hospitality to the teachers of these things, because in doing so we participate in their wickedness. The eternal condemnation of those who dare to “teach another Gospel”. In other words, sticking around and fleshing it out when the Spirit within a person is throwing warning after warning saying “NO!!” and that Spirit is backed up by the word of GOD….that’s just not something that one is to do. It’s flagrantly disobedient to do so. It involves dallying with another idol, toying with another god (little “g”), flirting with an adulterous affair that cuckolds our bridegroom, Jesus Christ.
2) All these warm/fuzzy things they proclaim to the world, including those arguments made in some of the above comments, they’re all in search of the one thing that has been missing from the church over the last few generations, and they can’t know that’s what they’re even looking for until and unless the Spirit extends enough grace for them to see it (Thus any intellectual arguments with them are going to be fruitless, because what’s being sought cannot be found intellectually but only spiritually and only through the unveiling and illumination of the Holy Spirit): rebirth. Regeneration. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which shows one’s own “creativity” and such “marketing” to be folly and silliness (because such things distract from the person and work of Jesus Christ and the power and sovereignty of God) and which fills and sustains us.
ken,
believe me when i say that i have read much of rauschenbusch, bell, schleiermacher and others who support a “social gospel.” my concern is not whether they are right or wrong (pertaining to our discussion here). my concern is how christians respond to them. this is all i have been voicing. i have not once supported the theological viewpoints of either person.
and by the way, the only “spiritual cyanide” i see in these comments is that of judgmentalism.
i appreciate your heart for youth, which is something that all of us should have. just be sure that you are not turning them away with a fundamentalist mindset that tends to exclude all that are not withing the “inner circle.”
one more thing. i consider the western/american version of christianity to be lethal in many ways. it’s easy to pick on Bell because he is a “rock star,” but there is a cheap grace flowing around many protestant/evangelical circles that is sapping the life out of Christ’s Church. try spending some time discouraging this view of the faith rather than continually attacking the same person.
“As a thinking, well-educated Christian, I expect a higher quality of evidence than what I’ve seen on the internet, and I don’t think I’m an exception. It’s all pretty subjective, a few impressions from attending a service or two, someone’s re-hash of another imperfect human’s interpretation of an article in CT, and there’s lots of anecdotal data, for whatever that’s worth.”
I’m not really sure how much more evidence you really want to see. Rob Bell himself said that he wants to reinvent Christianity into a new Eastern Religion. That kind of talking is heretical and I don’t use that word lightly. Rob Bell also goes on record in Velvet Elvis on page 148 (which I have read by the way) that, “When people use the word hell, what do they mean? They mean a place, an event, a situation absent of how God desires things to be. Famine, debt, oppression, loneliness, despair, death, slaughter–they are all hell on earth. Jesus’ desire for his followers is that they live in such a way that they bring heaven to earth. What’s disturbing is when people talk more about hell after this life than they do about Hell here and now. As a Christian, I want to do what I can to resist hell coming to earth.”
Well that may be a nice, warm, fuzzy way of thinking, but it’s unbiblical! Hell is a real place and sinners will perish in Hell if they refuse to repent and turn to Christ. “Hell on earth” is nothing like Hell. When you do not talk about Hell to your congregation, they are being deceived into believing a false Gospel. For as Bell goes on to say in that same book on that same page, “The goal of Jesus isn’t to get into heaven. The goal is to get heaven here.” Turning to Christ alone is for the purpose of living with Him for eternity, as His bride who exalts Him in worship for eternity. Everything revolves around His glory. When we get that confused, all theology goes on a downward spiral I think.
I’m not really sure how much evidence that we need. If you get the Gospel wrong, it really doesn’t matter what else you might just have right! The Gospel is central to the work of the church. In short, Rob Bell preaches a false Gospel and “Mars Hill Bible Church” is no church at all. It is merely a group of disgruntled, postmodernists who hate the authority and the establishment and who want to rebel against it. Rob Bell is a true rebel who wants to be a maverick in the ministry and that is why he attracts a crowd. He is a smooth talking rebel. He tickles peoples ears, just as Paul warned Timothy would happen to the Ephesian Church. Yes indeed we do know him by his fruits. He rejects the true Gospel in place of a false one. That is rotten fruit. He is one of those who have “crept in unawares” that Jude warns us of and he needs to be exposed for who he really is. I commend the spirit of this article in giving a fair presentation of a typical service at Mars Hill.
I guess the bottom line for me is this. There are a lot of churches out there who say they have their allegiance to the Word of God, but really don’t. Rob Bell’s allegiance to the Bible is symbolic at best. This is evidenced by the way that he handles it. When you don’t preach expositionally, you teach your congregation that it is OK to insert one verse or so here and there into a problem because that’s all it’s useful for. I have a real problem with that approach to “doing church”. The problem I have with it is that it is unbiblical. 1 Timothy 4:13 tells us the biblical method for preaching. When we deviate from that, everything else will snowball downhill fast. Beloved, Mars Hill is no “Bible Church” at all. Mars Hill is a group of confused postmodernists who don’t want to stand on God’s unshakable truth.
what needs to come out of this discussion is a more firm and sound understanding of grace. Christ gave it to his enemies, so we should do.
Jesus battle was against the dogmatic and fundamentalist religious leaders of his day, yet he still loved them and sought to direct them to God’s light of love for Him and one another. i prefer to follow his example and leave room for God’s wrath.
Tolerating and enabling evil in the name of a badly confused understanding of love and grace is no virtue.
truth…
i am not telling you to enable evil (we tolerate it every day of our life). i am simply discussing the anger/hate with which we speak of other people. it is unhealthy because it lacks love and grace.
i believe all of us, by virtue of being human, misunderstand grace and love.
we need balance. it is clear that we cannot tolerate bad/false teaching, but it is how we deal with it that is important. if we are truly redeemed, we will display the love of Christ in the way we deal with others. i do not see that on display here. sorry. it is not constructive, but destructive. we are speaking of fallen human beings here, not Satan himself! this is why there must be grace given.
I really appreciate the grace and love exhibited by Nathan Williams and the commenters in this 2-part blog post about the aberrant teachings at Rob Bell’s church.
Grace and love has been extended by those who have taken the time to constructively critique Rob Bell, and therefore, and in return, grace and love must be extended to those critiquing Rob Bell too.
Grace and love is a two way street.
Speaking the hard truth is sometimes viewed as unloving and ungraceful, but in reality, it is the most loving thing someone can do. When Jesus turned over the tables of the money changers, people probably would have accused Him of being unloving and ungraceful. We cannot tolerate false doctrine. The light must expose the darkness. I agree that we need to leave the wrath up to God, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t speak up for what the Word says in so doing. We need to speak clearly on what the Bible speaks to. If we don’t, who will? If false prophets are the only ones standing up for things, we are the ones who are really in error. To know the truth and not stand up for it is a greater sin in my understanding.
Ok, obviously it is pointless to continue this discussion with Dave. He is clearly unteachable and has not addressed the question, where does the Bible say we give grace to false teachers, heretics and apostates? In Galatians they are said to be accursed. Confronting false teachers and doctrinal error is a loving warning you Dave and others of those who disguise as genuine Christian teachers and deceive and delude unsuspecting, naive, biblically illiterate, probably rebellious, disgrunled professing Christians who have a chip on their shoulder and are mad because they don’t get to be God and call the shots. If you rebuke, reprove or chastize and discipline your kids, it does not mean you are not loving or gracious to them, but they say, “your mean, I hate you.” This is how you sound Dave, like a child who just can’t understand that some things need to be clear, and firm. Words like rebuke, reproof, and admonishment are not bad words, if we don’t like the messengers of those warnings and cautions and rebukes, then we think, oh, their mean, their unloving, we are rejecting any thought that what they say is valid and true and they are trying to help us, that is love. Not tolerating and allowing renegades to run amuck and cause much harm. I wonder if you even listen to your professors and parents and wife, if you have one or anyone, sounds like you just have to be right. Again, Dave where are the verses and passages about tolerating false teachers, we are talking about someone in the Church who is teaching, we are told to confront them, and expose them. Seems to be he called the pharisees, a brood of vipers, He said, you are of your father the devil, you make others twice a son of hell as you are. Jesus was not always kind and gracious to the religious leaders. We forget God is a man of war, the Lord is a Warrior. If you were God Dave, would you want people misrepresenting you? Do you want others to misrepresent you? I believe that if Nathan or anyone here on Pulpit had a chance to sit down with Rob Bell, it would be very dignified, no arrogant, condescending event.
What’s destructive my brother is the Rob Bell’s destructive false witness against God and His Word. Constructive is not accumulating all kinds of various books by all kinds of teachers and considering all their views, and not immersing yourself in the Word of God, getting an older, wiser, mentor, discipler to help you grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. Life is not always going to be nicey-nice, let’s all just get along, we are going to have tension and disagreements and intolerance towards issues and people. We need wisdom whom to give grace to and whom to avoid, reject, rebuke, admonish. Give us some grace, you don’t know our hearts, you don’t know how a face to face discussion with Rob Bell would pan out. Sounds like you may have preconceived ideas and notions that you are not willing to consider may be wrong or need to be re-thought through.
You know Rob Bell was the lead singer in a rock band, so it is know surprise that he contacted a former band member and had this idea of going on tour with his one man show in club type venues. Ok, where is the fruit, what unbelievers went there and came home born again believers in Christ. No, rebellious, chip on the shoulder pk’s who don’t want daddy’s old worn out religion, wannabe’s of the world, but not wanting to give up their spiritual upbringing. Do the research, most postmodern emergent pastors are represented by guys who grew up in church, Rob himself I believe. Prodigals who live between the pig pen and the palace. I’m done. I hope you find the wisdom and discernment to balance truth and grace.
michael, i would agree with you.
we do not have the ability to speak to rob bell directly, so many times, this can toe the line of slander (in my opinion).
simply stated, what i take issue with is when pure judgment that is thrown around at the individual, rather than simply combatting the idea or teaching.
other than that, i am right there with you that the light, by virtue of being light, must and will expose the darkness. i guess the question of what is darkness and who represents it is a much debated issue, but this the life of a human being.
The challenge and difficulty for all of us, not just those with a badly confused understanding of grace and love, is that it is hard to distinguish between biblical discernment and moralistic judgmentalism.
What’s terribly ironic is that those people who are accusing people (who are genuinely discerning Christians) of being judgmental and lacking grace are themselves pharasaically judgmental and lacking grace!
Go figure.
karie, it’s clear you have not read one word that i have said.
i never once said to tolerate false teachers.
i appreciate the passion with which everyone hear seeks to uphold our Lord Jesus Christ.
that’s it for me. God bless.
karie, it’s clear you have not read one word that i have said.
i never once said to tolerate false teachers.
i appreciate the passion with which everyone hear seeks to uphold the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
that’s it for me. God bless.
“What’s terribly ironic is that those people who are accusing people (who are genuinely discerning Christians) of being judgmental and lacking grace are themselves pharasaically judgmental and lacking grace! o figure.”
this is just plain wrong. i can’t believe some of the stuff i read in these responses!!!! NEVER did i judge one of you as being less the redeemed. we are all humans. i make mistakes. you make mistakes. was that being judgmental? sorry.
Dave: “was that being judgmental? sorry.”
Gracious apology graciously accepted.
Hey, Dave, I’m sorry I wasn’t quicker to defend you as nicely as you defended me. Thank you for that.
When one is emotionally invested in church-bashing, one becomes biased, and therefore, one’s judgment cannot be trusted. I think it’s been pretty obvious here that the more emotional people become, the less they listen to what others are really saying, the less logical they become, they less credibility they have. And this type of behavior among Christians is rampant on the internet, unfortunately. I have no respect for someone who engages in irresponsible journalism and personal attack, doesn’t fact-check diligently, and whose judgment is clearly clouded by bias that has no basis in real and true data.
We’re all imperfect humans, only God and the Incarnate Word are perfect. The Bible is quite clear on many, many topics, and when it is, I obey. A lot of other topics are not so clear, and it is left up to us imperfect humans to determine the correct interpretation. It is one of the Holy Spirit’s functions to teach us and help us learn rightly. I believe that the Holy Spirit calls us to perform “due diligence” in response. The interaction with the Holy Spirit in cooperation with His teaching is so precious. Don’t we all want to get it right?
Much of what is written by “internet prophets” is subjective, biased, and cannot be relied upon. There is a real need for Christians, especially those with a platform of influence, to use scholarly methods, seek to minimize bias, gather empirical data, and engage in civil dialog with each other for the glory of God. Sadly, I don’t see much of that happening on the internet. Partly that’s because it’s so impersonal. I try to never write something on the internet that I wouldn’t say to a dear friend’s face.
The question is not what the Bible tells us to do with false prophets, I think we all agree on that. The real issue is doing the due diligence required to come to a reasonable conclusion that someone is, in fact, a false prophet or heretic.
Several people have made referrals to other sources here, which I will check out with an open mind. That’s part of the value of civil dialog.
In parting, for the second time (this time for real), I’d like to point out how my words about checking out Rob Bell’s fruit was misconstrued. I never said the sheer numbers of his growth proved he was faithful to the Word. I totally agree numbers prove nothing. What I was advocating is the performance of a diligent evaluation of the character and quality of his fruit. John MacArthur’s last 3 entries have provided some guidance on how one would go about doing that Biblically, although I will say I do not think it can be performed in all due diligence without actually getting to know the ministry and its leaders personally.
The Mormon church is the perfect example. Their fruit is corrupt, and there is plenty of empirical evidence to prove it. I’m looking for the same caliber evidence before I come to a similar conclusion about another ministry.
Pax.
http://www.tent-peg.com/2007/11/rob-bell-review.html
Review of Rob Bell by a former devotee. I also read about people moving to Grand Rapids to go to MHBC, which sounds kind of like a cult following to me. Rob Bell may have had good intentions initially. Ken Silva also has a letter on his site by a former member that was their and involved in the church for over 5 years. I also, have never read any salvation testimonies coming out of Mars Hill, only testimonies of how enthralling of a communicator Bell is, one guy used the word exhilerating, that’s just weird. You know I believe the antichrist is going to be a very charming, charasmatic, articulate, captivating communicator, if we don’t get this discernment thing down now, that dude is going to literally reap a harvest, I can hear it now, “yes, yes, I want a cool 666 tattoo, right here on my forehead.”
And, please no comments about tattoo, we have pierced and tattoos in my family.
Miriam,
I realize that we can all jump to conclusions and it does behoove us to do some research before we conclude that someone is teaching/promoting unbiblical ideologies/doctrines. You decry the lack of empirical data by those ‘church-bashers’, but I ask how much is enough?
If I read one book by a pastor/author, and in this book I find error, misuse of Scripture, a misrepresentation of the gospel, all mixed with worldly philosophies and some biblical truth. Later, through a combination of listening to a couple of his sermons (or watching videos produced by his church) and/or reading articles (or blogs) by him and about him, I find that he is still teaching the same things, would this be enough for me to conclude that he is teaching error?
The empirical method involves collecting a large amount of data before making any kind of theory or conclusion. You really cannot apply it to the discernment of biblical error or in identifying those who teach error. Are you saying that unless we document that a pastor has taught a certain error 10 times, how about 20, or maybe 30, then we can’t conclude that he teaches this error? How many church services do you need to observe in order to discern a certain philosophy at work? Must it be documented in 20 services, 30, 100? What would satisfy this empirical need?
Dear Pulpit Magazine, could you please watch this you tube video. It’s a pastor doing and expose on Rob Bell. He shows a segment of The God’s aren’t Angry and then explains how “off” Rob Bell is. So, there are others out there who watch these video’s and have the ability to clearly discern that there is something amiss and unbiblical about Bell’s teachings. Thanks, Karie in CA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wSAEezBc3s&feature=related
Miriam,
This is another fallacy, that we need to know the pastor/leader personally to be able to evaluate what he teaches (i.e. perform due diligence). If you got to know the person and he appeared to be sincere, and opined that he held to orthodox doctrines on a private personal level, but then he turned around and taught things that were contrary to Scripture, things that were a mixture of biblical truth and worldly (unbiblical) philosophy, and proceeded to lead his church in a direction that was taking it away from God’s truth, then you would have to hold him accountable for his public proclamation and practice.
This makes me think of Rick Warren, who by all accounts, holds to fairly orthodox (albeit Arminian) doctrine on a private level; however, he very seldom proclaims the whole truth, and very often mixes it with pop psychology, motivational speech, business psychology… and has gone on to support mysticism. I don’t have to know him personally, but I can know his public proclamation, and it’s not biblical.
http://theresurgence.org/jeff_robinson_2004_engaged_by_the_culture
Wow, I found this on Mark Driscoll’s The Resurgence. Maybe there is hope for that guy, but for me the verdict is still out. Nevertheless, here is an article about Mars Hill Bible Church transition to becoming egalitarian and some folks left the church over the issue. I really don’t mean to be rude or sarcastic, but it seems like it is really easy to find this kind of “evidence” that there are problems with Bell and Mars Hill, it’s not hard, actually it’s pretty easy. About “getting to know the ministry and it’s leaders personally” The ministry is a reflection of the leadership, the pastor, the elders ect.
Their philosophy of ministry and their theological and doctrinal positions are fleshed out in the functions of their church ministries. You can pretty much discern and judge a church’s ministry by how we see it played out in thier view of God, the Bible, The Church, in this case, we see here what they believe about the role of women. I don’t know the president personally, yet I see the evidence of his term of office daily by the decisions he makes, the policies he endorses, the bills he wants to pass, the company he keeps, the way he views and deals with the country’s and the world’s problems and issues. I do know my leadership personally and our church’s and the personalty of the church reflects them and the rest of the leadership accurately.
This is getting closer to what I’m looking for. I checked out Casey Freswick and Greg Gilbert, both recommended by Ken Silva, and the youtube video (actually a critique of a Nooma vid, not “TGAA” tour) and Justin Buzzard’s play by play of the “TGAA” tour recommended by Karie, among others.
Greg Gilbert presents a fair and objective analysis of the Nooma vids. I think the most striking thing about Greg Gilbert is his humility. He follows the model of Acts 15:28 (For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things - see p.57 of Velvet Elvis for an expansion of this excellent point), and is never dogmatic, but frequently leaves open the possibility that he has misunderstood Rob. Nonetheless, he expresses serious concerns that ARE credible mostly BECAUSE he is so humble. We should all emulate this example.
Casey Freswick, on the other hand, is clearly biased, very dogmatic (and therefore, “unhumble”), and not nearly the scholar that Greg Gilbert is. His credentials were not as clear to me as Greg’s, so perhaps that biased my opinion slightly. Nonetheless, he lost me after the first couple paragraphs, and I do not consider him a credible resource.
I thought the youtube video was good. Cameron Buettel presented a clearly well-thought out, well-supported rebuttal of the Dust vid. What was Rob thinking on that one?
I also thought Justin Buzzard’s eyewitness report of the “TGAA” tour was excellent. He also displayed a great deal of humility, stating several times that he may have misunderstood Rob, and falls short, as does Greg Gilbert, BTW, of calling Rob a heretic.
So am I convinced yet that Rob is a false prophet? Not yet, although I am still open-minded. Like I said earlier, I’ve heard him speak several times (his “scapegoat” teaching with the live goat deals with the subject of sacrifice very nicely, and he makes the connection to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and His function as High Priest quite ably), and I think Sex God is one of the best books ever written on the subject.
D.A.Carson makes the point somewhere (I’ll find the source if someone wants it) that Rob’s message has become more liberal over time, and I must consider that in light of the fact that I hold D.A. Carson in high regard, and in light of the fact that I haven’t heard Rob speak recently. Dr. Carson also falls short of accusing him of heresy, however.
I am currently in the middle of reading Velvet Elvis as part of my own personal due diligence, and I am trying to get my hands on a recording of “TGAA.”
I have zero respect for Mark Driscoll, so I didn’t even go there, sorry. I have caught him in several outright lies regarding ministries about which I have personal knowledge, so he is not a credible source in my mind.
Michael, you’ve questioned how much data is enough. If the data is objective and black and white, one reference is enough! If someone clearly states that there are more ways to God than through Jesus Christ, then that would be it for me. The problem is when someone doesn’t clearly state that, and in fact, even clearly denies that they believe that. We must then rely on the entirely subjective evidence of habitual use of questionable and murky language (which is then subject to bias, misunderstanding, misquoting, taking things out of context, and all those types of things), prove malicious intent, and look for more objective data in the form of their fruit, their deeds and actions. In that case, a lot more empirical data is required.
I remain firmly convinced that the context of a person’s whole life must be evaluated diligently prior to coming to a firm conclusion. We don’t evaluate Jesus merely on the Words that He spoke, we evaluate His deeds and actions as well. The way He lived His life is completely relevant to our perception of Him as the Son of God. Likewise, the way a church leader lives his life, the fruit that he bears, his deeds and actions is completely relevant to discerning whether the Holy Spirit is working through him.
The Bible says that God looks on the heart, and implies that humans lack perfect ability to discern the righteousness of another human. For this we need the Holy Spirit. I believe the Holy Spirit requires nothing less than a diligent analysis of a leader’s whole life prior to naming him as a false prophet. I simply don’t see how an imperfect human could even begin to know another’s heart without personal knowledge of the individual or ministry. At the very least, the testimony of credible eyewitness with personal knowledge should be obtained. Unfortunately, much of the “eyewitness” reporting on the internet is simply not credible.
I guess I’m not done with this yet. I’ll check back when I’ve finished Velvet Elvis.
Miriam,
“Rob’s message has become more liberal over time…” This is exactly right. You said: “At the very least, the testimony of credible eyewitness with personal knowledge should be obtained.” I’m glad you feel that way because I spoken with a number of people who have known Rob Bell before he was “Rob” as well as with people who were part of the church plant from Calvary which produced Mars Hill.
They agree that Bell used to be an expository preacher. One even said, “Think MacArthur.” However, his practice of Contemplative Mysticism and his coming across the warped anf toxic teachings of Brian McLaren have moved Bell to a much more subjective approach. When we move into the mystical realm and speak of hearing God say, “Teach this book and I’ll take care of the rest,” we are on a slippery slope. Victor Paul Wierwille who started the cult the Way International also heard “God” tell him that exact same thing.
You then opine: “Unfortunately, much of the “eyewitness” reporting on the internet is simply not credible.” Well, at least you say so. I will caution you that from looking at your comments this would seem to be levied against anyone you arbitrarily decide is “unhumble.” You need to understand that just because someone is polemical it doesn’t mean they take that approach without fear and trembling before the Lord. We are dealing with people’s eternal destiny here.
And finally you said: “the way a church leader lives his life, the fruit that he bears, his deeds and actions is completely relevant to discerning whether the Holy Spirit is working through him.” To a point, yes. However, all the “life”, “fruit”, the “deeds and actions” you suggest we look for would be evident in many religious leaders. The more genuine it looks the better the counterfeit. According to what you just said we would have to consider the Pope of Rome a Christian. No, these things must also line up according to the Law and the Testimony rightly interpreted. And Bell’s repudiation of sola Scriptura cut him loose from the anchor against deception.
Miriam,
You make the statement that someone who is dogmatic is unhumble. You sound like Brian Maclaren. Holding to a truth dogmatically doesn’t mean doing it with arrogance and pride. It means holding to a truth from God’s Word tenaciously and unwilling to compromise that truth.
I believe Jesus is the only way of salvation. That is a dogmatic statement. Does it make it an arrogant statement? You seem to want everyone to abide by your standards of analyzing a ministry and then you make statements like this.
The bottom line is that if a pastor or his ministry’s statements in print or in verbal form contradict the Word of God, we don’t need to do any further investigation. We have all we need to know about Rob Bell from his writing and his sermons to consider his ministry unbiblical.
Wow, I have serious doubts about Mark Driscoll and always have. Nevertheless, you dismissed the fact that the article on Resurgence regarding Bell converting to an egalitarian view was valid, and it is. Even though I don’t trust Mark Driscoll, some very distinguised, godly men of high caliber and greatly respected such as John Piper, Mark Dever and several others endorse Mark Driscoll. We can’t shoot the messenger just because we don’t like his tone and in our subjective opinion judge them as “unhumble” aka “proud.” Some people are sarcastic and direct and arrogant in their approach, but that does not mean they are not credible. I believe that Rob Bell is sarcastic in his writings and in some of his Nooma video’s. I keep going back over the book of Galatians. Paul is very sarcastic and direct and even got up in Peter’s face. He said those preaching another Jesus were accursed, he called them foolish a couple of times.
He confronted them on their hypocrisy. At times I see Dave as sarcastic and Miriam as condescending to those who are not as intellectually savvy and dismissing anyone who is not a scholar or who is not “humble.” Maybe not humble in your opinion or according to your standards. How is Rob Bell being misunderstood. He has set himself up to misunderstood. Why is their not clarity in his teaching? Ambiguity and being evasive are earmarks of the postmodern movement. Why can’t he just say I believe in a literal Hell. Why does he make statements that make him sound like a universalist and then he says, I am not a universalist. This kind of communication and speech is not straight forward, it is confusing and causes doubts and “misunderstanding” and debates and wranglings, this cannot be good. Going back to Galatians, what if Peter would have said, but Paul you totally misunderstand what I am doing here, what I am trying to accomplish? Just a thought. One more thing, I as a woman want to thank Pulpit Magazine for allowing women to come here and share our thoughts, opinions, views. I noticed Miriam did not make any comments on Rob Bell being egalitarian.
This has been an interesting exchange, and I thank everyone who engaged.
I finished reading Velvet Elvis, and perused the internet for a few more credible sources.
I have a few final observations.
1) I began to see a pattern as I studied the criticism of Rob Bell by people I would consider credible, e.g. D.A. Carson, among others. While they all level very serious charges, they all, without exception, bent over backwards to avoid calling him a false prophet or heretic. I think that’s significant.
2) Several people on this thread and elsewhere on the internet make the observation that Rob’s target audience is primarily Christians who have been disenfranchised by conservative churches. I think that’s a valid point, and has some relevance to how we ought to evaluate his message. It occurred to me as I read Velvet Elvis that it wasn’t so much that he didn’t believe it, but that he was assuming the reader already had a working knowledge of the basic Christian worldview, Jesus’ substitutionary atonement for our sin, his humanity/divinity, his virgin birth, etc, and therefore did not see the need to review it. (I must give credit to D.A. Carson for this thought, although he came to a different conclusion, I think.)
3) It’s not like he totally ignores it either. On pp. 107-108 in Velvet Elvis he makes a distinction between the work of the cross FOR us (the wrath of God was satisfied and those who accept Him attain the legal status of not guilty) and the work of the cross IN us (those who accept Him enter into the process of sanctification, the process of becoming actually free of sin, to be completed in eternity), and he is quite plain that the cross does BOTH, not one or the other. Part of the failing of the traditional conservative church is that it has preached the work of the cross FOR us AT THE EXPENSE of teaching about the work of the cross IN us, and I think Rob is trying to balance the message. Does he overcompensate at times? Sure, but I don’t believe that makes him heretical any more than I think the traditional conservative focus on propitiation and penal substitution makes it heretical.
For these and other reasons, I am coming to the conclusion that he does, in fact, hold orthodox Christian views. Is he guilty of being cavalier with the Gospel by not considering his wider audience? Perhaps. Does he make mistakes in his interpretation of certain Scripture? Absolutely. Don’t we all. Do I think this makes him a heretic? No.
I’ve been subjected to a fair amount of scorn here for insisting on due diligence, which kind of surprises me. Why would you not want to do your homework before naming someone as a heretic? To dismiss a ministry as heretical simply because they play Coldplay prior to their services and have women elders is irresponsible. God calls us to a higher standard than that. So I once again challenge everyone who reads this to practice and insist on due diligence. It’s too important to get it wrong either way.
Other questions were raised here, but I was trying to keep the discussion focused. The female role thing in the church is a non-issue to me, either way, for two reasons, one, I’ve never encountered a situation where I was forbidden to do God’s bidding, whatever it was, merely because of my gender, and two, I subscribe to Norman Geisler’s Essential Doctrines that he outlined in a two-part article for the Christian Research Journal awhile back. Allowing a woman to lead may be in error, but it is not grounds for accusations of heresy. In defense of Mark Driscoll, it’s easy to embellish things when you’re on a mission, which is why it’s so important to fact-check scrupulously.
Everyone completely missed my point on the subject of dogma and humility (probably because you didn’t want to pick up a copy of Velvet Elvis to check the citation), so there’s no point in re-hashing that. I’m sure the fault is all mine for not communicating more clearly.
I am very sorry if I came across as condescending, or if anyone thought I was talking down to them. The flip side of that coin is I find it appallingly arrogant for people who lack objectivity and who do not take due care to get the facts straight to make accusations of heresy against any ministry.
A little bit about my background, if anyone cares. I am a Christian businesswoman in the Chicago area, I’ve been married for 27 years, I have 3 wonderful sons, all solid Christians, ages 27, 20 and 17, the oldest of which is handicapped (Down Syndrome). I was raised in a fundamentalist GARBC church (it was a lot more conservative in the 60’s and 70’s). I rebelled. God drew me back to Him via a series of events over the past 30 years, a Larry Norman concert, Henry Blackaby’s Experiencing God book, and Willow Creek Community Church, to name a few of the more signicant ones. I have attended and served at Willow for the past 15 years. I am currently in the process of applying to the Seminary at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.
If anyone is interested in further discussion, please feel free to contact me at miriam.nard@comcast.net. I also have a facebook site at which anyone is welcome so long as the interaction remains civil.
Soli Deo Gloria.
Willow Creek? Wow that explains everything. You have just now lost YOUR credibility. I am truly done with further discussion. Can any good thing come of of Willow Creek. Because of Willow Creek and it’s introduction of the seeker model we have come to this current crisis in Christianity.
In one of my earlier posts, I said that maybe Miriam and Dave should go to their Pastor’s and Elders and find out what they think of Rob Bell’s ministry and teaching. Here is an article by the Willow Creek Association and apparantly “which is not surprising” think that the man and his methods are awesome.
http://www.willowcreek.com/wcanews/story.asp?id=WN03Q12003
How adults can be so easily impressed with sliced apples and honey is beyond me. Sounds great for a children’s sunday school though!
karie, that is exactly what the pharisees said about Jesus. can anything good come from …? what a condescending and judgmental statement/question. i can see why this discussion didn’t get anywhere after reading that. thank you for effectively ending my participation in this discussion.
Hi Miriam,
That’s one reason why it’s so hard to pin down some of the emergent teachers. You stated that one statement, such as ‘there is more than one way to Jesus’, would be enough. Their error (and I say ‘error’ as opposed to heresy) is usually more subtle. You mentioned that Bell denies that he holds to certain beliefs. You often have to look beyond a denial and listen to what’s actually taught. That reminds me of Rick Warren saying in his PDL book that he doesn’t want to use or mix pop psychology, but then he spends a good portion of the book doing just that. It also reminds me of another fairly well known individual, who has repeatedly said that he stands against mysticism, but in one book teaches the basics of meditation, and (as was reported to me by a pastor) during a recent seminar was teaching a lecto divina approach to prayer and bible reading.
Have you read “Willow Creek Seeker Services, Evaluating a New Way of Doing Church” (by Pritchard)? Also, “Redefining Christianity, Understanding the Purpose Driven Movement” (by DeWaay).
I am not sorry Dave, WC is the birth place of the seeker movement and resposible for most of the other man-made, man centered ministries plaguing many churhes today. WC is responsible for the current crisis we see today that did not work (which they now admit) and has led to a kind of disenchantment that has fueled the Emergent/Emerging Church Movement. Willow Creek and Saddleback. So now, non-judgemental, non-critical, non-condescending Dave, I am a pharisee. Start showing your empirical data, unless all you got are apples and honey! Where is the word of God, I mentioned Galatians as a place to start to determine false teachers and to see the boldness of Paul in confronting Peter and the Galatians, even calling them foolish. Go search your empirical data and see that Willow Creek finally admits to failure in the seeker model. My comment was about WC, what good has come out of WC, I did not mean Miriam, although she seemed to be setting herself up as teacher/judge here and continued herself to be sort of arrogant. If she has been at WC for 15 years and in ministry there, she is not really in a quest for the truth about Rob Bell, IN MY OPINION. Bell’s materials ARE or have been used at WC, and probably it would be hard to admit, that that repository of truth WC could have baptized Bell to hastily.
Karie,
I don’t know enough about Rob Bell to comment about him or Mars Hill, but I think in your last comment, you happened to just prove Miriam’s case the multiple data points are better than just one and that bias can play a role in what people see or hear. You stated, “Go search your empirical data and see that Willow Creek finally admits to failure in the seeker model.” I did as you suggested, I find that Willow Creek is as committed to reaching Seekers as every before with their seeker model. (See http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080701/megachurch-sets-record-straight-on-recalibrating.htm and http://blog.christianitytoday.com/outofur/archives/2008/06/out_of_ur_repen.html)
The Reveal study does not suggest that the seeker model is flawed, it showed that it worked extremely well at reaching lost people and helping them make the decision to follow Christ as their Lord and Savior. It also did well at helping them after becoming a Christian to a certain point and then the church had a lesser effect on helping a Christian in their personal walk with Christ. Basically going to more church activities does not predict a person’s growing devotion to Christ. Where Willow is revamping their strategy is in stressing the need for daily personal devotional time in studying Scripture and prayer, instead of people relying solely on the weekend and midweek services and small group time for their weekly spiritual nourishment. Note also the Reveal survey was taken by both “seeker” and “non-seeker” churches all churches have shown similar results. I am guessing you probably saw the original article/blog or maybe the sound bite videos that didn’t provide the full context of the results.
I’d like to respond to the very first comment from Nik Papageorgiou.
(quote) I must admit that I find the notion of a “post-modern” church a bit of a contradiction in terms. For example, the