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	<title>Comments on: When Worlds Collide (Part 2)</title>
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	<description>A Ministry of Shepherds' Fellowship</description>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/05/21/when-worlds-collide-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-134798</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 09:50:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>CS Lewis said &quot;God is love, but love is not God;&quot; I think that describes the Biblical position well.

I suspect the reason many evangelicals are embracing postmodernism is that they&#039;ve been unable to find objective and rational proof of the veracity and authenticity of the Bible, and their integrity prevents them from insisting that the Bible must be true until they&#039;ve found solid evidence to back the claim up. 
Biblical verses themselves can show us the unity of the Bible and its internal consistency, but for us to know the Bible is true I believe we also need to see that the Bible is consistent with scientific and historical evidence in the world.  Evangelicals who&#039;ve been unable to find this evidence, whether that be because they&#039;re lazy, not given the opportunity, or because the evidence simply isn&#039;t available, understandably turn to postmodernism, in order to justify their continued belief in something they&#039;ve been unable to find proof for. In postmodernism almost anything can be called true if it&#039;s a beautiful enough idea,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CS Lewis said &#8220;God is love, but love is not God;&#8221; I think that describes the Biblical position well.</p>
<p>I suspect the reason many evangelicals are embracing postmodernism is that they&#8217;ve been unable to find objective and rational proof of the veracity and authenticity of the Bible, and their integrity prevents them from insisting that the Bible must be true until they&#8217;ve found solid evidence to back the claim up.<br />
Biblical verses themselves can show us the unity of the Bible and its internal consistency, but for us to know the Bible is true I believe we also need to see that the Bible is consistent with scientific and historical evidence in the world.  Evangelicals who&#8217;ve been unable to find this evidence, whether that be because they&#8217;re lazy, not given the opportunity, or because the evidence simply isn&#8217;t available, understandably turn to postmodernism, in order to justify their continued belief in something they&#8217;ve been unable to find proof for. In postmodernism almost anything can be called true if it&#8217;s a beautiful enough idea,</p>
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		<title>By: Raffi Shahinian</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/05/21/when-worlds-collide-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-133726</link>
		<dc:creator>Raffi Shahinian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 18:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/05/21/when-worlds-collide-part-2/#comment-133726</guid>
		<description>But the greatest of these is Love.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the greatest of these is Love.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Riccardi</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/05/21/when-worlds-collide-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-133684</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Riccardi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 14:41:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/05/21/when-worlds-collide-part-2/#comment-133684</guid>
		<description>Raffi,

It&#039;s not proper to replace &quot;God&quot; with &quot;Love&quot; or &quot;Agape.&quot; While we know that 1 John teaches that God is Love, we should also know from the rest of the testimony of Scripture that God is not &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; love. When we don&#039;t see the glory in God&#039;s terrible wrath that burns actively and passionately against sin, we miss the fact that (from 1 John also) God is Light, in whom there is no darkness at all. If His wrath isn&#039;t aroused against sin, against that which is so opposed to Him, He isn&#039;t righteous, isn&#039;t holy, and so isn&#039;t God. He&#039;s just an indulgent old grandfather, who pats the head of sinners and smiles as if they don&#039;t know any better. Consider this from Jonathan Edwards:

---
It is a proper and excellent thing for infinite glory to shine forth; and for the same reason, it is proper that the shining forth of God’s glory should be complete; that is, that all parts of his glory should shine forth, that every beauty should be proportionably effulgent [=radiant], that the beholder may have a proper notion of God. &lt;b&gt;It is not proper that one glory should be exceedingly manifested, and another not at all&lt;/b&gt;... Thus it is necessary, that God’s awful majesty, his authority and dreadful greatness, justice, and holiness, should be manifested. But this could not be, unless sin and punishment had been decreed; so that the shining forth of God’s glory would be very imperfect, both because these parts of divine glory would not shine forth as the others do, and also the glory of his goodness, love, and holiness would be faint without them; nay, they could scarcely shine forth at all. If it were not right that God should decree and permit and punish sin, there could be no manifestation of God’s holiness in hatred of sin, or in showing any preference, in his providence, of godliness before it. There would be no manifestation of God’s grace or true goodness, if there was no sin to be pardoned, no misery to be saved from. How much happiness soever he bestowed, his goodness would not be so much prized and admired, and the sense of it not so great . . . So evil is necessary, in order to the highest happiness of the creature, and the completeness of that communication of God, for which he made the world; because the creature’s happiness consists in the knowledge of God, and the sense of his love. And if the knowledge of him be imperfect, the happiness of the creature must be proportionably imperfect. (Jonathan Edwards, &quot;Concerning the Divine Decrees,&quot; in The Works of Jonathan Edwards (Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 1974), p. 528)
---

So you see, it&#039;s infinitely loving for God to be wrathful against sin and punish sin in wrath. That&#039;s what Romans 9:22-23 says: &quot;What if God, willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory.&quot; He endured the vessels of &lt;i&gt;wrath&lt;/i&gt; to make the riches of His glory known to His people.

Consider the witness of the rest of Scripture on the propriety of God&#039;s wrath.

&quot;As I live,&quot; declares the Lord GOD, &quot;surely with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out, I shall be king over you.&quot; -- Ezekiel 20:33

&quot;I will also clap My hands together, and I will appease My wrath; I, the LORD, have spoken.&quot; -- Ezekiel 21:17

&quot;He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.&quot; -- John 3:36

But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) May it never be! -- Rom 3:5 (IOW, if God shows His righteousness against sin, is He wrong? Is He unloving? No. May it never be!)

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. -- Rom 5:9

In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. -- 1 John 4:10

And that last one really speaks to your questions. God&#039;s wrath against sin is the very stuff of what the love of Christ is made of. Jesus&#039; satisfying (or propitiating) the wrath of the Father for us and our sin is that in which &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; love. It is the very &lt;i&gt;way&lt;/i&gt; God loved us in Christ. 

&lt;i&gt;But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief. ...

Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried;         Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions,         He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. -- Isaiah 53&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Raffi,</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not proper to replace &#8220;God&#8221; with &#8220;Love&#8221; or &#8220;Agape.&#8221; While we know that 1 John teaches that God is Love, we should also know from the rest of the testimony of Scripture that God is not <i>only</i> love. When we don&#8217;t see the glory in God&#8217;s terrible wrath that burns actively and passionately against sin, we miss the fact that (from 1 John also) God is Light, in whom there is no darkness at all. If His wrath isn&#8217;t aroused against sin, against that which is so opposed to Him, He isn&#8217;t righteous, isn&#8217;t holy, and so isn&#8217;t God. He&#8217;s just an indulgent old grandfather, who pats the head of sinners and smiles as if they don&#8217;t know any better. Consider this from Jonathan Edwards:</p>
<p>&#8212;<br />
It is a proper and excellent thing for infinite glory to shine forth; and for the same reason, it is proper that the shining forth of God’s glory should be complete; that is, that all parts of his glory should shine forth, that every beauty should be proportionably effulgent [=radiant], that the beholder may have a proper notion of God. <b>It is not proper that one glory should be exceedingly manifested, and another not at all</b>&#8230; Thus it is necessary, that God’s awful majesty, his authority and dreadful greatness, justice, and holiness, should be manifested. But this could not be, unless sin and punishment had been decreed; so that the shining forth of God’s glory would be very imperfect, both because these parts of divine glory would not shine forth as the others do, and also the glory of his goodness, love, and holiness would be faint without them; nay, they could scarcely shine forth at all. If it were not right that God should decree and permit and punish sin, there could be no manifestation of God’s holiness in hatred of sin, or in showing any preference, in his providence, of godliness before it. There would be no manifestation of God’s grace or true goodness, if there was no sin to be pardoned, no misery to be saved from. How much happiness soever he bestowed, his goodness would not be so much prized and admired, and the sense of it not so great . . . So evil is necessary, in order to the highest happiness of the creature, and the completeness of that communication of God, for which he made the world; because the creature’s happiness consists in the knowledge of God, and the sense of his love. And if the knowledge of him be imperfect, the happiness of the creature must be proportionably imperfect. (Jonathan Edwards, &#8220;Concerning the Divine Decrees,&#8221; in The Works of Jonathan Edwards (Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 1974), p. 528)<br />
&#8212;</p>
<p>So you see, it&#8217;s infinitely loving for God to be wrathful against sin and punish sin in wrath. That&#8217;s what Romans 9:22-23 says: &#8220;What if God, willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory.&#8221; He endured the vessels of <i>wrath</i> to make the riches of His glory known to His people.</p>
<p>Consider the witness of the rest of Scripture on the propriety of God&#8217;s wrath.</p>
<p>&#8220;As I live,&#8221; declares the Lord GOD, &#8220;surely with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out, I shall be king over you.&#8221; &#8212; Ezekiel 20:33</p>
<p>&#8220;I will also clap My hands together, and I will appease My wrath; I, the LORD, have spoken.&#8221; &#8212; Ezekiel 21:17</p>
<p>&#8220;He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.&#8221; &#8212; John 3:36</p>
<p>But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) May it never be! &#8212; Rom 3:5 (IOW, if God shows His righteousness against sin, is He wrong? Is He unloving? No. May it never be!)</p>
<p>Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. &#8212; Rom 5:9</p>
<p>In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. &#8212; 1 John 4:10</p>
<p>And that last one really speaks to your questions. God&#8217;s wrath against sin is the very stuff of what the love of Christ is made of. Jesus&#8217; satisfying (or propitiating) the wrath of the Father for us and our sin is that in which <i>is</i> love. It is the very <i>way</i> God loved us in Christ. </p>
<p><i>But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief. &#8230;</p>
<p>Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried;         Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions,         He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. &#8212; Isaiah 53</i></p>
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		<title>By: Raffi Shahinian</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/05/21/when-worlds-collide-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-133451</link>
		<dc:creator>Raffi Shahinian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 May 2008 13:58:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/05/21/when-worlds-collide-part-2/#comment-133451</guid>
		<description>I hear what you (and MacArthur) are saying, and I tend to agree. The question I want to pose, though, is this: are the words that we use to relay these things getting in our way? &lt;a href=&quot;http://parablesofaprodigalworld.blogspot.com/2008/03/countdown-to-easter-wrath-of-love.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&#039;s something I posted a while back&lt;/a&gt; on a different issue but which kind of gets to the heart of what I&#039;m thinking here. I&#039;d love to know what you think.

Grace and Peace,
Raffi
&lt;a href=&quot;http://parablesofaprodigalworld.blogspot.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Parables of a Prodigal World&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hear what you (and MacArthur) are saying, and I tend to agree. The question I want to pose, though, is this: are the words that we use to relay these things getting in our way? <a href="http://parablesofaprodigalworld.blogspot.com/2008/03/countdown-to-easter-wrath-of-love.html" rel="nofollow">Here&#8217;s something I posted a while back</a> on a different issue but which kind of gets to the heart of what I&#8217;m thinking here. I&#8217;d love to know what you think.</p>
<p>Grace and Peace,<br />
Raffi<br />
<a href="http://parablesofaprodigalworld.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Parables of a Prodigal World</a></p>
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		<title>By: Truth Unites... and Divides</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/05/21/when-worlds-collide-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-133247</link>
		<dc:creator>Truth Unites... and Divides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 13:21:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/05/21/when-worlds-collide-part-2/#comment-133247</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;The only cure, I am convinced, is a conscious, wholesale rejection of post modern values and a return to these six distinctives of biblical Christianity.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

I am likewise convinced, and have been convinced for a long time now.  Biblical Christians must lovingly confront Christian brothers and sisters who are syncretizing postmodern values with biblical Christianity.

I fully and heartily support Pastor John MacArthur for doing exactly that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;The only cure, I am convinced, is a conscious, wholesale rejection of post modern values and a return to these six distinctives of biblical Christianity.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>I am likewise convinced, and have been convinced for a long time now.  Biblical Christians must lovingly confront Christian brothers and sisters who are syncretizing postmodern values with biblical Christianity.</p>
<p>I fully and heartily support Pastor John MacArthur for doing exactly that.</p>
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		<title>By: William du Plooy</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/05/21/when-worlds-collide-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-133229</link>
		<dc:creator>William du Plooy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 12:05:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/05/21/when-worlds-collide-part-2/#comment-133229</guid>
		<description>Sadly my personal experience has confirmed John MacArthur&#039;s view that so called &quot;Evangelicals&quot; are absconding from the truth. They confess with their mouths, yet do not in deed. It is becoming clear that some will cliam to hold to truth, but their actions truly &quot;speak louder than words&quot;. 

As James rightly says, &quot;Faith without Works is dead&quot;. If we say we believe and yet do not ACT in accord with what we confess in words, what good is it? It is like salt that has lost it&#039;s flavour.

Let us pray for the defence of the Gospel of Grace, that we may not speak a great deal only, but that we may TAKE ACTION in accord with the Truth of Scripture, that we may walk in the Integrity of the light, doing Spiritually led good works that Glorify our Father. Never forsaking LOVE nor TRUTH, but in unity of BOTH procliam the remission o sins in Christ, repentance and Transformation by the Spirit through the outworking of the Word of God.

May we pray in this also for more Shepherds and Elders to be raised up with aconvcition by the Spirit to care for the souls of the many, for Deacon s/nesses who willingy will labour amongst the Church of Christ and then the lost. May we continue to pray for those in authority in and outside the Church, that the LORD Himself may grant them of His good fruit in their service to us and our Communities.

By merciful grace alone, convicted of the Scriptures by the Spirit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sadly my personal experience has confirmed John MacArthur&#8217;s view that so called &#8220;Evangelicals&#8221; are absconding from the truth. They confess with their mouths, yet do not in deed. It is becoming clear that some will cliam to hold to truth, but their actions truly &#8220;speak louder than words&#8221;. </p>
<p>As James rightly says, &#8220;Faith without Works is dead&#8221;. If we say we believe and yet do not ACT in accord with what we confess in words, what good is it? It is like salt that has lost it&#8217;s flavour.</p>
<p>Let us pray for the defence of the Gospel of Grace, that we may not speak a great deal only, but that we may TAKE ACTION in accord with the Truth of Scripture, that we may walk in the Integrity of the light, doing Spiritually led good works that Glorify our Father. Never forsaking LOVE nor TRUTH, but in unity of BOTH procliam the remission o sins in Christ, repentance and Transformation by the Spirit through the outworking of the Word of God.</p>
<p>May we pray in this also for more Shepherds and Elders to be raised up with aconvcition by the Spirit to care for the souls of the many, for Deacon s/nesses who willingy will labour amongst the Church of Christ and then the lost. May we continue to pray for those in authority in and outside the Church, that the LORD Himself may grant them of His good fruit in their service to us and our Communities.</p>
<p>By merciful grace alone, convicted of the Scriptures by the Spirit.</p>
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