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	<title>Comments on: Evolution and Ethics</title>
	<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/04/28/evolution-and-ethics-2/</link>
	<description>A Ministry of Shepherds' Fellowship</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:19:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Daryl</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/04/28/evolution-and-ethics-2/#comment-128628</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 12:18:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/04/28/evolution-and-ethics-2/#comment-128628</guid>
					<description>"Is the world a lesser creation of God than the Bible? "

It depends on what you mean by lesser. If you mean "any less a creation of God" then obviously, no.

If you mean a less reliable source of information than the Bible, then certainly the answer is, yes. In the same way that observing a child for an hour provides less insight into their life than asking the parent to talk to you for 6 hours about the child would be.

There are things we can know about God and creation from the world around us, but we need the biblical explanations to really get it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Is the world a lesser creation of God than the Bible? &#8221;</p>
<p>It depends on what you mean by lesser. If you mean &#8220;any less a creation of God&#8221; then obviously, no.</p>
<p>If you mean a less reliable source of information than the Bible, then certainly the answer is, yes. In the same way that observing a child for an hour provides less insight into their life than asking the parent to talk to you for 6 hours about the child would be.</p>
<p>There are things we can know about God and creation from the world around us, but we need the biblical explanations to really get it.
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		<title>by: lutesuite</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/04/28/evolution-and-ethics-2/#comment-128537</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 00:30:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/04/28/evolution-and-ethics-2/#comment-128537</guid>
					<description>"If all creatures share a common ancestry, then at some point a creature of one species would have to either give birth to or become a different species. This is scientifically and logically impossible. The common ancestry you believe in would require that the plethora of species present today came from a single species present in the past, yet you already stated that creatures do not give birth to creatures of a different species."

This is simply untrue, but it's an easy mistake to make.  One way to illustrate how the process occurs is to describe what are caled "ring species."  The best known example is the Larus gull.  Wikipedia has a good explanation here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species  

but I'll give a brief summary.  First of all, it's important to understand what is meant by "species."  The term refers to a group of organisms who can breed with each other and produce fertile offspring, but cannot breed with any other organisms.  Lets suppose there is a group of animals A.  A subgroup moves to a different area with different environmental condition, say a cooler climate.  Lets call this second group B.  Group B develops different genetic traits such that they are readily distinguishable from Group A, but are not yet a separate species; they can still interbreed with Group A.  Now, lets say another group splinters off from Group B to form Group C, which is still interfertile with Groups A and B, though still identifiable as a different group. We continue the process til we get up to Group E.  By now, however, the differences have accumulated to the point that Group E is a separate species from Group A.  Animals from Group E cannot breed with those from A.  However, throughout this process, no animal has given birth to an animal of a different species.  Group B is the same species as A, C as B, D as C and E as D.  However, E and A are different species.  There is nothing hypothetical about this example.  Instances have been clearly documented.  Hopefully this shows how what I said is not illogical.

The other idea you misunderstand is "transitional species". As you should be able to see, Groups B, C, and D could all be seen as "transitional" between A and E.  The canard of "no transitional species" is repeated so often by creationists, and is so patently untrue I suspect people must have an idea that a "transitional" will look like something with a fish head and and a bird tail.  In a sense, all fossils (all organsims, really) are transitional: they are intermediate in appearance between their ancestors and their descendents.  However, here is a (only partial) list of prominent transitional fossils:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils

You statement that "all the evidence points to a young earth" is simply wrong, that's all I can say for the moment.  It always saddens me to see how many people feel that, in order to maintain their faith, they must live in an enforced ignorance about basic facts regarding the world they inhabit.  I think it would do them well to heed the words of St. Augustine of Hippo from the 5th century:

"It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are."

If you truly believe the earth is God's creation, then I don't see why you would foreswear examining it as avidly, and with the same sense of humility and discovery, as you examine what you believe are His holy scriptures.  Is the world a lesser creation of God than the Bible?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If all creatures share a common ancestry, then at some point a creature of one species would have to either give birth to or become a different species. This is scientifically and logically impossible. The common ancestry you believe in would require that the plethora of species present today came from a single species present in the past, yet you already stated that creatures do not give birth to creatures of a different species.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is simply untrue, but it&#8217;s an easy mistake to make.  One way to illustrate how the process occurs is to describe what are caled &#8220;ring species.&#8221;  The best known example is the Larus gull.  Wikipedia has a good explanation here:</p>
<p><a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species' rel='nofollow'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species</a>  </p>
<p>but I&#8217;ll give a brief summary.  First of all, it&#8217;s important to understand what is meant by &#8220;species.&#8221;  The term refers to a group of organisms who can breed with each other and produce fertile offspring, but cannot breed with any other organisms.  Lets suppose there is a group of animals A.  A subgroup moves to a different area with different environmental condition, say a cooler climate.  Lets call this second group B.  Group B develops different genetic traits such that they are readily distinguishable from Group A, but are not yet a separate species; they can still interbreed with Group A.  Now, lets say another group splinters off from Group B to form Group C, which is still interfertile with Groups A and B, though still identifiable as a different group. We continue the process til we get up to Group E.  By now, however, the differences have accumulated to the point that Group E is a separate species from Group A.  Animals from Group E cannot breed with those from A.  However, throughout this process, no animal has given birth to an animal of a different species.  Group B is the same species as A, C as B, D as C and E as D.  However, E and A are different species.  There is nothing hypothetical about this example.  Instances have been clearly documented.  Hopefully this shows how what I said is not illogical.</p>
<p>The other idea you misunderstand is &#8220;transitional species&#8221;. As you should be able to see, Groups B, C, and D could all be seen as &#8220;transitional&#8221; between A and E.  The canard of &#8220;no transitional species&#8221; is repeated so often by creationists, and is so patently untrue I suspect people must have an idea that a &#8220;transitional&#8221; will look like something with a fish head and and a bird tail.  In a sense, all fossils (all organsims, really) are transitional: they are intermediate in appearance between their ancestors and their descendents.  However, here is a (only partial) list of prominent transitional fossils:</p>
<p><a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils' rel='nofollow'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils</a></p>
<p>You statement that &#8220;all the evidence points to a young earth&#8221; is simply wrong, that&#8217;s all I can say for the moment.  It always saddens me to see how many people feel that, in order to maintain their faith, they must live in an enforced ignorance about basic facts regarding the world they inhabit.  I think it would do them well to heed the words of St. Augustine of Hippo from the 5th century:</p>
<p>&#8220;It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are.&#8221;</p>
<p>If you truly believe the earth is God&#8217;s creation, then I don&#8217;t see why you would foreswear examining it as avidly, and with the same sense of humility and discovery, as you examine what you believe are His holy scriptures.  Is the world a lesser creation of God than the Bible?
</p>
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		<title>by: Daniel Chaney</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/04/28/evolution-and-ethics-2/#comment-128511</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 20:15:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/04/28/evolution-and-ethics-2/#comment-128511</guid>
					<description>lutesuite,

You are correct, the article simply is a good example of change within a species.

You said, "However, evolution does not postulate that creatures give birth to creatures of a different species from themselves, at any point."

Yet you also said, "However, the evidence from the fossil record, patterns of anatomical resemblances between species, and especially molecular genetics unequivocally show that these changes have occurred, and that all creatures that have ever lived share common ancestry."

If your first statement is true, and creatures do not give birth to creatures of a different species, then your second statement is false. If all creatures share a common ancestry, then at some point a creature of one species would have to either give birth to or become a different species. This is scientifically and logically impossible. The common ancestry you believe in would require that the plethora of species present today came from a single species present in the past, yet you already stated that creatures do not give birth to creatures of a different species.

I believe that the earth is a little over 6,000 years old. I believe this because not only does the Bible say it, but all the evidence points to a young earth. The only way that the fossil record would prove change from one species to another would be if a transitional form was found. However, it is widely known that either no such form exists, or it has just not been found. Until it is found, there is no evidence to support the belief in speciation (meaning change from one species to another).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lutesuite,</p>
<p>You are correct, the article simply is a good example of change within a species.</p>
<p>You said, &#8220;However, evolution does not postulate that creatures give birth to creatures of a different species from themselves, at any point.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yet you also said, &#8220;However, the evidence from the fossil record, patterns of anatomical resemblances between species, and especially molecular genetics unequivocally show that these changes have occurred, and that all creatures that have ever lived share common ancestry.&#8221;</p>
<p>If your first statement is true, and creatures do not give birth to creatures of a different species, then your second statement is false. If all creatures share a common ancestry, then at some point a creature of one species would have to either give birth to or become a different species. This is scientifically and logically impossible. The common ancestry you believe in would require that the plethora of species present today came from a single species present in the past, yet you already stated that creatures do not give birth to creatures of a different species.</p>
<p>I believe that the earth is a little over 6,000 years old. I believe this because not only does the Bible say it, but all the evidence points to a young earth. The only way that the fossil record would prove change from one species to another would be if a transitional form was found. However, it is widely known that either no such form exists, or it has just not been found. Until it is found, there is no evidence to support the belief in speciation (meaning change from one species to another).
</p>
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		<title>by: lutesuite</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/04/28/evolution-and-ethics-2/#comment-128484</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 16:02:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/04/28/evolution-and-ethics-2/#comment-128484</guid>
					<description>Daniel,

That's a common misunderstanding. As it so happens, speciation events have been directly observed and documented in the scientific literature, as shown here:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

One of the most interesting examples of speciation is the population of cichlid fish found in three large lakes in Malawi, that have proven to be the equivalent of a natural "laboratory" of evolutionary processes:

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Publications/ZooGoer/1998/3/depthscichlidfishes.cfm

Now,  your response might be that this is still just shows "changes within kind" and does not prove the larger scale changes that evolution describes.  However, evolution does not postulate that creatures give birth to creatures of a different species from themselves, at any point.  The more pronounced changes that have occurred at the the level above species require a timescale too large to be directly observed during a human lifetime.  However, the evidence from the fossil record, patterns of anatomical resemblances between species, and especially molecular genetics unequivocally show that these changes have occurred, and that all creatures that have ever lived share common ancestry.  It would take too much space to cover that evidence here, but if you're at all scientifically minded this article, though long and rather complicated, covers the evidence quite thoroughly:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

Now, of course, if you're one of those people who believe the earth is only 6000 years old, then you have even more serious problems in your scientific understanding that need to be addressed....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a common misunderstanding. As it so happens, speciation events have been directly observed and documented in the scientific literature, as shown here:</p>
<p><a href='http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html' rel='nofollow'>http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html</a></p>
<p>One of the most interesting examples of speciation is the population of cichlid fish found in three large lakes in Malawi, that have proven to be the equivalent of a natural &#8220;laboratory&#8221; of evolutionary processes:</p>
<p><a href='http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Publications/ZooGoer/1998/3/depthscichlidfishes.cfm' rel='nofollow'>http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Publications/ZooGoer/1998/3/depthscichlidfishes.cfm</a></p>
<p>Now,  your response might be that this is still just shows &#8220;changes within kind&#8221; and does not prove the larger scale changes that evolution describes.  However, evolution does not postulate that creatures give birth to creatures of a different species from themselves, at any point.  The more pronounced changes that have occurred at the the level above species require a timescale too large to be directly observed during a human lifetime.  However, the evidence from the fossil record, patterns of anatomical resemblances between species, and especially molecular genetics unequivocally show that these changes have occurred, and that all creatures that have ever lived share common ancestry.  It would take too much space to cover that evidence here, but if you&#8217;re at all scientifically minded this article, though long and rather complicated, covers the evidence quite thoroughly:</p>
<p><a href='http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/' rel='nofollow'>http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/</a></p>
<p>Now, of course, if you&#8217;re one of those people who believe the earth is only 6000 years old, then you have even more serious problems in your scientific understanding that need to be addressed&#8230;.
</p>
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		<title>by: Daniel Chaney</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/04/28/evolution-and-ethics-2/#comment-128380</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 03:34:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/04/28/evolution-and-ethics-2/#comment-128380</guid>
					<description>lutesuite.

Everyone knows that mutations (changes within a species) do indeed occur. However, evolution (changes from one species to another) do not occur. If all Darwin was teaching was mutations, then there would be no problem, but that was not what he was teaching.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>lutesuite.</p>
<p>Everyone knows that mutations (changes within a species) do indeed occur. However, evolution (changes from one species to another) do not occur. If all Darwin was teaching was mutations, then there would be no problem, but that was not what he was teaching.
</p>
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		<title>by: Mike Riccardi</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/04/28/evolution-and-ethics-2/#comment-127693</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/04/28/evolution-and-ethics-2/#comment-127693</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;Whether or not Genesis was responsible for these things, clearly it was not sufficient to prevent them.&lt;/i&gt;

That's exactly what the Bible teaches, and precisely why we need Christ:

For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. -- Gal 3:21-24

Not even the perfect law of God could save us because of the deadness and sinfulness of our flesh. But rebirth and new life is proclaimed in Jesus Christ. Turn from your self-sufficiency, renounce your foundationless claim to righteousness, and run in faith to Jesus Christ for justification!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Whether or not Genesis was responsible for these things, clearly it was not sufficient to prevent them.</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s exactly what the Bible teaches, and precisely why we need Christ:</p>
<p>For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. &#8212; Gal 3:21-24</p>
<p>Not even the perfect law of God could save us because of the deadness and sinfulness of our flesh. But rebirth and new life is proclaimed in Jesus Christ. Turn from your self-sufficiency, renounce your foundationless claim to righteousness, and run in faith to Jesus Christ for justification!
</p>
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		<title>by: lutesuite</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/04/28/evolution-and-ethics-2/#comment-127559</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 01:19:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/04/28/evolution-and-ethics-2/#comment-127559</guid>
					<description>Even if this article's claims were accurate, they would still be irrelevent.  The human misuses of a scientific theory have no bearing on its validity.  Does the fact that Einstein's theory of relativity allowed the creation of the atomic bomb mean the theory is false and should be abandoned?

As it so happens, though, this article is entirely misconceived.  The crucial point that is misunderstood is the nature of Darwin's discovery of the principle of natural selection.  For once, the creationists are giving Darwin more credit than he deserves.  The fact that the physical characteristics of living things can be affected by selective breeding has been known since prehistoric times.  It is the entire basis of agriculture and animal husbandry.  The great insight that Darwin achieved was the realization that the natural environment can cause the same type of change without human intervention.  It is interesting to note that Hitler's Mein Kampf contains over fifty references to "God" "Almighty" and "Creator", but not a single reference to Darwin.  Hitler's evil and perverted philosophy owed nothing to Darwin's idea of natural selection, and was instead an application of artificial selection, of which, as I mentioned, mankind was already aware for millenia. 

It's interesting that at the moment the most prominent proponent of this line of argument is Ben Stein, the Republican advocate of conservative supply side economics.  Is he not aware that capitalists have historically been among the most vociferous advocates of "social darwinism" (which has nothing to do with Darwin).  If Stein is going to blame Darwin for the Holocaust, will he also give Darwin credit for the economic views he espouses?

I find it particularly striking that this article blames the decline of morality to the abandonment of belief in Genesis.  Mankind had Genesis for 3000 years before "Origin of Species."  Was humanity any more moral back then?  Was there no such thing as genocide back then?  (Hint: look up the Canaanites and Amalekites in your Old Testament.)  When we had Genesis, we also had slavery, witch trials, Inquisitions, and burnings for "crimes" like  homosexuality or believing the earth revolved around the sun.  Whether or not Genesis was responsible for these things, clearly it was not sufficient to prevent them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even if this article&#8217;s claims were accurate, they would still be irrelevent.  The human misuses of a scientific theory have no bearing on its validity.  Does the fact that Einstein&#8217;s theory of relativity allowed the creation of the atomic bomb mean the theory is false and should be abandoned?</p>
<p>As it so happens, though, this article is entirely misconceived.  The crucial point that is misunderstood is the nature of Darwin&#8217;s discovery of the principle of natural selection.  For once, the creationists are giving Darwin more credit than he deserves.  The fact that the physical characteristics of living things can be affected by selective breeding has been known since prehistoric times.  It is the entire basis of agriculture and animal husbandry.  The great insight that Darwin achieved was the realization that the natural environment can cause the same type of change without human intervention.  It is interesting to note that Hitler&#8217;s Mein Kampf contains over fifty references to &#8220;God&#8221; &#8220;Almighty&#8221; and &#8220;Creator&#8221;, but not a single reference to Darwin.  Hitler&#8217;s evil and perverted philosophy owed nothing to Darwin&#8217;s idea of natural selection, and was instead an application of artificial selection, of which, as I mentioned, mankind was already aware for millenia. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting that at the moment the most prominent proponent of this line of argument is Ben Stein, the Republican advocate of conservative supply side economics.  Is he not aware that capitalists have historically been among the most vociferous advocates of &#8220;social darwinism&#8221; (which has nothing to do with Darwin).  If Stein is going to blame Darwin for the Holocaust, will he also give Darwin credit for the economic views he espouses?</p>
<p>I find it particularly striking that this article blames the decline of morality to the abandonment of belief in Genesis.  Mankind had Genesis for 3000 years before &#8220;Origin of Species.&#8221;  Was humanity any more moral back then?  Was there no such thing as genocide back then?  (Hint: look up the Canaanites and Amalekites in your Old Testament.)  When we had Genesis, we also had slavery, witch trials, Inquisitions, and burnings for &#8220;crimes&#8221; like  homosexuality or believing the earth revolved around the sun.  Whether or not Genesis was responsible for these things, clearly it was not sufficient to prevent them.
</p>
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		<title>by: Kelvin</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/04/28/evolution-and-ethics-2/#comment-127461</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:03:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/04/28/evolution-and-ethics-2/#comment-127461</guid>
					<description>These recent articles have been great. Is there a book that goes into more detail about this subject of naturalism and Christianity?

Thanks,
Kelvin</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These recent articles have been great. Is there a book that goes into more detail about this subject of naturalism and Christianity?</p>
<p>Thanks,<br />
Kelvin
</p>
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