(By Nathan Busenitz)
Having considered the nature of tongues in previous posts, today we will look at the nature of New Testament prophecy. Like tongues, we will find that the contemporary charismatic practice of prophecy fails to match up to the New Testament description of the gift.
(This post is, again, in an annotated form — coming from a 2007 Shepherds’ Conference seminar on this topic.)
PROPHECY
The Continuationist Definition: The gift of prophecy is generally defined as a non-authoritative, often-incorrect, human report of true, error-free revelation from God. It is fundamentally different than OT prophecy, which had to be 100% accurate (cf. Deut. 13:1–5; 18:15–22). It is not canonical and does not replace the all-sufficient Scripture, but rather gives specific information regarding the application of Scripture in daily living (cf. [Wayne] Grudem, Kingdom and the Power, 81).
Prophecy is “the human report of divine revelation. It is this that distinguishes prophecy from teaching. Teaching is always based on an inscripturated text; prophecy is always based on spontaneous revelation” ([Sam] Storms, Four Views [of the Miraculous Gifts], 207).
Yet, “prophecy is occasionally fallible” because of the human agency involved. Every prophecy involves (1) divine revelation, (2) human reception and perception, (3) human interpretation, and (4) human application. It is in these human aspects where fallibility enters in. Thus, “in terms of revelation alone, the New Testament prophetic gift does not differ from the Old Testament prophetic gift” (Storms, Four Views, 207).
Biblical examples of human error in NT prophecy include the disciples at Tyre (Acts 21:4) and the prophet Agabus (Acts 21:11) (cf. Storms, Four Views, 208).
Although NT prophecy does not carry with it intrinsic divine authority (like OT prophecy) it is still edifying to the church, just as the gift of teaching does not carry intrinsic divine authority yet is edifying to the church (insofar as it is accurate) (cf. Storms, Four Views, 209).
The accuracy of a prophecy varies in accordance with the measure of the gift and the faith of the one who is prophesying (Rom. 12:6) (cf. Storms, Four Views, 209). Romans 12:6 teaches that prophesy takes place “in proportion to [one’s] faith” meaning that the accuracy and frequency of prophecy can vary depending on how much faith one has been given (cf. [Jack] Deere, Surprised by the Power of the Spirit, 65).
“Finally, one should avoid looking to or depending on the gift of prophecy for making routine daily decisions in life. God does not intend for the gift of prophecy to be used as the usual way we make decisions regarding his will” (Storms, Four Views, 211).
Continuationists admit that people can rely too much on the subjective guidance of prophecy. “Usually this has been because they did not realize that prophecy in the Church age is not the word of God, and can frequently contain errors” (Grudem, Kingdom and Power, 84).
“There is almost uniform testimony from all sections of the charismatic movement that prophecy is imperfect and impure, and will contain elements which are not to be obeyed or trusted” (Grudem, The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today, 110).
The Cessationist Response
The Bible never explicitly or overtly distinguishes New Testament prophecy from Old Testament prophecy. “If New Testament prophecy in distinction from Old Testament prophecy was not infallible in its pronouncements, this would have constituted an absolutely fundamental contrast between the Old Testament institution and the New Testament institution. To suppose that a difference as important as this would be passed over without explicit comment is unthinkable” ([Sam] Waldron, To Be Continued?, 65).
Continuationists “attempt to imply the fallibility of New Testament prophecy by showing that it was to be evaluated (1 Cor. 14:29; 1 Thess. 5:19 – 21) on the basis of Scripture. The problem is that Old Testament prophecy was also evaluated on the basis of Scripture (previous revelation). Deuteronomy 13:1–5 makes this patent. Clearly, this fact did not mean true, Old Testament prophecy was less than fallible” (Waldron, To Be Continued?, 66).
“Continuationists note that the prophets were subordinate to the Apostles of Christ. This is said in order to imply their fallibility. It is certainly true that the New Testament prophets were inferior in rank to the Apostles. This is suggested, for instance, by the consistent New Testament order in which apostles are mentioned first and prophets second (1 Cor. 12:29; Eph. 2:20; 3:5; 4:11). This subordinate position does not, however, imply their fallibility. As we have seen, the Old Testament prophets were distinctly inferior to Moses in the place they held in the nation of Israel (Num. 12:1–8). This, however, did not imply their fallibility” (cf. Walrdon, To Be Continued?, 66).
“It may be argued that the New Testament prophets were of a different order than the Theocratic prophets designated by the phrase, ‘Samuel and all the prophets’ (Acts 3:24; 13:20; Heb. 11:32). But then so also were Abel, Enoch, Moses, and Jesus—all of whom the Bible describes as infallible prophets (Luke 11:51; Jude 1:14; Acts 3:20–23). Not just the Theocratic prophets, but all other true, biblical prophets were regarded as infallible in their pronouncements. Indeed, as we have seen, such infallibility was basic, indispensable, and necessary to being a true prophet (Deut. 18:15–22)” (Waldron, To Be Continued?, 66).
To say that Agabus erred in his prophecy is to apply undue woodenness to Agabus’s words. If such were applied to other parts of the Bible, such would uncover errors in many places were conservative Continuationists would not want to find them. Moreover, neither Luke nor Paul nor anyone else criticizes Agabus’s prophecy (cf. Waldron, To Be Continued?, 67).
“Continuationists argue that contemporary prophets receive a revelation or vision from God, but are not preserved from garbling the message when they utter it. Strictly speaking, this would mean they are seers and not prophets, a distinction nowhere made in the Bible. It would also mean they are false prophets (Deut. 18:15–22). Nowhere does the Bible make a provision for a well-meaning seer who garbles his message” (Waldron, To Be Continued?, 67).
“None of the attempts to find a distinction between Old and New Testament prophecy are viable. It is undeniable that the key distinction at which the defender of Continuationism is aiming is simply absent from the New Testament” (Waldron, To Be Continued?, 68).
On the positive side, the New Testament uses identical terminology (side-by-side) to refer to both Old and New Testament prophets and prophecy. OT prophets are mentioned in Acts 2:16; 3:24, 25; 10:43; 13:27, 40; 15:15; 24:14; 26:22, 27; and 28:23. References to NT prophets and prophecy are interspersed without any distinction or comment (Acts 2:17–18; 7:37; 11:27, 28; 13:1; 15:32; 21:9–11) (cf. Waldron, To Be Continued?, 68).
Peter’s reference to Joel’s prophecy (in Acts 2:16 – 21) obliterates any distinction between OT prophecy and NT prophecy since the OT prophet Joel prophesied in the OT that in the New Covenant “your sons and daughters shall prophesy” with young men seeing visions and old men having dreams (cf. Waldron, To Be Continued?, 68).
The book of Revelation, which is clearly New Testament prophecy, brings a curse on any who add to what it has revealed (Rev. 1:3; 22:7, 10, 18, 19).
The NT explains that the New Covenant is better than the Old (Heb. 8:1–13; 2 Cor. 3:1–6). But this would be strange if the prophecy associated with the New Covenant is actually inferior to that of the Old.
“There is not a single passage in the New Testament where the biblical terminology related to prophecy or prophesying refers to anything but the inspired reception and utterance of direct revelation. There is not one reference that differs from the Old Testament identification of the prophet as the spokesman and mouth of God” (Waldron, To Be Continued?, 69).
“Based on the description of the prophet in the New Testament no one can demonstrate that they are a prophet apart from the ability to predict the future. The predictions are not vague, general statements, but rather quite specific predictions that may be verified within reasonable time. They must also receive direct, immediate revelation” ([Thomas] Edgar, Satisfied [by the Promise of the Spirit], 84).
Grammatically, the “prophets” of Ephesians 2:20 can only refer to NT prophets. Like the apostles they were foundational to the establishment of the church. And, like the apostles, they are no longer on the scene (cf. Waldron, To Be Continued?, 76).
New Testament prophets were, as seen from above, both infallible and authoritative in their prophecies. Thus, were NT prophecy still available today, it too would have to be both infallible and authoritative.
Romans 12:6 is better understood as “corresponding to the faith” meaning that prophetic utterances must be tested by the truth of the faith (cf. 1 Thess. 5). Therefore, this verse could be saying ‘prophesy in accordance with the doctrine we believe.’ Such an instruction would fit well with other admonitions regarding prophecy. In addition, regarding the next several gifts listed in Romans 12, Paul instructs that they are to be exercised in the sphere of ministry corresponding to the respective gift. It is likely then that this is instruction to exercise prophecy in the sphere appropriate to prophecy: ‘the faith’ (Edgar, Satisfied, 111).
“The New Testament offers no evidence anywhere of a qualitative difference in gifts given by the Spirit of God. This is as we might expect since God gives perfect gifts (James 1:16–17). All are described in the same way. We have no example of any qualitatively inferior or fallible gift or of any failure by any Christian who attempted to exercise a gift” (Edgar, Satisfied, 114).
SUMMARY: New Testament prophets are to be held to the same standard as Old Testament prophets since the NT writers make no attempt to distinguish between the two. Thus, the content of their prophecy (whether foretelling or forth-telling) must accurately convey the true, error-free revelation they are receiving from God. If their prophecy is shown to be incorrect, it is also shown to not be from God. Moreover, now that we have the completed “prophetic Word,” additional revelation from God is no longer needed for the present age.
I’m enjoying the series.
“New Testament prophets are to be held to the same standard as Old Testament prophets since the NT writers make no attempt to distinguish between the two.”
This is the thing that’s always driven me nuts about those claiming to be modern day “prophets” and yet they boast of getting it right much of the time.
If a false prophet gets it right once, he was “stone worthy” back in the day. Being a prophet is a job with very little … nay … no margin for error, because God makes none.
Good day everyone. I am enjoying this series. Perhaps these topics don’t interest everyone, but because of experiences I’ve had in a charasmatic church and the questions those experiences have raised, I am pleased to have these insights to read, study and pray about. There are not many people in the “traditional” churches in my community to discuss these things with.
The charasmatic church I attended taught that the NT-style prophetic message was often for an individual. I grew concerned when the only reason (it seemed) that people came to services was to be the one to “get the word.” When the prophetic gift began to “operate,” you could just tell that people were desperate to be the one(s) singled out to be “spoken over” and disappointed when they weren’t. (I was actually rebuked once because I refused to go forward and “receive” my word. I didn’t know/trust the visiting person and didn’t want to “receive” anything from him. Yes, I am also the one in those services who wouldn’t allow just anyone to lay their hands on me.) We were taught that the phrophetic word often came through tongues in services. The messages were required to be interpreted. Those messages were always for the church, and often corrective in nature. It wasn’t future-telling; it was more instructive. Those are expereinces I just cataloged as “I’m not so sure about this.”
Since I have left that church, I am searching for Scriptural answers to these questions I have. If there is no need for NT prophecy, what do I do with those experiences? Are they demonic? Are they only from the minds of men? Diane, are you out there today?
Recently, I have begun to meet with a friend for weekly prayer. We study the Scriptures with concordance and dictionary at hand. We both hunger after the Truth of the Word. (I have been printing Pulpit articles to take to her.) We pray for our pastors and churches and families. We take communion together. We sing. Often during our praise and prayer time, my friend prays in tongues while I pray in English. She has even sung in tongues, and I must say, it is quite beautiful. We ofen feel like we receive instructions from the Lord. For example, last week, I really felt like I heard the Lord speak “Break the un-holy alliance without damaging/hurting the person.” My friend confimed this with a Scripture (Sorry , it’s in my journal at home.) In my heart of hearts I knew the exact person and the reason for this. I had been involved in a conversation that crticized our pastor. Long story short…I knew it was wrong. I knew I allowed my flesh to be suckered into it, and I knew it had to end before it went any further. I repented. I perceived this “word” as loving correction from God..to protect me from trouble down the road. Is that prophetic? Am I off track? Are these experiences of God, flesh, or are they demonic? Would Satan encourage me to make a decision that would lead to righteousness?
I feel caught in the middle of the two postions discussed in these articles. I read those Scriptures and I get it. I also know some of the expereinces I’ve had and the people involved. I also know that spiritual abuse is alive and well in many charasmatic circles. Seen it for myself. I’ve been skeptical, wanting to understand God’s Truth. I also want to understand and qualify what I’ve seen and expereinced that didn’t seem kooky-the stuff that seems real.
Thanks for listening. Respond only if the Lord leads you. I know that many of you are pastors with whom I wouldn’t ordinarily get the opportunity to speak. WHAT AN HONOR AND BLESSING FROM GOD TO HAVE THIS DISCUSSION. I know that this is a journey. Even if I don’t get answers, I will keep searching in love.
Sarah C.
I feel caught in the middle of the two postions discussed in these articles. I read those Scriptures and I get it. I also know some of the expereinces I’ve had and the people involved.
Sarah, I find your willingness to seek out and submit to the intent of the Scriptures truly refreshing. In regards to the above remark, I would just exhort you to always rely on the authority of Scripture over experience.
Yes, Mike, I know. My prayer is that God either leads me to the answers to my questions about these “experiences” or gives me peace about not understanding. I trust His Word completely. Unfortunatley (in some cases) I am one of those NEED TO UNDERSTAND IT people. Maybe that’s why these articles and responses are so helpful to me—many people needing and wanting to know His Truth. I can remember being in many services asking, to myself, “What is this, Lord? Is this You?” I still, after 10 years, have those questions. May God use my tenatious curiosity for His Glory!
Sarah C.
That is such a mature thing to be thinking and wondering, and something I pray all professing evangelicals would be asking themselves during every church service.
If I was asked to comment, I would be forced to say that those experiences “weren’t Him,” as you put it. If all that is written in these posts is correct — which I believe them to be, as they are the most astute collections of thought on this subject that I’ve ever seen — we have to come to the conclusion that the miraculous gifts have ceased in the apostolic age, and that no one possesses these spiritual gifts anymore. Those professing otherwise are either deceived or deceiving, or both. That’s the necessary conclusion if you accept what has been written here, as I do.
It’s right to be curious Sarah. Sure, the secret things are the Lord’s, but we must not underestimate the degree to which God wants to make Himself known. Indeed, to make Himself known among the nations so He will be glorified for all that He is… is God’s ultimate purpose (Rom 9:22ff). So it is right to seek Him out by faith and desire that He fill up the holes in your understanding. Jesus came for that very reason, and we have the Bible for that very reason (Heb 1:1-3).
And thanks, Nate, for posting these. The flesh in me wants to say “You should be proud of yourself,” but what I really mean is you should be grateful to God that He’s used you to help so many people understand a very difficult aspect of His revelation.
Sarah,
I want you to know that this is coming from someone who can empathize with your position. I went to charismatic churches in the early 80s for several years. I’ve had them lay hands on me for healing, to speak in tongues (which I never did), and I’ve seen them attempt to cast out ‘demons’. I met many sweet and sincere people both Pentecostal and charismatic. I’ve even met some of the ‘big’ names (Copeland, Robison, Wimber). However, I can say with confidence that God led me out of the charismatic movement. He did not do so through speaking to my inner man or through promptings or new revelations. He opened my eyes to Scripture and allowed me to better compare the teachings I heard to what the Bible says.
There are a number of aspects in your response that could be, and indeed need to be addressed. Unfortunately, to do so adequately would take several articles or possibly a book. From experience, I would say that by far, the majority of instances for a ‘word of prophecy’ or ‘word of knowledge’ (even with tongues and interpretation) are “from the minds of men” as you put it. We often have thoughts pop into our head, even lost people experience this, but to attribute this to God is not biblical. As you stated, most often the ‘revelation’ was instructive, not predictive. However, to allow that God is still doing this, in fact, that He needs to do this is to say that Scripture is not sufficient. The Bible says that it is sufficient to equip us for every good work (2 Tim. 3:16-17). Would you say that to know God’s will, and to do it, would be a ‘good work’? Then the Scripture says that it is sufficient to equip you for this.
Part of what you are speaking about is whether we receive ‘extra-biblical’ communication (revelation) from God (the prophecies/tongues in service, or the time you thought God spoke to you about the relationship and receiving ‘instruction’ from God). It is very common in Evangelicalism today to think that God ‘speaks’ to our inner man, our mind, our heart, or through promptings, or through circumstances, or through an ‘inner’ peace, or He gives messages to others who then relate what God has to say to us, and some even say that He has spoken audibly to them. The problem with all of this is that it is unbiblical. No where in the Bible did God speak to people through an inner voice, or promptings, or by circumstances… and nothing in Scripture says that He will do so for the Christian.
A second aspect of what you are saying is about knowing God’s will. This is the aspect of the personal words that you referenced and the time that you thought God spoke to you about the relationship, and receiving direct instructions from the Lord. I cannot go into the kind of detail that this really requires, but there are two aspects to God’s will, the decretive/sovereign will, by which God has ordained all that will happen, including every circumstance of our lives. The second is the prescriptive will that which God has told us how He wants us to live. A third popular aspect is understood as the ‘individual will’ of God. That is exactly what God wants you to do in different circumstances, situations, relationships… Deut. 29:29 says that the ‘secret things belong to God, but that which has been revealed is for us and our children forever’ (not an exact quote). Moses was not referring to prophecy, but to God’s word. What has been revealed to us is revealed in Scripture (both decretive and prescriptive), and nowhere in Scripture does it say that God will reveal His hidden will for our individual lives. God does lead us providentially and He does speak to us, in Scripture. To seek this hidden will for personal direction/communication is actually more akin to divination, no matter how spiritual it feels.
You say that you and your friend take communion together. Scripturally, I don’t see the support for one or two people taking the Lord’s Supper apart from a local fellowship (unless there is no local church). In Scripture it was always in context of the gathering of a local body. Secondly, is what your friend doing (praying and singing in tongues) biblical? I don’t mean does it sound pretty or make her feel better or edified or does it seem spiritual? Is it biblical? From the recent articles about tongues, and from Scripture, I would say ‘no’.
I’ve met nice, sincere, ‘godly’ people who were wrong. In fact, I probably would have fallen in that category myself (and may still in some areas).
If you go to:
http://www.svchapel.org
Gary Gilley has some good articles on God’s will, mysticism, charismatics, and such under Resources.
Your brother in Christ,
Michael
Michael C., Thank you for your response. I hear Truth and correction in love in your words. Thank you for not condeming me. The responses you gave made sense to me. (Not that the articles themsleves haven’t.) Sometimes it just has to be simple for me.
I believe my friend believes that the tongues are Scriptural. I didn’t have enough understanding (until now) to refute. It will still take more study with these articles and Scriptures for the “damage” that has been done to be undone. It’s like re-training. There’s so much here for me to digest. But the direction you’ve taken me is where I wanted to go. Yes, the Word is sufficient.
I wish I could communicate my thanks for your help. I suppose I should not say, “Thank God for leading you to respond to me.” Instead, “Thank God for His Word which illuminates every aspect of our lives.” I will take all of this in as I continue to study.
Humbled in correction, but grateful for truth.
Sarah C.
Dear Sarah,
” We ofen feel like we receive instructions from the Lord. For example, last week, I really felt like I heard the Lord speak…”
I can see your sincerity and honesty in your letter Sarah, and you are on a journey. A bit like the blind man in Jn 9 and 10 who the Good Shepherd of our souls led out of Pharisaism. He lead him out of a system of works into a relationship based only on faith.
But where Jesus says ‘they will hear my voice’, He is not talking about an inner voice. His word, His voice is the written word of God preserved for us. He will give us revelation and understanding based on that voice, amen?
In my past I used to do a lot of singing to God with my guitar, singing in tongues and in english, praying in tongues etc, singing worship songs or just my own words of love to Him….but it was all for the purpose of getting into a quiet state of mind so I could hear Him speak to me. I would rely upon Ps 46:10 as most charismatics and now even many evangelicals do. This verse is even used by new agers to justify becoming still in our minds so as to hear god speak…small g intentional!!
All the singing and the tongues(false at that ) do is to bring you into an open, calm , walls of discernment down place. In that state of being still, yes , if you listen you will feel many things…maybe, or nothing at all. But if you persist in this way, and keep crying out to hear a voice be shown something…then you are not in faith but wanting to move or live by sight. So as Michael C said, it is divination! And I was really good at it….sadly.
In my gentle opinion sister, if there is any truth in what you heard….it could be that you should break off from your tongue talking friend. Until you make a clean break with the works of sight, sound, hear, ….wanting to hear or see or whatever, you cannot walk in faith in His word. There’s a mixture going on. It is very seductive I know. I am not wanting to be to hard on you, cos I know what the pain of all this confusion feels like.
In normal prayer for you my sister.
Dennis
My comment concerns something from the insightful note of Michael’s:
“No where in the Bible did God speak to people through an inner voice, or promptings, or by circumstances… and nothing in Scripture says that He will do so for the Christian.”
What about Paul saying the Holy Spirit forbade them to go preach in certain areas? Also, I think of David writing, “Thy word I have hid in my heart, that I might not sin against Thee.” And we have that word of the Old Testament quoted in the New Testament, not always word for word, as it is coming from the Holy Spirit.
When I have a thought to take action, if it does not contradict the word of God, I consider it God ordering my steps as scripture says. I have all the steps (possibilities) before me, and I want to choose His way according to His word. I am grateful He reminds me of His word to direct me of His way as I go. I am not looking for an experience. A friend will invite you along when you are not looking to go. Jesus calls me friend. He invites me to go where I had not thought of going. We are commanded in scripture to encourage one another on to good works. Why wouldn’t the Holy Spirit in us do the same? Is it prideful to think that we can come up with good works to do on our own without the Holy Spirit’s guidance? Our good works were prepared in advance for us to do. I think our loving God who reveals Himself through His word and the prophets now uses the Holy Spirit to speak His scripture to our hearts to direct us. When Elijah had God’s word, he also watched for the cloud rising and took action. Listening to God’s word in my heart directs my steps He has ordered. God’s truth, His word, hidden in our hearts is key.
We know Satan is a copier, not a creator. He lies and distorts the original truth. If the occult has an inferior power, it is because Satan has polluted something God created. Believers have the Holy Spirit as our counselor, and Satan speaks his lies too. Why silence the Holy Spirit and give Satan full reign in our minds? Could we recite the scriptures constantly? No, but we are commanded to think about whatever is good, noble, trustworthy… We are to be doers not just hearers. Let’s not “throw the baby out with the bathwater” because Satan has a distorted imitation of the Holy Spirit.
Though I am not from a charasmatic background, I have known many people of that faith, and I continue to encounter the false teaching in so many crumbling lives. I consider it a duty of love to rebuke, correct and teach the truth in love. Not always a fun task, but God is faithful to equip His saints. I truly believe the charismatic movement is from the pit of hell as it has done so much damage in peoples’ lives and in the testimony of truth to the unbelieving world.
How I thank God for this website and all your postings!
I’ve been in too many churches where these “prophets” start their spiels. “I have a word from the Lord for this church…” funny thing is, it’s always the same message..revival will begine here, this will be a megachurch, etc. etc…
But we have a more sure word of prophecy (or ‘the prophetic word confirmed’)
2 Peter 1:19
Amen!
“now that we have the completed “prophetic Word,” additional revelation from God is no longer needed for the present age.”
I find this statement particularly interesting. The prophetic Word, or the Scripture, seems to teach that the gifts will endure throughout the church age. If this is true then we can believe all we want that they are “no longer for the present age,” and still be wrong. I think the pin point passage regarding the whole “duration of the gifts” debate is 1st Corinthians 13. Paul ties the duration of the gifts to the coming of the Perfect. When the perfect comes (and only at the moment) the gifts will be unnecissary. To quote Wayne Grudem on 1st Corinthians 13, “Here, then, we find a definate statement about the time of the cessation of imperfect gifts such as prophecy. They will be made useless or pass away when Christ returns. And this would imply that they will continue to exist and be useful for the church all through the church age, including today, and right up to the day when Christ returns.” I believe this view is also supported elsewhere in the book of Corinthians. Example, In chapter one verse seven of first Corinthians, Paul writes “You are not lacking in any spiritual gift as you await the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ.” The word for gift here is of course the Greek, charismata. Grudem also comments on this passage “This suggest that Paul saw the gifts as a temporary provision made to equip believers for the ministry until the Lord returned. This verse provides a close parrallel to the thought of 1st Corinthians 13:8-13, where prophecy and knowledge (and no doubt tongues) are seen, similarly, as necessary until Christs return but unnecessary beyond that time. ” D.A. Carson says concerning the meaning of the perfect, “Perfection entails the state of affairs where my knowledge is in some ways comparable with God’s present knowledge of me. ‘Then i shall know fully even as I am fully known’” How could we conclude that the perfect in 1st Corinthians 13 has already arrived? Grudem in his book “Prophecy in the New Testament and Today,” makes the strong arguement that the language in 1st Corinthians 13 is clearly pointing to a future event with the Lord. He states, “The phrase ‘see face to face’ is used several times in the Old Testament to refer to seeing God personally. See, for example, Genesis 32:30 and Judges 6:22 (exactly the same Greek wording of 1st Corinthians 13:12) […] So the phrase ‘face to face’ is used in the Old Testament to speak of seeing God personally – not fully or exhaustively, for no finite creature can ever do that, but personally and truly nonetheless. So when Paul says, ‘But then [we shall see] face to face,’ he clearly means ‘Then we shall see God face to face’.” I think the whole counsel of Scripture supports the continuation of gifts such as prophecy. Joel 2 indicates that the gift would be around up until the time the sun is darkened and the moon is turned to blood, an event which we know is yet to take place.
I feel like the whole debate as to “what the gifts are,” is a rabit trail cessationist like to go on. The reasoning is something like this, “If i can conclude that the way it was used in the New Testament seems different than what I see today, then I can conclude the gift doesnt exist.” A key element is missing though, and that is Scriptural support for such a claim (that the gift(s) have ceased). It is doubtless that there are abuses in the church today (they took place in the first century as well!) but the abuse of a gift should never dictate its Cessation. If you see an abuse correct the abuse, but dont quench the Spirit by saying its not a vaild manifestation. Joel Osteen has a great gift for teaching, but alot of what he says is heretical, He abuses what he has been given and leads people astray. Now it would be absolute foolishness for me to argue that the gift of teaching had ceased based on his abuse of it. I’d like to hear some stong Biblical arguments from cessationist. One’s that dont involve hermeneutical gymnastics and simply let the text speak. I think we find that when we simply let the text speak, it doesnt say a word that would indicate the gifts cessation prior to the Second Coming. The same Complete Word of God which cessationist say strips modern day prophecy of its validity teaches its continuation until the Coming of Christ. We should then seek to let things be done “decently and in order,” rather than try and throw the whole baby out with the bath water.
When the Spirit of God is truly alive in a human being, there is evidence of supernatural fruit. John defines the authentic believer as one who practices righteousness and loves his brother (I John 3:10). Jesus too identified His family as those who “do the will of the Father” (Matthew 7:21 and 12:50), which will of course is to love as we have been loved (John 15:12). I think it’s not coincidental that the three continuationists Nate admires (John Piper, Wayne Grudem and C.J. Mahaney) are distinctively characterized by their gentleness, the strength of their faith, and their deep compassion for others. We are told in Hebrews 13:7 that we should follow the faith of leaders specifically in light of “the outcome of their conduct.”
It saddens me that so very many charismatics show little or no evidence of the Galatians 5 kind of fruit. But there are cessationists who fail that standard as well. It is very possible that God can speak clearly and sufficiently through “scripture only,” and also through other means (inner promptings, words from others, even an audible voice). The greater question is not really the one presented here, whether revelation has ceased or continues on. If in fact both persuasions have not prevented spiritual life and maturing, then perhaps we should be content to let them co-exist in the kingdom, and concentrate more on the deceptions that produce people who believe they know Christ and in fact do not.
“I’ve been in too many churches where these “prophets” start their spiels. “I have a word from the Lord for this church…” funny thing is, it’s always the same message..revival will begine here, this will be a megachurch, etc. etc…”
This my brother, is simply an example of someone who wasnt a prophet and thought that they were, not to be used as evidence for the cessation of the prophetic gift. I could share stories of times where the gift of prophecy was used just like the New Testament says it should be. Instances where non believers fell on their faces and realized that God was among them. Stories like these shouldnt carry any weight in this kind of discussion however. An encounter with a false prophet shouldnt lead you to believe God doesnt give true gifts of prophecy. What passage of Scripture would you show me to suggest otherwise?
I just wanted to comment on the last sentence in the Summary:
“Moreover, now that we have the completed “prophetic Word,” additional revelation from God is no longer needed for the present age.”
Whether or not prophecy is still an active gift, I am not sure that any of us would want to be deciding, for God, what is or is not needed any longer.
(1Co 12:21) And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
Dear “Student”,
As someone who left the Charismatic things I have always thought it strange that my cessationist friends would use “that which is perfect” to mean the completed canon of scripture. I would point out to them that it is speaking of when we see Him as He is , as 1Jn 3 points out.
You know, just today I have been turning all of these things over and over in my mind and lifting supplications to God for clarity.
I know that I myself abused the gifts…but I also experienced great blessing through their ministry from others at times.
God is not through with this in me…I am wanting to know the truth, but I have always had questions as some of the arguments against gifts today do not hold water for me.
Dennis
Dennis, I think the majority of the arguments are exposing the abuses of certain gifts. When it comes to arguments regarding the duration of the gifts, I think Cessationism comes up dry. When it comes to abuses however, I think we can agree. You yourself said you experienced this. When I have Cessationist come up to me and talk to me about all the abuses, I usually agree with everything they say. We should however seek to correct the abuses rather than just abandon the fact that the gifts are for today. All things ought to be done decently and in order. Some people have the “let all things be done,” part down and others, “decently and in order.” I think we should strive for both!
Blessings!
Dennis and Others, Thank you for your insights. I am thankful for truth and wisdom and loving corection from Brothers and Sisters. These “moves of the Spirit” are seductive. Yes, I can break all un-holy alliances. I will be able to speak with my tongue-talking friend in Truth and love. If the relationship ends, that’s a risk I am willing to take to plant this Seed in her life. Faith and the Word are sufficient.
Still so many questions. They make the journey interesting. I will be a life-long student. Dennis, God isn’t through with me yet on all this either. May we who have been in abusive churches pray for them, for the Light of His Glorious Truth to be revealed and true repentence(SP? sorry) to come forth. Twisting the Word is one of the Enemy’s favorite tactics. How many of us in charasmatic (and other) churches are/were victims!
Pulpit people, lives are being changed!
Sarah C.
1. No offense to anyone, but I’ve always wondered why it seems no one has ever dealt with this text when it comes to prophets:
1 Corinthians 14:28-38
28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
29Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
36Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command. 38If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.[a]
Now, personally, when I look at that, obvious to me that there were PROPHETS in the congregation…..and that they were not of the same stature as that of AGABUS, since he was on a NATIONALLY KNOWN LEVEL and whatever he said CAME TO PASS/100% accurate. No one seemed to have to weigh what he said. When he spoke, THEY ACTED without QUESTION….Acts 11:27-30
As another wisely phrased, “just as there were members of the body in Corinth who apparently were frequently used in the gift of the interpretation of tongues who were known as “interpreters,” so there were those who were frequently used in the gifts of prophecy and revelation who were considered “prophets.”
These would not be prophets in the same class as Old Testament prophets or even someone like Agabus in the New Testament (see Acts 11:28, Acts 21:10). Rather, their ministries would have been limited to their local church bodies.”
“Although there might be more than three such prophets present at a church gathering, again Paul placed limitations, specifically limiting prophetic ministry to “two or three prophets.” This again suggests that when the Spirit was giving spiritual gifts in a gathering, more than one person might yield to receiving those gifts. If this is not so, Paul’s instruction could result in the Spirit giving gifts that would never be enjoyed by the body, as he limited how many prophets could speak.”
“If there were more than three prophets present, the others, although restrained from speaking, could help by judging what was said. This also would indicate their ability to discern what the Spirit was saying and possibly imply that they could have yielded to the Spirit themselves to be used in the very gifts that were manifested through the other prophets.
Otherwise they could have only judged prophecies and revelations in a general way, by making certain they were in agreement with revelation God has already given (such as in Scripture), something any mature believer could do.”
“Paul stated that these prophets could all prophesy sequentially (see 1 Cor. 14:31) and that “the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets” (1 Cor. 14:32), indicating that each prophet could restrain himself from interrupting another, even when given a prophecy or revelation from the Spirit to share with the congregation. This shows that the Spirit might give gifts at the same time to several prophets present in a gathering, but each prophet could and should control when his revelations or prophecies were shared with the body.”
“This is also true concerning any utterance gift that might be manifested through any believer. If a person receives a message in tongues or prophecy from the Lord, he can hold it until the proper time in the gathering. It would be wrong to interrupt someone else’s prophecy or teaching to give your prophecy.”
When Paul stated, “you can all prophesy one by one” (1 Cor. 14:31), remember that he was speaking in the context of prophets who had received prophecies. Some have unfortunately taken Paul’s words out of context, saying that every believer can prophesy at every gathering of the body. The gift of prophecy is given as the Spirit wills.”
Curious why, however, the prophets in the Congregation of Corinth had to have theirs weighed or even with the risk of being ignored/being challenged by others unlike Agabus, who seemed to have 100% accuracy and was always heeded (Such as when he uttered a PREDICTIVE PROPHECY to PAUL:
Acts 21:10-11.
Moreover, regarding this issue of 100% accuracy, what do you do with verses on prophecy, seeming to describe how things such as NT prophecy was not infallible but had to be judged by others (1 Cor 14:29) was sometimes a mixture of good and bad (1 Thessalonians 5:21) and was such that it could even be despised – presumably because of its eccentricity (1 Thessalonians 5:20)?
If prophets have the same level of authority in the NT as those in the OT, then what do you do with individuals such as Paul who IGNORED, who seemed to have freedom to disregard even the best prophets as seem when he disregarded Agabus and went on to Jerusalem since in his heart he already decided that was what God wanted and not even the believers who took Agabus’s prediction to mean he shouldn’t go could not stop PAUL? (Acts 21:10-14)
Moreover, when it comes to prophecy, if prophecy is for edification, encouragement and exhortation and NOT PREDICTIVE but FORTHTELLING–BASED IN SCRIPTURE (as some say), they why would it be wrong to call someone a prophet who does these things? Surely someone such as Judas and Silas would fit the bill since they “said much to encourage and strengthen the brothers’ Acts 15:32-34.
Are they really on the same level as those in the OT or even those in the BOOK OF REVELATION?
Was this necessary an issue of 100% accuracy? And in the usage of prophet, is it biblically consistent to say that the usage of the term “prophet” WAS ALWAYS IN THE SAME SENSE as it was with others? Or could it be used in a looser term?
Personally, I’m for the concept of a CONGREGATIONAL PROPHET. As I have come to believe (with reference included), “It seems quite plain from a consideration of Acts and 1 Corinthians 14:29-32 that the New Testament gift of prophecy is quite different to the Old Testament conception of ‘prophet’ – The new prophets can be expected to be active within church congregations and not necessarily in any way famous beyond that. One of the difficulties for us in understanding the conception of prophet in our day is partly due to the fact that the Greek word translated prophet (propheteis) is really much broader than the English word ‘prophet’, which tends to have quite a specific ring.
Truthfully, the Greek word can – just as easily – mean ‘inspired speaker’, or ‘encouraging speaker’, and some of the New Testament references don’t necessarily go beyond that.”
For reference:
And to be clear, of course the GIFT OF PROPHECY AND THE OFFICE are two different things. You don’t need one to have the other. For example,
not all who prophesy are prophets. Many Christians prophesied but the office of prophet was next to that of apostle and was an itinerant and probably full-time ministry. According to one of the references I had, Paul says bluntly “not all are prophets” ( 1 Cor 12:28-31) yet seems to imply that the gift of prophecy can be sought by most Christians. (1 Cor 14:1-5)
“Phillip the evangelist had four virgin daughters who prophesied but they are not called prophets. (Acts 21:9) Women prophesied in Corinthians but were explicitly not to be given authority in the Corinthian church. ( 1 Corinthians 11:3-5, 14:34,35) Thus for some reason these women who prophesied in that church were not given the office of prophet in that church. The gift and the office are different.”
1. To add some more things,
At one point, it was said elsewhere to me that prophecy was all about forthtelling, BASED on the verse dealing with how prophecy is for edification, encouragement and exhortation in I Corinthians 14…..and that that therefore means that all prophetic words dealing with a PREDICTIVE NATURE are invalid since much of what is seen today on TBN/other places involving spiritual abuse include such things.
I disagree, seeing that I’ve experienced predictive prophetic words myself (or more appropiately termed “WORDS OF KNOWLEDGE”)….in light of that, some scriptures to consider:
1 Timothy 1:18-19
18Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, 19holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.
1 Timothy 4:11-14
11Command and teach these things. 12Don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity. 13Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. 14Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.
2 Timothy 1:3-6
Encouragement to Be Faithful
3I thank God, whom I serve, as my forefathers did, with a clear conscience, as night and day I constantly remember you in my prayers. 4Recalling your tears, I long to see you, so that I may be filled with joy. 5I have been reminded of your sincere faith, which first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice and, I am persuaded, now lives in you also. 6For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands.
1 Thessalonians 5:19-24
19(A)Do not quench the Spirit;
20do not despise (B)prophetic [a]utterances.
21But (C)examine everything carefully; (D)hold fast to that which is good;
22abstain from every [b]form of evil. 23Now (E)may the God of peace (F)Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your (G)spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, (H)without blame at (I)the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Does anyone have any thoughts on these paticular things?? Moreover, what are anyone’s thoughts on this as it relates to the prophetic? Is the prophecy this verse is describing of a PREDICTIVE nature, or simply encouragement of one’s giftings that are apparent?
One of my brothers in Christ (Jessie Phillips, from “Resurgence”, who is also a Reformed Charismatic) that I’ve talked to had this to say (As he said it best when listening to Him……and if anyone’s interested, let me know so I can point you toward where to find him at):
“In order to answer the question of whether prophecy is the same as teaching and preaching, there would need to be some examples of New Testament authors using the word this way. It must be the New Testament authors’ use, not the semantic range, that shape our theology of prophecy.
I think that the New Testament authors to mean something different than preaching when they speak of prophecy, and I will list a few examples. I hope to write a brief paper on this later, examining all of the data more exhaustively, but a shorter version will have to suffice here.
Romans 12:6-7 : “If a man’s gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach;”
Here, when Paul mentions prophecy, I don’t think he means preaching-teaching, because he mentions teaching separately from prophecy. If prophesying were the same as preaching-teaching, this would be redundant. Also, the phrase, “in proportion to his faith” seems to imply some level of risk with respect to the validity of the prophetic utterance, something we would hardly tolerate in preaching the known truth of the gospel. In this passage the prophetic utterance contains unknown projections upon the future, requiring risk and faith, contrasted with the teaching gift that contains utterances about the past and known events surrounding Christ and his accomplishment on the cross.
Luke 1 (Zechariah): Luke records that Zechariah prophesied over Jesus. But this was not preaching or teaching, it was a prophetic song about the life of Christ. It certainly references Old Testament prophecies about Christ, but does not seem to be an example of the preaching-teaching gift, which would prohibit us from equating prophecy with preaching-teaching based on this passage. In fact, in this instance, prophecy seemed to involve divine revelation that was beyond scripture, not derived from it. Obviously, scripture promised a coming Messiah. But it was not until Zechariah received the additional revelation that this particular child of Mary was in fact the Messiah that he prophesied based on this new revelation. He wasn’t expounding on scripture and preaching, he received instant inspiration and revelation, and “filled with the Holy Spirit” began this spontaneous prophecy, quite different than the preaching-teaching gift to which prophecy is at times equated.
Agabus, the prophet:
One of the most well known prophets, and best examples of a New Testament prophet was Agabus. There are two occasions in which he prophesied. If these two examples of Agabus prophesying involved him preaching and teaching God’s word, then we would have an example supporting the cessationists desire to equate the two gifts. But, Agabus did not preach or teach God’s word when he prophesied. Rather he:
a) predicted a famine (Acts 11:27-30), and
b) predicted Paul’s arrest (Acts 21:10-11)
This hardly sounds like a pastor-teacher fulfilling his mandate to preach and teach by “prophesying.” It sounds more like a prophet predicting things that God shows him will happen. So in Agabus we find evidence that a prophet partakes in different activities than a pastor-teacher, implying that the two gifts are not synonymous.
- Prophecies made about Timothy
- The Ephesians 4 gifts
- Joel’s promise of “women preachers” (Joel 2:28-29)
- Four unmarried female preachers (Acts 21:8)
Prophecies made about Timothy: In 1 Timothy 1:18 Paul charges his young friend to persevere and remain faithful, “in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you.” We learn from the second half of verse 18 that someone had prophesied that Timothy would wage good warfare and hold faith and a good conscience. Was Timothy’s experience with prophecy akin to preaching? It doesn’t seem so.
The content of the prophecy in this instance was not scripture, as it would be in preaching. The subject of the revelation was some previously undisclosed details about Timothy’s future. As Paul says, the prophetic revelation was “about you [Timothy].”
So Paul’s experience with prophets in this instance consisted not of preachers proclaiming God’s word, but some prophet receiving information about Timothy’s future and reporting that extra-Biblical revelation to Paul and Timothy for his edification.
Ephesians 4 Gifts: In Ephesians 4 Paul mentions that God has given certain gifts to the church. In this list he mentions apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
This verse is similar to Romans 12 (see previous post) in that it differentiates prophets from teachers, implying a difference in the gifts of prophecy and preaching/teaching. Is prophecy the same as preaching and teaching? Then why are do prophets and teachers constitute two different offices, if they are precisely the same gift?
Women preachers in Joel 2?
In Joel 2:28-29 there is a prediction of what will happen when the Holy Spirit comes at the day of Pentecost. One of the things that will happen is that “sons and daughters will prophecy.” Paul was very careful to articulate that he did not “permit a woman to teach” but to “remain quiet” (1 Timothy 2:12) in the assembly. Yet it is very clear that women were permitted to prophesy. Joel predicted that sons and daughters, male and female servants all prophesying would be one of the indicators that the Spirit had come at Pentecost.
Was Paul, by forbidding women to prophesy, trying to reverse or contain the scope of the Pentecost outpouring? Or, on the other hand, is it possible that a woman could actually prophecy but not teach, given that these two gifts are different in terms of functionality and authority? The latter is more likely, especially given the fact that Paul acknowledges without correction that women are prophesying in Corinth (1 Cor 11:5 [see Footnote 1] ) and tells all believers, men and women, to earnestly desire to prophesy (1 Cor 14:1).
Philip’s daughters:
Sticking with the theme of women prophets, we see in Acts that Philip the evangelist “had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied” (Acts 21:9). These four women had a notable prophetic ministry, given the fact that it warranted a mention in Scripture. Luke obviously saw their ministry as substantial and made a brief comment on it. It would seem far fetched that these four unmarried daughters had profound teaching and preaching ministries. Yet, this is what the cessationist understanding of prophecy would force us to conclude.
Church at Antioch:
When the Antioch church was formed in the persecution after Stephen’s death, there was a certain order with which Jerusalem sent aid, which proves to be instructive to our discussion here (see Acts 11).
1. Jerusalem sent the apostle
2. The apostle recruited the teacher
3. Jerusalem sends the prophets
In step one, upon hearing of the “great number” (Acts 21:11) of new converts in Antioch, Jerusalem sent Barnabas to establish this church (Acts 21:22) and provide apostolic oversight.
Second in the order of events was the establishment of sound doctrine through the teaching and preaching gift of Paul (Acts 21:25). Thirdly, after the apostolic and teaching gifts had been established, Jerusalem sent prophets, including Agabus, to perform prophetic ministry for the church (Acts 21:27), saving the church from the effects of an impending famine.
What is the point here? If prophecy and preaching are the same thing, why would Jerusalem have considered it necessary to send prophets to minister even after Paul’s teaching had been established “for a whole year” (Acts 21:25). If Paul had been prophesying (i.e. preaching) for a whole year, why send prophets?
Of course the prophets came to fulfill some task that was missing in the excellent teaching of Paul. What was missing? Agabus predicted a famine. What was missing was some divinely revealed, yet extra-Biblical knowledge that never could have been arrived at from studying scripture, as diligently as Paul was doing that.
This is what prophecy is: receiving revelation that cannot necessarily be arrived at through studying scripture, and then proclaiming that revelation to others for their edification, building up, sustenance and protection.
However you choose to define it, I think we can be sure on one thing: prophecy is not the same thing as preaching.
1. In light of Ephesians 2:20, it is clear that Prophecies are never raised to the level of inspired text, because Paul instructs that they should be tested, indicating they are ad hoc in nature. In light of Ephesians 2:20, it’s clear that some included new revelation that was foundational to the church. Scripture identifies a number of prophets (eg. Acts 13:1, Acts 15:32, Acts 19:6, Acts 21:8), yet never records their prophecies which suggests they were personal revelations directed at a particular person or group, and therefore not universally applicable (eg. Acts 21:10-11). They may also have simply been restatements of truth that had already been revealed2.
The early church understood the prophecy in Joel 2:28-30 as being fulfilled. The fulfilment of this prophecy and the language of 1 Corinthians 14, implies that prophesying is available to all, which is consistent with what is described elsewhere in the New Testament (cf. 1 Corinthians 11:4-5, 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22, 2 Thessalonians 2:2, Romans 12:6).
On Ephesians 2:20, This verse states that the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. The Greek construction indicates that these are two distinct groups: apostles and other prophets. This implies that the church was in fact partly built on the foundation of the non-apostolic prophets. Therefore, affirming that non-apostolic prophets were error-prone results in an untenable position.
However, this does not mean that ALL PROPHETS ARE FOUNDATIONAL. The prophets at Corinth and Thessalonica as well as other local churches founded by Paul were second generation Christians and were not witnesses to Christ’s resurrection. Non-foundational prophets were those who proclaimed truth that had already been revealed, or proclaimed prophesies of a private and personal nature, regarding practice rather than new revelation.
One could also add that the foundational prophets discussed in Ephesians 2:20 were not necessarily those in the Book of Acts, but those in the OT PRIMARILY. I’m reminded of how everything in the OT and during Jesus’s time THAT BUILT UP THE FAITH OF BELIEVERS was also built upon the prophets PRECEDDING HIM:
Matthew 5:17
[ The Fulfillment of the Law ] “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Matthew 7:12
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Matthew 11:13
For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
Matthew 22:40
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Luke 16:16
[ Additional Teachings ] “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it.
Apart from those prophets in paticular, who was it primarily that founded the doctrine of those in the NT Church? Was it not APOSTLES PRIMARILY WHO’S WORD WAS ABOVE QUESTION? Surely, if it was all those who were prophets, then the INSTRUCTIONS IN I CORINTHIANS 14 would be invalid with having to have a prophets words WEIGHED.
As my friend Sam said on the issue (from HEAT/LIGHT), “the Apostles recognized the authority of their own teachings and writings as the very words of God. Paul commands the church in Thessalonica to receive his words “…not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God” (1 Thessalonians 2:13), and points out, as was the case with denying the words of the Old Testament prophets, that anyone who disregards his words “disregards not man but God” (1 Thessalonians 4:8). Others are punished for disregarding the message of the Apostles; “If anyone refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.” (2 Thessalonians 3:14)
Also, in 2 Peter 3:15-16, Peter equates Paul’s letters with “the other Scriptures.” Further, Acts 5:3-4 & 21, implies that lying to an Apostle is equivalent to lying to the Holy Spirit, and thus God himself!
The New Testament is made up of the writings of the Apostles (or of those under their authority) because it is THEY, not the New Testament prophets, who are the authoritative messengers of God during that time. And since to be in the office of New Testament Apostles you had to have personally experienced the living or physically resurrected Jesus, that office (in the New Testament sense of being an authoritative messenger of Jesus) is now closed, thus no one can any longer speak the very words of God to his people, except in that they are rightfully dividing His written word (the teachings of the Prophets and Apostles) in the Scriptures.”
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/robin.brace/prophets.htm
http://aibi.gospelcom.net/articles/prophecy.htm
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue74b.htm
http://mymiscellanies.blogspot.com/2006/10/gospel-driven-prophecy-understanding.html
Again, from what I see, the text makes explicitly clear in I Corinthians 14 that in worship services that prophets were in the congregation AND Their were regulations on how they were to operate, just as there were for those interpeting tongues. No one can deny that. Those who were regularly used by the Spirit in the exercise of the gift of prophecy in the local congregation are also called prophets (1 Corinthians 14:29,32,37)……and IMHO, there is nothing to suggest that “the prophets” in Eph. 2:20 is an exhaustive reference to all possible prophets in the church. Otherwise, it contradicts the instructions for how revelation from those who are considered “prophets” should go.
If you’d like, consider investigating these Brah……
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/2004/186_Using_Our_Gifts_in_Proportion_to_Our_Faith__Part_1/
http://www.desiringgod.org/Search/?search=Prophecy
http://www.amazon.com/Miraculous-Gifts-Today-Wayne-Grudem/dp/0310201551
http://www.enjoyinggodministries.com/article/are-prophets-foundational-to-the-church
http://www.tffps.org/docs/The%20Foundational%20Gifts%20of%20Ephesians%202,20.pdf
http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_4195_apostles_prophets.cfm
Well stated Gxg!
Whew, wow, and other utterances! GBX you are thinking of writing a paper….wasn’t that it!? No seriously, thanks very much brother for your work here.
Last week I was sharing with a brother , back and forth about tongues and prophecy. He has absolutely no background of involvement with either.
Some of the things he was saying to deny that gifts are for today confounded me a bit.
He said, “Don’t you believe the bible is complete?”
“Revelation warns those who add to the bible to beware!”
I kept trying to tell him that they(those who use the gifts today and back then) were not adding to scripture…I don’t think.
I was not too sure. My friend was sure, from what he had been taught, that in his mind tongues and prophecy were both adding to scripture. He is sure in his mind, that those who use them today think they are adding to scripture as well.
You have succintly pointed out the opposite. Thankyou.
Also donsands, thanks for bringing up the scripture in verse 28 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God.
I agree, why would Paul instruct someone to speak to himself a langauge he does not understand if that would violate his instruction to only speak interpreted tongues.
Obviously, the speaker is speaking to himself sounds he does not understand the meaning of. Good point.
Thanks everyone.
p.s I am a member of a very non charismatic group….interesting times ahead i think. Any prayer would be appreciated!
Hi Everyone,
I apologize for not being able to interact on this thread like I would like. Perhaps later this week I will have time to respond to some of these comments in more detail. Thanks to everyone for their part in the discussion.
In the meantime, I would suggest a few immediate points of reference which might be helpful. First, these articles from David Farnell (TMS professor) help clarify the discussion.
Second, Trevor Craigen (also from TMS) did a lecture on prophecy last Sunday at our church. It should be online by tomorrow or Wednesday at this link.
Finally, since a point was made earlier about church history, some might find this article of interest (on cessationism throughout church history).
- NB
I have a question for cessationists.
In Matthew 10 Jesus sent out His disciples with these instructions: “Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.” In Luke 22 He gave them this instruction, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.” Is the kingdom principle that we should enter ministry ‘on faith,’ or is it that we should only go out with adequate physical preparations?
I would say that the kingdom principle is neither of these, but rather, that we should do what God instructs us to do THIS time. Should Moses have struck the rock or spoken to it? Should Paul not have gone to Asia (Acts 16:6) or should he have (Acts 19:26)?
Jesus told Pilate, “Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice” (John 18:37). I absolutely agree that the only reliable standard for distinguishing the voice of Christ is His scripture. There are many, many voices that sound (and feel) quite similar to the voice of the Spirit. We can only learn our Shepherd’s voice by much practice at listening to Him in the Word (and, I would add, by drastically minimizing the attention we give to the false voices in our world).
But at some point, we must actively follow Christ in this time, in this world, in the particulars of our lives. Are we left with hoping we’ve applied the right scriptures in the right way for this choice…or is the Spirit of God able to direct us personally?
It seems strange to me something that we regard so Holy, So true, that we say we would give our life for. {The Word Of God} WE seem to be so wise, having all the answers,Yet no two people throuout these coments can come to an agreement ,The instruction at best seems to lead to even more confusion, one contradicting the other the very thing we declair the Bible dont do, who is right! As long as we are seperated we are all wrong and walking in error, each one here is politely telling the other your wrong , ignorant, misguided, you need to listen to my opinion , My opinion is based on the Word, Theres not supposed to be denomination, seperation , The Spirit will guide us into all truth we need no mans teaching, It is the Holy Spirits commision , Responsibility to Guide Us. And he is not bound by the Bible you cant put God in a book and say you are limited to what is written on these pages,The apostles said if the things Jesus said and did were written the world couldnt contain the books.To think we have God figured out and dictate how he is supose to operate is absured to say the least.
Roger, I think that you may not have a leg to stand on here. Those on both sides of this argument believe strongly in the inerrant, authoritative, and COMPLETE Word of God as contained in the Bible. Is that what you believe, too? I am wondering, because if not you are doing the same thing that you are accusing the other commenters of doing (“each one…politely telling the other you’re wrong”). Also, while we “do not need that anyone teach” us (1Jn. 2:27) because we have the anointing from Christ and the Holy Spirit as our teacher, Christ Himself “gave some to be…pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ”(Eph. 4:11-12). Teachers serve a necessary function in the body (1Cor. 12:21), but they can get it wrong. Our unity does not come from everyone thinking the same thing and having the same level of knowledge; it comes from love for one another (Eph. 4:2-3) in truth. We are called to put on (above all) “love, which is the bond of perfection”(Col. 3:14), and also to let the Word of Christ dwell in us richly (Col. 3:16).
Also, just because everyone didn’t agree and start singing “Kumbaya”, are we supposed to not actively think about the role of spiritual gifts in the life of the believer today? That is a big deal to me. I have been on the cessasionalist side by default, because that was the view held by those who discipled me in the faith, but now as I examine it for myself I have found that I have not been convinced by Scripture or plain reason that the gifts have ceased. Should I just give up and stick to the “elementary principles?” On the contrary “leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God…”(Heb. 6:1) I am called to partake not just of babies’ milk, but also of solid food (Heb. 5:12).
By the way, which side of the fence are you on in this discussion?
Grace and peace,
Keith