The Bible is very clear that we are to beware of false doctrine and false teachers. We must have good doctrine and maintain the doctrine Paul taught. Like those very clear teachings of predestination Eph1 and that god chose some and it is not up to our will as in Rom 9 and else where that He any get the glory for our salvation and we not have any reason to boast, like glad I decided for Christ. The reformed person has been taught of God in opposition to doctrines that come natural to the natural man, that God by his Spirit draws us to Him, opens our eyes, chooses us, give us a new birth and new nature that is willing to come to Christ and gives us faith to believe and repent.
Now if a person is too boastful and want to elevate human will to having a part in salvation rather than giving God all glory and submitting to the word until he more clearly understands all of it, how can you trust that man to be saved or have spiritual discernment? All the questions one has about apparently conflicting scriptures has been explained and answered to anyone’s sensible and rational need. All one must do is read articles on these subjects and objections all over the internet.
I was raised in thinking it was up to me to decide to. But God opened my eyes to the historical truth of the church that is is all of grace, we will not seek God, or do good, until God who has chosen us in Him before the foundations of the world according to His good pleasure, gives us a new nature that desires to come to God.
As says the word, will you believe this or deny Christ and continue in pride and disbelief and rebellion and not follow Jesus as most of His followers did when He told them this?
John 6:65-68
“For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 Jesus said therefore to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
NAS
In His Service,
Don P

So much to pray about.

On this board, I am told that the non-elect cannot recognize any work of God or the Holy Spirit because they are spiritually dead. I am told that the elect will be kept by God until the work of salvation has been completed at His return, basically once saved always saved. I am told that those who fall away after many years of apparent christian service did not fall away by their choice since we have no choice in the matter of salvation; therefore, they must not have ever been elect to begin with. In spite of their apparent working for God’s kingdom and casting out demons in His name, they were non-elect from the beginning. And finally, again, I am told that the non-elect cannot recognize any work of God or the Holy Spirit because they are spiritually dead. And basically we cannot know who the elect are until the judgement day – since we cannot predict who might fall away in the future, and if one falls away, it is because they were never elect to begin with – no matter how much “work” for Christ and the church they may have done while “saved”.

Thinking thusly, and following the impeccable logic of the Reformed faith, I am left knowing that I dare not trust the word of any Reformed person, ever. Because they might not be the elect, and we cannot know if they will fall away until Judgement Day. And if they are not the elect, they cannot know or understand anything about God or the Holy Spirit. And if they, being spiritually dead, cannot know or recognize any work of God or the Holy Spirit – how then can I trust them when they say that any particular gift of the Holy Spirit no longer operates today? If they are not elect, and they are spiritually dead and cannot recognize any work of God or the Holy Spirit, of course they are going to insist that said works are absent. “If I can’t see them, they do not exist”.

I am not trying to be cheeky here. This is a serious logic problem that no Reformed person I have talked with ever admits to seeing. As I’ve said elsewhere on this board, I am not arguing against the Reformed position. I am simply seeking to understand it. So far, no Reformed person has been able to talk me past the stumbling block I’ve presented above.

Now, on the other hand, it is indisputable that many take these things to ungodly extremes..and I’ve witnessed, and been victim of, far too much of that. But let’s don’t have the baby out with the bath. “Repent and be saved” has suffered no less abuse in our day and culture, but we’ve not had done with that, have we? It is just as foolish to have it all out the window as to blindly embrace anything coming down the pike with the appropriate “label” displayed. As mentioned above, if Christ GAVE those gifts to His church early on to serve as “tools” for its building, then how can we, observing it is not done building yet (He has not yet returned bodily, has He?) then HOW can we stand and declare, as mere men, that He has withdrawn those gifts, as some alledge? (same goes for the five-fold gifts ennumerated in Ephesians 4:11 ff..given UNTIL…….which ends have not yet been fulfilled).

To be sure, abuses abound…..we being mere men. But on reading of another aereoplane hitting the ground upon its landing attempt and killing 200 people, do we refuse to ever get on one ourselves? No, the end of this discussion must needs be an accurate treatment of those gifts as given, with an open and honest look at what ensamples might be found in our century, and how those gifts are presently functioning along their intended purpose. And no, making the “user” to “feel good” is not the intended end of these gifts. Seeking the gifts as ends is equally bankrupt. But they HAVE been given, and we seal them into a dank and dusty cupboard, relegating them to some age in the distant past, at our peril. The one who asserts these gifts are first-order of importance for the health of the Church mightn’t be far off the mark.

In a third-world environment, where I live, the life expectancy at birth is about 40 years and there is no contraception. The under-5 mortality is about 50%. Hence funerals are ubiquitous. This is the case in all eras and cultures without modern medical care. It is hard to travel anywhere for more than a mile without coming across a funeral. Jesus lived in Nazareth. It explicitly states that he could not do any miracles there aside from healing a few people. Hence he did not raise anyone from the dead in Nazareth. If he lived there for even a week and appeared in public, there was no way that he could have avoided a funeral. If he did see a funeral, the dead stayed dead.

At the pool of Bethesda, there were many ill, yet he healed one. How long would it take for the paralytic’s mat neighbor to yell “Me Too!!”? In another passage it states that the power of God was with Him to heal at a particular time. This would be meaningless if it were always present.

Hence the cessationist demands that authentic charismatic gifting has to be an any-time, any-place phenomenon is not tenable. In my context, the gospel came in the 1920’s and 30’s, largely through cessationist missionaries. When the missionaries were deported in the late 30’s, the charismatic gifts were in evidence within the infant national church in abundance, God confirming His word by signs and wonders. There was living memory of these miracles when we first came here. These phenomena faded as the church matured but then recurred at various times of persecution.

About 2 years ago, as a result of divine revelation, there were mass conversions of people in a hostile-to-Christ cultural environment. I personally, regularly interact with some of these believers, mbb’s, so this is no hearsay. It’s the book of Acts all over again. However, miracles occur at the time and location and circumstances determined by the Spirit. No one can tell Him He has to and no one can tell Him that He can’t. He does what He jolly well pleases.

Jesus could not do many miracles in some places because of their unbelief. The cessationists confirm themselves in their unbelief by expecting authentic charismatic miracles to be at the will of the human channel. They are not, they were not, and they never will be. If a cessationist with an open mind wants to see for himself, let him minister in an emerging church context or in a persecuted church context.

I wonder then why something as powerful as the supernatural activity of the indwelling Spirit, the tangible equipping of the church to wage warfare against a physically strong and devious enemy, can somehow be seen as no longer necessary. Why would we be given only a few vague and ambiguous hints that something as amazing as tongues or prophecy or healing (which stay tied together pretty much in scripture) would be withdrawn prior to the completion of this stage of history?

I Corinthians 13 does talk about an end-point of tongues, and of prophecy, and of knowledge. Earlier in that chapter (verses 1-3) we have been told that tongues, and prophecy, and knowledge, and faith, and self-sacrifice, must be undergirded by love or they are profitless. It is logical then to assume that when love comes perfectly (completely) at the end of times, all of these other activities will no longer be necessary or even meaningful. What place will self-sacrifice have then, when Christ is ruling perfectly? What place will knowledge or faith have, when we know as we are known? And what place will tongues have, when our perfected spirits will be fully in control of our minds and wills and speech?

Meanwhile, I would be very cautious about presuming something to be inactive that God has not clearly decreed. It could merely be a clever tactic of the enemy, disarming his opposition….

I do not at all think that being mistaken on this issue disqualifies one from salvation. It was not in any way my intent to imply that cessationalists are working with the enemy. However, I have heard it said a number of times, and in no uncertain terms, that the gifts that continuationists believe in are of the devil, which strongly implies that people who do such things are at least tools of the devil, if not working for him.

The way I see it, for the cessationalists to be wrong may be merely a mistake in doctrine, as all of us can make in the process of growing and maturing in the Lord, a lack of faith, something all of us must grow in, and missing out on blessings. But if the continuationalists are wrong they are, at best, unwitting tools of the devil.

Paul

My reasoning for that is based on what looks to me to be the assumption by Jesus that the Church needed the charisma in oreder to be effective (Acts 1:4,8). If it is true that the Church needs the charisma in order to accomplish its mission, even if all individuals do not, then the charismatic question is not only a first-level doctrinal issue for the Church, but also a matter of survival.

I think that I should state now, and state clearly, that I agree that a true Christian may be confused about this issue. Further, it is not necessary for one to evidence the charisma in order to be a Christian and go to Heaven. [After all, did the thief on the cross evidence any miraculous gifts?] Also, I will gladly admit that I may not have “adequately accounted for every contingency in number 3;” I can not think of any other possibilities for such behavior, though. (Please remember that there is the implicit first possible explanation: the Holy Spirit is the source.)

In any case, the core of this issue is whether there are miraculous gifts today, and if so, are they of God? This is not a purely academic, theoretical issue. This is not about presuppositions. If it can be demonstrated even once that a miraculous gift from God has operated in this day then the cessationist position is proven to be mistaken.

The thing is, I have seen and heard such things–supernatural things–happen. Jesus spoke a “word of knowledge” to the Samaritan woman. I have multiple times heard a person give a word of knowledge to another person such that the power and love of God was demonstrated; these were not in public, I knew one or both of the people, the people (different ones in all cases) had never met before, and the person receiving the word acknowledged (and marveled at) the truth of the word. I have seen a lame man throw down his crutches and walk. I was once told that I would have severe allergies the rest of my life, even with shots, and a year later, after being prayed for, was found to have no allergies (and have been allergy free for over 25 years now). I have heard God’s “voice” give me a prophetic message for someone and, upon giving the message (with some trepidation), seen the person go from mocking/laughing to complete astonishment, saying that it truly was a word from God. I have been given prophetic words from other people and been, in turn, left astonished at a message that could have no other explanation than that it was from God because I had not spoken of those things with anyone. I could go on, but hopefully I have made the point that I can never doubt that the charisma gifts, as described in the Bible, operate today and that they are of God. Further, since I see nothing in scripture, nor church history, that leads me to believe that the charisma have ceased, I feel safe that my experience is not contradicted by the Word (i.e. I am not crazy/delusional, nor unduly worried about my own salvation).

I am no big deal. There is no reason that you should listen to me, or trust me, over anyone else. I am not yet well-schooled in theology, nor have I done anything more than help plant a church and be an elder therein. But I know what I have seen and heard and read, and I know that I am not alone. Now, the question is, am I and countless others deceptive, deceived, controlled (or at least strongly influenced) by the enemy, or experiencing gifts from God?

Paul

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I’ve been a long-time lurker here and have been blessed many times by the Grace to You ministries.

Larre S.