The Charismatic Question
March 10th, 2008
(By Nathan Busenitz)
The following notes come from a seminar I did at the 2007 Shepherds’ Conference, but which (for no reason other than my own neglect) were never posted at the Shepherds’ Conference website. This week, I will repost these notes (in several parts), making only limited edits in brackets. My hope is that the notes will be helpful to those on both sides of the charismatic debate.
I. BEFORE WE BEGIN. . .
At the outset of a discussion like this, it is always important to state a few preliminary clarifications. With that in mind, here’s a list of eight things I believe are worth considering:
1. This is an important issue, but it is not a first-level doctrine.
The charismatic debate is not a first-level doctrinal issue. After all, it is possible to be charismatic, non-charismatic, or even undecided and still be a Christian. One’s position regarding the continuation or discontinuation of the sign gifts is not determinative of his or her standing before God.
This does not mean that this issue is not important. It is very important because it has significant implications for both one’s private devotional life and the corporate body life of the local assembly. But it is not a first-level doctrine, and it’s good to remember that when voicing our disagreements.
I should add that my seminar here is intentionally directed toward the conservative evangelical continuationist, the “Reformed Charismatic.” Extreme charismatic and pentecostal groups, which in many cases actually do violate first-level doctrines — and thus should be confronted with boldness and directness — are outside the scope of what I am hoping to accomplish here.
2. The point of 1 Corinthians 12–14 is love, and a major purpose of the gifts is edification (1 Cor. 12:7).
It seems ironic that a passage in which Paul is emphasizing love for fellow Christians and unity within the body of Christ would itself become a primary point of division among believers. As Richard Gaffin writes: “Consider this disconcerting situation: Especially in recent decades the work of the one Spirit, given to unify the church (e.g., 1 Cor. 12; Eph. 4:3), has become the occasion (notice I did not say, the source!) of disunity and even divisions in the church” (Gaffin, Are Miraculous Gifts for Today? Four Views, 334).
To be sure, I am not asserting that we simply dismiss our differences as though they do not exist. But I am suggesting that, specifically with those who affirm the first-level doctrines of the gospel, we approach the issue in the spirit of Paul’s overarching instruction to the Corinthians. We go awry, I believe, if we interpret 1 Cor. 12-14 correctly (regarding the gifts) but subsequently miss Paul’s entire point in those chapters (regarding love).
3. It is possible to be confused about spiritual gifts.
The Corinthian situation highlights the fact that, even in apostolic times (when all agree the gifts were in operation), it was possible to be confused about the miraculous gifts. Our contemporary situation underscores this point.
As we noted yesterday, the Scriptures must be our authority in sorting through any such confusion. And we must be willing to reconsider our position (and the presuppositions that undergird our position) if the Scripture shows us areas in which our thinking needs to change.
4. Not every continuationist is the same.
In fact, there are over 20,000 distinct continuationist groups in the world [according to The International Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements]— ranging from Pentecostal to Charismatic to Third Wave. Because of this vast spectrum, it is impossible to address the theological nuances of each group. The common link that these groups share is a belief in the continued operation of the miraculous sign gifts throughout the entire church age.
As I noted earlier, my target audience is the “Reformed Charismatic,” though I hope my approach will be helpful for anyone thinking through issues related to the sign gifts.
5. Not every cessationist is the same.
According to one online encyclopedia, there are at least four types of cessationists: Concentric, Classical, Full, and Consistent. (Personally, I wish “Full” would be renamed “Complete” so we could have them all alliterated.) Our ministry here at Grace Church would generally fall into the Classical category.
6. We’re not talking about miracles, we’re talking about miraculous gifts.
My seminar today is not concerned with whether or not miracles (in the general sense) still occur today. Many cessationists believe that they do. The question is, rather, are the miraculous gifts of the New Testament still in operation in the church today?
Sam Waldron expresses his cessationist position this way:
I am not denying by all this that there are miracles in the world today in the broader sense of supernatural occurrences and extraordinary providences. I am only saying that there are no miracles in the stricter sense [of] miracle-workers performing miraculous signs to attest the redemptive revelation they bring from God. Though God has never locked Himself out of His world and is still at liberty to do as He pleases, when He pleases, how He pleases, and where He pleases, He has made it clear that the progress of redemptive revelation attested by miraculous signs done by miracle-workers has been brought to conclusion in the revelation embodied in our New Testaments. (Waldron, To Be Continued?, 102)
7. I have been greatly blessed by some continuationists.
My list would not be complete without noting the profound positive impact that some continuationist authors and church leaders have had in my life. This would include men like Dr. John Piper, whose passion for the supremacy of God and the enjoyment of God has been infectious in my own heart; Dr. Wayne Grudem, whose Systematic Theology and other academic works have both instructed and inspired me; and C. J. Mahaney, whose humility and Christ-centeredness continues to convict me and to motivate me to greater godliness. I am deeply indebted to these men, as are many others. They are a treasure to the American church in the twenty-first century.
8. As a cessationist, I love the Holy Spirit.
Though it should be an obvious characteristic of any true Christian, I feel the need, as a cessationist, to establish a simple point from the beginning: I love the Holy Spirit. I would never want to do anything to discredit His work, diminish His attributes, or downplay His ministry. Nor would I ever want to miss out on anything He is doing in the church today. And I know I’m not the only cessationist who feels this way.
Because we love the Holy Spirit we are thankful to God for the Spirit’s amazing and ongoing work in the body of Christ. His works of regenerating, indwelling, baptizing, sealing, assuring, illuminating, convicting, comforting, confirming, filling, and enabling are all indispensable aspects of His ministry.
Because we love the Holy Spirit we are motivated to study the Scriptures that He inspired to learn how to walk in a manner worthy, being characterized by His fruit. We long to be filled by Him (Eph. 5:18), which begins by being indwelt with His Word, which is the Word of Christ (Col. 3:16–17), and being equipped with His sword, which is the Word of God (Eph. 6:17).
Finally, it is because we love the Holy Spirit that we long to rightly represent Him, to understand and appreciate His purposes (as He has revealed them in His Word), and to align ourselves with what He is doing in this world. This more than anything else gives us reason to study the issue of charismatic gifts (cf. 1 Cor. 12:7-11). Our goal in this study has to be more than mere doctrinal correctness. Our motivation must be to gain a more accurate understanding of the Spirit’s work – such that we might better yield ourselves to Him in service to Christ for the glory of God.
I’ve also been blessed by even some radical continuists, for example recording artist Carman. Some of his work is foolish prattle, boasting abour ‘kingdom authority’ we don’t possess (‘Satan, Bite the Dust’, ‘No Monsters’) but he has also done sincere, beautiful songs from the heart of a man who obviously loves Christ. Nothing in scripture indicates we can arbitrarily ‘bind Satan’ and this has become the focus of many (along with that other biblical no-show, pleading the blood) ministries to the exclusion of sincere Bible study. Sad.
It may be premature to ask a question before the other articles are posted, but since you say this is not first-level doctrine then what level is it? How many levels of doctrines are there?
In the past The Master’s Seminary has a source of steadfast cessationist teaching as illustrated by the quote below. I am looking forwardward to reading your articles.
In TMSJ 14/2 (Fall 2003) Dr. Robert L Thomas said this in the context of the “open but cautious” group:
“… I do wish to issue a warning about the dangers of a “charismatic sympathy” position that remains open to the possibility of noncessationism. All it takes for a local church or a Christian college or seminary to become totally noncessationist is for the leadership to become “charismatic
sympathizers.” Recent evangelical history has taught that. An institution does not have to be pro-noncessationist to move in that direction. All it has to do is to have “Open But Cautious” leaders, members, or students, and over time, noncessationism will leave its mark on that body.”
Forgive me if I apply some logic here (and please also forgive me if I make any wrong assumptions in doing so):
1)A cessationalist believes that the charisma have ceased
2)Such manifestations are therefore not of God.
3)Since these things are not of God they are either “of the Devil” (as I was once told), a deception, or a product of self-delusion.
4)Given that there is an evident supernatural element to many charismatic manifestations, then the most likely of the three possible explanations is that they are Satanic/demonic in origin.
5)Being Satanic/demonic in origin then one would think it well nigh impossible that anyone who is a “practicing” continuationalist could be considered Christ-centered, godly, to have an infectious enjoyment of God…or in any way a Christian.
Puting aside scriptural support, or lack thereof, I would put it to you that either men such as Piper and Mahaney are neither admirable nor Christian, OR they are and the cessationalist position is logically indefensible.
Hi Robert,
Thanks for your comment. First level doctrines are the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, a right understanding of which is necessary in order to be saved (such as justification by faith, the deity of Christ, the resurrection, etc.). Since Christians can disagree on whether or not the gifts have ceased, and yet still be rightly regarded as Christians, this issue is by definition something other than a first-level doctrine.
We believe there are many absuses within the charismatic camp — especially among extreme Pentecostal groups. Some of those groups do violate first-level doctrines in both their theology and practice (just turn on TBN and you’ll see what we mean).
However, there are other conservative charismatics who do accurately articulate the gospel of grace (and therefore do not violate first-level doctrines even though they believe in the continuation of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit). We can show charity to such individuals as brothers and sisters in Christ even if we deeply disagree with them on this particular issue. It is this group of charismatics that we are primarily addressing in this series — calling them to examine their presuppositions according to the Scriptures (cf. Acts 17:11).
Also, for the record, I am not in the “open but cautious” camp, but am, in fact, a committed cessationist. I am greatly appreciative of Dr. Thomas’s exegetical work on 1 Corinthians 12-14.
Thanks again for your comment.
NB
Hi Paul,
Thanks for your comment. While there may be some instances in which numbers 4 and 5 follow number 3 (in more-extreme charismatic circles), we would disagree that such is always the case (especially with regard to conservative charismatic leaders like Piper, Grudem, and Mahaney — men whom we greatly respect and whom we know, from personal experience, are godly, Christ-honoring, Spirit-filled defenders of the true gospel).
We would also question whether you have adequately accounted for every contingency in number 3.
But in any case, we would point to the Corinthians — who were clearly confused about the spiritual gifts (which is why Paul spent three chapters addressing the issue). We believe they provide a biblical precedent for the fact that a person can be a true Christian and yet be confused about this issue.
Hope that helps,
NB
@ Paul
The knife cuts both ways in this debate.
That would mean that the cessationist are a group of ppl God intentionally overlooks and deems unworthy for the gifts and are akin to second class Christians esp. in terms of Spiritual power.
Cessationist might not even be saved b/c they cannot recognize the works of God and refuse to acknowledge words of modern day prophets and prayers of the men with the gift of tongues. In fact they actively fight against the Spirit much like Israel fought against his prophets back in the OT (ie Jeremiah).
****
I’d just think we should be careful before we start throwing out either group is working with the Devil…
Nate,
I appreciate your comments about men like Wayne Grudem and
John Piper. Certainly, these are men who are sound in the
doctrines of grace.
Also, I agree with your comment about first-level
doctrines. Grudem and Piper are excellent examples here.
A verse I wanted to raise on this issue is 1 Corinthians
1:7. This verse seems to suggest that the gifts are
operative until the return of Christ. I would welcome your
comments here.
Hi Richard,
Thanks for your comments. Excellent question about 1 Corinthians 1:7. I have written an article on that very verse. It can be found at this link.
NB
OK, so it seems that Godly, Christ-Honoring, doctrinally sound believers can disagree on what the text is saying when it comes to tongues ceasing or not ceasing.
But the question that I haven’t seen answered (and maybe I missed it) is, if a genuine believer, who is Godly, Christ-Honoring and doctrinally sound speaks in tongues and that speaking is not Satan seduced or man made, then what brought it about?
Does the Cessationist view of text dogmatically state that tongues can not exist, no how, now way?
Is it possible for a Cessationist to be wrong on the text?
Could a Cessationist simply say “from our interpretation of the text, we believe that tongues have ceased…but our interpretation could be wrong”?
Would a Cessationist be willing to die on their view of the text? Probably not.
How does a Cessationist know whether or not the spiritual experience of another believer is genuine or not?
Nate:
Is there scriptural support for the principle that it’s acceptable to merely agree on first-level doctrinal issues and then disagree on everything else? In particular, what do we do with 1 Corinthians 14:37-38? It’s been my observation that spiritual gifts and gender roles tend to get relegated to the non-essential category, but yet, do you think Paul would agree with that given these verses (vv 37-38)? Also, what role does Romans 16:17 have here?
Thank you.
Hi Chris,
Thanks for your questions. Let me respond to just the last one, since I think it ultimately summarizes the others. You asked, How does a Cessationist know whether or not the spiritual experience of another believer is genuine or not?
That is a valid question. Our answer would be that we must compare the spiritual experiences of contemporary charismatics with the spiritual experiences described and defined in the New Testament.
If the two match up (such that modern charismatic practice corresponds closely to the phenomena of the New Testament) then there is good reason to at least be open to the contemporary charismatic movement.
But if the two do not match up, such that the New Testament phenomena is categorically different than what is occurring in contemporary charismatic circles, then we have good reason to reject the contemporary charismatic movement (or at least to reject their claim that their contemporary practice is the same as what is described in the NT).
Our goal in this series is to show that the NT description of the gifts is (in fact) categorically different than what is going on in contemporary charismatic circles. Although contemporary charismatics use New Testament terminology, they have redefined those terms to match their contemporary practice. But when their contemporary practice is compared with the NT data, we quickly find that the two do not compare.
Larre S.,
Thanks for your questions. My reference to a “first-level doctrine” comes from Al Mohler’s helpful article on “theological triage.” You can read it here.
I do think the charismatic issue is a very important one, because it has such significant implications for both corporate ecclesiology and personal sanctification. However, historically it has not been considered a “first-level” doctrine because first-level doctrines are, by definition, those necessary for salvation.
Since people can hold differing views regarding the continuation of the gifts and still be rightly regarded as Christians, the issue is necessarily something other than a first-level doctrine.
There are certainly groups within broader charismatic circles that would be rightly regarded as heretical cults (because they do violate first-level doctrines). And the conservative charismatics that I know would readily agree with this assessment. They are often embarrassed and dismayed by the abuses and extremes that occur under the “charismatic” banner.
Moreover, even though we would not see this issue as a first-level doctrine, we would see it as a major second-level doctrine … such that in many cases our church would not partner in ministry with other churches that are charismatic even if we would regard those churches as truly Christian. At the same time, we have had men like Piper, Mahaney, and Grudem speak at our church or seminary — and have found the interchange profitable.
Hope that helps,
NB
Nate:
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I’ve been a long-time lurker here and have been blessed many times by the Grace to You ministries.
Larre S.
Nate, I think that I should have first noted–and do so now–that I do not individually dispute any of your eight preliminary points of clarification. As a matter of fact, I thought they were quite useful points to make. I would like to point out, however,in regards to the first point, that it is possible that while this is not a first-level doctrinal issue for individuals, it may be one for the Church.
My reasoning for that is based on what looks to me to be the assumption by Jesus that the Church needed the charisma in oreder to be effective (Acts 1:4,8). If it is true that the Church needs the charisma in order to accomplish its mission, even if all individuals do not, then the charismatic question is not only a first-level doctrinal issue for the Church, but also a matter of survival.
I think that I should state now, and state clearly, that I agree that a true Christian may be confused about this issue. Further, it is not necessary for one to evidence the charisma in order to be a Christian and go to Heaven. [After all, did the thief on the cross evidence any miraculous gifts?] Also, I will gladly admit that I may not have “adequately accounted for every contingency in number 3;” I can not think of any other possibilities for such behavior, though. (Please remember that there is the implicit first possible explanation: the Holy Spirit is the source.)
In any case, the core of this issue is whether there are miraculous gifts today, and if so, are they of God? This is not a purely academic, theoretical issue. This is not about presuppositions. If it can be demonstrated even once that a miraculous gift from God has operated in this day then the cessationist position is proven to be mistaken.
The thing is, I have seen and heard such things–supernatural things–happen. Jesus spoke a “word of knowledge” to the Samaritan woman. I have multiple times heard a person give a word of knowledge to another person such that the power and love of God was demonstrated; these were not in public, I knew one or both of the people, the people (different ones in all cases) had never met before, and the person receiving the word acknowledged (and marveled at) the truth of the word. I have seen a lame man throw down his crutches and walk. I was once told that I would have severe allergies the rest of my life, even with shots, and a year later, after being prayed for, was found to have no allergies (and have been allergy free for over 25 years now). I have heard God’s “voice” give me a prophetic message for someone and, upon giving the message (with some trepidation), seen the person go from mocking/laughing to complete astonishment, saying that it truly was a word from God. I have been given prophetic words from other people and been, in turn, left astonished at a message that could have no other explanation than that it was from God because I had not spoken of those things with anyone. I could go on, but hopefully I have made the point that I can never doubt that the charisma gifts, as described in the Bible, operate today and that they are of God. Further, since I see nothing in scripture, nor church history, that leads me to believe that the charisma have ceased, I feel safe that my experience is not contradicted by the Word (i.e. I am not crazy/delusional, nor unduly worried about my own salvation).
I am no big deal. There is no reason that you should listen to me, or trust me, over anyone else. I am not yet well-schooled in theology, nor have I done anything more than help plant a church and be an elder therein. But I know what I have seen and heard and read, and I know that I am not alone. Now, the question is, am I and countless others deceptive, deceived, controlled (or at least strongly influenced) by the enemy, or experiencing gifts from God?
Paul
John, I’m sorry, but I do not see this even as the same knife, so to speak. This is not a matter of God intentionally overlooking and deeming anyone unworthy. Rather it is a matter of cessationalists missing out on blessings that God has for them, as well as missing out on tools that would make them more effective for Him. Faith is an essential component of many activities of God, for instance the centurion believed and his servant was healed, but the people of Nazareth did not believe and none were healed. In the later case God was just as willing to heal–if not more so since the Nazarenes were Jews–but unbelief kept the Holy Spirit from being able to work through Jesus.
I do not at all think that being mistaken on this issue disqualifies one from salvation. It was not in any way my intent to imply that cessationalists are working with the enemy. However, I have heard it said a number of times, and in no uncertain terms, that the gifts that continuationists believe in are of the devil, which strongly implies that people who do such things are at least tools of the devil, if not working for him.
The way I see it, for the cessationalists to be wrong may be merely a mistake in doctrine, as all of us can make in the process of growing and maturing in the Lord, a lack of faith, something all of us must grow in, and missing out on blessings. But if the continuationalists are wrong they are, at best, unwitting tools of the devil.
Paul
When God finished giving the ten commandments, He didn’t leave a spot on those tablets for etching in some additions or amendments. When the era of the law and the priesthood was over, the temple veil was rent. When the scriptures were complete, we were given a clear admonition not to touch them (Rev. 22:18,19).
I wonder then why something as powerful as the supernatural activity of the indwelling Spirit, the tangible equipping of the church to wage warfare against a physically strong and devious enemy, can somehow be seen as no longer necessary. Why would we be given only a few vague and ambiguous hints that something as amazing as tongues or prophecy or healing (which stay tied together pretty much in scripture) would be withdrawn prior to the completion of this stage of history?
I Corinthians 13 does talk about an end-point of tongues, and of prophecy, and of knowledge. Earlier in that chapter (verses 1-3) we have been told that tongues, and prophecy, and knowledge, and faith, and self-sacrifice, must be undergirded by love or they are profitless. It is logical then to assume that when love comes perfectly (completely) at the end of times, all of these other activities will no longer be necessary or even meaningful. What place will self-sacrifice have then, when Christ is ruling perfectly? What place will knowledge or faith have, when we know as we are known? And what place will tongues have, when our perfected spirits will be fully in control of our minds and wills and speech?
Meanwhile, I would be very cautious about presuming something to be inactive that God has not clearly decreed. It could merely be a clever tactic of the enemy, disarming his opposition….
Everyone who is a Christian has recieved the Holy Spirit. That in itself makes every Christian a Charismatic. Grace is a Charisma. Every Christian who preaches the gospel is preaching the most powerful message of God and therefore speaking prophetically (for the most part, the prophets of the OT preached repentance and faith; predicting the future consisted primarily of warning coming judgment and that was a small part of their prophetic ministry). Furthermore, every Christian who worships God (i.e. proclaiming the praises of God) is essentially doing exactly what the disciples were doing on the day of Pentecost. Worship is therefore also Charismatic and unacceptable to God if it is not charismatic. I can’t understand how anyone can call themselves a non-charismatic in light of this indisputible fact. Even John Macarthur believes he receives the unction of the Holy Spirit when he preaches. So did the Puritans. How is being filled with the Holy Spirit to proclaim the Word of God not charismatic?
Cessationists frequently misinterpret scripture by reading into the charismatic gifts that they could be exercised by one’s will at any time and any place, to any extent, for any end. To take the most extreme example, even Jesus could only do those miracles which His Father permitted him to do.
In a third-world environment, where I live, the life expectancy at birth is about 40 years and there is no contraception. The under-5 mortality is about 50%. Hence funerals are ubiquitous. This is the case in all eras and cultures without modern medical care. It is hard to travel anywhere for more than a mile without coming across a funeral. Jesus lived in Nazareth. It explicitly states that he could not do any miracles there aside from healing a few people. Hence he did not raise anyone from the dead in Nazareth. If he lived there for even a week and appeared in public, there was no way that he could have avoided a funeral. If he did see a funeral, the dead stayed dead.
At the pool of Bethesda, there were many ill, yet he healed one. How long would it take for the paralytic’s mat neighbor to yell “Me Too!!”? In another passage it states that the power of God was with Him to heal at a particular time. This would be meaningless if it were always present.
Hence the cessationist demands that authentic charismatic gifting has to be an any-time, any-place phenomenon is not tenable. In my context, the gospel came in the 1920’s and 30’s, largely through cessationist missionaries. When the missionaries were deported in the late 30’s, the charismatic gifts were in evidence within the infant national church in abundance, God confirming His word by signs and wonders. There was living memory of these miracles when we first came here. These phenomena faded as the church matured but then recurred at various times of persecution.
About 2 years ago, as a result of divine revelation, there were mass conversions of people in a hostile-to-Christ cultural environment. I personally, regularly interact with some of these believers, mbb’s, so this is no hearsay. It’s the book of Acts all over again. However, miracles occur at the time and location and circumstances determined by the Spirit. No one can tell Him He has to and no one can tell Him that He can’t. He does what He jolly well pleases.
Jesus could not do many miracles in some places because of their unbelief. The cessationists confirm themselves in their unbelief by expecting authentic charismatic miracles to be at the will of the human channel. They are not, they were not, and they never will be. If a cessationist with an open mind wants to see for himself, let him minister in an emerging church context or in a persecuted church context.
As I read of the “open but cautious” camp, and how, every time leadership moves to this position, the charisma seem to come in to the group in question. This lends considerable weight to the probability that, by being “open but cautios”, such leadership might begin to honestly, and without predisposition, look into these things. If the “continuationist” position were truly faulty, how would it so often “invade” where a strict cessationist position once held sway? I’ve known of several churches which were staunch opponents of “charismania”, only to find themselves, sometimes beginning with the outspokenly opposing leadership, later embracing the “spiritual gifts”, getting the left boot of fellowship from their staunchly opposed denomination, and continuing on to become thriving and very effective forces for the Kingdom in their cities. I’ve also personally witnessed, to my own great astonishment, the operation of what I can only deem to be solid scripturally sound operation of several of the gifts supposedly having “ceased”.
Now, on the other hand, it is indisputable that many take these things to ungodly extremes..and I’ve witnessed, and been victim of, far too much of that. But let’s don’t have the baby out with the bath. “Repent and be saved” has suffered no less abuse in our day and culture, but we’ve not had done with that, have we? It is just as foolish to have it all out the window as to blindly embrace anything coming down the pike with the appropriate “label” displayed. As mentioned above, if Christ GAVE those gifts to His church early on to serve as “tools” for its building, then how can we, observing it is not done building yet (He has not yet returned bodily, has He?) then HOW can we stand and declare, as mere men, that He has withdrawn those gifts, as some alledge? (same goes for the five-fold gifts ennumerated in Ephesians 4:11 ff..given UNTIL…….which ends have not yet been fulfilled).
To be sure, abuses abound…..we being mere men. But on reading of another aereoplane hitting the ground upon its landing attempt and killing 200 people, do we refuse to ever get on one ourselves? No, the end of this discussion must needs be an accurate treatment of those gifts as given, with an open and honest look at what ensamples might be found in our century, and how those gifts are presently functioning along their intended purpose. And no, making the “user” to “feel good” is not the intended end of these gifts. Seeking the gifts as ends is equally bankrupt. But they HAVE been given, and we seal them into a dank and dusty cupboard, relegating them to some age in the distant past, at our peril. The one who asserts these gifts are first-order of importance for the health of the Church mightn’t be far off the mark.
While I am open to the logic a cesseationist might present, and I agree that we need to interpret scripture correctly, I tend to come down on the side of Paul, Mary, and Lewsta – for the reasons they outline above. However, for a different way of looking at this issue, consider the following – presented seriously:
On this board, I am told that the non-elect cannot recognize any work of God or the Holy Spirit because they are spiritually dead. I am told that the elect will be kept by God until the work of salvation has been completed at His return, basically once saved always saved. I am told that those who fall away after many years of apparent christian service did not fall away by their choice since we have no choice in the matter of salvation; therefore, they must not have ever been elect to begin with. In spite of their apparent working for God’s kingdom and casting out demons in His name, they were non-elect from the beginning. And finally, again, I am told that the non-elect cannot recognize any work of God or the Holy Spirit because they are spiritually dead. And basically we cannot know who the elect are until the judgement day – since we cannot predict who might fall away in the future, and if one falls away, it is because they were never elect to begin with – no matter how much “work” for Christ and the church they may have done while “saved”.
Thinking thusly, and following the impeccable logic of the Reformed faith, I am left knowing that I dare not trust the word of any Reformed person, ever. Because they might not be the elect, and we cannot know if they will fall away until Judgement Day. And if they are not the elect, they cannot know or understand anything about God or the Holy Spirit. And if they, being spiritually dead, cannot know or recognize any work of God or the Holy Spirit – how then can I trust them when they say that any particular gift of the Holy Spirit no longer operates today? If they are not elect, and they are spiritually dead and cannot recognize any work of God or the Holy Spirit, of course they are going to insist that said works are absent. “If I can’t see them, they do not exist”.
I am not trying to be cheeky here. This is a serious logic problem that no Reformed person I have talked with ever admits to seeing. As I’ve said elsewhere on this board, I am not arguing against the Reformed position. I am simply seeking to understand it. So far, no Reformed person has been able to talk me past the stumbling block I’ve presented above.
I am re-reading this series and postings. I hear you, Richard P.
So much to pray about.
Response to Richard P about how can you trust someone who may be wrong because they are not elect.
Richard the more important question is how can you be sure you are elect? And if you are nto how can you be sure you are not posessed by the devil and speaking in tongues or vain babblings as a result of that?
The Bible is very clear that we are to beware of false doctrine and false teachers. We must have good doctrine and maintain the doctrine Paul taught. Like those very clear teachings of predestination Eph1 and that god chose some and it is not up to our will as in Rom 9 and else where that He any get the glory for our salvation and we not have any reason to boast, like glad I decided for Christ. The reformed person has been taught of God in opposition to doctrines that come natural to the natural man, that God by his Spirit draws us to Him, opens our eyes, chooses us, give us a new birth and new nature that is willing to come to Christ and gives us faith to believe and repent.
Now if a person is too boastful and want to elevate human will to having a part in salvation rather than giving God all glory and submitting to the word until he more clearly understands all of it, how can you trust that man to be saved or have spiritual discernment? All the questions one has about apparently conflicting scriptures has been explained and answered to anyone’s sensible and rational need. All one must do is read articles on these subjects and objections all over the internet.
I was raised in thinking it was up to me to decide to. But God opened my eyes to the historical truth of the church that is is all of grace, we will not seek God, or do good, until God who has chosen us in Him before the foundations of the world according to His good pleasure, gives us a new nature that desires to come to God.
As says the word, will you believe this or deny Christ and continue in pride and disbelief and rebellion and not follow Jesus as most of His followers did when He told them this?
John 6:65-68
“For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 Jesus said therefore to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
NAS
In His Service,
Don P