Thanks for sharing that, Julio. That’s actually the truth for every Christian who ever lived. It’s wonderfully expressed there. Thanks again.

At the age of twelve, having been raised a Catholic, I took note of a believer’s life. I was attracted to a friend’s manner of living.

And yet, I found Jesus only when my friend invited me to his church and I got to hear the Gospel for the first time. It was a fire and brimstone moment. The Gospel is an offense to many but to us who believe, it is the power of God unto salvation. The message of the Gospel was magnified by my friend’s holy life and love for God.

I recall a great quote: “Truth without Love is cruelty but Love without Truth is hypocrisy”. Love must be balanced with Truth. It seems this point is being discussed in the thread.

All I would like to say is that if it wasn’t for someone telling me I was a sinner, lost on my well to hell and in need of the Saviour, I would still be lost and dead in my sins. My friend’s holy living surely made the Gospel attractive. I thank God someone loved me enough to share the truth.

I do not base my beleif on a quote not from the Bible. I seems that over the several weeks that I have posted here that it would be clear to readers of dicernement that my beleif or faith, not matter whether they agree or disagree, is based upon the scriptures to which I have refered.

It is all very simple. God Loves us. He wants us to Love him enought to let Him work through us so we may be fulfilled. He sent Jesus as a model and teacher. Jesus died so that we may live. Jesus taught us that the greatest thing we can do is Love. Jesus taught that there are but two Commandments, to Love God totally and Love your neigbor as ourselves. We are taught not to judge others and to take of our sins before we trifle over others sins.

Pretty simple stuff. Easy to understand if understanding is the goal. We could go on forever and still not know the “number of angel that can dance on the head of a pin.” Man has made complex what Jesus hanging on the cross made simple.

I understand that you beleive we must point out evil and tell people of their erring ways. Reasonable people can agree to disagree.

In Love,

Roy

PS Thanks to all the people who have visited my little blog.

I find it interesting that you base your belief that I espouse things not in Scripture on a quote not from the Bible. St. Francis was a great guy, but that understanding of the gospel is seriously flawed. To preach the gospel is to use words, indeed “the very words of God” (1 Peter 4). The message is preached. In Acts, 16 different English verbs and 19 different Greek verbs describe the proclamation of the Gospel, and they all refer to speech. Romans 10 tells us that faith comes by hearing, and not seeing or watching. 1 Peter tells us we were born again by the word. Paul tells Timothy, “Follow the pattern of sound words.”

I’m not saying that we should be entirely inconsistent in our actions; or if we just say the right things it doesn’t matter how we live. No, our life is a great testimony to our message. But it’s the message preached that saves, not our lives lived according to the message. God was pleased “by the foolishness of preaching…” not the foolishness of good examples. We are called to proclaim truth.

Now, in no way does that mean that I think we’re to poke our heads into people’s lives and say, “Nope, doin that wrong. Unh-uh.. doin that wrong too. Oh man! What’s goin on there?! That’s gotta go!” What I am saying is that we have a commission to take this message to all people all over the world, and that message is: “You’re sinful. You await the righteous judgment of God because of your sin. But look upon Jesus as the Son of God, Messiah, and Savior of the world who is given that we may have life. Who offered Himself as a sacrifice to stand in the place of all sinners who repent and believe in Him.”

That’s the message. The message is not: “Hey, see how different I am? Don’t you wish you could be different too? Yeah… Jesus made me this way. You don’t know Jesus, you say? Well, let me tell you about Him.” That’s what a lot of people believe the message is, but with no misgivings, they’re wrong.

One more thing. This doesn’t mean that I’m not living in the freedom of Christ. I’m not sitting here trying to labor to get saved or sanctified. I know the sweetness of the sufficiency of Christ’s death. I know that I have the victory over the penalty and the power of sin in Him. I know He gives me that victory freely and I don’t have to work for it. I know that to fight sin is the negative way to say, positively, “to see Christ.” I know that only by looking into His face, seeing His glory manifested in all His attributes (not only His love, mercy, and grace, but also even in His sovereignty, His justice, and His wrath), and enjoying Him that I will come to love Him and find satisfaction in Him more than all my sins. I hear you trying to affirm that, and I’m glad that you’re trying because not enough people are. There are too many people focused on fighting the sin and not seeing the Christ.

But we can’t leave our commission behind for the sake of this. We can’t think that the two are opposed to each other. We have to know that our message is founded upon the very Word of God, and we have a command to speak those words, which are perfect, and not to broadcast our lives, which are broken, imperfect, and laden with sin, no matter how sanctified we get in this life. No, our lives will never save anyone because we groan while in this tent that will pass away. But oh! the sufficiency of God’s own revelation that He has commanded us to take to the world! His Words do something that our lives could never live out in our sin-cursed flesh. They go out and convict sin, they regenerate, they give life, they open the eyes, they restore and comfort the soul (Ps 19:7-10).

Let us not devalue the sufficiency of God’s Word to save by elevating our own lives and putting them in It’s place.

The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?” declares the LORD. “Is not My word like fire?” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?” — Jeremiah 23:28-29

For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. — Isaiah 55:10-11

That is kind of the whole point. All of us come to Jesus from different backgrounds at different points in our lives. As Jesus takes us as we are, the path to perfection in the Spirit is different for each of us.

What you espouse that I do not believe is that we are commanded to give unsolicited correction to others about their behavior.

The best quote I can think of is “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.” St. Francis Assisi. When we let the Love given us by God through Jesus show in our lives people will notice. They might not ask but they notice. In that interaction open a chance to witness with words, but it i sour lives that pave the way. When you tell a person what they are doing wrong they become defensive and close off communication.

I grew up in the church. I knew my Bible by the time I was 19. It was at 19 when God reached in and changed my life. When he did I was confused because he did not change the one thing that caused me the greatest conflict in my Faith.

I now know that there was a reason why he left that behind. God left my great sin behind so that I might learn what it means to be put apart and cast out.

All I can do is to live my faith and tell people when invited what I believe to be true. What you believe to be true is between you and God. I would hope that in just this discussion one can see how easily a person can become defensive - even in Christ.

In Love,

Roy

I do not use the word Love to validate or lightly. What I say is my own experience and my own belief. I believe it to be true. Why would I say something that I did not believe to be true?

I never said that by “saying that the OT saints (not unbelieving Israel, but believing Israel) were saved by faith and experienced the Spirit automatically makes me not accepting the freedom that Christ gave us.” I said that your position or belief gave me insight that made me understand better why people hold so dearly to the Law when we are freed from it.(why people are unable to accept the freedom that Christ gave us) That is quite a different thing.

What do think that agenda is. A straw man is a cover or front for a questionable enterprise. What do you think my questionable enterprise could be.

Because you espouse ideas that I do not believe are supported by the scripture, I do not say that you have a hidden agenda. First, if you did it is of no concern to me. Second if you did I would have faith that I would not be swayed by it.

When I close with “In Love” it is a benediction as well as true Love for all who believe as I do or who do not. We do not have to agree to be in the body of Christ and in God’s Love.

My concern is that I live in the real world where most people I know think that Christians are narrow-minded judgmental hypocrites. I understand why they think that. I know that is not true but I am always amazed even in my own study group how quick people are to worry about other peoples sins rather than their own. I suppose that is human.

Paul spends a huge part of his ministry promoting Love. All of his admonitions about calling out sin is directed toward Christ Followers. I do not beleive Paul ever says that Christ followers should go out and tell non-Christ Followers how wicked they are.

We all sin and Christ Followers keeping each other in check is something that must be done with tact and toward people who welcome that. We are not to be the judge of what is right for another. That is God’s job, and I leave that to Him.

This Blog undertakes the task of discussion of opinions of what we believe to be the Truth of the Word. I just can’t deal with all the different Dogmas and Doctrines. Baptists dunk, Methodists sprinkle. Church “A” says if people in Church “B” do not show a certain fruit of the Spirit they are not saved. What I have tried to do is find the core Truth upon which all other things are subject. Jesus gave us that and three of the four gospels recount that.

If others want to try to live by some other law, that is between them and God. If that Law requires judging other people, that concerns me, but not overly so. God is in charge and no matter how bad we mess things up in the end His will, will be done.

In Love,

Roy

First, let me say that the closing “In love” doesn’t automatically make it OK to speak entirely without love. A disclaimer at the end doesn’t make something true.

I’m flabbergasted at how my saying that the OT saints (not unbelieving Israel, but believing Israel) were saved by faith and experienced the Spirit, automatically makes me not accepting the freedom that Christ gave us.

That’s a strawman and an agenda of your own.

Jews beleived that when they died there was no judgement day for them. They believed and I guess they still do that they were dead until risen from the grave in the last days. They were dependant upon the Prophets and Priest who they believed were led by a holy spirit.

They had the hope of the Messiah but never recognised Jesus as that. So they did not have Jesus at all becasue they did not believe they had Him.

Personally, I beleive that God is unchanging and what changes is mans view of God and the creation. The same God that created Adam, made a covenant with Abraham, and tolerated David, is the same God that Christians worship today.

In the OT the wages of sin was physical death as breaking the law of the church could get you stoned on the spot.

Finding a bunch of verses that talk about the Spirit of God proves little, except that you can pull together a bunch of scriptures. Clearly the Spirit of God was active in the OT. But it moved and worked as I said above on a collective basis among the priest and prophets. Jesus tell us that each of indiviually have the Holy Spirit working through us.

Is it not clear that God moving men to do things in the Old Testament is uniquely different than in the New Testament?

Reasonable people can agree to disagree. Reading your post helps me to understand why people are unable to accept the freedom that Christ gave us.

It is all rather like having the latest revised edition of a something and insisting on going back to the unrevised versions to prove a point that has been changed by the revised version.

Or that is how it is for me, what do I know,

In LOve,

Roy

No one is advocating self-correction. I’m advocating the preaching of the Gospel to a wicked and perverse generation, just because the Bible tells me to.

Your comment about picking and choosing is just out of place. If I can quote passages in the Bible that say something clearly, do I have to have a quorum or a plurality of Scripture to make it true? Does that mean after I do that other Scripture is false because there was more Scripture to contradict it? That’s blasphemy! Obviously if there are passages that teach that we are to rebuke others for their sin, we should do it. If the Bible also teaches that we are to trust Christ and live in the Spirit for our sanctification — which it does — then we should do that too. And we shouldn’t conclude, because of our own shortsightedness, that the two are contradictory. What we should do is understand that if both are taught they’re not contradictory and seek to understand how both work.

Now, you’re saying that the OT saints didn’t have Jesus or the Holy Spirit is just patently untrue. Let us not deceive ourselves with the notion that God dealt with Israel based on a system of works and with the Church based on a system of faith. Salvation has always been by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. It’s true that the Holy Spirit hadn’t been poured out in the hearts of believers until Pentecost, but to say that the OT saints didn’t have the Spirit of God is to demonstrate ignorance of the entire old Testament.

And it’s true that Jesus hadn’t come in the flesh, but He is the One in whom all things hold together. That’s true in OT and NT times and forever. He was part of the “Us” when God said, “Let Us make man in Our image.” Isaiah prophesied because He saw Jesus’ glory.

As for the Spirit, below are some of the instances where He shows up in the OT. Hopefully you won’t see this as picking and choosing.

The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. — Gen 1:2

Then the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh.” Gen 6:3

I have filled him with the Spirit of God in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all kinds of craftsmanship, — Ex 31:3, 35:21

Then the LORD came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again. — Numbers 11:25

So the LORD said to Moses, “Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him.” — Numbers 27:18

So the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon; and he blew a trumpet, and the Abiezrites were called together to follow him. — Judges 6:34

When they came to the hill there, behold, a group of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him mightily, so that he prophesied among them. — 1 Sam 10:10

You gave Your good Spirit to instruct them,Your manna You did not withhold from their mouth,And You gave them water for their thirst. — Nehemiah 9:20

The Spirit of God has made me,And the breath of the Almighty gives me life. — Job 33:4

Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. — Psalm 51:11

The Spirit then entered me and made me stand on my feet, and He spoke with me and said to me, “Go, shut yourself up in your house. — Ezekiel 3:24

On the other hand I am filled with power–With the Spirit of the LORD–And with justice and courage To make known to Jacob his rebellious act,Even to Israel his sin. — Micah 3:8