I do not understand your view of election. You said, “Those who are in Christ are the elect.The election to salvation is only for those in union with Christ. This is what was planned before the foundation of the world. In Eph. 1 : 14 , Paul writes about those who were included in Christ when they heard the word of truth. Those who heard and obeyed are the corporate elect .” You already know that election came first, because we have been the elect since…well, since God elected us. I am not understanding your definition.

Wrong again. In Ephesians 1:13, Paul writes about those who were sealed after listening to the message of the truth and believing.

This is so absurd. If you just read the chapter and say what it says, everything’s spelled out for you. Election comes first (vv. 3-6). That’s before anything happens. Before absolutely anything in redemptive history, God contemplates the situation of man and sin, and elects to save a remnant of sinful people.

Then, Paul and the Apostles get saved (vv. 7-12) when God lavishes His riches upon them. Doesn’t say anything about them doing anything. He just lavishes the riches of forgiveness upon them through Christ’s blood (that actually atones for their sins and actually forgives them). Then, after salvation, not before, He made His will known to the Apostles. And that is to sum up all things in Christ. So we even see it here. God seeks, not man. Man seeks only after God has lavished forgiveness on us and given us eyes to see (regeneration).

Then, Paul describes how the Ephesians got saved (vv. 13-14). Wayyyyyyyy after election before the foundation of the world, the Ephesians — in the 1st century AD — listened to the message of the truth, and believed the gospel. When they did this, they were sealed, not elected. Even in this passage it shows the chronology. Election was way up in vv. 3-6. Salvation is way down in vv. 13-14.

So what happened? This was in my response to Richard. Before the foundation of the world the Ephesians were elected and predestined to be adopted as sons of God. Then, in time, having already been elect, but not yet being saved, they heard the Gospel. So here we have elect unbelievers hearing the Gospel. Then, these elect unbelievers get reborn/regenerated by this Gospel, this word of truth that was preached to them (cf. 1 Peter 1:23-25). Then, these newly regenerated elect unbelievers BELIEVE! There’s faith. Now they’re saved. Their salvation, which was determined for them before the foundation of the world, is now applied to them in time. That’s the seal that Paul talks about.

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Read this only after you’ve completely understood the above.

Also, about your post about being robots… First of all, congratulations on your originality. No one’s heard that before. Secondly, yes, it’s all miraculous. It’s blasphemous to say otherwise. Salvation and sanctification are entirely miraculous and are in no way natural. You can think that we’re robots before salvation, because all we do is love sin and hate God and choose sin and not God. After salvation, though, our will is no longer enslaved, but set free to serve God. Again, the will is free to act in the boundaries of its nature. Before salvation, sin nature. After salvation, divine nature. So we’re not just puppets in that we have no emotions or choices in anything. We choose all the time. But our mechanism for making choices before salvation never chooses God. After salvation, our mechanism for making choices is such that we never not choose God in a salvific sense. When we sin, we choose sin over God, but not in such a way that we can be lost… because were kept by Christ.

Think of it this way: I get set free from prison. But I still wear my prison clothes. So because I’m so used to being in a certain place when I have my prison clothes on, from time to time I wander back into my prison cell, even though I’m a free man. I can choose to go outside and live as a free man. But because my prison clothes are indeed still deceitful, I choose to sit in my cell.

You said, “Before the fondation of the world God planned a plan and that plan was that those who chose Him would be the elect.”

You are wrong. Election was first. I have already explained this to you. Election was first. Election was first. Election was first. Election happened before the foundation of the world. We do not “become” the elect. We either are the elect already, or we will never be the elect. No one is ever added to or taken away from the number of the elect, because election happened first. The elect are those who have been chosen by God before the foundation of the world. Yes those who have placed their faith in Christ are the elect, but they did not become the elect when they did so. In fact, they did so because they were already the elect. There are some even now who are the elect who have not placed their faith in Christ. God has chosen them before the foundation of the world. Of course, we do not know who these people are. That is why we must evangelize. No one will ever be saved who is not already the elect. This is because ELECTION CAME FIRST. There is no other correct definition of election, Ray.

You said, “Eph. 1 speaks about those who had chosen God as those who are in Christ and therefore the chosen , the predestined.”

They are not the chosen because they chose God. God chose them before the foundation of the world. That is why they are the chosen, and that is when they became the chosen. To say that they became the chosen is like the following situation: I am playing a game with a group of people. To start the game, I pick a team out of the group without telling anyone else who I picked. After this, it just so happens that those who I picked are placed on my team. To say that Christians become the chosen when they chose Christ is like saying that those on my team became the ones that I picked when they walked over to my side. No, Ray. That is ridiculous. They had already been chosen. The fact that they walked over to my side did not determine whether they had been chosen or not. In fact, whether they had been chosen or not determined whether or not they would walk over to my side.

Again, you must understand, we don’t negate this. We don’t deny that personal volition is involved in salvation. Of course you had a choice. Our point is that before anyone is sovereignly regenerated, they always make the choice that is “not-God” because of their sin nature. If anyone ever does make the choice that is “God,” it’s because they have been born again, their sin nature destroyed and are given a divine nature. Then, they see sin for what it is and Christ for who He is, in such a way that was impossible before and now is impossible to reject.

So then you weren’t chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. You became one of the elect after you chose, much after the foundation of the world.

Wrong.

God makes all the moves AND everyone is really responsible.

Do you find it disconcerting that you’re making the same argument that Paul himself is anticipating and refuting in Romans 9?

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”

The argument goes: If God really just arbitrarily elects to have mercy on whom He desires, and if He really just arbitrary elects to harden whom He desires, then no one can be responsible. He’s doing it all (no noe can resist His will), so He can’t fault someone for not doing things right.

And the answer is: You think too highly of yourself, little earthling. God is God. Not you. He can choose to do whatever He wants, whenever He wants, with whomever He wants, still require them to do something, and punish them for not doing it. “Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own?” (Matt 20:15).

The Bible maintains both complete divine sovereignty and human responsibility at the same time.