Re:Regarding the scripture reference error after the 2nd command, I believe it should be Genesis 31:32.

If that is the verse meant to be quoted by Kaiser, I’m afraid that it also doesn’t show evidence of the 2nd command prior to Ex. 20. The situation: Rachel has stolen the household idols from her father. Laban chases them down and asks why Jacob ’snuck away’, so to speak, and in verse 30 asks “…why did you steal my gods?”. Jacob responds that if Laban finds them with anyone in his party, whoever has them will die. “For Jacob did not know that Rachel had stolen them.” (vs 32) Jacob is not saying that having an idol is such a great sin, that he will kill anyone who has it. Jacob is not actually making a statement about ‘idols’. He’s speaking about the theft. I would find this story/verse to be more representative of mankind recognizing stealing to be wrong. Remember Jacob lived all those years with Laban. Apparently he did not teach Rachel that an idol (graven image) was wrong, or she wouldn’t have wanted to steal them. I don’t see this as evidence of the 2nd command and in no way supports the position that this command was written on man’s heart.

Amen.

Thanks for the response.

Grace and peace. All for Christ!

No we do not disagree.

“When you cling to sin and the struggle not to sin ( a futile one ) …”

I was not clear, it the attempt to rid ourselves of sin, or try to be “good” that causes the denegration. Paul says that only by yeilding to Christ do we die to the power of sin. Preachin g “commandments that must be met” as a cure for sin distacts us from the focus on the Love of God.

My trust is not in commandments, but in Jesus and his power to perfect me in his time, not mine or any other persons.

In Love,

Roy

Paul said he was the chief of all sinners. Did he denigrate the Cross of Christ?

I love the Cross of Christ. He died for my sins, and His forgiveness is beyond understanding for me. But my heart knows that Christ has forgiven me. Even the pride I have right now.

The commandment is to love God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind. And That’s exactly what Christ did every second of His life, and He imputes this righteousness to me, and He took my sins upon His broken body, and washed me clean in His blood.

i love Him now, because He first loved me. And if i do any boasting it’s in Him, and the Cross, where i have been crucified with Christ, and against the world, and the world is crucified to me.

Thanks for the dialog, but we are going to have to disagree I suppose.

If Paul was the chief of sinners, what’s that make us.

Thus, “How the world still dearly loves a cage.” If you want to be free, be free. Jesus has already bought and paid for that freedom. When you cling to sin and the struggle not to sin ( a futile one ) then you denigrate the sacrifice Jesus made for us to be free.

Roy

Regarding the scripture reference error after the 2nd command, I believe it should be Genesis 31:32.

You’re missing New Covenant Theology (NCT) in your list.
See 5 Views on Law and Gospel (Douglas Moo).

NCT > Disp ;p

There is also a large disparty between Progressive Disp and Classical Disp, almost as much as there is between Theonomy and Covenant Theology (CT). Can’t simply call it “Dispensationalism” and do justice to it.

Thanks for the analysis. The list I posted was drawn from the two sources that I noted above … the pre-Exodus stuff primarily coming from Kaiser’s work on OT ethics.

The reference after the second command is obviously incorrect. So, I’ll have to go back to Kaiser to see what the correct verse there is.

Thanks for your thoughts.
NB

The Ten Commandments before Moses:

1)First Command- Gen. 35:2, this is where Jacob tells his household and all who were with him to “put away the foreign gods which are among you”. Notice this is from a man to whom God had repeatedly revealed Himself (Gen. 28:10-15; 31:4-13; 32:1-2, 24-30; 35:1). At least one of the ‘foreign gods’ which they were to put away was the household idol that Rachel had taken from her father’s house. Jacob had lived all those years with Laban, who had a household idol. This example in no way shows that this law was written on man’s heart.

2)Second Command- Gen. 31:39, this verse says nothing about graven images. Chapters 32, 33, 34 and 35 don’t have 39 verses, so I’m not sure which verse you were referring to. I don’t think there is an example of mankind recognizing that a graven image is wrong prior to Ex. 20:4. If there is, it is because God had revealed Himself to a particular individual.

3)Third Command- Gen. 24:3, is where Abraham makes his servant swear by the LORD, the God of heaven and earth, that he would not take (or get) a wife for his son from the daughters of the Canaanites. Obviously, Abraham was a man to whom God had revealed Himself. Abraham makes his servant swear by the LORD that he would not get a wife from among the Canaanites for Isaac. This does not show that mankind had this law written on their heart (taking God’s name in vain). I’m sure that pagans swore by the name(s) of their god(s). There is no biblical evidence that mankind knew it wrong to misuse the name of the true God, especially since most of them believed in false gods.

4)Fourth Command- Gen. 2:3, this is the creation account. God, Himself rested on the seventh day. There is no positive command for Adam to do so. In fact, at this point, Adam (and thus the world) had not fallen, so there was no need for a ‘Sabbath rest’. There is no biblical record that anyone prior to Ex. 16 practiced a Sabbath, and Ex. 16 clearly shows that this was something given to Israel at this time, not to mankind at an earlier date.

5)Fifth Command- Gen. 27:41, Esau bearing a grudge against Jacob. I don’t know if this is the best example (Esau would wait until his father died before killing Jacob), but it is clear from Scripture that mankind recognized that it was right to honor/obey one’s parents, and wrong to dishonor them.

6)Sixth Command- Gen. 4:9, murder. There is good biblical evidence that mankind recognized that murder was wrong prior to Ex. 20.

7)Seventh Command- Gen. 39:9, Joseph knew it was a sin against God to sleep with Potiphar’s wife. I think there are even earlier examples that mankind knew to take another’s wife was wrong (i.e. Gen. 12:18-19).

8)Eighth Command- Gen. 44:4-7, Joseph’s brothers. There is biblical evidence that mankind understood it was wrong to steal prior to Ex. 20.

9)Ninth Command- Gen. 39:17, is Potiphar’s wife saying that Joseph had attempted to lie with her. This in itself doesn’t show that ‘bearing false witness’ was recognized as wrong, but there is evidence that mankind knew this prior to Ex. 20.

10)Tenth Command- Gen. 12:18, the Pharaoh took Sarah to be his wife because she was beautiful, and he did not know she was Abraham’s wife. Again, this is not a good example of coveting something that belongs to another, because the Pharaoh had been told that Sarah was Abraham’s sister. Gen. 12:11-12 might be a better demonstration (including murder), where Abraham says that the Egyptians will want her because she is beautiful and kill him.

I don’t think anyone was attacking you. We were discussing the Scriptures at least I was.

There’s a lot more to the Bible than just loving God and loving your neighbor. There are 66 books that God wrote, and I’m sure He desires we read, study, and meditate upon all His truth.

I agree though, loving the Lord Jesus Christ is our first command, and loving others is like the first. Amen.

There’s so much in the Bible to help us do this! I love the Word of God, and like I commented earlier, some of Paul’s teachings are hard, and we need to study, and God has given us pastors to teach us as well.

The Old Testament, especially the Prophets are very difficult to understand.

Have you ever read Ezekiel? I’m reading it now, and it is very difficult to understand. But I believe God wants us to read His Word. Why else would He write it?

Have a blessed day brother.