New Covenant Theologian Mike Adams is doing a friendly preliminary critique of the Fall ‘07 edition of the TMSJ here: http://idsblog.com/?p=107

Thanks for continuing the discussion regarding the Law. It is very interesting and thought provoking. God bless!

“For you are not come unto the Mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, …. But you are come unto the Mount Zion and unto the city of the Living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, … to Jesus the mediator of the New Covenant.”

Pat,
I should think that your above observation and questioning would matter VERY MUCH to my brethren in Jerusalem who have received the Spirit of the LORD through faith in Messiah. Even more importantly it will matter very greatly to ANYONE in the Relions of “Human Works unto Salvation” such as for instance is advocated by Islam and Romanism. Also we need to consider the dangers that assailed the Church in Corinth: Lewdness and sexual immorality where some of the greatly tolerrated sins for which they where Convicted and Reproofed,BECAUSE they used the GRACE of God to seek opportunity for sin:

1 Corinthians 8:9
“But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak.”

Galatians 5:1
“Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.”

Galatians 5:13
“For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.”

1 Peter 2:16
“…as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.”

The Law of God should not be treated as some Ogure or vile thing; it is beautiful and sets forth the Charecter and Will of the LORD our God, yet NO MAN can attain unto it; but Christ Jesus. So where He has come to fulfill the LAw it does not mean to say that we seek reason NOT to be a part of the Law, but that where we fail in DOING HIS WILL and loving Him, Christ has completed that in the LAw which we are unable to COMPLETE. We are to SEEK the Fulfillment of the WILL of God, but we are not under BONDAGE to IT, we are willingly offering our lives as a sacrifice, knowing the true value of the GRACE by which we have been bought UNTO NEWNESS of LIFE.

If I understood you correctly this discussion goes deeper than you think . Our relationship to the Law determines what God’s commandments are for the chruch. You said both sides agree that we keep the Law. Yet, both sides do not agree. Examples -Should we keep the Sabbath? Can we eat pork? Should we celebrate the Old Testament feasts? The relationship of the New Testament church to the Law is very imprtant and worth considerable study.

I think that the above references to the Tahnakh and in particular the Torah is just wonderful. It is to me a real evidence for the relation of Spiritual Israel of all ages, both among believers in the National Israel and in the Church (Comprising of National and Gentile Israel - Gal 3:28).

Romans 9:6
“But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel”

Steve excellent comment thread! Some very good explanitory observations and questions!

I have been listening to the Masters Seminary Chapels concerning NCT and it blows me away that they want to do away with Believing Spiritual Israel of old (Prior to the first coming of Messiah). That to me is a very dangerous theology which contradicts Scripture:

Romans 4:9
“Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.”

Galatians 3:28
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

Romans 4:13
“For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.”

(I believe Nathan is in the process of exposing this Scripture, so I will not spoil his work here)

Hebrews 11:7
“By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.”

(In fact the whole of Hebrews 11 point to a Believing - Faithful - Hebrew people; Spiritual Israel)

Romans 4:16
“Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all”

(Again here we can clearly see Paul attesting to the fact that we have always and will only be saved by GRACE through FAITH, again my understanding says in lieu of Romans 9-11, we are grafted INTO Spirtual Israel the Root of David, Messiah Yeshua - Jesus our LORD.)

Galatians 3:7
“Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.”

Galatians 3:8
“And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.””

(So the Law it seems to me NEVER Saved anyone, but is a standard which God applies to Believers; wherby we shine forth His glory to an unbelieving world and when we apply the Law to our lives - Not under bondage to the Law, but in Liberty- We do inherit Spiritual and Physical blessings from our LORD. Thus we can bring Glory and Honor to Him who the Law reflects the very Charecter of, our LORD God Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit).

I hope that my understanding does not upset anyone, but I must admit that I am not a supercessionist and I hold firm to the Root of my Faith hwich has been delivered through Messiah. Yet, I am NOT under the yokke of Bondage to the Law, but as previously stated, it is my delight to learn more and apply more the Law of Righteousness by Grace. I believe in an eternal singular method of salvation - By Grace alone through Faith alone and I hope this is substantiated by the above Scriptures.

But I MUST also emphasise that Romans 14 applies to me in the area of applying grace to mey brethren who are mostly Covenant Theology brethren. I do appreciate their Fear for the LORD and therefore I cannt ever condemn them for it, as they Fear Him as unto Him. Yet for the New Covenant Theologians… may I just remind those berthren to tread very carefully regarding the Law of Christ and the Law of the LORD:

Jude 1:4
“For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into LEWDNESS and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Romans 7:7-8:1

“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? CERTAINLY NOT! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. THEREFORE THE LAW IS HOLY, AND THE COMMANDMENT HOLY and JUST and GOOD.

Has then what is good become death to me? CERTAINLY NOT! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through WHAT IS GOOD, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I AGREE WITH THE LAW THAT IT IS GOOD. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I DELIGHT in the LAW OF GOD according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus, who DO NOT walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.”