I hope that my comments did NOT seem to be implying that Nathan, The Masters Seminary nor indeed Grace Community Church where advocating NCT.
Perhaps I failed to say that I have every confidence in your abilities individually and collectively to treat the matters of Theology with the due care it deserves.

I can see that perhaps the approach taken is leading up towards a proper explenation, and I am convinced that this is perhaps where others have found it difficult to relate to where Nathan stands.
I am going to (Humbly) suggest that perhaps when we start a discussion, it Might be better to start with what it is NOT and then move towards what it IS we do understand from Scripture… I say this not as an intelligent man, but merely as a way of seeking better clarity to those that do NOT understand the Theology and Doctrines in the same fashion as you or I do. Also bearing in mind, that we would not always see Everything in exactely the same fashion, even in the same Seminary or Church (In the non Salvation Essentials).

That said, I do know that the Escathology of some of my brethren do not correspond with each other, and I know that some can see that as an area of difficulty. I myself find that it is hard to ascribe to a Full “adherence” of ANY Escathology, albeit that I would (As far as my current understanding allows) say that I am convinced very loosly and basically of a pre-millenial dispensational – eternal Covenant of Grace (The latter part being an Essential and unwavering Doctrine)…

I believe that I may one day have a clearer understanding of these deep issues of Theology, but I make it my concern to live a Romans 14 attitude in this area. Especially as it relates to me being the “child” in the faith.

As far as my bretheren are concerned I am sure that they each hold a valid understanding backed by the Scriptures. However I do not fully understand the TOTALITY of these Doctrines, apart from the fact that NCT is a completely amiss Theology. I definately do NOT believe ANY of my brethren or I would ever ascribe to it.

I guess we can learn from Church History that even great “Church fathers” had some Un-Biblical Theology, for example Luther who could possibly have been taken by NCT due to his personal Anti-Semetic views… Perhaps?

John Piper has said it well when said:(From my memory – not directly qouted)
When my mind cannot comprehend a Biblical doctrine, then I do not assume the Bible to be in error, but my human understanding is in error, because of the limitation in my understanding and my fallen nature.
The point being we MUST study Scripture to know Who our LORD is, but we will as humans not in this age be able to ABSOLUTELY know ALL the mysteries and FULLNESS of God.

May I suggest a next set of discussions on the nature of Spiritual Israel and it’s association with the Church? As seen from Romans 9-11?

And thank you for bearing with me. I pray and ask your forgiveness if my comments suggested that anything was not dealt with appropriately, this is not my intent. I guess when you know a person’s Theology, you may assume others do too, and this has been my error.

With love in the grace, mercy & compassionate cre of our Almighty LORD God Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit, our Redeemer.

Dear Trevor and William,

In actuality, I do not espouse New Covenant Theology. I believe this will be clarified as the series progresses. As I’ve noted in some prior comments, this is just my first proposition — the second will bring balance to the first. So I would humbly ask for a little more time to explain myself.

As Dan noted, our seminary just recently did a thorough critique of NCT. I wholeheartedly affirm their position on that issue.

In Christ,
Nathan

Luke 10:26-28
“He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live”

Matthew 22:36-40
““Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

This it is Christ who completes the Law, that does not mean to say we have no part in the Law.

By grace through a living Faith.

Hi brother Trevor,

I really am glad for your comments, it is easy to move into a New Covenant Theology, as described as you have.

I must admit that I do not agree fully with Nathan’s view, but I DO find it intriguing to consider his articles. I am not sure If you had been able to see my comments on Nathan’s posts, and would greatly value your comments.

I would confirm that my understanding of the Law is that I delight in it, that it is not burdensome, nor indeed am I under the yoke thereof, but I rejoice in it. I am Totally convicted under the Law of my personal iniquity and sin, and for that I am thankful, so that I may grow in sanctification as much as I am convicted by the Law through the working of the Spirit, just as originally unto salvation.

I lean towards a single Covenant of Grace unto salvation from the outset of Creation, as Abraham’s faith was accounted to him for righteousness – By grace through faith. By the Law I had been convicted through the Spirit of sin and righteousness and thus I am glad for the Law as it sets forth the example of the character of the LORD. I do also furthermore lean to an understanding that the LORD Yahweh is the One and the same from eternity past unto eternity future including the present, I see in Israel a distinction between “Spiritual” or Believing Israel and National or Ethnic Israel. As far as I can ascertain as a layman, Romans 9-11 speaks to a unity between all Spiritual Believers throughout eternity; but I accept my lack of education in that. My deduction is thus that I am in envy (Good and bad) of Ethnic Israel in as far as the law pertains to blessing, but as Spiritual Israel I rejoice in the grace of God, despite the Law… I do hope this makes sense, I basically look to honor the LORD by the Law, as best a fallen creature can, without seeking to fulfill the desire of the flesh. But I am totally secure by grace apart from the Law and thankful for the election by grace through faith. After all Faith apart from works is dead. Thus by my obedience to the works prepared beforehand (Ephesians 2-8-10) in the Law, I seek to honor God to His glory because of the grace with which I have been begotten again unto a new and living Hope in Messiah Jesus.

Sorry, for the “outpouring”….

I will be away tomorrow and am quite tired from going out today, but I WILL endeavor to share your comments on Pulpit Magazine as soon as I can.

I really enjoyed reading your comments and look forward to future “discussions” that will lead to edification in truth.

Do you wish me to share your thoughts to my e-mailing listing also? I will gladly do so.

With much appreciation.

By grace alone,

William
—– Original Message —–
From: T CARLISLE
To: William Duplooy
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: No Longer Under the Law (Part 1)

Dear William,

I feel it necessary to respond to the articles on the law by Nathan Busenitz presently being disseminated widely. Are you familiar with Dispensationalist or New Covenant Theology ? There is an alternative hermeneutic to that given by brother Busenitz on the doctrine of the law. Indeed it is the historic, traditional and ( believed by almost every weighty theologian of the past five hundred years ) biblical view. As my server will not allow me to block send my response to brother Busenitz would you in the interest of fairness send out my comments in order that others might consider them.

Your brother in Christ,

Trevor Carlisle

—————————————————

This article is seriously flawed at the outset. The author makes the mistake of failing to recognise that the Decalogue ( Ten Commandments ) or Moral Law is unique and not merely ‘ Mosaic ‘. The Apostle Paul reminds us of this fact when he states that the Moral Law pre-dates Moses and Sinai, and was written on men’s hearts from creation. ( Romans 2 v 14,15 ) How was it possible for the Apostle to inform his readers that the gentiles who had not the law ( i.e. the law in ‘ book ‘ form ) were yet in some way obedient to the law ? The answer he tells us, was that the law was written upon their hearts. There can be no doubt that the law Paul refers to is the Decalogue when he speaks of the law in this passage because he actually cites the eighth v 21, the seventh v 22, and the second or possibly the tenth ( depending upon the interpretation of the reference to idols ) also v 22. The author takes exception to the traditional, historical categorising of the branches of the law into Moral, Civil and Ceremonial. His justification for doing this he states is because …” the Jews either did not acknowledge it or at least did not insist on it. ” But this is no reason at all to reject this classification of the law. The Jews got many things wrong which is why the Saviour was continually correcting their flawed hermeneutics and misinterpretations of God’s Word. Just as we do not object to the term Trinity, ( although as a word it does not appear in the Scriptures ) should we object to the terms Civil, Ceremonial and Moral, which although not appearing in Scripture do faithfully define and explain various aspects of the law ? Indeed the author himself, perhaps inadvertently, admits as much when he concedes that ” the law ” …” covered moral, civil and ceremonial aspects of life. ” So why then does he object to the classification ? What law were people under prior to Moses ? What law is written on the hearts of all men ? Was The Moral Law for Israel ? Yes, and for everyone else !! Man is a moral being created in God’s image and likeness and wherever man is found, without exception, he is under God’s moral law. This is why the Ten Commandments are indeed unique ! The author is advocating New Covenant Theology which is simply a radical form of Dispensationalism rejected by historic biblical Christianity.

Sincere regards

Trevor Carlisle

Amen, but man’s understanding does.

John tells us that God is Love. He got that from Jesus.

The scriptures say that which is of Love is of God and that which is not of Love is not of God. If all we need is God, the all we need is Love – but not the Beetles love.

One thing that is required when studing the Bible is discernment. We are spiritually free from the law, but we are not free from the physical consequences of our earthly walk. If I commit murder I will go to prison any maybe put to death, but if I ask for forgiveness I will be forgiven.

The site you list delves a bit to much in other people’s sin. One does not have to worship Idol, murder, or contract AIDS from destructive behavior, to be sinful. No sin is greater than another. It may be comforting to tell ourselves that there are bad people and they will get theirs, but sin separates all of us from God inless we yeild our lives to his. One of those horrible AIDS victims that a segment of the worldly church love to dwell on may be next to you in Heaven. Paul after all was a persecutor of Christians before the became the lead spokesperson for God. Careful how you judge others and be of more care about your sins.

I say that only as a caution. Your sins are between you and God, as are everyone elses. Teaching about the consequences of behavior is legitmate, and needed, but there is not one person on earth that is free from eathly behavior. We, Christ Followers, are all dead in the flesh and living in the spirit. God wants us to come to Him so he can lead us to less destructive lives.

In Love,

Roy

David B.,,good questions about witnessing to Jews. I would direct you to William Varner’s book The Messiah: Revealed, Rejected, Received (you can get it on Amazon), and also to web resources like Friends of Israel (at http://www.foi.org).

Scott, you asked me to define what I mean by being “under” the Law. It is language that I am borrowing from Romans 6:14-15, which says that “you are not under law but under grace” (cf. John 1:17). (Thanks to dec for his insightful comment on this above.) In our context, it refers to whether or not the Mosaic Law is still binding on New Testament believers, such that they are required (or even encouraged) to live out their faith by adhering to specific commands of the Mosaic Law. An applicable passage of Scripture would be Romans 7:4–6, where Paul writes, “Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.”

David McCrory, thanks for your comment. I agree that the same God gave both the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ. I would not agree, however, that there is no difference between those two laws. Clearly, God’s character never changes. But to say that the Law of Christ is the Law of Moses does not seem, to me, to accurately represent the NT texts that distinguish between the two. At the same time, I think I understand what you are trying to say, and I think in the end you’ll find that my view is not too far removed from yours.

JDS, thanks for urging patience. I do apologize to all for the time it takes to move through a series like this.

Marlon, Sharon, Gabriel, and Cindy, thanks for your thoughts. I greatly appreciate the feedback from everyone.

Steve, good references (1 Cor. 9:21; James 1:25 c.f. John 13:34; James 2:8,12 c.f. John 13:34). Also, a great question about Romans 2:14–15. If you don’t mind, I’m going to hold off on answering until we’re done with our series. But that is a key verse, and an important part of what I am hoping to establish here.

Again, thanks to all. It’s a joy to interact about the things of God and His Word!

May He be exalted in this discussion.
- NB