Comments on: No Longer Under the Law (Part 1) http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/ A Ministry of Shepherds' Fellowship Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:39:05 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.4 by: Steven Lamm http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-110282 Wed, 20 Feb 2008 16:31:35 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-110282 Gabriel, Thanks. I'll listen to is soon. Steve Gabriel,

Thanks. I’ll listen to is soon.

Steve

]]> by: Gabriel http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-110100 Wed, 20 Feb 2008 05:37:13 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-110100 Steve, I recently listened/watched to Ligon Duncan give a message on preaching the Old Testament at last year's Together for the Gospel conference. As a seminary student at TMS I can say that one of the hermeneutics professors would heartily agree with was Ligon says (MacArthur was at the conference too). Here's the link. http://www.ligonier.org/launch_mediacenter.php?tabID=1&id=385 Steve,

I recently listened/watched to Ligon Duncan give a message on preaching the Old Testament at last year’s Together for the Gospel conference. As a seminary student at TMS I can say that one of the hermeneutics professors would heartily agree with was Ligon says (MacArthur was at the conference too).

Here’s the link.

http://www.ligonier.org/launch_mediacenter.php?tabID=1&id=385

]]> by: Richard P http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-110089 Wed, 20 Feb 2008 04:27:44 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-110089 I have the same curiosity as J. Budill above, but I would expand his question somewhat. In doing so, these questions are likely beyond the scope of this topic and would fare better in their own topic on some other day (hint, hint). <i>What Law existed before Moses, the Exodus, and Mt Sinai?</i> I would expand that question to ask, what guided the spiritual life of everyone before Moses (e.g., Noah, Abraham). What guided the spiritual life of the Israelites in bondage in Egypt? Was there a communal worship, or was one's spiritual life isolated and personal - depending on whether God spoke directly to the person or not? If the spiritual life was communal, was there a written or verbal dictate to gather together to worship God? If yes, do we have record of that dictate? Etc. I don't intend for these questions to be discussed here (hopefully this digression won't change the nature of the ensuing comments), but these questions do pop out of this discussion. I have the same curiosity as J. Budill above, but I would expand his question somewhat. In doing so, these questions are likely beyond the scope of this topic and would fare better in their own topic on some other day (hint, hint).

What Law existed before Moses, the Exodus, and Mt Sinai? I would expand that question to ask, what guided the spiritual life of everyone before Moses (e.g., Noah, Abraham). What guided the spiritual life of the Israelites in bondage in Egypt? Was there a communal worship, or was one’s spiritual life isolated and personal - depending on whether God spoke directly to the person or not? If the spiritual life was communal, was there a written or verbal dictate to gather together to worship God? If yes, do we have record of that dictate? Etc.

I don’t intend for these questions to be discussed here (hopefully this digression won’t change the nature of the ensuing comments), but these questions do pop out of this discussion.

]]> by: Steve Lamm http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-110022 Wed, 20 Feb 2008 00:43:51 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-110022 Nathan, Looking forward to the rest of this series, and the footnotes for resources I can read myself. I trust that you will address the issue of how to properly use the OT in teaching and preaching. I find that most of the moral commands in the OT are repeated in the NT in some form, indicating that the moral commands are not bound only to the Jews as were the ceremonial laws. Therefore, I think it proper to show this agreement between OT and NT when teaching on such issues. I know that MacArthur does this often in his own sermons. In fact, Pastor John seems to use the OT most often when illustrating a NT truth which seems to me the primary way to illustrate NT truth. Isn't this what Paul was refering to in I Cor. 10:1-12? Blessings, Steve Nathan,

Looking forward to the rest of this series, and the footnotes for resources I can read myself.

I trust that you will address the issue of how to properly use the OT in teaching and preaching.

I find that most of the moral commands in the OT are repeated in the NT in some form, indicating that the moral commands are not bound only to the Jews as were the ceremonial laws. Therefore, I think it proper to show this agreement between OT and NT when teaching on such issues. I know that MacArthur does this often in his own sermons. In fact, Pastor John seems to use the OT most often when illustrating a NT truth which seems to me the primary way to illustrate NT truth. Isn’t this what Paul was refering to in I Cor. 10:1-12?

Blessings,
Steve

]]> by: Dan http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-110011 Wed, 20 Feb 2008 00:11:07 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-110011 "What Law existed before Moses, the Exodus, and Sinai?" Well we know murder and its judgment existed and was clearly revealed to mankind (Gen. 9:5-6). We could easily deduce adultery from Genesis 2. God judged the whole world based on violations of what is pure and righteous in the Great Flood. Did the Law invent anything new? S. Lewis Johnson said that many of the great doctrines of the Bible are revealed in germ form in the Book of Genesis. So pre-law we have much doctrine, and salvation by grace through faith alone (Rom. 4:9-16). I too have been studying and dialoguing with people in my church on this subject. Some who want to hold all Christians to the law of Sabbath, tithing, lending and borrowing, etc. The accusation is that I am nullifying the Law (Mat. 5:17). I look forward to your teaching Nate. “What Law existed before Moses, the Exodus, and Sinai?” Well we know murder and its judgment existed and was clearly revealed to mankind (Gen. 9:5-6). We could easily deduce adultery from Genesis 2. God judged the whole world based on violations of what is pure and righteous in the Great Flood. Did the Law invent anything new? S. Lewis Johnson said that many of the great doctrines of the Bible are revealed in germ form in the Book of Genesis. So pre-law we have much doctrine, and salvation by grace through faith alone (Rom. 4:9-16).
I too have been studying and dialoguing with people in my church on this subject. Some who want to hold all Christians to the law of Sabbath, tithing, lending and borrowing, etc. The accusation is that I am nullifying the Law (Mat. 5:17). I look forward to your teaching Nate.

]]> by: David M. http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-109971 Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:02:45 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-109971 It seems to me that if the law were binding on anyone (and I'm not saying it is, since it is repeatedly described as obsolete, inferior, etc.)then it would be on JEWS only since the Gentiles were told...in Acts 15: 19-20... Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, "but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. Any thoughts? It seems to me that if the law were binding on anyone (and I’m not saying it is, since it is repeatedly described as obsolete, inferior, etc.)then it would be on JEWS only since the Gentiles were told…in Acts 15: 19-20…

Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, “but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.

Any thoughts?

]]> by: J. Budill http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-109959 Tue, 19 Feb 2008 20:09:48 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-109959 Great discussion topic and series of articles, it is very interesting to study the Mosaic Law’s relevance to present-day Christians with such detail and insight. Some questions that could add to the discussion are: What Law existed before Moses, the Exodus, and Mt Sinai? When Jesus preached “Repent the Kingdom of God is near”, before the Gospel was fully revealed, in what way did he expect people to change? According to what laws? I am looking forward to the rest of the series. The comments and responses are rich in biblical perceptive as well, great forum. Thanks to all contributors, - Jeff Great discussion topic and series of articles, it is very interesting to study the Mosaic Law’s relevance to present-day Christians with such detail and insight. Some questions that could add to the discussion are:

What Law existed before Moses, the Exodus, and Mt Sinai?

When Jesus preached “Repent the Kingdom of God is near”, before the Gospel was fully revealed, in what way did he expect people to change? According to what laws?

I am looking forward to the rest of the series. The comments and responses are rich in biblical perceptive as well, great forum.

Thanks to all contributors,
- Jeff

]]> by: Chris http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-109958 Tue, 19 Feb 2008 20:00:30 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-109958 This is very helpful and something I have questioned and debated for a long time. I have recently come to the same conclusions you have already outlined, and so I am excited to see where you develop this. Thanks for doing this. This is an often misunderstood concept in our churches today, and judging by the feedback so far, it is evident many would appreciate a clear presentation of the Biblical facts. This is very helpful and something I have questioned and debated for a long time. I have recently come to the same conclusions you have already outlined, and so I am excited to see where you develop this. Thanks for doing this. This is an often misunderstood concept in our churches today, and judging by the feedback so far, it is evident many would appreciate a clear presentation of the Biblical facts.

]]> by: Cindy http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-109952 Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:32:43 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-109952 I don't find it hard to "hang in there" at all, this is gripping stuff, the potential to affect how one understands much of the Bible, even affecting one's view of history and present worldview. I've been trying to sort through these thoughts for a long time and appreciate the help from this series. Thank you. I don’t find it hard to “hang in there” at all, this is gripping stuff, the potential to affect how one understands much of the Bible, even affecting one’s view of history and present worldview. I’ve been trying to sort through these thoughts for a long time and appreciate the help from this series. Thank you.

]]> by: Ryan http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-109950 Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:20:09 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/19/no-longer-under-the-law-part-1/#comment-109950 On the proposition that ‘the biblical saints saw the Mosaic Law as a solitary unit’ I agree with one exception. I think careful study of what the Holy Spirit recorded as happening at Mt Sinai regarding what has come to be known as the 10 Commandments is appropriate. These 10 Commandments should probably be referred to as a distinct 10 Words, which is I believe what Jewish tradition as to what they were called for good reason. I think there is a very clear contextual distinctive regarding the delivery method of the 10 Commandments that clearly breaks until Jesus’ incarnation and transfiguration in which God stated, “This is my beloved Son; listen to him.” It is this break between God in auditory form speaking the 10 Commandments to the whole nation of Israel and Jesus’ incarnation in which the law is given for the specific reason that the people could not hear God’s words without dying. Working back from Deuteronomy 18:16-18 we understand that the Israelites directly asked to not here God's words anymore as they would die. God states it Deuteronomy 18:17 that they are in fact correct. The words, which God was speaking on Mt. Sinai known as the 10 Commandments, were in fact audibly heard by the Israelites although not spiritually heard with 'ears to hear.' These words are interrupted, so to speak, due to the Israelites request to hear no more lest they die. God’s direct response to this condition of being unable to hear his words is twofold. One is clear from the context of Exodus 19 & 20 is that God did not directly speak to the Israelites his words lest they die and Moses was then a mediator between the giving of God’s law and the Israelites. The second direct response to this condition is given by God in Deuteronomy 18:18-19. “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words, which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it - his life] of him.” Jesus Christ who is the incarnate fulfillment of the Prophet after His transfiguration, which affirms that He is the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18, continues the speaking of the words God was speaking on Mt Sinai. The 10 Words as they probably should be addressed need to be carefully looked at before quickly making too many assumptions regarding how they play into the Law as used by the New Testament saints and what a believers role in regards to the binding nature of the 10 Words. It is these 10 Words as given that properly set the scene for the fact that man can not spiritually hear God period. Christ is the mediator from amongst their brethren who continues the speaking of the words; those words are that which all judgment will rest upon. John 12:48 “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.” On the proposition that ‘the biblical saints saw the Mosaic Law as a solitary unit’ I agree with one exception. I think careful study of what the Holy Spirit recorded as happening at Mt Sinai regarding what has come to be known as the 10 Commandments is appropriate. These 10 Commandments should probably be referred to as a distinct 10 Words, which is I believe what Jewish tradition as to what they were called for good reason. I think there is a very clear contextual distinctive regarding the delivery method of the 10 Commandments that clearly breaks until Jesus’ incarnation and transfiguration in which God stated, “This is my beloved Son; listen to him.” It is this break between God in auditory form speaking the 10 Commandments to the whole nation of Israel and Jesus’ incarnation in which the law is given for the specific reason that the people could not hear God’s words without dying.

Working back from Deuteronomy 18:16-18 we understand that the Israelites directly asked to not here God’s words anymore as they would die. God states it Deuteronomy 18:17 that they are in fact correct. The words, which God was speaking on Mt. Sinai known as the 10 Commandments, were in fact audibly heard by the Israelites although not spiritually heard with ‘ears to hear.’ These words are interrupted, so to speak, due to the Israelites request to hear no more lest they die.

God’s direct response to this condition of being unable to hear his words is twofold. One is clear from the context of Exodus 19 & 20 is that God did not directly speak to the Israelites his words lest they die and Moses was then a mediator between the giving of God’s law and the Israelites. The second direct response to this condition is given by God in Deuteronomy 18:18-19. “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words, which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it - his life] of him.”

Jesus Christ who is the incarnate fulfillment of the Prophet after His transfiguration, which affirms that He is the Prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18, continues the speaking of the words God was speaking on Mt Sinai. The 10 Words as they probably should be addressed need to be carefully looked at before quickly making too many assumptions regarding how they play into the Law as used by the New Testament saints and what a believers role in regards to the binding nature of the 10 Words. It is these 10 Words as given that properly set the scene for the fact that man can not spiritually hear God period. Christ is the mediator from amongst their brethren who continues the speaking of the words; those words are that which all judgment will rest upon.

John 12:48 “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

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