Pulpit Magazine

Posted in Cultural Issues, Parenting | 144 Comments »

144 Responses to “Does the Bible Mandate Home School?”

1. on 13 Feb 2008 at 5:56 am   Earl

   Well done Nathan – Thank you for centering your conclusions on the text (with sound hermeneutics). I commend you for responding quickly to the comments on the original article.

   I would think this would put the issue to rest. But, I doubt it will. Some will continue their isogesis and insist that their way is the only way.

   I think we are all better served to focus on Christ and His grace and mercy, and mortification of our own sin and emulating Christ’s love – than we are to sit around and debate this school thing.

2. on 13 Feb 2008 at 6:33 am   Kim in ON

   I agree that the choice to homeschool is in the area of “wisdom.” We all have different family dynamics, and different situations. Yes, the choice is up to the parent. The most important thing, no matter where we educate our children, is for parental involvement spurred on and informed by solid, biblical discernment. Far too many people jump on the bandwagon, either for or against, because someone has suggested it to them. I find it very concerning when “big names” take a stand for or against, and people follow suit because they feel the person is more informed. It must be a personal decision between parents and fmily.

   What I don’t like is the lack of grace expressed on both sides. I have one child I am homeschooling and one child in public education. I have another in secular university. I have been criticized by non homeschoolers and homeschoolers alike for my positions. I have been homeschooling for eight years, and I have seen the benefits and drawbacks of both systems. I have more practical experience with both sides than many of the most passionate commenters out there. There are far too many uniformed views floating around in cyberspace, and many of them lack common courtesty or civility.

   I think what often drives people, even though they may not want to admit it, is that they are threatened by people who will not choose what they choose. We want our personal choices validated by people rather than God.

   We need to practice grace with others and stop trying to be the Holy Spirit in the lives of others.

3. on 13 Feb 2008 at 6:35 am   Josh Gelatt

   Excellent article. While I fully support homsechooling, I have always been dismayed at the revisionist history of the homeschooling proponents. They try to claim that historically schooling was done in the home (until the department of education was established, contra Machen). Yet, a cursory glance at history disproves this. In the Christian world (and as you have highlighted, the Jewish world of biblical times), schooling was conducted by the churches. In antebellum America the pastor was considered the chief educator.

   You are right, precedent would favor the Christian school over the homeschool. Yet, I still think homeschooling is a valid choice that works very well for some families.

4. on 13 Feb 2008 at 6:36 am   dac

   Thank you for your commitment to the sufficiency of the bible.

   It is a concept in which understanding is sorely lacking in many

5. on 13 Feb 2008 at 6:48 am   Van Edwards

   Thank you, Nathan. Another passage I often hear as proof-texting for home-school is the “render unto Ceasar” passage, Matthew 22:21. This has nothing to do with education, but involves relinquishing what is due the government – i.e., taxes. Perhaps you could handle this passage as well.

6. on 13 Feb 2008 at 6:56 am   Mark

   I homeschool, but not because of Deuteronomy 6. In fact, I don’t know any fellow homeschoolers who cite Deuteronomy 6 as reason for doing it.

   We do it because we don’t think the Israelites would send their children to the Assyrians for education and indoctrination.

   A good Christian school seems like a viable alternative, if you can afford it. And if someone is a single parent, then perhaps (and sadly) public school might be his or her only option. It would be superb if his or her local church stepped up and schooled the children in those situations though. Now that would be something indeed!

7. on 13 Feb 2008 at 7:00 am   Tim Challies

   Thank you for covering this topic. It is an important one and I think you covered it very well. This is one “gray” area in which we simply cannot allow ourselves to try to bind the consciences of other Christians.

8. on 13 Feb 2008 at 7:19 am   Carla Rolfe

   I heartily agree with what Kim in ON said. Homeschooling is A choice, not THE choice. The decision to homeschool (or not) has to be made according to each individual family/child’s circumstances.

   What I’ve noticed more and more the longer I participate in or read articles & comments on this subject, is that there is a type of Cage Stage Educational Opinion among both sides. By that I mean that younger families who land on either side of this issue are SO passionate about it, and SO convinced that their opinion is the most accurate one, that their zeal often overshadows all the variables that always factor into these decisions.

   One thing mentioned by Kim above that I must say “amen” to, is the idea of “big names” being more informed on this subject. That is not always the case, and folks should know this.

   This is not something that should be approached lightly, but something that must be thoroughly researched before making an informed decision (for those that are in the position of making that decision). The better option is to listen to the wisdom of older parents that have battlefield experience, as it were.
   They’re beyond Cage Stage, and they’ll have insight into this topic that will help make a wise choice.

   There are pros and cons of public schooling, private schooling, and homeschooling. Your individual situation, child’s strengths or weaknesses, financial situation, employment situation, family/church support (or lack of it) and so much more has to be weighed out to determine which option is best for YOU and your child/children.

   The combined educational options between our seven kids includes many years of public school, many years of homeschooling, and secular university. Having that experience as the mom/teacher, affords me even more insight (and understanding) than I even had when we began homeschooling.

   2 cents from a mom who’s been there, and IS there, and still has 12 years to go, by His grace!

9. on 13 Feb 2008 at 7:20 am   Mark

   Here’s a funny story. A friend of mine who is a homeschool dad told me what happened when a friend of his came over with their dog.

   Here’s the scene. My friend has three daughters, and a dog. The oldest daughter is a pre-teen, I think 12-years-old.

   Anyhow, his friend came over with his dog and his dog began to, well, began to “know” the family dog in a Biblical sense (if you know what I mean.)

   Anyhow, the pre-teen homeschooled daughter innocently said, “Look daddy, our dog is giving a piggy-back ride to that dog!”

   And the daddy responded, “And THAT’S why we homeschool!”

   I thought that was a funny story.

10. on 13 Feb 2008 at 7:40 am   Hayden

    Nathan,

    Good job! I was a bit dismayed by last week’s comments. I used to teach at Grace Community Church’s school (Before I finished seminary) and also had much interaction with home school families because I taught their children as well on Fridays. All this to say, I saw the benefit of both methods and have even seen some of the students I taught in Junior High go on to public High Schools and have a great witness for the Lord.

    Truly, I do believe its is a wisdom issue for each family to consider with each child. The parents should be able to determine how their children are growing spiritually and base whatever decision they have to make on that. It should NEVER be dictated to them by someone else. I would hope that most families would talk with their Pastors as well. To make this an issue of sin in not homeschooling k-12 is a stretch. That would mean that many of the Pastors at Grace Community Church would be in open sin because they all do not home school. Are people ready to make that assumption about others that they do not know?

11. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:04 am   David d

    Nathan, I personally appreciate hearing your feelings on this subject and would like to go to task on all five of your points. But right now, the more important issue is the 80%+ falling away of the next generation and a direct link to public education.

    What I see happening is a red herring argument on a secondary issue, “homeschooling or bust,” a smokescreen to the real problem facing the church today, one that I don’t think we are truly addressing here.

    We can arm wrestle about homeschooling being the “only way” at a later date, but let’s stay focused on rescuing the millions of children who are being indoctrinated in a Godless institution while the church, for the most part, is turning a blind eye. I would think that SB777 over there in CA would be causing a stir in the hearts of Christian parents who send their kids to public schools and cause them to rethink the unbiblical model.

    That, Nathan, is where the debate needs to take place and where we need to focus our energies. Show me where the Bible says to send our children away to a secular humanist institution for the majority of the their training. Show me where it pleases God that the children of Christian parents are falling away at a rate of over 80%. Show me in Scripture where the decimated faith/worldview of the majority of the next generation is good for future of the church.

    What do you and those that support public education make of these facts? I’d like to know. We need to put aside personal experiences and opinions. Let’s stay focused on the heart of the issue–the hearts of the children.

    Blessings,
    David

    “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin (stumble), it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. Mark 9:42

12. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:05 am   Derek

    First of all, I am a Youth Minister in Oklahoma. We have a home school group that meets in our family life center once a week and we support them in that. We also have many families that home school. We support them in their decision to do so.

    The biggest problem I see in homeschooling as the only alternative to teaching is that we often want to overlook the mandate given to us in Matthew 28 which tells us to go into all the world and share the Good News of Jesus with the whole world and to disciple them in that way. If all Christians are called to homeschool and we only spend time in those circles with other Christians, how will we ever do as commanded and win others?

    In order to win the non-believer we must spend time with them and artound them, and that does include schooling. Many an opportunity has been found for our family to reach out to students and families in my childrens’ classes becaus of their attendance in a public school.

13. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:11 am   E. Ray Moore, Jr., Th.M.

    NATHAN:
    Yours is an inadequate response to those who support home schooling as a means to fulfill both the Great Commission with their own children and cite such texts as Deut 6:1-9 in support. I am frankly a little surprised at your attempt to dismiss Deut 6:1-9 as applicable to the NT era and to the current family and K-12 public vs Christian education crisis. Assuming that text is not applicable today in the NT era (which I do not believe) check out the NT reference of Matt 22:36-39 where Jesus quotes Deut 6:4-5 and then refer again to Deut. 6:7 where Moses applies this to discipling children. This text repeated in Mark 12:28-34 is called the “the Greatest Commandment.” How could you miss this? Poor exposition, Nathan. Go read these texts again and perhaps you will have a conversion not unlike Luther when he saw justification by faith for the first time in Romans 1:16,17. Justification was always there, but he had not seen it before.
    I don’t think most home schoolers believe that home schooling is the only way to fulfill those Christian education commands, most of us do also believe that the K-12 campus Christian schools or home school co-ops can fulfill the same biblical requirements. So by charging us in your response above as saying home schooling is the only way…is to create a straw man. But we are happily passionate about our home schooled children.
    Let’s follow Jesus’ commands and fulfill both the Greatest Commandment and the Great Commission and give all our Christian children a K-12 Christian education in campus Christian schools, home school co-ops or family based home schooling. All 3 of these fulfull the Bible’s explicit commands for our children.
    To reframe the debate…if I may try, “Can a Christian family place their children in the current pagan and godless K-12 public school system and be obedient and faithful to the Scriptures that relate to family and education?” My answer is NO…as such behavior also violates texts as 2 Corinth 6:14-19; Col 2:8 and Matt 18:6, 19:14.
    Many in the home school and Christian school movements believe how we educate our children is an obedience issue and that their brethren who chose to put their children in godless and pagan public schools are not being faithful and obedient to God in that realm of their lives. This is a hard saying, but with 70-80% evangelical Christian children who have been public schooled dropping out of the Christian Faith, I dare to bring this up. Thanks for having this discussion. Very helpful. Blessings.
    (E. Ray Moore, Jr, Th.M. at http://www.Exodusmandate.org)

14. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:19 am   Kim

    I see one of the blinders in the debate. When a child’s education is merely defined as a place to teach math, reading, and writing, it seems that just about any school setting could meet the goal–public, private, or home. So much more is at stake here though. Education is the process by which values are taught, where social skills are picked up, where worldview is shaped, and where a child is given the opportunity to take his knowledge and fit it into a structure that is either God-centered or man-centered.

    Anyone who believes that public schools only teach the three Rs is being deceived. There is no such thing as a neutral education. How sad that so many parents think that Johnny and Jill are getting solid academic lessons and nothing else at ABC Elementary. This is yet another flaw in the argument that any education is viable, as long as the parent feels it is the right choice for his family.

    Until we come to grips with the current sad state of our youth and the obvious, documented facts that, when looked at honestly, points to the abdication of Christian parents’ role in training up their own by sending them to a pagan seminary, we will waffle around and play games with Bible interpretation. In the meantime, millions of kids are being lost to a system that was never intended for God’s people to begin with.

    Deuteronomy 6 is as relevant today as it was then.

15. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:20 am   scott

    Good exegesis of the Deut. passage. Like Mark, I am a long time homeschool parent who has never heard anyone use this passage as a mandate to homsechool. Although, I’m sure some have used it as such.

    I see this as a matter of personal preference and would never consider it sinful to select one form of education over another as long as the parents are fulfilling their God given responsibilities.

    However, I admit that I have a difficult time reaching the conclusion that sending children to public schools is the wisest choice.

16. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:21 am   David R. McCrory

    Deut 6 is in the OT, but it is IN the Bible and therefore has relevence even to NT believers. There are principles and applications to be learned from that text just as much from any text. We cannot simply dismiss it as irrelevant.

    The principles taught there are focused on the parents responsibility to disciple their own children. The emphasis on how this is to be accomplished is through life lessons of everyday living (when you rise up, when you walk by the way, etc.). The assumption is that children will be with their parents during this time, and come under their influence and be taught by their hand. IOW, a child’s parents are their primary teachers. Not a stranger in some other place other than home for 6-8 hrs a day.

    Ephesians 6:1 says that a father is to raise his children in the nurture and admonishion of the Lord. A father has the spiritual oversight of his children to care for. It is his duty & responsiblity to do all in his power to nurture and cultivate a godly spirit & attitude in his children. With the help of his wife, his single greatest task is to develop his children’s love and affection for God. They are his mission field, he is their minister.

    Therefore, it is at best naive, and worst foolish, to believe that by sending your children off unprotected from the wiles of the devil 5 days a week, 180 days a year, subject to all manner of ungodliness that is our public school system, that a father could keep a straight face and say he is nurturing and cultivating true godliness in his own children to the best of his ability. It simply cannot be. No wise Christian adult would allow that level of worldly influence into his own life, let alone impressionable children.

    At 5 days a week, 180 days a yr, that’s over 5000 HOURS A YEAR you are subjecting your child to all manner of potentially secular, ungodly and unholy influences, some of which you may never be made aware of! While you’re hoping and praying your own child, who you are solely responsible for to guard and protect, and will stand before God and give account, is out from under your watchful care, and for what? A better job? Wordly status and influence? Two incomes? Oh dear people, let not the temptations and pleasures of this world compel you to compromise the spiritual nourishment of you’re own flesh and blood, merely to obtain temporal & material gain!

    Godly children are a blessing from the Lord. And though our God does want our children equipped to sustain themselves in this pilgrim’s place; to provide food, clothing, and shelter to those who will one day come under their care, He wants their hearts so much more. He desires faithful parents, who love their children enough, not to send them away for most of their waking hours each day, but rather parents who will pour their lives into the gifts He has given them. Raising children is a stewardship issue. And what happened to the man who took his Master’s treasure and went and buried it in the ground rather than investing time and energy into it? Rather than devoting himself to it’s growth? His was taken away and given to another.

    Blessings,
    David R. McCrory

17. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:35 am   Amos

    To David D

    I’m just curious, but I was wondering if you are aware of any studies done on the “80%+” falling away rate where it constrasts Christians who were educated in public schools against those who were educated by home or Christian schools. I just wonder if there would be a difference.

    Also, I would be interested to see how much the parents taking an active role to disciple their children (with or without formal Christian education) effects this number.

    I am an assistant pastor who works at a church with a Christian school. In our church we have children from all 3 education options. To me it seems like the thing that makes the biggest impact in the life of a child is not where the parents send them for formal education, but rather how much time and effort is being spent on personally teaching their children Biblical truth in the home.

    Amos

    p.s. Great job on the articl Nathan!

18. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:45 am   James McDonald

    Nathan,

    Ray Moore brings out much of my own sentiment on this issue. I wonder if Grace Community has considered the documented exodus from the faith by graduates of public schools. Denominations across the nation have reported youth leaving the faith in droves by their 20th birthday. And the church seems to ignore it.

    Contrast to this the work of Dr. Brian Ray with the National Home Education Research Institute. In a recent survey, Dr. Ray found that over 90% of homeschoolers profess the faith of their parents.

    So, if, as the Southern Baptist Convention reports, 88% of children are leaving the faith, while over 90% of homeschoolers are embracing the faith, what conclusion do you come to?

    It’s pretty simple, homeschooling works. And, I, for one, pray parents will adopt Deut 6:5-9 as a model.

    James M McDonald
    Pastor
    Providence Church
    familyreformation.wordpress.com

19. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:48 am   Earl

    Someone please show me that the 70-80% of kids dropping out of the faith is caused by public schooling. Please show me that data. If you are seeking to use traditional logic to justify your position, please do so with real facts and data with references and refrain from using logical fallacies (in this case, “cum hoc ergo propter hoc”, or “with this, therefore because of this”). I have never seen any data that shows and difference between HS and PS results after age 18. And even if it exists, correlation does not prove causation.

    Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but public schools are no more pagan and godless than the world.

    We are on dangerous ground when we take an opinion (apparently formed by flawed traditional logic) and try to fit scripture together to try and justify it.

20. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:48 am   samuel

    I also know of no one who holds a home-school only and “no Christian schools” view. I do, however, think your post is out of focus with what is going on. The question should be about us all as believers pursuing what is best, not seeing all eventualities as equallt viable and open for discernemnt.

    Sending your children for indoctrination (that’s what education is) by pagans is a horrible option, and very irresposible for discernign Christians. Christian schools may be a good alternative, but fathers must see that they bring their children up as the Word dictates.

    The fact is that if we are to follow the Word in all it’s implications for fathering (as you laid out) our options in regards to education will very likelt not include Government Indoctrination, nor the “Christian” knock-offs that still breed peer-primary influence and consist of teachers who can’t get other jobs or are burned out wives of poor ministers. Is that fair? No. But it’s been the case at all the Christain Schools I am familiar with (over 10).

    And also…Homeschooling is great. But like other areas, it’s great when parents are surrendered to Christ, not otherwise.

21. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:06 am   Bill

    Nathan,

    Excellent commentary. I agree completely.

    Why don’t we (as some would suggest in this blog) just keep our children locked in their safe little rooms all day long and never let them come out because, God forbid, they actually interact with the lost. By all means lets not allow them to be ’salt and light’ in a dark world. The same God that protects me and keeps me in the truth throughout the day also is with my children as they go off to public school.

    Quite frankly, I am more concerned about the false teaching children receive at their local ‘Christian fellowship’ than I am at what they are taught in public school. I certainly don’t condone all that is taught in public school but with public school at least its obvious and is easily rebuked by sound Biblical teaching at home. Please don’t get me wrong, I’m sure there are well-grounded Biblical Christian schools/churchs out there and I praise God for them.

    But with the massive amount of deception and apostasy in the ‘church’ today I wish we were as zealous for attacking errors in the ‘church’ as we are attacking the public school system.

    Why don’t we start a ‘home-church’ movement?

    God bless.
    Bill

22. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:19 am   Christi

    “The command here, given to the second generation of Israelites (after the Exodus) on the verge of entering the Promised Land, is that parents must actively and consistently disciple their children in the truth—being faithful to teach them the things of the Lord as a regular part of life. It is a call to lifestyle discipleship, as parents bring up their children “in the discipline and instruction of the Lord” (Eph. 6:4).”

    “lifestyle discipleship” – Can I really effectively do this if my children spend the majority of their time away from me?

    “Obedience to this passage demands that a parent consistently teach his or her children the things of the Lord as a regular part of life. Whether that parent teaches his children algebra or English grammar is not the point.”

    As Kim pointed out a few posts earlier, education is not neutral. Can I “consistently” teach my children the things of the Lord as a regular part of his or her life if they are not with me consistently?

    “the primary application of this passage (that parents are to constantly and consistently disciple their children throughout the normal activities of life) is an application that is echoed in Ephesians 6:4. That application (as a command given directly to New Testament believers) is mandatory for parents today.”

    Is sitting in a class room, segregated by age really “normal activities of life”? I can not recall being in this position since I graduated.

    Once more how can I do this “constantly and consistently” if my children are not with me?

    Just a few questions to ponder in light of the above article.

    For futher pondering here is the definition of education out of Webster’s 1828 Dictionary

    EDUCA’TION, n. [L. educatio.] The bringing up, as of a child, instruction; formation of manners. Education comprehends all that series of instruction and discipline which is intended to enlighten the understanding, correct the temper, and form the manners and habits of youth, and fit them for usefulness in their future stations. To give children a good education in manners, arts and science, is important; to give them a religious education is indispensable; and an immense responsibility rests on parents and guardians who neglect these duties.

23. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:19 am   Grace

    If Deuteronomy is to be listed as “not binding on today’s Christians” then I would also recommend we discard the Psalms and Proverbs. What use would we have for learning what great deeds God has done in pre-New Testament times? I also note that the New Testament does not list the 10 Commandments so we no longer need to be bound to the laws of not stealing, bearing false witness, murder… If I recall, Jesus said he came to fulfill the (mosaic) law but not to abolish it.

    We are not bound to follow the Old Testament for salvation but how can a true believer simply decide they are not BOUND to certain parts of the Bible just because they are pre-dating CHRIST? They are not pre-dating God. I believe God said that every word, every jot and tittle (every dot over every i and ever cross of every t) is important and sacred.

    I urge you to consider that you are blaspheming the Holy Word of God to insinuate that a Christian is only BOUND to follow the New Testament.

24. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:21 am   Kristin

    Only time for a quick observation on the last entry… It states, “Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but public schools are no more pagan and godless than the world.”

    Isn’t that the point? The world is pagan and godless. Public schools are worldly. We are to be in it, not of it. I think those who choose to keep their kids out of a pagan and godless school are making the effort to avoid the “of it” and prepare their children to be effective and godly “in it.”

    God bless.

25. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:29 am   Mike

    Much of the way this stuff gets discussed is discouraging to me. Not because of tone or charitability, but because of what is being said.

    80% leaving the faith? First of all, even if it is true that 80% of children who go to public school don’t continue in the guise of religion, it’s not true that they were saved and public school screwed them up. We’d all do well to remember 1 John 2:19.

    Seriously folks, does public school make it harder for God to save someone? Does homeschool or Christian school make it easier for Him to save someone?

    I’m 100% willing to entertain the notion that sending one’s children to public school might not be the best idea, but certainly not because it’ll mean my kid will have a harder time getting saved there.

26. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:32 am   LD

    The question is not whether or not the Bible requires or requests homeschooling as much as it is that I would rather not have my children sitting for 40 hours a week in a secular environment with humanistic philosophy, God-bashing teachers, satanist and homosexual classmates surrounded by bad influences in general – being taught that anything is ok if you feel like it is and nothing is wrong to the point where if your parents take you to church more often than you’d like to go, you should turn them in to the Social Services. And I’m to be convinced that the average parent/child one on one conversation per day of 45 minutes and the two or three hours in church each week will somehow counteract those 40 hours?

    “Providence has ordained that I should be the greatest liberator of humanity. I am freeing man from the restraints of an intelligence that has taken charge, from the dirty and degrading self-mortification of a false vision called conscience and morality, and from the demands of a freedom and independence which only a very few can bear.” Adolf Hitler

    We are the joyous Hitler youth,
    We do not need any Christian virtue
    Our leader is our savior
    The Pope and Rabbi shall be gone
    We want to be pagans once again.”

    Song sung by Hitler’s Youth – children put in the public education system in order to turn out a generation of soldiers who could and would kill 6 million Christians and Jews.

    Seems that I heard that in a high school somewhere….not those exact words, but pretty close!

27. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:35 am   E. Ray Moore, Jr., Th.M.

    Earl:
    Easy to fulfill your request. Go to http://www.nehemiahinstitute.com and order research entitled “Teachers, Curriculum and Control” by Dan Smithwick. This is a study on Christian worldview comparisons between Christian children in public schools, campus Christian schools and home schools. The loss of the Christian mind of youth from evangelical homes who are public schooled is almost total. Sadly many youth from traditional Christian schools score far below Christian home schooled youth. Also, Barna Group has some studies and research too. Josh McDowell has addressed this issue, but I haven’t seen his research. Dr Brian Ray, Ph.d. with http://www.nheri.org has recently completed a study entitled “Homeschoolers Grown Up” on life style and behavior of 7,000 home schooled kids now adults in their 20’s or 30’s. Over 90% of these young adults are continuing in the Christian Faith and traditions of their families. Also, home schoolers in Dr. Ray’s study show more stability in other areas such as marriage, community involvement than their public schooled conterparts. Aha, examples of Proverbs 22:6.
    In 2002 the SBC Baptist Family Life Council reported loss of over 80% of their youth. You are correct that public schooling is not the only culprit, but it is the main culprit. To think that Christians can put their children in such a hostile and humanist environment for 30 hours per week or 14,000 seat hours in a K-12 public education career and for this practice not to wreak havoc on the Church and family doesn’t pass the common sense test, much less the theology test. This is an argument from experience and data, but is in accord with what Scripture teaches or would predict too.
    Why is evangelical Christianity so weak, anemic and powerless in society? Why are our Christian families breaking down? The answer may be a simple one, right under our noses too, but we refuse to see it because it would require painful soul-searching and repentance. (E. Ray Moore, Jr, Th.M.)

28. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:36 am   scott

    Mike,

    Bingo. The comments you refer to reveal an Arminian or Semi-Pelagian theology.

29. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:50 am   James McDonald

    Mike said,

    >>

    Is God not the Lord of the means as well as the ends? Do His promises, His conditional promises for our children, mean nothing?

    Indeed, He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. But He certainly uses the testimony and faithfulness of parents to His end.

    You seem so hung up on the documented 80% who are leaving the faith. What do you have to say of the documented 92% of homeschool graduates who profess the faith of their parents?

    This is a real issue people.

    Grace and peace,

    James M McDonald
    Pastor
    Providence Church
    familyreformation.wordpress.com

30. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:52 am   David d

    To Earl and all those who may be in the dark about the facts. Please take time to review only a handful of links:

    In no particular order the first link has had over 100,000 participants-

    http://www.dexios.info/culture_trends.pdf

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1558694/posts

    http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44770

    http://www.albertmohler.com/commentary_read.php?cdate=2005-04-11

    http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48001

    http://www.nehemiahinstitute.com/articles/index.php?action=show&id=30

    http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=55808

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=55928

    http://www.battlecry.com/pages/nytimesarticle1.php

    http://www.sbchea.org/custpage.cfm?frm=446&sec_id=446#news248

    http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=183

    http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=276

    There is a lot more where that came from. Again, what do you and those that support public education make of these facts? I’d like to know. We need to put aside personal experiences and opinions. Let’s stay focused on the heart of the issue–the hearts of the children.

    To God All the Glory!

    Peace,

    David

    1 Tim. 5: 24 The sins of some men are conspicuous, going before them to judgment, but the sins of others appear later.

31. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:58 am   Buddy Hanson

    God is not a man, that He should lie,
    Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
    Has He said, and will He not do?
    Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
    Numbers 23.19

32. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:58 am   Buddy Hanson

    God is not a man, that He should lie,
    Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
    Has He said, and will He not do?
    Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
    Numbers 23.19

33. on 13 Feb 2008 at 10:06 am   Zach P.

    Brother Nathan,
    Thank you for your faithful work in the text, and for laying it bare for all eyes to see. You have done us a great service in this article. We would do well to follow your example in this discussion.

    I truly appreciate the challenge that Earl has offered in his comments regarding this article and the one before, and would deeply appreciate it if someone would respond to it.

    Surely the fact that 80%+ of children raised in Christian homes in our day are “falling away” is due to other factors than simply their attendance of public school, since that 80% includes home-schooled children as well if I’m not mistaken.

    What these kinds of statistics show us more than anything, in my humble opinion, is that far too many Christian parents (public schooling, Christian schooling, & home-schooling ones alike) are not being vigilant to “constantly and consistently disciple their children throughout the normal activities of life.”

    Too many public schooling parents are not intentionally and skillfully training their children to examine what they are taught and respond to it biblically. Too many Christian schooling parents are wrongly assuming that their children’s discipleship is covered simply because the child’s teachers pray in class and refer to Scripture in their class lessons. And likewise, too many home-schooling parents error in assuming that their children are followers of Christ simply because they show some kind of outward conformity to their safe Christian environment, without calling them to look deeply at the depths and seriousness of their sinfulness and their desperate need for a Savior.

    To echo what has already been wisely said: “We are on dangerous ground when we take an opinion (apparently formed by flawed traditional logic) and try to fit scripture together to try and justify it.”

34. on 13 Feb 2008 at 10:10 am   Zach P.

    Thanks to David d and others. I did not realize that a response to Earl was already given. Most of what I said still stands, however.

35. on 13 Feb 2008 at 10:18 am   Buddy Hanson

    Anyone who imagines that there are any “grey” areas in God’s Word, need to spend some time reading it. It should prove to be very educational and enlightening. My Bible has black words, and some red words, but no grey words. My Bible also says that since God knows everything, there is no reason for Him to change His mind.

    God is not a man, that He should lie,
    Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
    Has He said, and will He not do?
    Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
    Numbers 23.19

    Those who bother reading God’s Word, instead of imagining what it says will find that Jesus came to abolish the ceremonial laws, not the civil laws. The civil laws present God’s will for how we should live and govern ourselves. Take those away and we only have ourselves to depend upon in creating laws by which to live. A dependence strictly upon the New Testament would leave us without any Word from God against murder, bestiality, rape, incest, withholding wages, pay for those in the ministry, or for keeping the Sabbath. (I will be happy to send references for these, but to save space, won’t list them here.)
    I travel across the country teaching what it is to have a biblical worldview. The Barna research group shows that only five percent of Christian adults has a developed Christian worldview (roughly the same percentage of Christian children who attend public schools). This is one percentage point LESS than the amount of German pastors who took a stand against Hitler in the 1930s.
    Any curriculum that does not have the law of God as its centerpiece is not true education. God’s Word presents the foundation of how we should live and govern ourselves. It is our final authority over our conduct and beliefs. Since God’s Word is true, this means that any educational system that is not based upon biblical principles is “false.” 1 So the contrast between Christian education and non-Christian education boils down to a contrast between a “true” and a “false” education. Or, put another way, a “true” and a “false” worldview. 2 For example, a true education must provide clear answers to the following questions:

    • Who am I?
    • Where did I come from?
    • What is my purpose in life?
    • Who is in control of the earth?
    • Where am I going?

    Christian teachers have as their primary responsibilities:

    • Forming their students’ minds to love and serve their Creator,
    • Not just to teach a trade, but to cultivate the student’s mind with biblical knowledge, and develop their reasoning for conversations with non-Christians, and last but not least to
    • Pray for them and with them

    Can it be imagined that public (government) school teachers approach their students with this mindset? We must not forget that Luke exclaims: “the child will be like his teacher!” 3 From this it should be abundantly clear that the public (government) schools are not an option. Neither we, nor our children are to be “unequally yoked together with non-Christians.” 4 Christian parents must either home school their children or make certain they attend a Christian day school.

    1 John 17.17; Psalm 119.151
    2 Romans 12.2
    3 Luke 6.40
    4 2 Corinthians 6.14

    As the prophet Isaish states:
    To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8.20

    This should about do it for any who prefer to delude themselves that there are any “grey” areas in Scripture, or that we have a God who is not quite as wise as we are, so we make dismiss His outdated wisdom and create our own sinful wisdom.

    For the Kingdom,

    Buddy Hanson
    Christian Policy Network & Christian Worldview Resources Center
    bhanson@graceandlaw.com

36. on 13 Feb 2008 at 10:58 am   Gabriel

    Just a few observations:

    - All the arguments against public schools seem to be assuming a universal standard for those schools. It is important for everyone to note that a public school in small-town Texas is probably a bit different than one in LA. Not all public schools are created equal in every way.

    - Arguments against public school also seem to indicate that once your child enters public school you’ve lost all ability to disciple them. There’s a difference between delegate and abdicate. I’d be willing to bet that the vast majority of the perverbial 80% of students who “walk away from the faith” 1) were never true believers to begin with, and 2) had parents who abdicated, not delegated.

    - Arguments against public school assume that no student is able to think biblically and will always buy into false worldviews. This is where wisdom of the parents come in. Parents know when their child is mature enough to withstand the onslaught.

    I went to public school 3rd-12th, plus a couple years at a community college. I was offered cigarettes, and been exposed to massive amounts of false truths and sinful lifestyles through those years. Yet the Lord preserved me and gave me the grace to withstand everything. I never for a moment bought into the false ideologies because I knew the Truth, and it was reinforced in every other aspect of life.

    The reality is that schools are getting worse in their indoctrination, but God is not getting any weaker. He is able to sustain true believers and enable them to be salt and light around them.

    As it turned out most of my friends were homeschooled. And as it turns out, very few of them are strong believers. Most of them get tossed to and fro by the winds of theological change.

37. on 13 Feb 2008 at 11:06 am   Denis

    I have chosen a private Christian school for my children.

    However, what I chose was not simply a school which opens the day in prayer and has a Bible class in addition to the other subjects (though those are good things which the school does). What I chose is a school which brings a Christian worldview to all subjects.

    I do sincerely believe that all aspects of education, not just science & sexual health, are impacted by the worldview held by those running the education system and that this worldview is reflected in the teaching of all subjects. And while I may not like it, the reality is my children are going to spend more hours during the week at school than they they are with me.

    So rather than seeing my role as a counter-influence to what they are learning (directly or indirectly) in their school, I chose a school which can be a parter in raising my kids in a way that honours and brings glory to God.

    This is a strong belief of the school too, that the school and the church are the parent’s primary partners in raising up a child.

    This is why I strongly encourage other parents to pursue a form of Christian education for their children.

38. on 13 Feb 2008 at 11:07 am   David d

    Following is the link that supports that homeschooling is and does work.

    >

    http://www.nheri.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=171&Itemid=47

    I just didn’t want some to think that there wasn’t evidence to support what homeschoolers have been saying all along.

    Soli Deo Gloria!

    Peace,

    David

    5 Thorns and snares are in the way of the crooked;
    whoever guards his soul will keep far from them.
    6 Train up a child in the way he should go;
    even when he is old he will not depart from it. Proverbs 22

39. on 13 Feb 2008 at 11:18 am   Denis

    I also have a comment regarding the salt & light argument for public education.

    I think children can be a salt & light in their communities without being a part of the public education system. My kids for example have friends they regularly play with on our street who do not go to their school and are not Christians. They have also taken part in various community based sports & classes.

    Not being in a public school does not exclude kids from being a very real part of their local community.

40. on 13 Feb 2008 at 11:26 am   David d

    Zach,

    Please take the time to read the links.

    When you wrote, ” …since that 80% includes home-schooled children as well if I’m not mistaken.”

    There are three points that come through loud and clear when you add up all of the on-going research.

    1. The Church is losing over 80% of the next generation. The majority of the today’s teens worldviews are in real sad shape. Studies show that a secular-humanist education is one of the top reasons-period.

    2. The Church has yet come to grips with it. I believe it will and slowly is by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    3. The majority of Christian parents don’t really seem to care. “One of the most startling observations, according to Barna, was how few born again parents indicated that one of the most important outcomes parents needed to help their children grasp was salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. ‘Only three out of ten born again parents included the salvation of their child in the list of critical parental emphases,’ ” – Barna Report 2005

    Let’s come together Church and turn this around for God’s Glory!!

    Peace,

    David

    3 John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth.

41. on 13 Feb 2008 at 11:26 am   gail m

    In not mentioning God, my public school teachers preached a thundering message daily. By implication they taught that God is not relevant to most areas of life..with every lesson, in every class period, all day every day for 12 years I was being taught to think like an atheist in the academic realm And didn’t even know that I was being indoctrinated.—Chris Schlect, Scriptural Worldview Thinking

42. on 13 Feb 2008 at 11:31 am   Kevin

    Nathan, great article! It has provoked a great deal of thought in my mind, as I see it has in many of your readers.
    For background, I am a Christian school graduate and curretnly homeschool my children for various reasons.
    I have seen many homeschooling families do a good job of isolating themselves from “harmful influences” of public schools and Christian schools. Christian schools started on the premise of removing our children from the ungodly influences of the public schools. Could we have missed something here? Have those sponsoring the Christians school movement help the demise of the public school by removing our “salt and light” influence from them? I am hearing now some homeschooling families do the same thing to “Christian” schools.
    I believe that Deuteronomy 6 teaches the responsibility of the parent to communicate their God to their children. One of your commenters was counting the hours that children are at school being taught by others. I wonder if we have tallied the hours they are home that are wasted on all kinds of things, instead of teaching our children about our God. As I said, I am a Christian school graduate and a homeschooling parent-and have loved both experiences. Nevertheless, we, as Christians, need stop squabbling about who is right and start making our influence count wherever God has planted us.
    Kevin

43. on 13 Feb 2008 at 11:41 am   Hayden

    To all those that advocate Home school only option,

    Do you send any of your children to Sunday School or allow a Youth Pastor opportunity to teach them? Seems to me, if you do, that you are violating Deuteronomy 6 because the Father in the home is not directly involved in said teaching.

    I am not equating what goes on in the church with what goes on in the public schools by the way.

    Also, all of these statistics are silly. C’mon, we know how statistics can be framed in many ways. (Think politics here) How come we are so sure of statistics that support our point but skeptical of others?

    I am a parent, and a Youth Pastor and have seen a ‘fall away’ rate that has concerned me BUT in my experience, and I admit my experience is limited to my area of the world, it has been not due to public school but the parents not being involved in the spiritual formation of their children. Homeschooling does allow for this but I have seen families that are not homeschooling well and have neglected this as well.

    All this to say, lets not make the issue of homeschooling a measure of one’s orthodoxy in doctrine. Allow for differences in opinion on this one, and take care of your children. All of us will have to stand before God and answer for how we raised our children!

44. on 13 Feb 2008 at 11:57 am   Hayden

    David D,

    Not one of the links that you provided gave the 80% falling away being solely because of public schooling. (At least that I saw) I have heard the statistic cited, I believe that it was Barna that did the study, and being concerned because I am a Youth Pastor but never heard it directly linked to public schools.

    I think much of this has to do with the church not teaching doctrine. We are too numbers focused! I am concerned with ‘Youth Ministry’ in general. Too much of it is fun and games and not enough biblical education, coupled with the decreased priority of the Word of God in family life. I believe this plays a major role in the ‘falling away’ rate as well.

45. on 13 Feb 2008 at 11:59 am   Zach P.

    Dear David,
    I greatly appreciate the links you have offered, and did read each one, though I am familiar with most of the findings presented in them. And I wholeheartedly agree with you that the research is weighty and deeply sobering.

    And…while I agree that secular humanist education is without question a top reason for the “sad shape” of today’s American “Christian” teenage culture; I would still insist that it being a top reason has more to do with the way that so many public schooling parents have neglected to meaningfully, skillfully and biblically interact with their children over the material they are being taught in their classrooms, than it does simply with the number of “Christian” children who attend public schools.

    All that to say, I believe it is far more urgent for us to call believing parents to “constantly and consistently disciple their children in the normal activities of life”, than it is to call them out of public schools. The former is a clear mandate from Scripture; the latter is simply a way to apply obedience to that mandate.

    I really do think we would likely agree on much more regarding these issues than we disagree on… Thank you for pursuing unity on this matter! Soli Deo Gloria!

46. on 13 Feb 2008 at 12:03 pm   Pastor Steve

    Hayden,
    Unfortunately, there are some in the homeschool movement that do not trust anyone else to teach their children. I came to pastor a church only a few years removed from this type of homeschooling group that didn’t trust others to teach their children & the results were devastating to them. So, some do take a passage like Deuteronomy 6 and apply it to all circumstances.

    The bigger problem that I have an issue with is the rationale that some people use for homeschooling. Looking at the numbers of kids that allegedly “fall away” from the faith as the sole reason for homeschooling is wrong. First, it belies one’s weak view of God’s sovereignty. Second, it puts salvation totally in the hands of man (i.e. we have to use manipulative techniques to keep our kids saved). Third, true salvation is not gained and then lost. Fourth, …… I had better stop!

    What I always wonder about those that home school only out of fear: What is your understanding of God?
    Daniel was ordained by God to fulfill a role that was vital for Israel. Yet, part of that plan was to be educated in a Babylonian school (where he would have been told about Babylonian gods). Did Daniel waver in his trust in YHWH? Obviously not!

    Bottom line, Seek God’s wisdom in what you are to do with your children. One size fits all for education is not mandated in the Scriptures. However, Parents roles in their children’s spiritual formation is most definitely commanded.

47. on 13 Feb 2008 at 12:19 pm   Jeanette

    Soli Deo Gloria.
    I have to agree with Mark (6:56am) that although I would not say that the scriptures mandate that we homeschool, which we do, the totality of the scriptures would conclude that we are to train up our children in the fear and admonition of the Lord 24/7. As far as the 3-R’s, homeschool or Christian education should be the only choice. God is not welcome in government schools,not to mention the indoctrination of Evolution/Homosexuality/moral relativism. To send our children to “Caesar” to be educated, should never be acceptable. (I will continue to pray those single parents out there and have offered child care/curriculum etc. to those in need) Those who MUST put their children in public school have a much tougher job ahead of them.

    If we send our children to the enemy to be educated, don’t be suprised when the come home wearing the enemies uniform!

48. on 13 Feb 2008 at 12:42 pm   Jesse Johnson

    Buddy and Grace,

    The NT does give prohibitions against murder, adultery, withholding wages, stealing, lying. If you want verses on any of these, let me know and I’ll get them for you.

    Nate’s point, which I think is being missed by many people, is not that Deut. 6 should not be in the Bible. He is not suggesting to do away with Psalms or Proverbs, because he is not suggesting on doing away with Deuteronomy. His point is that it is in the Bible to show what God commanded Israel to do. In the same way he commanded them to keep the feasts, to not shave the corners of their beard, to not wear clothes with mixed material, etc. In this particular passage, he not only commands parents to train up their children, but write the Law on their doorposts. Nate’s point is why do one, and think that skipping it is tantamount to not having the book in your Bible, but then skip other ones.

    Again, no one is saying Deuteronomy is not in the Bible. Nate is saying that the Law is not binding on Christians. He is granting a hypothetical point. Even if Deut 6 did mandate home schooling (which it does not), then it still does not follow that it is binding on Christians.

    Thanks,

    Jesse

49. on 13 Feb 2008 at 12:43 pm   Hayden

    Steve,

    Well said. Balanced and very pastoral. Keep teaching the Word my brother.

50. on 13 Feb 2008 at 12:46 pm   Bill

    Gabriel said:
    “The reality is that schools are getting worse in their indoctrination, but God is not getting any weaker. He is able to sustain true believers and enable them to be salt and light around them.”

    Amen, Gabriel. Spoken like a true ‘messenger’.

    Let’s not forget, brothers and sisters, the true Church, the Bride of Christ, the body of Christ, has never nor will ever LOSE ONE SINGLE MEMBER. Jesus Himself assures us of this in John 10:28-29
    “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”

    So, to say that the church is losing 80% (or any percent for that matter) of its members is completely false. It simply shows the depth of the apostasty in our day that is producing false believers. True believers will always endure under any and all circumstances – even in the fiery pits of the public school system!

    Our world (of which the PSS is a part of) will continue to get worse and worse but our God is still on the throne!

    God bless.
    Bill

51. on 13 Feb 2008 at 12:46 pm   Ginny

    Hayden: In response to your question about whether we send our children to Sunday School or Youth Ministries…the answer is no. It would be very difficult to oversee their spiritual training if we did not even know what they were being taught. We keep our children (baby to teenager) with us in church and it’s WONDERFUL! The church, in my opinion, has taken the world’s view of professionalism and the welfare system, instead of individual responsibility. If the Sunday School teacher is leading my child every Sunday in learning the Scriptures, does that negate the responsibility of my husband to teach them? No, but it sure deceives many a man into thinking his job is done. But, you argue, what if a man doesn’t train his children? Then hold his feet to the fire, brothers! If I’m not fulfilling my job as a wife to my husband, should they have a class for that as well, where another woman can fill in the gaps? How absurd! And isn’t it quite easy to look spiritual and pious in the pew, while the nursery worker is pulling out her hair because of your lack of training and your little guy is being a tyrant in Children’s Church? So, in conclusion, yes, we are being consistent in our child training beliefs.

52. on 13 Feb 2008 at 12:55 pm   Jesse Johnson

    Buddy and Grace,

    You had said that the NT does not prohibit murder, sexual sins, withholding wages, withholding pay form ministers, lying and stealing. Here are some verses to consider, as I hope to convince you that the NT does indeed prohibit them:

    Murder: Rom 13:9, Mat 5:21; Mat 15:19
    Lying: Mat 5:19, Col 3:9, John 8:44, Rev 21:8
    Stealing: Mark 10:19, Rom 13:9 1 Cor 6:10, Eph 4:28
    Withholding wages James 5:4
    Sexual sins: Heb 13:4, Rev. 21:8, 1 Tim. 1:10, Eph 5:5, 1 Cor 6:8
    Not paying ministers: 1 Tim 5:17, 18

    Thanks,

    Jesse

53. on 13 Feb 2008 at 12:55 pm   Pastor Steve from AZ

    Buddy Hanson seems to be a bit confused (sarcasm dripping)! No gray letters?! Are you kidding me?! He is one of the wacko sterotypes that has needlessly quieted evangelical Christian’s voice in America!

    I appreciate many of you who have taken the time to humbly consider this issue for the glory of Christ. I am yet to make a decision on this vital area of my children’s education…blessings to all who are willing to cut straight the Word of God.

    Thanks to Shepherds’ Fellowship and all who give leadership to this outstanding ministry of discernment and encouragement.

54. on 13 Feb 2008 at 12:56 pm   Bill

    Oh…and Steve, great post!
    I didn’t read your post before submitting mine but your’s is right on.

    Bill

55. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:11 pm   Daniel Chaney

    Hayden,

    You said, “Also, all of these statistics are silly. C’mon, we know how statistics can be framed in many ways. (Think politics here) How come we are so sure of statistics that support our point but skeptical of others?”

    You defeated your own point with your own question.

56. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:12 pm   Daniel Chaney

    Zach P.,

    You said, “I would still insist that it being a top reason has more to do with the way that so many public schooling parents have neglected to meaningfully, skillfully and biblically interact with their children over the material they are being taught in their classrooms,”

    Why would you send your child to receive training that would have to be dealt with? Why?

57. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:18 pm   Daniel Chaney

    Pastor Steve,

    You said, “First, it belies one’s weak view of God’s sovereignty. Second, it puts salvation totally in the hands of man (i.e. we have to use manipulative techniques to keep our kids saved). Third, true salvation is not gained and then lost. Fourth, …… I had better stop!

    Why stop? You have not reached a legitamate argument yet. First, this view does not show a weak view of God’s sovereignty. Your argument is like saying, “Well, I can go ahead and put myself into a position of temptation, because if I am saved, I won’t fall into it anyway.” You can see the problem with this argument. Second, salvation is never in the hands of man. We do not have to use manipulative techniques to keep our kids saved, but we must preserve their purity and protect them from the influence of the world at all costs. Third, I agree, salvation cannot be lost. If a child leaves the faith because of the influences at a public school, this shows that he was never saved. Fourth, Christians had all better stop subjecting their children to worldly influences.

58. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:19 pm   Christi

    I must say that “not trusting anyone else to teach their children” and being wise and discerning in who they allow to instruct and teach their children is not the same thing.

59. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:25 pm   Daniel Chaney

    Jesse Johnson,

    Are you saying that if a command is not restated in the New Testament, then it is not binding on Christians today? What about God’s command to be fruitful and multiply?

60. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:27 pm   Earl

    Haven’t looked at all the statistics sites, but one was rather questionable. http://www.nheri.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=171&Itemid=47 does a poor job of statistics sampling when they compare the general US population with homeschoolers. Think about it – the general US population has a high percentage of non-Christians while the homeschool population has a high percentage of Christians. I would certainly expect to see differences in these two groups. How about taking Homeschool evangelicals and public school evangelicals and see what the numbers look like?

    I’ll check others as time permits…but, so far, the numbers don’t prove anything -

61. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:35 pm   J Thomas

    Greetings, maybe your article should read “Home schooling instead of secular school”. In light of the disturbing facts concerning secular school and its obvious agenda how can we as Christians possibly make any other choice. If we examine all of the Biblical text carefully the answer should be obvious. More importantly, what is our motive for sending our children to secular school? Personally, I have listened to many but none that truly honor God. Such as, we don’t have the time, we can’t afford it, we would have to change our life style, we like having two incomes, our children don’t want to be chastised, I have a career I’m involved with, we don’t think public school is that bad, etc. These however are not reasons but excuses! Moreover, all these answers revolve primarily around the desires of the” self” and worldliness. Having children is part of the Biblical mandate to be fruitful and multiply (Gen 1:28, 9:1) raising our children is a commandment from God and how we raise them is of eternal significance (Gen 18:19: Deut 4:9-10,6; 2-6, 8-12,17:9,32-46; Joshua 1:8; Psalm 19:7,78:4-6;Isaiah 28:9; Ezek 44:23; Ephesians 4:29, 6:4; 1Peter 3:15). Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it (Prov 22:6). What will the rule of life for our children be, how will they keep the way of the Lord to do righteousness and justice, how will they grow in stature and favor with God, how will they hear and learn to fear God, and who will teach them knowledge? Will this be accomplished from a two hour visit at church ever Sunday? Let us not drift along in ignorance and complacency like the unsaved masses of heathen, who do not love God, who are against us, who are of the world. We are involved in spiritual warfare, nothing less and when we send our children into the world they must be prepared. So then how can they be prepared “if foolishness is bound up in the heart of child” (Proverbs 22:15). Secular schools teach the broad way that leads to destruction, not the way and truth of Jesus Christ and has become Satan’s initial platform for his Gospel and subsequent indoctrination into His deception whether realizing it or not. Do not be deceived “Evil company corrupts good habits” (1Cor 15:33). Do you think that an environment the fosters religious tolerance, safe sex practices for children, the evolution theory, responsible drug and alcohol use, the pursuit of worldly achievement, self-esteem instead of self denial, who deny the Triune God of the Universe in favor of eastern philosophy (which has become a primary practice in the public school system), more importantly educators who are not Christian teaching your children what they perceive as truth? Do you think this healthy for our children in any way? Christ clearly teaches us that “He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad”. As Christians, we are called to advance the Kingdom of God not that which opposes it and whoever does not assist in this duty is set against God and His Kingdom. Even a child is known by his deeds, whether what he does is pure and right (Prov 20:11). How will a child do what is pure and right if the majority of his or her erudition is spent in an environment whose primary mission is to teach that which is not only contrary and false but also antagonistic towards sound biblical doctrine. It is easier to be dragged down than it is to be raised up. Jesus said that whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea (Mark 9:42). Jesus is here speaking about responsibility so; acting against the interests of the child brings a severe punishment. In Matthew 18:6 Jesus speaks of one who makes one of these little ones . . . to sin. The verb with its idea of entrapment indicates that the person in question is leading the little one into something that that little one does not properly understand. In the parallel verse (NKJV) to sin, is translated to stumble. The OT meaning of “stumble” is not the same as that of the NT. In the OT, to stumble is to fail or to be ruined. But it may be that Jer 18:15, which pictures people stumbling in the path that God’s Word marks out, provides the OT model for the NT use, where “stumble” is associated with falling into sin (as in Ro 14:20; Jas 3:2). Jesus tells us to “take heed that no one deceives you” (Matt 24:4). God’s word tells us that the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God (1Cor 3:19), therefore forsake foolishness and live, and go in the way of understanding (Proverbs 9:6). If the public school system teaches foolishness and worse and we know that if we mingle with the gentiles we will learn their works (Psalm 106:35) how can we who profess to love God with all of out heart, soul, and mind be so careless to think otherwise? Why would we thoughtlessly place our children, who are without understanding, who are spiritually immature, whose Godly amour has not yet been tempered for attack and warfare be sent out into such a hostile territory? Secular school is the pond in which the denial and ignorance of God is cultivated, a breeding ground for whoever enters in to learn the ways of unrighteousness and unfaithfulness. God’s word commands us to be separate from this world and to not touch what is unclean (Ex 33:16; 2Cor 6:17)! How can we be separate from the world when we willingly and blindly embrace all that it teaches which as a matter of course begins in the school system? Home schooling allows us to raise our children in the truth of Gods word and to prepare them for the field, which is the world! The Bible does not make any specific instruction towards home schooling, however, public school as it exists now was not part of the historical culture in which the Bible originated and it was the duty of the parents to supply everything necessary for their children’s benefit, admonition, correction, and walk through life.

    Christian Apologist and Home School Advocate.

62. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:35 pm   Pastor Steve

    Daniel,
    I can value your concern to not place your children into a position of temptation but I have to respectfully disagree with your characterization of my argument. You are creating a strawman argument by making the argument about temptation and not salvation. I think that sometimes in one’s zeal for their conviction about an area of Christian liberty, they condemn anyone else’s different decision. If you really feel that this is an area of temptation for placing your children, then I can respect that choice. However, you don’t have the weight of Scripture to say that one can’t be a good Christian parent if they have their kids attend public school.

    Here is a question to contemplate. Would Jesus guidance and concerns for His disciples be the same as a Father for his children?

    If, for the sake of argument, the answer is yes, then why would Jesus allow His disciples to interact with these tax collectors that were dishonest and not a part of the synagogue?

    If you are going to train up your children in the Lord, then sharing the Gospel is a major part of one’s walk with the Lord. You cannot be totally isolated from a worldly influence if you are around unbelievers.

63. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:48 pm   Belinda

    My heart burns though for the church to stand up and give some clear and encouraging teaching to families on how to disciple their family in this day and age. It is hard in this culture of busy busy busy to find the time to spend instructing your children in the Lord, in establishing a Christian world view in their hearts. The church should have answers for parents, should be encouraging them to step outside of cultural norms to establish these things in their family (and I’m not talking that the church should encourage homeschooling – the church should encourage disciple-making even within families). What I see is a church who provides programmes for parents rather than encouraging a lifestyle of discipleship outside of “education” choices.

    Now there may well be churches out there doing this but from the literature I read, the churches that my friends attend this is rarely being addressed.

    Belinda

64. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:51 pm   L.S.

    I think that the phrase “leave the faith” has been used in ambiguous ways here and elsewhere when discussing this topic. Many saved children do leave the church and lead lives that are less than God honoring for a season. I think that our culture is now such that we cannot have our kids in public schools and raise them in the nurture and admonition of the world at the same time. I know that some will disagree and I don’t mean that no student can ever emerge from public schools and continue to live a wholesome chrisitan life. I think Deut. 6 must be considered relevant to us today. Should we not teach God’s law “dilligently to our children.” Should we not talk of His statutes “when we sit in our house, walk by the way, lie down, and rise up”? I believe these things are commands that apply to us and that they are very near impossible to satisfy while our children are being educated in humanism for most of the day. They will come home late in the afternoon or early evening, have somewhere between 1-3 (or more)hours of homework, need supper, and a shower. If we are very dilligent, we might be able to muster a few minutes of scripture teaching at home each evening to combat the 6-8 hours of the worlds system that they soaked in earlier in the day.

65. on 13 Feb 2008 at 2:00 pm   Nancy

    Kevin:

    Statement: Christian schools started on the premise of removing our children from the ungodly influences of the public schools.

    Comment: Not all Christian schools were started in “reaction” to the public school system. Many were started (and are celebrating 150 – 175 years of ministry) for the express purpose of helping young people learn in an atmosphere where God was honored, parents and their authority over their children was respected and the home, church and school all worked in cooperation for the education of the next generation of godly leaders.

66. on 13 Feb 2008 at 2:16 pm   Kristin

    Brothers and sisters, I’m discouraged. Here we are, plain and simple, defending a public school system that forbids the mere mention of our Lord. Why, as Daniel C. so poignantly asks, would we send our children to receive training that then has to be “dealt with” in the first place?

    Yes, parents are desperately needed to step up and fulfill their God-given role, wherever their kids do school. But if that involves perpetual de-programming from atheistic worldview saturation, doesn’t that suggest a problem?

    Yes, God is sovereign. No, he doesn’t need our help. I’m pretty sure that doesn’t mean we should just sit back and watch Him take our mistakes and work all things together for good. (And what if the “He doesn’t need our help” argument is applied to the “But our children need to be out there, being salt and light” argument, too?)

    Yes, those choosing to homeschool need to examine their motivation. But I have yet to meet a homeschooler who talks much about “fear”. I do hear a lot about “joy” (and nitty-gritty hard work).

    Those defending the public school choice need to honestly examine their motivation, too. Why is it that I support a system notorious for lackluster (if not just plan dismal) academic results, one that by and large despises (or at least make illegal) the mention of God, considers it natural “socialization” to take ever-younger children from their families and place them with a group of their peers for the best part of the day? Is it really because we want our kids to be salt and light? Really and truly?

    Might it have something to do with convenience? The fact that it’s paid for already? Lifestyle preference? Varsity sports? Because it’s the only thing I really know—it’s how I did school? Because my kids are already part of the system; I can’t imagine how they’d react if I pulled them out now?

    I’m not accusing—we get enough of that from the Accuser. I just earnestly believe we need to be honest with ourselves and take time for quiet self-examination. Perhaps we will experience conviction.

    K

67. on 13 Feb 2008 at 2:30 pm   E. Ray Moore, Jr., Th.M.

    Brethren:
    Many have discussed the theological or Biblical case for K-12 Christian education or home schooling vs. public schooling. It appears that the Scripture is clear and explicit. Also some have presented data or their experiences for the necessity of one of the K-12 Christian education models over public schooling.
    There is also a case that can be made from history too, especially US history. For the first 200 years of US history from the Puritans arrival, private Christian or community schools, home schooling, dame schools was almost universal in the USA. We birthed America on back of Christian education and home schooling. In the 1830-1840 period Horace Mann, an anti-Calvinist Unitarian, was able to implement the first state-controlled public schools in Boston, then through all of Mass, later this alien model grew through New England and Mid-Atlantic states. Horace Mann had visited Germany earlier and been impressed by the highly regimented “statist” Prussian model which he brought back to the USA. Many of the founders of state-run public schools of that same era wrote also how such a new educational system would help overcome the Christian mind and worldview of the American people. John Dewey and his disciples followed and completed the harm begun by Horace Mann and the Unitarian founders of public schooling. The churches gradually gave up their private church-run and Christian schools over the next decades until by end of 19th century the transition to state-sponsored or K-12 government schools was nearly complete in USA. Catholics, Dutch Reformed and some Lutheran groups maintained their parochial schools, but most evangelicals opted for public schools. In some communities the public school system was benign or Christ-friendly, but never fully Christian in both practice and precept…then starting in 1947 with the Everson Case we have had 10 US Supreme Court cases legally defining the public schools as “godless and pagan.” This is a short and simplistic version of rise of state-run public schools, but this history can not be refuted, just as the theological case is clear cut too. If the Bible, research and stories on blessings from K-12 Christian education can’t convince you, try out the historical argument on the Unitarian origins and founders of state-run public schools. If the founding of any system is bad, the fruit will be bad too. Bad seed, bad fruit. Thanks (E. Ray Moore, Jr, Th.M.)

68. on 13 Feb 2008 at 2:35 pm   Zach P.

    Dear Daniel,
    You asked, “Why would you send your child to receive training that would have to be dealt with? Why?”

    I didn’t say this. I made no statements about what I have chosen or will choose to do regarding the education of my children. I simply said that I believe the reason that secular humanistic education has taken such a hold in the church is more due to the fact that far too many “Christian” parents have neglected to interact with their publicly schooled children over the material they are taught in their classrooms, than it is to the fact that many “Christian” children sit in those classrooms.

    I don’t see how this can really be debated. If more parents over the course of the past 150 years had taken the call to “constantly and consistently disciple their children throughout the normal activities of life” seriously, I believe wholeheartedly that the statistics would look quite different, as would our country, and this very discussion.

69. on 13 Feb 2008 at 2:36 pm   John

    Recognizing that government schools preach the government’s social agenda, and recognizing that this is inconsistent at many points with Christ’s Kingdom, my wife and I chose over twenty years ago to enroll our children in our church’s then just-beginning Christian school. We believed, and continue to do so, that the Christian’s choice for his child’s education comes down to private Christian school, or homeshool.

    Take it from me, it’s costly to do this. We’ve been paying both property tax to support government schools and tuition for private Christian education since 1985. Our third and last child is now a high school junior with only one more year in our church’s school. That’s a lot of tuition that might have been spent on other things.

    How did we do this? We found many ways to fund this effort. We haven’t bought a brand-new car since 1972. We decorated our home on the installment plan, adding furniture and finishes over time, rather than having an instantly beautiful home, with corresponding debt, in many cases. I buy almost everything we need online, often used, but serviceable. I have a moonlight business, which supplements our income. It’s a walk of faith, this Christian life, and we’ve found God faithful.

    How have our children turned out, coming from this cloistered atmosphere? We encouraged our children to participate in athletics, where they faced teams from non-Christian schools. We had then apply for, and each of them was accepted by, Tennessee’s Governor’s Schools, where they were outnumbered overwhelmingly by non-Christian students. They have been involved in swimming, football, basketball, baseball, track, piano, saxophone, Scouts, plays, and I’ve been to more events than I could ever count.

    How have they turned out? Both daughters were National Merit Scholars, and received full academic scholarships to a state university. Both went on to graduate school. Both are happily married to Christian men. Daughter no. 1 is a Resident M.D. at a local hospital, as is her husband. Daughter no. 2, whose husband is in medical school, is an engineer with an MBA. All four are active in church and mission activities, including foreign missions. Our son is following in his sisters’ footsteps, active in lots of areas, including mission work in the summer.

    Doing things the Lord’s way is always the best way. The only Bible the early Christians had was the Old Testament, so I doubt that they tried to explain away any of its admonitions, such as Deuteronomy 6. Give your children a step up toward the future by taking them out of government school. They’re in the training period of their lives, not the evangelism period. They’re not ready to be salt and light. Prepare them for that role by making sure they’re getting the input that will sustain them through life.

70. on 13 Feb 2008 at 2:41 pm   Pastor Steve

    A few final thoughts from me on this discussion:

    As a Father, I have children in an elementary school in the midwest. We have not felt a need to consider other alternative methods for educating our children. (a word of caution for those who characterize everyone that has their children in school – you don’t know the school, or our kids)

    Do we agree with everything that is being taught? NO
    However, my wife and I understand clearly what is occuring in the school and we are very much in dialogue with their teachers. As the kids interact with the philosophy of the world (which will happen at some point in time unless your kids stay at home until they are 50), we talk about where it comes from & what the Bible has to say about the subject. My second grade daughter caught on that the celebration about Christmas wasn’t focused on Jesus. When she got back to School after break, she wrote down John 3:16 on a piece of paper (without us suggesting it) to give to her teacher and a little girl of hindu beliefs.

    One other thought, I see a lot of vitriol from those that are home school only in their beliefs. You really need to tone it down if you want a discussion of the subject.
    What I find rather interesting is that there are a few folks that have commented in this forum that know their Hebrew and Greek Bibles well (OT & NT) but are being graciously. I suspect they could put many to shame if they so chose.

    Again, bottom line …
    It is your Christian liberty for education as you are guided by the Holy Spirit through God’s Word!

71. on 13 Feb 2008 at 2:48 pm   Bill

    @kristin
    “I’m not accusing—we get enough of that from the Accuser. I just earnestly believe we need to be honest with ourselves and take time for quiet self-examination. Perhaps we will experience conviction.”

    Very well put.

    I think there are some in this thread that believe all public schools are the same. They think Gov. Arnold is running all 50 states instead of just California!

    I have several Christian friends that are school teachers in our county’s school system. Granted, there is surely an ugly trend in different PSS across the country regarding what is being taught and we, as Christians and parents, need to be watchful of these and be ready to stand and fight if necessary. But this is just as true regarding an equal number of ‘churches’ across our country as it is public schools. Discernment is a 24/7 responsibility for a Christian.

    Having said that, can we please dispense with the ‘better-Christian-than-thou’ spirit that I feel coming from those whose conscience has directed them to do differently than others?

    God bless.
    Bill

72. on 13 Feb 2008 at 2:53 pm   KC

    Did I miss something here!
    Where is God in all of these opinions?
    Is He not sovereign?
    Does He not do the selecting? No matter where you go to school, right!
    Is your child going to hell because he/she wasn’t home schooled?
    Is your child going to heaven because he/she was home schooled?
    If a person was intended to be a believer then they will be no matter what!!

73. on 13 Feb 2008 at 2:57 pm   Mike

    I would like to respond to this comment:

    “First of all, I am a Youth Minister in Oklahoma. We have a home school group that meets in our family life center once a week and we support them in that. We also have many families that home school. We support them in their decision to do so.

    The biggest problem I see in homeschooling as the only alternative to teaching is that we often want to overlook the mandate given to us in Matthew 28 which tells us to go into all the world and share the Good News of Jesus with the whole world and to disciple them in that way. If all Christians are called to homeschool and we only spend time in those circles with other Christians, how will we ever do as commanded and win others?

    In order to win the non-believer we must spend time with them and artound them, and that does include schooling. Many an opportunity has been found for our family to reach out to students and families in my childrens’ classes becaus of their attendance in a public school.”

    Pastor, i am a senior pastor also, and my question to you is, “why do you feel believe evangelism only takes place outside the family?” You speak as if the millions of “Christian” youth who are leaving the church at a rate that ought to make everyone’s head spin, or at least ask why they are all leaving, don’t need evangelizing.

    Tell me, what would you call people who don’t believe in God, don’t attend church, live an a-moral lifestyle, and believe that truth is relative? Why you would call them the world right? Well the sad statistics are that 80% of the youth that you are currently pastoring will become just that. Why? Mainly because somebody has hired you to do what dad and mom should be doing. The authority structure that God gave to children (fathers and mothers) is being usurped by “youth pastors”, and the resultant mass exodus of “Christian” youth from the church ought to cause us to at least ask, “what in the world is going on here?”

    The greatest mission field we have is the children in our home. We should go to them and evangelize daily, and build character into them, until we see they are truly committed Christians. Otherwise we will continue to watch the exodus happen, this time all by itself, with no Moses needed. The kids simply leave.

    Dad and Mom,if you want your child to be one of the 80% that leave then just keep sending them to the godless, atheistic, pagan educators, using the excuse, “I want little Johnny to be a light to the world”, just keep sending them to youth groups where “play” and “fun” are the keywords, and since you have turned over your responsibility to everyone else, don’t at all be surprised when your “little Johnny” completely leaves the faith that he was never in.

    It’s time something changes. The fruit of “Christian” youth has been horrible for years. Let’s try to educate parents that the training of the their children is their responsibility and encourage them to stop passing their responsibility off to schools and youth pastors.

74. on 13 Feb 2008 at 3:05 pm   Ray B.

    Again , just an observation about how this issue is so big and so many posts and so very little concerning the series on doctrine. If we were truly people of the Book our children would be raised in the Lord if you homeschool or you do not.

75. on 13 Feb 2008 at 3:05 pm   Scott T.

    I have some questions:

    1. Could someone please define a “child” for the sake of this discussion?

    2. At what age *is* it “biblical” to send children out into the world?

    3. When does the child’s learning cease to be primarily the parent’s responsibility?

    4. Did God really have in mind 21st century American schools when He moved on Moses to pen Deut. 6?

76. on 13 Feb 2008 at 3:24 pm   Christi

    Pastor Steve posed the following question to Daniel in an above post:

    “Here is a question to contemplate. Would Jesus guidance and concerns for His disciples be the same as a Father for his children?

    If, for the sake of argument, the answer is yes, then why would Jesus allow His disciples to interact with these tax collectors that were dishonest and not a part of the synagogue?

    If you are going to train up your children in the Lord, then sharing the Gospel is a major part of one’s walk with the Lord. You cannot be totally isolated from a worldly influence if you are around unbelievers.”

    If we are to look at Jesus’ guidance we will notice that He did not send off His disciples to the Jewish synagogues or Roman schools to be trained and discipled, but rather He trained and discipled them as He interacted with them through daily life. He walked and talked with them. They interacted with the tax collectors just as Jesus did because they were with Jesus and under His training.

    I agree that sharing the gospel is a major part of one’s walk with the Lord and if I am doing that in my life and I am interacting with my children and including them in my life, then they will be learning first hand from me the mandate of sharing the gospel, because they will be with me and involved with me as I do it. Just as Jesus’ disciples were with Him.

    This is not isolating my children, but discipling them as Jesus did His disciples.

77. on 13 Feb 2008 at 3:26 pm   Brian Culver

    I home schooled my son for about three years. I adopted him and prior to adopting him he was in the fourth grade. His mom had not sent him to any school at all. He was just laying around his house doing nothing. I suggested to her that I home school him so he would not fall behind the other kids. He was flunking 3rd grade when I met him. I bought the books (Alpha and Omega) and found out he was actually quite a bright kid. By the time the year was out, he was doing 6th grade level work. All the while, we would go out on mission trips such as feeding the homeless, going to the mission home, working with habitat for humanity. We were able to spend some quality time together. He is now 24 years old and loves God with all his heart! He is a blessing to me. I ended up putting him back into the school system so that he could interact with other kids his age. He was a social butterfly. He relates well with people regardless of their age, sex or race. I would support anyone who wants to homeschool and I also support anyone who wants to go to private or public school. So long as the parents are involved in the life of the child!

78. on 13 Feb 2008 at 5:21 pm   Mike

    KC,

    I was right there with ya about 50 comments ago. And, btw, there are two Mike’s here. The one who commented after KC is a different one.

79. on 13 Feb 2008 at 6:41 pm   Yipeng

    Scott,

    Please allow me to suggest the following:

    When does a son or daughter cease to be a child of a parent? Until the point of death, they have a parent-child relationship ordained by God.

    It does appear to be the responsibility of the parent to “bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord” and the responsibility of the child to “honor your father and mother” all the days of their life on earth.

    Advocates of “Home Schooling Only” for young children as a biblical mandate will also have to consider:

    a) Is it biblical to allow a child to leave your household to pursue his future studies overseas?
    b) Is it biblical to allow a grown up child to move out before marriage or even at all?
    c) Does the distance between parent and child or time spent between parent and child matter? How much is sufficient? Why that amount?

    If we have the intention to allow children to move out and start their own families, or the pursue education after we are no longer able to educate them ourselves, we must do so while finding a way to fulfill our earthly responsibility as parents. We must likewise consider home schooling to be a means of following a biblical guideline rather than absolute mandate.

    Deu 6 was written for the Israelites and not today’s believers. Heb 11-14 clearly states that we are not bound by the Mosaic Law. However, the Old Testament IS God’s truth and there are eternal principles behind the law that we can consider in making our decisions today.

    I have found Chris Wrights work on Old Testament ethics to be most insightful:
    http://www.jubilee-centre.org/online_documents/OldTestamentEthics.htm

    Cheers

80. on 13 Feb 2008 at 7:02 pm   David d

    This is good stuff! Christians talking and there is some intense fellowship going on. There are appears to be some who still did not get the jist of the links that were posted like:

    1. Earl- “does a poor job of statistics sampling when they compare the general US population with homeschoolers. Think about it – the general US population has a high percentage of non-Christians while the homeschool population has a high percentage of Christians.”

    -My reply- read the research for your self, buy the book, check it out at your local library, find out the facts. Dr. Brian Ray answers the skeptics questions.
    http://www.nheri.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=172&Itemid=48

    Keep in mind Earl, the general pop. are Public School kids (55 million plus). If you want another site that reports the fantastic results of the children whose parents have chosen to homeschool:
    http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2001033

    2. Hayden- “Not one of the links that you provided gave the 80% falling away being solely because of public schooling.”

    - My reply- Let me help you out here Hayden. The first link (pdf) is the most telling. The research done by Dan Smithwick and the Nehemiah Institute is very thorough, and his interviewees that represent the Public School kids were/are teens who were actively involved in church youth groups. These are PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATED CHURCH-GOING kids. Yikes! Kind of puts to rest the “church/youth groups need to do a better job” argument. Below are some other quotes that may have been missed from the articles:

    “Sending thousands of [Christian] children as “missionaries” to their unbelieving teachers and classmates has failed to contribute to increasing holiness in the public schools. On the contrary, the Nehemiah Institute documents growing evidence that the public schools are successfully converting covenant children to secular humanism” – PCA Resolution

    “Many parents want to say, “But we are giving our children Bible training at home.” Really? Are you going back to all subject matter your children are taking and giving them a scripture-based education to correct wrong teaching? If so, you are in essence homeschooling them, so why continue to have them enrolled in the public school? If you mean that you are giving your children moral training, and letting the public school give them ‘academic’ training, you are simply denying them a Christian worldview. Your children are being given an anti-Christian worldview in all subjects at the local public school. “- Dan Smithwick (Nehemiah Institute)

    “Anyone who thinks that a few hours of youth group and church will have more influence on a child’s faith and worldview than 40 to 50 hours a week of public school classes, activities and homework is simply not being honest with himself.”- Rev. Wiley Drake (VP SBC Exe. Cmttee)

    “I’m looking at the data and we’ve become post-Christian
    America, like post-Christian Europe. We’ve been working as hard as we know how to work — everyone in youth ministry is working hard — but we’re losing.” Ron Luce (National Youth Pastor for 20+ yrs)

    “We are people who drank heavily from the trough of state education and realized that it’s poisonous and now we’ve found cisterns of living water, so to speak — and we’d love other people to join us. I’d love to see every family in the Presbyterian Church in America take their children out of the public schools and train them in the fear and admonition of the Lord.” – Rev. Steven Warhurst

    “One of the most startling observations, according to Barna, was how few born again parents indicated that one of the most important outcomes parents needed to help their children grasp was salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. “‘Only three out of ten born again parents included the salvation of their child in the list of critical parental emphases,’ he noted. ‘Parents cannot force or ensure that their kids become followers of Christ. But for that emphasis to not be on the radar screen of most Christian parents is a significant reason why most Americans never embrace Jesus Christ as their savior.’ “- George Barna (The Barna Report 2005)

    I am not sure how one can miss it today. The numerous studies have directly linked a child’s public/pagan education to a high percentage of them falling away from the Church. The Public Schools are devouring the majority of our children’s hearts and minds and these parents respond by not addressing the facts but by attacking the messengers. Hey, I don’t write the mail, I am just delivering it.

    I am guessing that everyone on this website loves the Lord and is of sound mind. The facts are the facts. We now regrettably know where the Public School path leads just like in “Pilgrim’s Progress” when Christian took a “short cut” on by-path meadow which lead to the Giant of Despair. He should have stayed on the path that God told him to follow, instead Christian took what appeared to be an easier way and unfortunately experienced (and his buddy Hopeful for that matter) a lot of unnecessary pain in their lives.May we as Christ’s redeemed get back on the right path where He wanted/commanded us to be all along.

    Soli Deo Gloria!

    Peace,

    David

    “(The) problem is not with your intellect as you’ve claimed, but with your will.”- Dr. John Safarti

    They have healed the wound of my people lightly, saying, ‘Peace, peace,’ when there is no peace. (Jeremiah 6:14)

    PS-

    Other quotes from some heavy hitters who understand what the Church’s response needs to be towards PS:

    “I believe that now is the time for responsible Southern Baptists to develop an exit strategy from the public schools. This strategy would affirm the basic and ultimate responsibility of Christian parents to take charge of the education of their own children. The strategy would also affirm the responsibility of churches to equip parents, support families, and offer alternatives.” Dr. Albert Mohler (2005)

    “…[G]iven the fact that in every classroom in the state for 13 public school years they’re being taught homosexual propaganda and these other politically correct, postmodern views, I think it’s time to get our kids out. And I’m going to get hit for that, and, you know, that’s the way it is.”- Dr. James Dobson (2002)

    “Christians will not win the culture war until they remove their children from Government Schools.” -Dr. Voddie Baucham (2006)

81. on 13 Feb 2008 at 7:26 pm   Gary

    In brief response to David D.

    1. Read Daniel again

    2. Public school education is not the main reason we’re losing 80% of our kids. The primary reasons are 1. Inconsistency of parents in the “Christian” home. 2. The utter failure of a vast majority of the entertain the children or they won’t come back or relationship at the expense of truth mentality of most youth groups.

    Teach the students the word for more than fifteen minutes, spend less time making the church look like the world to get kids in, and exhort parents from the Scripture that they must live “authentic” (notice that I didn’t say perfect) lives demonstrating the Gospel before their children daily and I believe that we will see that 80% bottom out.

    Is what is being taught in the public school system deadly? You better believe it is however, if you will combat truth with error and put into practice what I stated in the paragraph above, those true believers in the public school system will be able to STAND. 1 Cor 16:13; Eph 6:10-18

82. on 13 Feb 2008 at 7:51 pm   Jesse Johnson

    Daniel,

    I’m not saying that unless something is reiterated in the NT than it is not binding on Christians. I was responding to someone else who said the NT does not prohibit adultery, stealing, lying, rape, etc., which obviously it does.

    I would say that the Law is not binding on Christians, as evidenced by the fact that we don’t keep the Sabbath, we eat what we want, we wear what we want, and we don’t do sacrifices. Nate’s point is that even if Deut 6 were about home schooling—which it isn’t, but even if it was—because it is part of the Law that means that Christians are not necessarily under it. I think that Pulpit might do an extended post on the topic of the Christian’s relationship to the Law in the future, because that is a really good question.

    Thanks,

    Jesse

83. on 13 Feb 2008 at 7:53 pm   Jesse Johnson

    I think a lot of people have misread the point of this article. Nate is not saying that public schools are good, and home schooling is bad. Nobody here is saying that we like godlessness in kids. And this article does not even deny that home schooling is an effective way to raise children. All this post does is look at Deut 6 and see if it relates to home schooling. So, all of the statistics and links are beside the point. The point here is Deut 6.

    Thanks,

    Jesse

84. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:25 pm   Arthur Sido

    The question presented in the title is really the problem. The Bible certainly does not mandate specifically that parents home school their children, not even using Deut 6. But which is the more God honoring mode of education, sending kids to a public school where God is not honored or even mentioned, and faith is placed at odds with education? Or in a setting where God is exalted and every subject is examined in light of Scripture? Educating our children is our responsibility as Christian parents, and by sending kids off to a secular institution where they are often taught that what they hear on Sunday’s is a fairy tale is hardly a God honoring choice.

85. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:22 pm   Steph

    I am not a ‘homeschooling is the only way’ person, but I cannot support public schools as a *good* choice for a child being raised by Christian parents (I phrase it this way because not every child in a Christian household chooses to accept Christ before entering school at age 5- some are older before they make this decision). First of all, I have had many Christians tell me that I need to send my children to PS because God calls them to be salt and light. I do not agree with this. I have never read where God called a 5 yr old, or a 7 yr old or a 10 yr old. From my understanding, when Jesus sent out the disciples, he sent them out in pairs, and of course, they were fully grown. So, why send a young child out to hear a humanistic view everyday?

    I graduated in the late ’90’s (and from my understanding, schools have only gotten worse since then) and I saw some terrible things every day. I remember when I was 9, and we had ’s*x-ed’, we had to sit in a room (boys and girls together) and put c*nd*ms on bananas. We also learned that m*sterbation was a ‘normal’ way to relax. Are these things that you would be comfortable with your 9 year old child experiencing? And now, many schools teach that h*mos*xuality is normal, to young elementary aged kids.

    How do you feel about evolution? When I was in high school and (politely) told my teacher (during a lunch break- so no other students were around) that I didn’t fully agree with evolution, she said that was okay to disagree with her on. Then, later that afternoon during biology class, she stood me up in front of the class and HUMILIATED me for not agreeing with her. She was relentless and horrible, and, being only 15, I was in no position to fight back. All I could do at that age was cry for being torn up and down like that- ambushed, really.

    Other kids picked on me for being a Christian. Boys would pass by me and grab at my backside or chest, just because they felt they could. There was always talk about what guys wanted. I wasn’t allowed to have my Bible out in most classes, because it offended the teacher (except for 1 great teacher I had- he was also a Christian and was my favorite).

    Is that the kind of place you want your child? Even if their faith remains fully intact, they cannot come out of situations like that unharmed. Why choose that for them? School is not the same place now that it was *way back when*. It only gets worse each passing year.

    Homeschooling may not be the only option, but public schooling cannot seriously be considered the best option in the majority of all cases.

86. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:56 pm   Rob L

    Matthew 22:14
    For many are called, but few are chosen.”

    Luke 13:23-24
    23And someone said to him, “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” And he said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

    Matthew 7:14
    For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

    Matthew 7:13
    “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

    Are we really astonished at the 80 percent loss of young people out of the church. How do you define “few”?

    If my choices ultimately determined my child’s path, I don’t think I would be willing to bring a child into this world.

87. on 14 Feb 2008 at 4:34 am   Joyce burrows

    We began home educating our oldest son due to health concerns and in the middle of the fourth grade. We never returned noting the radical health improvement in one month; we see a significant difference between that son and the younger brother never privy to the public school experience. Why? Because they are uniquely designed by God and have experiences similar yet also very different and have parents that God hasn’t fully perfected in practice in time. They are not greenhoused in isolation from the world in the communities where we have lived or found intermingled in the local fellowship of faith…or concerning an elderly grandparent living in our home.

    So what to do concerning advice to others or from others? As the workmanship of God, we each should let God be God and true and should not have the desire of the heart to negatively stand in His way as He works in and through any of His people; we should rather seek to edify in the faith. We all aren’t cloned with the same pre-Christ or sanctification experiences yet all have His Word profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto good works(and yes, though speaking concerning a “man of God” the Word likewise is profitable with those points for every believer). What should be relevant for believers whether it be concerning marriage or the home or the workplace or church or education or mentoring, etc.?

    Get wisdom, get understanding: forget [it] not; neither decline from the words of my mouth. Forsake her not, and she shall preserve thee: love her, and she shall keep thee. Wisdom [is] the principal thing; [therefore] get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Proverbs 4:5-7

    http://www.letgodbetrue.com/proverbs/04_07.htm

    Bless God as the Lord wills and orchestrates ~ all we think and do is to be to the glory of Him alone.

88. on 14 Feb 2008 at 4:38 am   Joyce Burrows

    Hmmmm, kindly edit typo and spellcheck potholes for me.

89. on 14 Feb 2008 at 5:19 am   Daniel Chaney

    Pastor Steve,

    You said, “You cannot be totally isolated from a worldly influence if you are around unbelievers.”

    The point is not to be totally isolated, the point is to be totally uninfluenced.

    My argument was not a straw man, as I did not say that that is what you were saying. However, it is just like saying that I could go ahead and put myself into temptation because God is sovereign anway. By home-schooling, parents are not trying to keep their children saved, they are trying to “keep them unspotted from the world.”

90. on 14 Feb 2008 at 5:31 am   Daniel Chaney

    Zach P.

    You said, “If more parents over the course of the past 150 years had taken the call to “constantly and consistently disciple their children throughout the normal activities of life” seriously, I believe wholeheartedly that the statistics would look quite different, as would our country, and this very discussion.”

    I am sure that the statistics would look different, but the fact that children would receive contrary teaching to that which you are giving them would look the same.

    Many people have said here that we should not assume that all public schools have the same worldly influence and humanistic mindset, but I would say that they do. Perhaps a public school might even have a Christian teacher, but that teacher is required by law to teach only the government approved curriculum. That is the problem. Especially at that young age, children need to be taught a Christian worldview. It is counteractive to send them to receive instruction that will tear down what you are trying to build up.

91. on 14 Feb 2008 at 7:11 am   David d

    Gary,

    I’ll make this quick, heading out the door. I don’t get you first point about Daniel. He was taken into captivity? Please elaborate.

    Thanks,

    David

    17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, (Deut. 30)

92. on 14 Feb 2008 at 8:09 am   E. Ray Moore, Jr., Th.M.

    Brethren:
    Read this powerful statement from 1887 by Archibald A. Hodge, one of America’s eminent theologians and professor of theology at Princeton Theological Seminary, near the conclusion of the rise of state-sponsored public schools in the USA:
    “I am sure as I am of Christ’s reign that a comprehensive and centralized system of national education, separated from religion, as is now commonly proposed, will prove the most appalling engine for the propagation of anti-Christian and atheistic unbelief, and anti-social nihilistic ethics, individual, social and political, which this sin-rent world has ever seen.”
    Hodge was prescient about the harm of public schools to family, church and society in 1887. Theology professor R. L. Dabney also warned the churches in the same general time period not to accept state-run public education, but he too was ignored by most Christians. Our Christian forefathers were warned then, but most did not listen, but followed the leadership of the Unitarians and humanists instead.
    Now when our generation of evangelicals, pastors and Christian leaders have an opportunity to correct this error of the past and to rescue this generation of youth, we see some pastors and leaders justifying public schooling of Christian children by twisting Scripture…saying such and such a Bible text does not apply to the family and education of children.
    Add 2 Peter 3:16 to your list of non-applicable texts: where Peter warned against “the untaught and unstable twisting (the Word) to their own destruction” (in our discussion it is the destruction of our children). Many of the layman seem to get the plot, but some evangelical clergy are making excuses. This effort needs more pastoral leadership if our children are to be given a K-12 Christian education and led into the safe sanctuary of family-based home schooling, home school co-ops and campus Christian schools. Please, O Lord, awaken our sleeping pastors and Christian leaders. (E.Ray Moore, Jr, Th.M. at http://www.Exodusmandate.org)

93. on 14 Feb 2008 at 9:09 am   Jeremy W

    Wow. It is sad (and very apparent to me) how divisive this issue to the Church. Why is the issue of educational choice splitting churches? I hate how many churches today are at a splitting point not over the Gospel but over whether their kid is home-schooled or publicly educated.

    Nathan thank you for the great article. You have been used to help us further and better apply the original intent of Scripture to our lives. I agree, I don’t think Moses was telling Israel to “homeschool” but instead to be Biblical educators in their homes regarding the faith.

    On the other point – there is a lot of talk about us “losing” our kids, and this next generation. Here’s a wake up call… from day one your child (and mine) are spiritually dead. Yes, it’s true, they are already lost and unless God does a work of sovereign grace upon their lives they will remain that way, even if they are home-schooled! Yes there is an obligation to train up our child in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Yes we labor day and night to teach the Bible and the sufficiency of Christ to our children, but they are already a lost generation, and so we must pray and teach them the gospel daily. God has to work.

    I am frustrated that so much of our parenting (and I see this expressed in homeschooling the most) is built around us saving our kids. We can’t do that! Should we be wise about education, yes. But is that the whole game, no. They must see, and hear the Gospel regularly from us. Whether they learn math at home from Bob Jones on a video screen or from Mr. Smith down at the public school won’t save their souls. Only Christ can, only the Gospel can.

    Let’s abandon this foolish talk about us “losing our kids” and start talking about how we are communicating the gospel and the supremacy of Christ to our kids.

94. on 14 Feb 2008 at 9:29 am   Timothy Carr

    I am not comfortable accepting the author’s assertion that the Deuteronomy 6 passage, because it is part of the O.T., is not “immediately binding” on Christians today. It’s significant that the author offers no scripture to support this assertion, he merely asserts it. If the first brick is laid out of plumb, that doesn’t bode well for the wall it supports.

    We should remember that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” Paul does not state “All scripture except that preceding Matthew chapter 1,” instead we know that it was primarily the O.T. scriptures that he had in mind. Furthermore, Paul clearly stated in the strongest of terms that Christian faith does not make void the Law, rather it establishes it. And our Lord’s confirmation that not a jot or tittle of the law will pass away, along with his strict warning against teaching others to break the least of those commandments, demonstrates that we should evaluate such claims as the author makes with extreme caution.

    Thomas Watson was one who viewed the Law of God as having no such irrelevance (as did virtually all of the other Reformers, Puritans and authors of our great confessions). In his exposition of the Ten Commandments he states the following regarding the parent’s duties to their children:

    “It is a mercy to be brought out of the land of Egypt, a defiled place, and where sin reigns. It reproaches such parents as show little love for the souls of their children, whether it be in putting them out to service, or matching them. In putting them out to service, their care is chiefly for their bodies, that they may be provided for, and they care not what becomes of their souls. Their souls are in Egypt—in houses where there is drinking, swearing, Sabbath-breaking, and where God’s name is every day dishonored. In matching their children, they look only at money. “Be not unequally yoked.” 2 Cor 6:14. If their children are equally yoked for estate, they care not whether they be unequally yoked for religion. Let such parents think how precious the soul of their child is; that it is immortal, and capable of communion with God and angels. Will you let a soul be lost—by placing it in a bad family? If you had a horse you loved, you would not put him in a stable with other horses that were sick and diseased; and do you not love your child better than your horse? God has entrusted you with the souls of your children; you have a charge of souls. God says, as 1 Kings 20:39: “Keep this man: if he is missing, then shall your life be for his life.” So says God, if the soul of your child miscarry by your negligence, his blood will I require at your hand. Think of this, all you parents; take heed of placing your children in Egypt—in a wicked family! Do not put them in the devil’s mouth! Seek for them a sober, pious family, such as Joshua’s. “As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Josh 14:15. Such a family as Cranmer’s, which was a nursery of piety, a Bethel, of which it may be said, “The church which is in his house.” Col. 4:15.”

    Note that Watson takes parents to task for placing children in environments where Godly instruction is neglected. How much more would he condemn the placing of children where mere neglect is not the issue, but an open hostility to their Christian faith. One who cannot see that the public school system is a den of idolatry is woefully or willingly blind. One could take the opinions seen here against the removal from public schools and argue that the Israelites should never have taken their children out of Egypt. Certainly it could be argued that the children should be left in Egypt to be salt and light as little missionaries to the little Egyptians, that the Egyptian system, though it had problems, was still very efficient at training the little ones to be effecient brick-makers, and that not every Israelite family had the means to aupport a thoroughly Godly education and would find the burden placed upon the parents a most unneccessary one.

    The discussion as to what type of Christian education, whether homeschool or private, can be a fruitful one, when engaged according to Biblical parameters. But the question of whether an ungodly eduaction is permissible should, for sincere Christians, be a no-brainer.

95. on 14 Feb 2008 at 10:10 am   Gummby

    Nathan: you’ve got yourself a live one here, that’s for sure. We had this discussion in a homegroup one time, and the leader was an advocate for homeschooling only. Where it got interesting, of course, was when he was giving the usual lines about the godless system, and teachers, etc., being complicit in this ungodliness. Interesting, because there were two members of our homegroup who work at the local public school. The discussion was heated, to say the least.

    My father-in-law is an assistant superintendant of a public school; my wife has taught previously in the public school setting; and both of my parents have worked in public and private schools. I was educated in the public school system, as was my wife. I went to private high school, and my wife public. My kids are schooled by my wife through a “virtual school” option, which is a cooperative effort between her and the public school system. In other words, we’ve seen and done it all.

    My observation is, it’s easy to hate a system. (Hopefully) it is a little harder to show disdain for those in your church or community who are trying to make a difference in the world, just as anyone who works for any secular employer is doing. I don’t think the comparison of American public schools with the Hitler youth is apropos, for a variety of reasons. And if we make it a sin to participate in any “governmental school system,” then we make believers around the world, who frankly know much more about holiness and suffering than we do in the US, guilty of sinning if they don’t refuse mandatory government schooling for their children.

    Thanks again for tackling this difficult topic, and may we all find grace for those who see things differently than we do.

96. on 14 Feb 2008 at 12:02 pm   Banner Kidd

    “I would say that the Law is not binding on Christians, as evidenced by the fact that we don’t keep the Sabbath, we eat what we want, we wear what we want, and we don’t do sacrifices.”

    What?!?!?!?!? Just because we don’t do it does that mean it’s not binding? That’s ridiculous! Yahweh didnt and hasn’t changed. It’s the arrogance of man who says we decide what is right and what is wrong that is the problem. If each person lived out Torah the problems between us would not be so huge. Torah deals with them. We argue over so much that is already settled if we simply believed what Yahweh said instead of our own brand of doctrine!

97. on 14 Feb 2008 at 12:03 pm   Former SCV

    God sovereignly elects and chooses those who are his. But if there are no Christian kids (who have been faithfully taught by their parents and their church) in the public school system, who will evangelize those students who don’t come from a Christian background and have no knowledge of the truth? The church I attended and now attend are filled with people in their 20s and 30s, who came to Christ in the public school system. They were either brought to youth group by their Christian Friends. Or they saw something different in their Christian friends which made them ask questions. Is it any different than an adult who faces a pagan environment in the workplace, which is filled with lying, greed and selfishness, and is brefriended by a Believer and that person starts to ask questions about Christianity?

    Granted we don’t want to throw our children to the dogs. They don’t have the same level of discernment. But does the passages cited really make homeschooling or Christian schools a biblical mandate. They folks at Grace say no. Rather, it is a wisdom issue where each circumstance must be wieghed invidually.

98. on 14 Feb 2008 at 12:08 pm   Ginny

    I hear alot of “the ends justifies the means” in the comments. Just because you went to public school, worked for the public school system, or know somebody who knows a person who has a brother who is a public school teacher does not justify anything.

    I’m also confused by Jeremy W.’s comment: “I am frustrated that so much of our parenting (and I see this expressed in homeschooling the most) is built around us saving our kids.” Who ever proposed that homeschooling was a means to saving our children? I think that was cleared up 50 comments ago. No one here seems to believe that.

    God have mercy on those who justify their selfish decisions regarding their children by claiming God’s grace will cover them. Shall we sin more that grace may abound?

    We are saved AND kept by grace…but does that free us from the personal responsibility to keep ourselves unspotted? Do we not pray that God will keep us from evil and yet some throw their children to the world every day and hope they come out on top?

    And regarding the age when a child becomes an adult…Exodus 30:14, Numbers 1:18, 20 and there are more about sending men to war, etc, all are consistent by counting from 20 years old and up (which would be 19 here in the west). To me, that seems clear that the age of an adult is 19. Interestingly, I heard about a study done that claimed the part of the brain that deals with the understanding of long term consequences is not fully developed until around 19 or 20. Just a side-note.

99. on 14 Feb 2008 at 12:51 pm   Jesse Johnson

    Banner Kid,

    I don’t think it is the arrogance of man that decided we are not under the law. You see it pretty much settled in Acts 10:17, as well as Acts 15. Notice there that it was the arrogance of man that wanted to keep people under the Law, and God himself had to declare that we are no longer under it.

    Are you saying the Christians are still under the sacrificial system? Do you still carry out sacrifices, and bring your offerings to the temple? If that is true, home schooling is not really the biggest issue, here.

    Thanks,

    Jesse

100. on 14 Feb 2008 at 12:56 pm   Nate B.

     100 comments and counting … whew!

     This has been an interesting discussion so far. Thanks to all of you for your comments, especially those of you who have maintained a spirit of charity on what can quickly become a heated topic. There have been thoughtful observations made from those on both sides of the issue. I hope the dialogue has been edifying.

     Though I have been following the discussion fairly closely, I have not interjected until now. The main reason for this is that my article was centered on the text of Deuteronomy 6:5–9; and most of the subsequent discussion has had relatively little to do with Deuteronomy 6:5–9.

     However, there is one point that several commenters have made about my article. It is an important point, and one which I think needs to be addressed — and that is with regard to my claim that the Mosaic Law Code is not immediately binding on New Testament Christians.

     The nature of this particular article did not allow for a full discussion of the New Testament believer’s relationship to the Mosaic Law. But it does bring up a good question, and one that I think warrants further investigation. So, next week, we plan to do a series on this subject — the Christian’s relationship to the Mosaic Law.

     For the record, I am not saying that Deuteronomy has no value for or applicability to New Testament Christians. After all, Paul states that all Scripture is profitable in 2 Timothy 3:16. What I am saying, however, is that we must be careful in how we apply portions of the Mosaic Law to Christians today — since Paul states that the Law is no longer binding on New Testament believers (cf. Romans 6:14; 8:2–4; 10:4–5; Galatians 4:21–31; 5:18; Ephesians 2:15; Titus 3:9).

     But we’ll talk about all of that more next week.

     Again, thank you to everyone for your comments. If nothing else, I hope this discussion encourages all parents to recommit themselves to faithfully disciple their children. Thinking through these things has certainly convicted my heart again in that regard.

     By His grace and for His glory,
     NB

101. on 14 Feb 2008 at 2:13 pm   Susan

     As I reflect on the goodness of God, I am putting my trust in Him to lead me in discipling my children. I have failed many times. I thank Him that He restores a right spirit in me.

     I know that homeschooling isn’t an ideal life for many of us for various reasons. It gets tough sometimes. We might worry about the kids getting all the learning that they need to succeed. We might worry about them appearing “normal” to people. We might worry that they don’t get enough time with kids their own age. And we also might get selfish with our time. I know I do. And then there is the financial burden that many of us feel as we attempt to live on one income.

     I understand most of the reasons that most of my friends and family have decided to place their children in public schools. I have experienced many drawbacks to homeschooling. Because I understand, I can offer my understanding.

     Still, I am convicted and convinced to set my mind and the minds of my children on “whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise….”(Philippians 4:8) With that in mind, I have asked myself “Does the promotion of the ideas that there is no God, that we were not made in His image, that trans-sexualism and homosexuality are acceptable, and that we answer to no one fit into the categories of this verse?”

     Yes, God is truly the author and finisher of salvation. But does that mean He approves of what is taking place in these classrooms? His holy Word leads me to believe that we should flee such immorality.

     If we are to care about what doctrines our children are taught at church, and if we are to care about bringing up children in the discipline and isntruction of the Lord, then shouldn’t we also care about what we subject them to outside of the church walls?

     In Christ,

     Susan Wright

102. on 14 Feb 2008 at 2:30 pm   Lisa H

     Forgive me, but I have not read through all of the posts. But felt the need to weigh in on a couple things:

     1. Public school education is an opportunity to be salt and light in the world without being of the world.

     I canNOT agree with this. We are talking about children, not adults that are in a situation where we have given authority to the teacher and the school to educate them. There are a lot of implications in that for a young child. Their safety and well-being is also being given over and that gives a child a heap of trust in their teacher and the system into which we have placed them. It is a huge uphill battle to win back what is lost through this system on a daily basis. One person commented that not all education is equal and I could not agree more with that. In our public school we are allowed to sing songs with the name of Jesus in them, and that is a wonderful thing. But it does not compel a child to question to care and instruction that is being given by a public school teacher.

     Is the teacher teaching from a biblical worldview? Do they have the ability to teach from a biblical worldview even if they would like to?

     2. Many children are not able to make the transaction to hide God in their heart before they start their formal education in the school system. So, we are sending them off to learn in a Godless system before we have given them ample time to hide God in their hearts. If they have not made this transaction, it is impossible for them to be Salt and Light to their classmates/teachers.

     3. We tell our children to respect authority. How are they to respect that authority when it runs smack dab against those things that are being taught in the home?

     Premise: We you prohibiting our children from being Salt and Light in the world by not allowing them to attend public School?

     1. Unless you live in a mansion and have servants to do all your errands, you will be in the world. Today, we went to the grocery store, the library and Taco Bell. At each of these locations my children interacted with other people. It is silly to say that if we do not public educate our children, they will not have the opportunity to be Salt and Light.

     2. Children who are in different situations with different aged people are better apt to be able to communicate with those people.

     Children are NOT adults and do not have to capacity to defend their faith which is very much still developing. It is unfair, in my opinion, to expect these children to combat an organized infrastructure that has as it’s goal to change the fundamental doctrines that we hold so firmly to such as the authority of the parents and the supremecy of God.

103. on 14 Feb 2008 at 2:42 pm   Stephanie Tyler

     Nate-thank you for clarifying your comment about the application of the Mosaic law. I look forward to hearing future posts about this! This was my first objection to your post…because that was what came across to me. I realize that the Mosaic law is not binding to NT Christians, but I believe there are benefits to keeping it. For example, look at the benefits documented in Dr. Rex Russell’s book about keeping the dietary laws. (What the Bible says about Healthy Living)

     I’ll try to stick with Deut. 6 and your original post:
     “it directly commanded Israelite parents to consistently teach their children the things of the Lord within the normal activities of life”
     To me, this is exactly the definition of home schooling. I’m able to live life and teach as we walk through it. I believe this is the example Jesus showed us in the NT. When I look at the standards of raising children in God’s Word I can’t in good conscience come to any other conclusion.

     You go on to say that “the passage says nothing about reading, writing, and arithmetic”…are you implying that the bible says nothing of these subjects? Please look at the book “Encyclopedia of Bible Truths for School Subjects” by Dr. Ruth Haycock. It is such a great reference that shows the connection between biblical truths and your typical school subjects. My two cents…education is discipleship, and discipleship is education…nothing is neutral, even math!

     on #4 saying this mandate is for fathers specifically: I would agree. I believe lots of fathers are abdicating their responsiblitiy in this area, whether to a school or a mother homeschooling. The church would be wise to spend more time discipling fathers! Of course, I do believe it is a wife’s role to be a helpmeet in what her husband has been called to do and this includes the discipleship of the children God has blessed them with.

     Lastly you say that the application of this passage can be done no matter what schooling option you choose. Yes, it can be done. But how much harder is it when your children spend most of their day away from the parents who are called to disciple them? (whether that’s a private or public school)

     I think everyone holds strong convictions–which is why they’ve chosen what they’ve chosen! God gave us a conscience for a reason and we must follow them. I challenge others to search the Scriptures more than a book or experience or what others say…then follow the conviction God gives you.

104. on 14 Feb 2008 at 2:49 pm   Gummby

     Ginny: I wonder if you’d outline the Scriptural case for why you think those who don’t choose to homeschool are “sinning more that grace may abound.”

105. on 14 Feb 2008 at 3:08 pm   Banner Kidd

     I am interested in the discussion that will begin next week. This is a new thought to many. It was to me a few years ago. No I don’t sacrifice. Yeshua is the sacrifice and the Great High Priest. That part of the law is transferred back to the eternal priesthood, which is a deep subject. As for Acts 10 – That has nothing to do with keeping people “under” the law. It has to do with people and the attitude of the Israelite that gentiles were unclean in and of themselves – couldn’t be fellowshipped with or sit at dinner with, etc. It had nothing to do with annulling the commandments, contrary to popular teaching. When Peter explained what the vision meant he made it clear what it was about and he said nothing about eating pork, or shellfish or any other unclean animal that was not considered as food by the Almighty. Acts 15 also does not annul any of the Torah. In fact it substantiates it by the statement that the Law of Moses – Torah, will be taught in the synagogue each Sabbath. The four given were just the first essentials, much like we do with new believers now. We don’t lay it all on them at once because they aren’t ready. They will learn as they attend the gatherings and study the Scripture.

106. on 14 Feb 2008 at 4:00 pm   Nate B.

     Hi Stephanie,

     Thanks for your thoughtful and gracious response. I am likewise looking forward to the series next week on the Mosaic Law.

     I am not familiar with Dr. Russell’s book on the dietary laws. I’m sure it contains much very valuable and helpful information, and (if opportunity allows) I look forward to perusing it at some point in the future. In an Ancient Near Eastern setting especially, there is no doubt that the dietary laws had health benefits attached to them. (I do have to say, though, that I’m thankful for NT passages like Mark 7:19; Acts 10:9–16; Romans 14:1–12; and Colossians 2:16 every time I eat a bacon cheeseburger!)

     You asked if I was implying that the Bible has nothing to say about reading, writing, or math. Actually no, I was not implying that, since my article was focused on only one passage of Scripture. On the other hand, I must admit that I am not immediately aware of a verse or passage that directly prescribes a right method (or system) for teaching a subject like math. And I would be interested to see what passages Dr. Haycock points to along those lines. In any case, my point was that Deuteronomy 6:5–9, in its context, does not specifically address those subjects.

     You agreed that “the application of this passage can be done no matter what schooling option you choose,” though you noted it would be “much harder” at a public school. Perhaps so, though I don’t know that everyone would necessarily agree with you. That being said, I was encouraged that you were at least open to the possibility that Christian parents can be faithful in training their children “in the discipline and instruction of the Lord” (Eph. 6:4) even if they choose something other than home school.

     Again, thank you for your comment. Like I noted in my original article — I am not anti-home school. It can be a very good option, and the right choice for many parents. It just may not be the right choice for everybody.

     Your final word of encouragement — challenging others to search the Scriptures more than a book or experience or what others say — was most appropriate. We all need to be Bereans as we look to God’s Word for His wisdom in making our daily decisions.

     Respectfully,
     NB

107. on 14 Feb 2008 at 4:06 pm   Dr. Gregory Thompson

     Nathan, I come to you with the love and forgiveness of Jesus, with a reproof from God’s word because of your influence on HIS children. As you attempt to bring a compromising spirit to appease your church community, it will allow the world’s relative interpretations of truth to give a deceptive moment of peace to parents that feel they have no other option. It also allows pastors to hide from their duty to stay in God’s Word and call all men liars. There is no doubt that the children that are lost because of the teachings of the atheistic & pagan government school system is on the head of the church and the parents. The church many times has not taken a stand, and as a result evil fills the vacuum. Satan loves you for saying it is a gray area and that the parents should make their own choices, and the church will stay out of this because it is gray and we don’t want to lose any offerings to other churches that are willing to tickle your ears by telling you what you want to hear. (please forgive any initial pain, and allow the Holy Spirit to help you through this message.)
     Listen to what I am saying, (to give you a foundation of expert testimony) and know that I have been in all positions of schools up to and including superintendent, along with holding state positions, and now sit on a school board in the government school system that is atheistic and pagan and the children that go there are at risk. Every school in the nation is infected, there is no neutrality, and the schools failures in our eyes is a success in the eyes of those who are indoctrinating the children, which goes beyond the local teachers.
     Read Ephesians 5:6-12, knowing the importance of having no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. The government schools are the unfruitful works of darkness and this is another area that the church from pastor to pew sitter has abandoned allowing evil to fill the void.
     I can see Jesus on the cross saying about each who are being disobedient to His word, “Father forgive them, they know not what they do”. When you are blind, no one can tell you so, as you believe that you see. Government education is a very touchy subject to many people because so many are caught up in the economics of the system. While we won’t go into those details right now, know that you must not leave this area gray and allow yourselves and those you influence to be able to have a deceptive peace. God’s wisdom instructs us that no child should be educated outside of the parents and the church. So the absolute thruth about what is available today, is that there is no other options for parents that love their children to the point of wanting their soul in heaven for eternity, they must put them in a Christian home school or good Christian school and that should be supported by Christian churches if they truly serve Christ. May Jesus open your eyes and ears to this truth, and if you need help in this area, please get back with me. There is too much evidence Biblically and historically to show why the government school system that exists in America today would never be given the OK by Jesus for you to put your children at risk there. To say otherwise shows extreme ignorance or a rationalization being used because of other agendas, which may or may not be consciously known by the one rationalizing, and who may have been indoctrinated in a government school setting. In either case, it would be better for pastors or others in authority to be silent, rather that take a chance of leading someone away from Christ, by speaking on something of which they do not know as absolute. I send my love and prayers in Christ to each of you. Gregory

108. on 14 Feb 2008 at 4:12 pm   Daniel Chaney

     Many people have made the statement “by going to a public school, our children are being salt and light.” However, this is a desire, not a fact. Bad company corrupts good morals. At this time in their lives, they need to be in training to be salt and light. Baby birds are not pushed out of the nest until they can fly. During those years (ages 6-12 especially), children are particularly vulnerable. There may be some cases where a child has made it through without any problem, but that doesn’t make it right. The passage in Deuteronomy is not just a command to consistency, it is a command to constancy. This type of training is to be done NON-STOPPED. In a public school system, whom does the child interact with more, his family or his peers and teachers? Of those two choices, which one is going to encourage him to Godliness? The answers to these questions alone is enough to tell me what is right, and what is not.

109. on 14 Feb 2008 at 4:22 pm   Daniel Chaney

     Another thought for those who say that home schooling can be right for one and wrong for another. There is only one right. A curse on the nation of Israel was that everyone did what was right in his own eyes. We cannot just say, “well home schooling is right for me and public schooling is right for you.” This is not an amoral choice. There is a difference between not knowing what the scripture says about it, and saying that it is amoral. If we look at it in terms of morality (which we should), it is painfully obvious which choice is Biblical. It is not a case by case decision, it is right or wrong. It think those who say that public schooling is okay need to find Biblical support for that assertion. If it can be found in scripture, I would be willing to change my view, but no one has even attempted to give scriptural backing.

110. on 14 Feb 2008 at 5:03 pm   William du Plooy

     Hi brother Nathan,

     I totally agree that this lies in the Romans 14 issues.
     And your explenation resounds with me as a disabled dad who is unable to provide for my son’s private tuition in any form or shape in the future; whether at Secular school or at “Synagogue”. I cannot afford to send him to a private education or to purchase home schoolong materials, nor indeed wil I be physically able to engage in such a commitment. I also have not Fellowship of Grace believers in my area in the United Kingdom and here we are a barren country in the spiritual realm.

     What does seem rather surprsing is how you equated the Sabbath law with homeschooling? I know that as a believer in Messiah we are bought free from the Law and it’s bondage, yet we are also taught that the Law is our delight and carries a real blessing with it…

     Knowing my brethren at Grace Community Church and it’s associate ministries I just wish to bring some clarity to the comment concerning the Sabbath.

     I am sure that you will agree that the Hebrew Bible is equavalent to the very Word of God, which if practiced carries a real blessing and benefit with it (Do I show my envy for a Hebrew Faith in Messiah; perhaps).
     Yet I do not say that it is a matter of judgement form the LORD if we do not follow the Law, but that certainly the LORD of the Hebrew people is the very same God we serve, I AM, Messiah Yeshua.

     Thus I would propose that we delight in the Law and in the Sabbath, in bringing a willing freewil sacrifice to the LORD of mercy and grace, whom has bought us free from the OPPRESSION of the Law, and given us the gift of Redemtion by free grace.

     Should we keep the Sabbath?
     Yes and No.
     Should we delight in spending time with the LORD and His Church (Our fellow saints); Surely we ought to, if we truly do love Him and His redeemed, even for the sake of the lost, as an example of our freewil sacrifice in love of Christ Jesus our LORD and good Master.

     I am certain you do agree with me Nathan, but to a person who has providentially “happened” upon this article (And do not know much about GCC), it may seem that the comment and or it’s comparison with the Sabbath Law and the Feast Laws may demean the Hebrew Scriptures and give a reason for lasiviousness. (I hope I spelt that right?)

     As a Messianic type believer I delight in the Hebrew Covenants as much as in the Covenant of Grace, but I ofetn find an assumed superiority in the modern Church which demeans the Root of our Faith (Romans 9-11).

     Let us not forget that Messiah is born of Israel, so our Faith is that of Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, John the baptist etc.

     Having attended the “High” Church of England for a funeral recently, my disgust and offense taken by the “superiority” complex of that organisation has brough these issues to the fore.

     I am no propagating legalism, like you rightly judged this is a Romans 14 issue, but let us not give reason for the flesh to “quench” the Spirit’s work in sanctification. Rather let us exhort each other unto a holy living of sacrifice, not as masters over each other but speaking truth in love.

     I am sorry if I have opened a whole new issue…

     Thank you for exploring this issue.

     I really did appreciate the two articles

     By grace alone through faith alone.

111. on 14 Feb 2008 at 5:04 pm   Stephanie Tyler

     I appear to be gracious, but I could have easily stated things as many of your other commenters. I do see it more black & white than shades of grey. His Word says he hates luke-warm Christians! I think even accomodating a difference of opinions for many homeschoolers (myself included) is very hard for us. We do not want to seem luke-warm, we want to share the truth (or what we believe is truth??) It truly is a passion, I believe a God-given one! Does it often show itself in pride and arrogance? Yes! This is definitely a struggle! But some of us feel so strongly that we believe to sit quietly is to deny our conscience…and is sin…maybe that’s why emotions are running so strongly!

     P.S. another good book recomendation: “Mathematics: Is God Silent?” by James Nickel

112. on 14 Feb 2008 at 5:21 pm   Matt

     Nathan,

     Before your series on the Christian’s relationship to the Mosaic Covenant, you might think about writing an article on whether or not it should be considered a “gray area” for a believer to serve on the board of a government school system that is atheistic and pagan. In the meantime, keep up the good work.

113. on 14 Feb 2008 at 6:16 pm   David d

     Brother Nate, your time and effort may be better spent if you could perform an exegesis of Scripture to defend that parents who are believers in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ should send their children to a pagan seminary for their training. Again, Christians can “arm wrestle” about what the Bible teaches on Private Christian School or Homeschool. Yet, I have yet to see anyone argue convincingly from God’s Word (seen a lot of poor hermeneutics) that Christians can and should send their kids to a secular-humanist institution where God’s Truths are hindered and in many instances the school’s culture is hostile towards our Lord.

     I do see a consistent thought pattern from those who feel that it doesn’t matter whether parent’s today choose to send their children to a godless center for the majority of their training 9 months out of the year for 12 years of their lives.

     1. “Well, when I went to school things were not that bad…”

     Nice personal experience stories, however, we are not talking about then, we are talking about now. Was there bill SB777 in school when you went??

     2. “Well, I came to Christ and so did my friends in Public Schools…”

     Praise God! Again, that was then, this is now. The facts show that there is an overwhelming amount of the “converting” going on, but it’s the pagans and their indoctrinating system that is converting the children of Christian parents. I stand on the overwhelming amount of evidence (see links in earlier post) that demonstrates this, and it is not based my subjective personal experience. Keep in mind that the general population uses the Public Schools and over 80% of Christian parents choose to send their kids there today.

     3. “My kids need to be ’salt and light’ to the lost children in school.”

     That is not the proper understanding of, nor application of that Scripture. Rev. E. Ray Moore, who is on the front lines, said it best, “Being a missionary is not kids play — it’s adult work and certainly not for children who are not yet prepared or trained apologetically to defend their faith and beliefs. Christian parents who send their children as surrogate evangelists to public schools may sincerely believe they are doing the right thing and I certainly don’t believe they are willfully or consciously being disobedient to God. Rather, I believe they are doing so for any one of a number of misguided reasons. It could be a case of not taking the time to really investigate what the Scriptures have to say regarding their responsibilities to protect their children; they’re unaware of the facts regarding public education as mentioned previously above; they haven’t taken a long hard look at the potential consequences of their actions or perhaps they’re following the advise of someone or some misguided program. Regardless of the reason, the fact remains that they are either being deceived or deceiving themselves if they believe their children can be successful as missionaries in the public education system. It is only by the grace of God that in some cases He protects their children from harm.” (“Salt and Light”)

     4. “God is sovereign. I can’t change whether they are God’s elect or not, so it doesn’t make a difference how they are raised.”

     If you really and truly hold that view, don’t support your local church, your pastor, your missionaries, or outreach program. Do absolutely nothing and live anyway you want because you’re either “in” or you are not. Raise your kids anyway you want. Don’t read the Bible and surely don’t support anyone who thinks you should, because it really is all meaningless. I mean, God is God and He is sovereign so just sit there and let the Lord work His gracious work of mercy in your children’s hearts. (Of course, I am kidding.) Please read an excellent message by Spurgeon on God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Responsibility @:
     http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0207.htm

     Spurgeon writes, “Remember, when the heavens shall be on a blaze, when Christ shall come to judge the earth in righteousness and his people with equity, there will not be one excuse that you can make which will be valid at the last great day… some will say, ‘I was not predestinated.’ What hadst thou to do with that? Thou didst; do according to thine own will when thou didst rebel. Thou wouldest not come unto me, and now I destroy thee for ever. Thou hast broken my law—on thine own head be the guilt…—Ye knew your duty and ye did it not: ye trampled on everything that was holy; ye neglected the Saviour, and how shall ye escape if ye neglect so great salvation?” (“God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Responsibility”)

     Or, in the words of the greatest North American theologian, Jonathan Edwards: “Let us, therefore, labour to submit to the sovereignty of God. God insists, that his sovereignty be acknowledged by us, and that even in this great matter, a matter which so nearly and infinitely concerns us, as our own eternal salvation. This is the stumbling-block on which thousands fall and perish; and if we go on contending with God about his sovereignty, it will be our eternal ruin. It is absolutely necessary that we should submit to God, as our absolute sovereign, and the sovereign over our souls; as one who may have mercy on whom he will have mercy, and harden whom he will.” (“God’s Sovereignty in the Salvation of Men”)

     And Edwards wrote in another sermon: “Indeed a person cannot have spiritual light without the word. But that does not argue, that the word properly causes that light. The mind cannot see the excellency of any doctrine, unless that doctrine be first in the mind; but the seeing of the excellency of the doctrine may be immediately from the Spirit of God; though the conveying of the doctrine or proposition itself may be by the word.” (“Divine & Supernatural Light”)

     So, if you have born with me thus far, in light of God’s clear and evident sovereignty over all things, where does one receive the “word” & “doctrine”? How can one “know their duty”? How are we to learn to “submit” to God and what does that look like? (Hint- Bible, Preachers & Teachers). Again I ask, how does sending children away who are just babes in the faith to a place where virtually none of those ways are exhibited and/or allowed aid in their spiritual growth?? It doesn’t and the facts, research, and studies show this to be true.

     Again, Edwards understood the frailty of children and their hearts when he wrote: “Those that are young are more unstable than elder persons. They who never had convictions before, have less experience of the difficulty of the work they have engaged in; they are more ready to think that they shall obtain salvation easily, and are more easily discouraged by disappointments; and young persons have less reason and consideration to fortify them against temptations to backsliding. You should therefore labour now the more to guard against such temptations… There are vast disadvantages that they bring themselves under, who have several turns of seeking with great intermissions. By such a course, persons exceedingly wound their own souls, and entangle themselves in many snares.” (“Pressing into the Kingdom”)

     Pastors & parents, we need to repent from what we are doing to our children, and train them up in places safe for their hearts and minds and most importantly for God’s glory.

     May our precious Lord & Savior open our eyes to this truth.

     Soli Deo Gloria!

     David d

     1 Cor. 15:33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.” 34 Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.

114. on 14 Feb 2008 at 7:58 pm   Steven Lamm

     Dear Stephanie Tyler,

     I appreciate your gracious attitude. I have three grown children, all godly adults for which I praise God. Though the two oldest were homeschooled for a couple of years, they all attended public school in a fairly conservative district. Yet, I firmly believe that their strong spiriual walk is not an accident. It was the result of diligently following the commands of Scripture to spiritually nurture and disciple our children, as well as the grace of a good God who watches over the affairs of His children. If you want more details, look at my response to a question in the previous post (http://www.sfpulpit.com/2008/02/05/home-private-or-public-school/). My comments appear about ten posts from the end. I also posted early on in that article (before things really heated up!). I’d like to know what you think about my comments.

     I think you can make a deductive case by citing Biblical principles for the obvious benefits of Christian education (HS or CS). But, I do not think you can make the case that parents who choose PS are in sin (as some have said outright or insinuated in these threads). In fact, one would have to show a direct violation of the commands of Scripture to make that case. You certainly cannot make it from Deut. 6:4-9. For, any parent that positively obeys that instruction (or Eph. 6:4, etc.) is in fact obedient!

     Stephanie, by all means make your case for HS or CS. But be very careful when you do so that you don’t imply that good believers who choose PS are sinning merely by making that choice.

     I sincerly believe that this issue falls into the category of “disputable matters” which Paul says requires grace (Romans 14).

     Blessings in Christ
     Steve Lamm

115. on 14 Feb 2008 at 9:31 pm   Gummby

     Steve Lamm: your words are filled with more grace and salt than I could muster. You’ve captured what I’ve been struggling to say. Thank you, brother!

116. on 15 Feb 2008 at 7:33 am   Daniel Chaney

     Matt,

     You said to Nathan, “Before your series on the Christian’s relationship to the Mosaic Covenant, you might think about writing an article on whether or not it should be considered a “gray area” for a believer to serve on the board of a government school system that is atheistic and pagan.”

     If a job will require you to teach something that goes against what the Bible says, then there is no grey area. Also, we are talking about young children who are not yet prepared to withstand temptation, not mature believers.

117. on 15 Feb 2008 at 7:41 am   Ginny

     Dear Gummby: Please note I did not state that those who choose to send their children to PS were sinning, but rather that those who make selfish decisions were sinning. But on the same note, I must add that in speaking to many people on why they send their children to PS or even Christian school, their replies have never been in the best interest of their children. Not one. In fact, we have known many people who once homeschooled and now PS and their reasons, likewise, were always to make more money or it was too much work. Well, isn’t that something. Not one person has ever told me they thought it was the best option for their children. In fact, the majority sheepishly admit that homeschooling would be best, but it’s not for them. What is one to think then? I would never make a sweeping judgment and say all those who PS are sinning, but I’d like for once, to have someone give me clear biblical reasons for sending their little ones off, other than the shallow “to be salt” argument. My goodness, what if I decide not to tithe because of money, or serve because of the work. I do not point to the decision itself as the sin per se, but the challenge from me is to look at your motives, your heart, your reasoning. Instead of trying to justify it, try to line up every reason and motive with the Word of God. That’s how many of us homeschoolers got where we are. We look at our lives through the Bible, not the Bible through our lives.

118. on 15 Feb 2008 at 8:49 am   David R. McCrory

     What I think what would be interesting to see is a Scriptural defense from those who are suggesting that, given the current PS enviornment, Christian parents can Biblically send their children to PS while demonstrating they have their childrens best spiritual guidance & protection at heart and are doing ALL they possibly can to fulfill Eph 6:1-3.

119. on 15 Feb 2008 at 8:52 am   Ray B.

     You can apply Deut. 6 and Eph. 6 if you choose either HS or PS. Some children , as some have already said , will be lost that have experienced either one. It is the daily teaching of the word and your children seeing the daily consistent application of the word in your life. And I stress the word consistent. As a parent you are modeling what it means to be a Christian parent , husband and wife. Actually as you raise your children you are raising the parents of your grandchildren. You are modeling what it means to be salt and light. What it means to walk in the footsteps of Jesus. Your conversation and life will be the most important example for them. Model the word for them if you choose HS or PS.

120. on 15 Feb 2008 at 9:35 am   David d

     There has been some talk on whether or not it is a sin for Christian parents to send one’s child away to a pagan indoctrinating institution for the majority of their education and training. This is an excellent question which many seminary trained people need to wrestle with by using, as Paul said, the “whole counsel of God” (Acts 20:27).

     I’ll keep this short and focus on how sin is most often used in the Bible. It is not going to address how the word sin is used in every case but in more of the general sense (O.T. & N.T.). My prayer is that hearts are awakened to what sin really is and how it can even cloud the thinking of Believers/Teachers today.

     1. Simply put, sin is “to miss the mark”.
     Anyone who picks up a Lexicon can see this from just a cursory examination of the Greek and Hebrew languages.
     In the Greek it is Hamartia- to miss the mark, to err, be mistaken, to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong, to wander from the law of God, violate God’s law

     We see the word “hamartia” used over 170 times in the New Testament.
     (shows up 39 times in Romans alone and 24 times in Hebrews) In the Hebrew the word is “Chata’” again meaning to “miss the mark”, miss the way, go wrong, incur guilt, forfeit (shows up over 200 times in O.T.)

     Paul used it: “What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, ‘You shall not covet.’ But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me.” (Romans 7:7-10)

     Used again Scripture: But exhort one another daily, while it is called Today; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Heb 3:13

     Sin is also translated as “hamartano” again meaning “miss the mark” and is used about 39 times in the New Testament. (6 times in Romans and 7 times in 1 John)

     Paul again: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23)

     As did the apostle of love: “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” (1 John 2:1)

     So factoring all of the above information, it makes sense to concur with the following statement from one commentator: “The word sin in Hebrew is [chattath], from the root [chatta], and in Greek it is [hamartia]. Both these words mean ‘to miss the mark.’ They are words which illustrate that something is off target. With relationship to God’s laws, they mean that one has failed to meet the standard (missed the mark) set by God for us. God’s mark or standard is His law. Thus sin is the transgression of any of the laws of God.” -T. Warren

     So here is the question, are parents who chose to send their children away to an institution that is for the most part antithetical to our Lord and Savior, making or missing the mark in the training up of their children? Just like I don’t think you have to be weatherman to know whether it is raining outside or not, neither do you have to be a seminary-trained person to know the answer to that question. If it still is unclear, read your Bible again and examine all of the research/studies pointing to the huge falling away. An overwhelming majority children are missing the mark today because their parents are missing the mark.

     “A whole generation of Christians has come up believing that it is possible to “accept” Christ without forsaking the world.”- A.W. Tozer

     I’ll stop here because I could into a whole new realm of how one can sin (miss the mark) both by commission and omission, but I’ll save that for a later post.

     “It isn’t the thing you do dear,
     It’s the thing you leave undone
     That gives you a bit of a heartache
     At setting of the sun.”-M. Sangster

     In Christ,

     David

     But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Heb 3:13

121. on 15 Feb 2008 at 9:48 am   Ginny

     “Some children , as some have already said , will be lost that have experienced either one.” Ray B.

     As Christians, we should not be obedient because we think it will produce better results. We obey because we love the Father and choose to serve Him faithfully REGARDLESS of the results. I doubt the homeschool community, unless they buy into the health and wealth preaching, would contend that because they homeschool, their children will be godly. As a mother who is with her children all day, I understand fully the foolishness that is bound up in children.

     This reminds me of people who say they don’t spank because it doesn’t “work” for their child. Conditional obedience? You’ll obey only if it works? These are merely excuses to disobey. What is interesting about this though, is that homeschooling done by godly parents DOES in most cases produce wonderful results, yet those trying to justify their decision to PS seek to only find fault. I wonder why that is?

     We are not guaranteed “results” to our liking, but we will stand before God someday and account for our own obedience.

122. on 15 Feb 2008 at 11:25 am   Ray B.

     Being a model of what it means to follow Christ is being obedient. Our children must see us , their parents , being examples of what it means to be Christ – like. My wife stayed at home for 18 years. All of our children attended public schools. They are all now Christian adults and fully active in local churches. They all graduated from a large state university. Our two daughters met and married their excellent Christian husbands while attending the university. While at the university they were invovlved in a very active campus ministry. Same is true of our sons. One also met his excellent Christian wife during this time at the university. Our oldest son was also very active in the campus work. He remains single. All of our children work hard , are law abiding and faithful to the Lord and His church. It all goes back to the influence they had each day. My wife and I were committed to being Christian parents from the time each child was born. No, not perfect. But trying to the best of our ablity with divine help to be what God wants from parents.You cannot overlook parental teaching by the word and example.

123. on 15 Feb 2008 at 12:13 pm   Scot

     Thank you all for straightening me out on this.

     As a homeschooling father of four, I thought I was merely providing my children with the best education I could give them.

     How cool that what I was really doing was guaranteeing their salvation by following God’s checklist/law and – bonus – giving me something to boast in!!! (I should have known all this since I just studied Galatians and it talks all about why God’s grace is just the beginning and that the rest was up to me – good thing I was already circumcised!)

     Thanks for letting me know how very wrong I was to even think that I might still be able to influence my children if I sent them out into the world. I thought “in” and “of” were two different things. I guess that is because I went to public school and, as I now know, God has no power over the influence Satan had over me all those years.

124. on 15 Feb 2008 at 12:42 pm   Jesse Johnson

     Maybe I’m the one who doesn’t get it, but I can’t believe how many people are using this post to defend home schooling and bash public schools. That is not the point of Nate’s article. I know that because he says so three or four times. The post is showing that Deut. 6 is should not be used to mandate home schooling.

     The points could even be granted that home schooling is by far superior to any other form of schooling, that public schools are of the devil, and that kids who go to home schooling are protected from the 80% falling away that happens to other kids. Those points could still all be true, and Nate’s post on Deut. 6 would still stand, because it is not arguing the merits of home school, but rather the point of Deut. 6.

     It was interesting to me that after the first article that Pulpit ran, many people commented using Deut 6—in fact some commented using only Deut 6—as if that settled the debate. Nate’s post is designed to show that it does not settle the debate. And now many of those same people are commenting that Duet 6. doesn’t matter, public schools are just plain bad. That may or may not be true, but the point here is that Duet. 6. is not a decisive verse in this debate.

     Jesse

125. on 15 Feb 2008 at 2:18 pm   E. Ray Moore, Jr., Th.M.

     JESSE
     You have the point exactly. Some of the pro-homeschool posts indicate a belief that Deut 6:1-9 does indeed apply to Christian education and thus family-based and Christian home schooling.
     Nathan valiantly tried to dispel this view but, in my opinion, he failed. Moses, Jesus, and the OT and NT writers did not use term “home schooling” as it is a modern invention, but these Biblical principles, no matter what you call them, transcend time and culture. The terms we accept today, such as “trinity” and “inerrancy” do not appear in Scripture either.
     Jesus quotes Deut.6:5 in Matt 22:37 making it applicable to the NT era. There are many other biblical texts (listed in prior posts) that support family-based and/or church-based education as a Christian norm.
     Conversely, such texts would also prevent a faithful Christian family from putting their children in harm’s way for 30 hours per week for their K-12 education. The federal courts have legally defined our public schools as pagan and godless. We also have such warnings as 2 Corinth 6:14-19; Col. 2:8 and Matt 18:6; 19:14.
     So, to those who want to wiggle out from under Scriptural authority regarding their children’s Christian education, we say, “Read and apply the Word of God and pray.” Blessings.
     (E. Ray Moore, Jr, Th.M.)

126. on 15 Feb 2008 at 2:31 pm   Steve Lamm

     Jesse,

     As a Pastor/teacher, I have the same concerns. It’s imperative that a believer not merely quote the Bible, but properly interpret it according to authorial intent.

     The larger issue is how do we properly interpret and apply the OT to the church. I’m looking forward to Nate’s posts on that subject.

     Perhaps Nate can recommend some good resources for further study when he posts on it.

     See you at Shepherd’s Conference.

     Steve Lamm

127. on 16 Feb 2008 at 7:36 am   Rsy B.

     Daniel and Mike ,
     Another verse to throw into the discsuuion is Rom. 5 : 19 . In the use of “many”. Many were made sinners and many
     were made righteous. So is it many or all who are sinners and is it many or all made righteous ?Throughout the whole chapter Paul is contrasting the first Adam with the second Adam.
     1. tresspass by one man , grace of the one man , vs. 15
     2.the gift is not like the result of one man’s sin , judgement and condemnation from one sin , gift followed many trespasses and brought justification , vs 16
     3. death one man , life through one man , vs. 17
     4. condemnation for all men , justoification for all men , vs 18
     5. many made sinners , mnay made righteous. , vs. 19.
     A contrast between the two but notice the use of all and many being used for sinners , condemnation, life and justification. I do not think a theology of inherited sin is being presented , just the difference beween Adam and Jesus. Yes , sin and death came into the world as a result of sin but to say a baby is held accountable for the sin of Adam is to me a stretch with the text.The child is not held accountable for the sins of the father. Cain and Abel were not held accountable for the sin of Adam and Eve. Jesus said the children belong to the kingdom of heaven. Sure He was speaking of humility but still He said they make up the kingdom of heaven. Both of you think from a different perpestive That is why I say we will disagree. This is the best way for me to answer both of you. It is as honest as I know how to deal with the issue through scripture.

128. on 16 Feb 2008 at 10:58 am   David d

     Brother Jesse, and those who still are wavering on whether a secular-humanistic education is causing mental/spiritual harm to millions of children and thinking that it “may or may not be true [that] public schools are just plain bad,” I would graciously ask you to step away from your subjective feelings. Remember that in today’s culture “right and wrong have been redefined in terms of subjective feelings and personal perspectives.” (MacArthur) Come now let us reason together (Isa.1:18).

     It is a fact that there is an unprecedented falling away of the next generation. Nobody here has put all the blame on Public Schools. We agree that parents are responsible for how their children are trained up. As the saying goes they can “delegate” their authority but never their responsibility.

     So what is behind this falling away? I can identify three main culprits:

     1. Parents who are abdicating their roles as the primary disciplers of their children. They have gradually drifted away from their God given roles over the years. Upon being released prematurely to the world (Eph 2:2), children have gravitated toward their friends (peer dependency), media (Hollywood), religious institutions of secular humanism (public schools), and yes, even their churches’ youth culture (entertainment sprinkled with devotions) for how they should live and for their discipling.

     2. Our churches have let in the world and its ways/wisdom (1 Cor 1:20) under the rationale that we are trying to reach them, but in actuality they have reached us. We are the ones who are becoming like the world. Look at the problems within the Body of Christ, they virtually mirror the very lost world that we are trying to reach for Christ. As a teaching elder in my church for many years, I have counseled numerous men who have embraced the world’s ways and it has come back to bite them in a big kind of way. Lacking clear biblical preaching from our pulpits today on how we should really be training up our children, we as a Church today are living to see this come back and bite us in a big kind of way.

     3. Finally, of course, is the culprit of our non-neutral secular-humanistic indoctrinating centers, otherwise known as the public schools. These pagan institutions are built on the religion of humanism, promoting a worldview that is void of God and His teachings. The children receive this instruction for 30-40 hours a week for 9 months out of the year for at least 12 years of their lives, yet many rashly claim that this is not a factor in the falling away of the next generation. Not to beat a dead horse, but the facts show that there is a direct correlation between children’s worldviews and how they were trained up.

     The solution? Let’s get back to living bold and courageous lives for our Savior who has bought us with His very blood. You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. (1 Cor 6:19b-20a & 7: 23a). It is not that we are to live as we please, but live as the One who has redeemed us has instructed. Our Creator gave us the “Playbook,” written not by man but by the One who created man. We are seeing the result of years of man’s syncretizing, abandoning and/or marrying his fallen, finite and fallible knowledge and wisdom/ways in trying to “better” or “modernize” what God has already revealed to us through His Word. It is time that we throw out our playbook full of plays on obtaining “personal peace and affluence” at the expense of the next generation and embrace with our mind, body and soul the eternal game plan that never changes, never grows old and always works. We need pastors, churches and parents to preach the unadulterated Word of God, live out transformed (Rom. 12:2) lives Coram Deo and in a way that demonstrates to a lost and dying world that He is God of life, love and light for all. All for God’s glory!

     In brotherly love,

     David

     “Paul always moves from doctrine to behavior. In all his epistles in the New Testament we first find great statements of truth followed by a call to behave in accord with truth. …If Christians today were really saturated by and knew the Word of God, when their emotions started to react they would stop and do what they know the Bible teaches to do, not what their emotions would charge them to do, even though their motives might seem to be so good. So let the word of Christ dwell in you.” -John MacArthur

129. on 16 Feb 2008 at 9:26 pm   Jeff Flora

     I agree with you Jesse that most of the comments here are off of topic. I am perplexed though, that Nathan believes that the home school people that have posted here think that home schooling is God’s mandate for the only way to educate their children. Several actually mentioned that they don’t, while several others never mentioned that they did.

     Also, you can’t blame several for commenting about the evils of PS since both you and Nathan have stated in one way or another that that is a biblical option for Christian parents. They are only trying to show from Scriptural principles that it should not be an option.

     Father of 10, all Home schooled,
     Jeff

130. on 17 Feb 2008 at 6:00 am   Ray B.

     Sorry , my last post was misplaced. It was for another discussion . Got confused. Comes with becoming more forgetful.Disregard for the home schooling or public school discussion.

131. on 17 Feb 2008 at 3:23 pm   Karl Priest

     “My experience, as a 35 year public educator proved, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the public schools cannot be changed. Couple that with my observations of the dumbing down movement of public education confirms that classroom teachers are encumbered so heavily that there is no hope to improve the pitiful academic situation in public schools. Even worse, the public schools are controlled by the ACLU, teacher unions , and other left-wing extremists which make the public schools detrimental, even dangerous, to all children–especially Christian children.” Please see http://exodusmandate-wv.org/.

     I am VERY disappointed that the Grace Community is compromising with the world on this issue!

132. on 18 Feb 2008 at 7:16 am   William du Plooy

     I don’t want to seem to be argumentative, but can ANYONE prove that ALL homeschoolers become True believers, or invesely that ALL PS students becoma athiests or unbelievers?

     I am sure that it is a matter of PERSONAL responsibility and STEWARDSHIP.

     Yet, as I had previously said I have an envy (Good and bad) for the Hebrew education system that we see Samuel entering at a very young age.

     I would greatly desire that the Spiritual Israel of today would return to a Spiritual Education system within the “Synagogue”/Church. But equally I can trust the LORD to work Prividentially all things together for good to those that love Him, those CALLED His elect according to His purpose. If my son should be saved I have every confidence that with the limited commitment and resources that I have, I will instruct him in the Way of the LORD, whether that means that I spend longer hours countering the false teachings of secular schooling, or if it entails my trusting the LORD for providing a Biblically sound education by means of assistance.

     Should the LORD will it that my son NOT be a believer, well, therein lies the greater test of my faith. Do I love God more than my own son, YES unequavically, yet as an outpouring om the grace and love of my Father I desire that my son should be saved, BUT I hold no power over that as we all know this to be a personal issue between my son and the LORD.

     I think the point raised here is:
     1. Is it sin to send your child to public school, if you just simply cannot afford it? Or if God has sovereigly NOT provided you with the capacity to homeshool?

     2. Should we condemn all education or should we take responsibilty on a personal level for our children?

     3. How do we find the balance between the above?

     I would also like to remind you that because the secular workplace requires qualification for workers,it has dramatically changed the dynamic of education in the last 40 years. In the time of Scripture I cannot forsee many people walking around with a CV looking for a job, declaring their educational training by recognicion of the Educational Authorities. Again it point to a Communal life and culture which is alien to most of us in the Western world. People knew each other intimately and thus the recognition came by personal interaction.

     We have lost that sense of society and with it our educational needs have changed.

     Continue to inetract with your children, their teachers and with their society. That way you as parents may becme salt and light to unbelievers and who knows what great things the LORD will do when we are MORE involved with others and our children.

     1 Corinthians 13:2
     “And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all KNOWLEDGE, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not LOVE, I am nothing.”

     By grace alone, through faith in Christ Jesus our LORD God and Saviour.
     

133. on 18 Feb 2008 at 1:49 pm   Jason

     This discussion comes at a great time for my family. We have five children from 3-13 yrs old. We have homeschooled all the school aged children up until now. I would like for some to seriously answer a question from Feb.13 by Scott T. He asked something to the affect of, “When does a child become an adult?” I think that is a good question. It seems to me that in the Bible or at least Jewish culture at that time, that you entered into adulthood at about the age of 12-14. Why do we think that that step does not take place until someone gets into their twenties or now days even their thirties. I think Dr. Al Mohler bloged on the subject of adolescence and discussed this issue. I am not 100% sure about that.
     But if in the days of the apostles you became an adult at say 14, then why not homeschool or Christian school until then? There is no doubt that by the time a person is 16-18 yrs old, which would be sophmore-senior in highschool, they ought to be able to be in the world and not of the world, just like every other adult.
     In Christ,
     Jason

134. on 18 Feb 2008 at 5:10 pm   Daniel Chaney

     William,

     You said, “I don’t want to seem to be argumentative, but can ANYONE prove that ALL homeschoolers become True believers, or invesely that ALL PS students becoma athiests or unbelievers?”

     No one here has argued that point, so I am not sure what you were trying to say by asking that question.

135. on 18 Feb 2008 at 5:11 pm   Roy E Pearson

     The whole discussion here points to a failing in the education of Christians. Christian Pastor reach too often back in to the History Books of the Bible to prove or accentuate points that are not proven or accentuated in the New Testament. It seems to never dawn on these well intended men of God that God had it that way for a reason.

     Questioning God is a time honored tradition with the People of God both Old Testament and New. From Abraham having a Son with Hagar, to the present day deception that Jesus or anyone in the New Testament tells us to tithe, we get in to tricky waters when we seek to justify in the Old Testament, what is clearly stated or not stated in the New.

     The Bible is God’s Word, the Old Testament the Christian version of His word to the Jewish people, and the New Testament his Word to Christians. Most Christians are not Jews by birth and none are Jews by faith. So the Old Testament is not God’s Word for us. We have much better than that we have Jesus.

136. on 19 Feb 2008 at 7:09 am   Daniel Chaney

     Roy,

     You said, “So the Old Testament is not God’s Word for us.”

     WOW! I hope that is not what you meant to say. That is so utterly false that I am at a loss for words at the moment. Every part of scripture is God’s Word for US. Both the Old and New Testaments are for all people of all faiths of all ages.

137. on 19 Feb 2008 at 7:41 am   Chad Duncan

     I am a homeschooled graduate. I then went on to go to college at Liberty University, graduated from there and am now continuing my education to get my MBA. I agree with Nathan. In my years of being homeschooled the people I met that homeschooled their children all did so thinking it was the only acceptable form of education for a Christian. I was homeschooled because we were a military family who moved so much our parents were worried about us getting behind. when my father retired while I was in highschool i had the choice if I wanted to go to PS or not. I chose no. Being homeschooled opened many more opportunities for me than I think PS would have.

     I think however, that the church and Christians have a misconstrued view of homeschooling. It’s either 2 extremes. 1: People think that homeschooling is the only way to go and that it’s what God wants for all Christian families. 2: Homeschooling is a weird thing to do, that produces socially challeneged children who may be smart but can’t deal with people around them.

     I personally was surrounded by both of these views. The church I went to in highschool, which I eventually left for many different reasons, was not “homeschool friendly.” it was really rough growing up like that. My brother and I felt like outcasts in our youth group sometimes.

     I agree 100% that it is not Biblically mandated as the way to teach children. I also feel it is a “wisdom” decision and choice. As Christians we need to respect those who do and do not homeschool. We need to be in prayer for our school system. It is going downhill with the liberal, pro-gay, pro-abortion, pro-”free sex” philosophies. Soon with the downfall of the PS system homeschooling may become “the only way to teach our children.”

     God bless,

     Chad

138. on 04 Mar 2008 at 8:35 am   KC

     I understand that this thread has probably been snipped and no one may read this post, but if only for my own clarity, I feel like summing up…

     The original article (remember that?) almost seemed to be making this point: The Bible does not specifically mandate homeschooling, therefore it is a matter of individual choice whether to send our children to a public school.

     While the fingers are pointing at those who choose to homeschool— “You can’t use Deuteronomy 6 to say homeschooling is the only way”; “Your kids are locked away, not being salty or shiny”; “You want to produce super-students and feel all holier-than-thou with the rest of us”—a very simple issue is being lost.

     WHY ARE WE DEFENDING PUBLIC SCHOOLS?

     God bless those dedicated, godly teachers who try to function within the state system; God bless those conscientious parents who try to reform the system, who diligently “debrief” their children each and every day to dig up whatever unbiblical seeds have been planted. But can’t we just admit, the state school system is working just as it was intended, to produce servants of the state, not servants of the Lord. Yes, the shining examples of those who come through with their faith intact are inspiring, but they should not be used as excuses to send our own little lambs into a machine that is designed to release them as atheists, humanists at the end of the production line.

     Why are we defending public schools?

     Yes, you can certainly argue that some Old Testament Jews were sent to synagogues to be instructed (note: not to Babylon to be instructed). You can argue that, technically, homeschoolers shouldn’t be relying on mom to do the majority of the teaching—it should be dad. It’s dodging the core issue.

     Maybe this quote from the article strikes closer to the core:

     “Thus, the question of whether or not one should home school is outside the direct command(s) given in Deuteronomy 6. Obedience to this passage demands that a parent consistently teach his or her children the things of the Lord as a regular part of life. Whether that parent teaches his children algebra or English grammar is not the point.”

     Because whether the parent teaches his children these things is exactly the point. Public school can only appear acceptable if you consider it “religiously neutral”—a place where my kid learns the religiously neutral disciplines of math, grammar, etc.

     But there is no such thing as religious neutrality. If you believe that homeschooling is just academics with the unbiblical stuff pulled out and lots of God stuff thrown in (and don’t feel bad, lots of people do think this, even lots of homeschoolers), then public school would be just fine—all you have to do is make sure your kids don’t absorb the unbiblical stuff, and throw in your own God stuff at home.

     Public schools are not neutral. We’re just supposed to believe they are. I urge you to investigate further. As one wise person put it, we as Christians shouldn’t even be arguing the “homeschool vs. Christian school vs. public school” debate. Get the Christian kids home or in Christian schools. Then we can get all debate-y about which of those is the best. In love, of course.

139. on 04 Mar 2008 at 3:20 pm   Ed

     Some have asked whether a Christian could ever send their children to Public School with the conviction that it is the best for the children. I tend to lean in that direction.

     I went to a public high school, a secular private university, and taught in a Christian High School. My children go to a local Christian School. I have thought a while on this, though not as much as some have.

     My issue tends to be one of quality. I taught in a Christian high school that was, for many students and their families, just a way to avoid the public school system of a major city. I would have a hard time sending my kids to that Christian School (though to be fair, I doubt I would send them to the public schools there either).

     The curriculum we used (I taught science and math) was OK – not great, but not horrible. In some instances, “faith” was tacked on like an appendage to the lesson, seemingly out of character.

     But, if all truth is God’s truth, and if every profession can be done to the glory of God, why don’t I see more Christian kids entering professions that can highly impact the world. Christians love to moan and complain about the “wordliness” of politics, of medicine, of science, of philosophy – but how many consciously equip their kids to enter these fields on the offense?

     I’m tired of the retreat of the church into isolated huddles – people, monastaries were never the answer! Yes, we need to protect our children – but don’t let them be naive. And don’t characterize those “evolutionists” as one-eyed purple monsters that eat students for breakfast – some of them are actually quite nice, friendly, warm, and learned. When they learn that reality does not match the picture you have painted for them – guess whose credibility suffers?

     We like to say that we do not believe in things like “regenerational baptism” – but “life” will come “easier” if you only do “X.”

     Ideally, yes, I would love to have a Christian school in our area that is of high quality academically, has a variety of enriching extracurricular activities, is affordable, and yes, understood what a god-centered worldview is. But few of us have that around us. So, we try to figure out what is best for our children in our situation. I find far too many homeschoolers and even Christian schoolers who believe in the “absoluteness” of their choice that there is no possibility that they might be mistaken – and that they need to convert and confront others who do not agree. To me, that sounds a lot like pride and a divisive spirit. Have your conviction, stand by it – but look at the issue long enough to know that this is rarely an easy decision in real life. Be open to the possibility that your choice may not be the only correct one – for lots of reasons. And consider how much guilt you pile onto, say, a single mother with a very modest income and 4 kids, or someone who just can’t handle information above a 6th grade level and has 2 exceptionally intelligent students but has no “Christian Schools” around them. Or an orphan being raised in a group home who is a believer. If it’s an absolute, then you have to say to these people, it doesn’t matter, do it anyway. I hope there are few that would say this …

140. on 29 Nov 2008 at 7:30 am   David d

     Ed,

     I stumbled across your reply in doing some research for my next article and I find quite troubling your “subjective” argument and conclusion. I have laid out very succinctly a Biblical argument based on reason as to why a government education” is unbliblical today.

     http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=80738

     I am looking for my Erasmus in this debate but instead only hear deafening silence. You know some say that “silence is consent.”

     This is the challenge before the Church today. Can you not see it?

     Peace,

     David

141. on 30 Nov 2008 at 3:51 pm   Ed

     David,

     I read your article and while you have some points worthy of consideration, I must differ with you on your conclusions.

     First, I don’t know what you think of God’s sovereignty, the work of the Holy Spirit, or “decisional regeneration.” But you certainly sound like a determinist, believing that if you just do the right things, your kids will turn out OK. There are examples of children going to public school and having a strong faith and examples of children going to Christian schools and being home schooled and rejecting the faith (and vice versa). Doing “all the right things” does not determine your child’s choice. Whether or not the “culture” is going to pot has no direct bearing on whether my kids will do the same.

     Second, not every public school is in the heart of San Fransisco. Each area has its own flavor and distinctives to it. Some really are better than others. While it is true that no school in our country can be set up to affirm or endorse Christianity, it is possible to have a school open to parental influence, morals, and avoid prejudicial behavior.

     Third, it is never the governments ultimate responsibility to educate your children. Parents are held responsible for the choices they make. However you decide to do it is between you and the Lord. The Biblical prooftexting is unconvincing.

     Fourth, Christians are not supposed to be isolated from the culture. Yes, don’t be of the world – but be in it. Yes, bad company corrupts good morals, but don’t hide your light under a bushel. Monastaries never worked because they still let sinners in. Sin is everywhere, and whether you deal with it from outside influences or inside influences, it will be there.

     Fifth, James tells us that we are led into sin by our own desires – not by the external temptation. The temptation is just the opportunity to show what is already in your heart. Isolation doesn’t solve this.

     And sixth, the “causing another brother to stumble” argument you use is overused by those with strict consciences to bully others into doing things their way. If I know my child and have trained them and continue to train them, and I believe their faith will be strengthened, not hurt, by entering a more vigorous worldly environment while still under the care of parents at home and the church, who are you to say otherwise?

     Isn’t it odd that it is often the weaker brothers who think their position is so defensible by their logic?

     I’m afraid that you see conspiracies everywhere. God has not given us a spirit of timidity and fear …

     Do what you believe is best for your kids. Respect Christians who disagree as a matter of conscience.

142. on 30 Nov 2008 at 4:06 pm   Ed

     David,

     One more thing – as I reflect back on your argument, I only see two references to Scripture:Proverbs 13:20 and 1 Corinthians 15:33.

     I can just as easily fling back to you the charge of making a subjective argument. The verses you quote are not iron-clad against public schools or for home schooling. In the rest of your article, you quote scary statistics and make generalizations. Just because you have a statistic doesn’t mean it is worth anything …

143. on 22 Jan 2009 at 12:26 am   matthew b mclendon

     One of the most important issues here to keep in mind is that “one size does not fit all” and that seems to be the public school system’s motto. One size does not fit all and boys can’t be trained the same way as girls. As parents, we have to everything we can to meet the needs of the child in order for him/her to appreciate education and get the most out of it. When people talk of God and the laws of God and raising your child in the Lord, I don’t believe that it is just spiritual matters. Did God not create language, math, science ect..? Aren’t we as parents suppose to see to it to the best of our ability, that our children recieve the best possible means in order to benefit fully from edcation? The means may not always be homeschooling, or private schooling or an all boys school or and all girls school. Public schooling should never be considered unless you have no choice because of low income and single parenting to name a couple of reason for choosing public schooling. There is a conspiracy and it has been in effect for the past one hundred years by the government and secret societies to deliberately dumb down our kids. I give you Charlotte Iserbyt’s The DELIBERATE DUMBING DOWN OF AMERICA but I also give you Dr. Leonard Sax’s BOYS ADRIFT and Michael Gurian and Kathy Stevens’ THE MIND OF BOYS. The latter three authors explain clearly the real differnce in boys and girls. In the ‘MIND OF BOYS’, the authors provind MRI scans as well as other test of the brains from experts that clearly show the developmental differnces in both the male and female child. Boys and girls,but especially boys, cannot begin compulsory education before their time. They aren’t ready by natural law to sit quietly and listen for long periods of time like girls can starting at ages three and four. Boys have “boy energy” that needs to play its course just like girls have their natural laws of behavior and development that needs to play its course as well. In Charlotte Iserbyt’s book, the author explains from an insider’s point of view, how the government and the teacher’s union and the system in general deliberately sets up to create failure in the students as well as purposely orchestrating elaborate deception. It is also clear that the school system is guilty of witholding important information from the students to keep them from knowing their full potential. The writers of the text books have deliberately dumbed down math and the reading, writing and the english books to make it hard for the student to understand the concepts. There is lots more and I could go on, but I do believe you get my point here. I suggest you visit the website of the ALLIANCE FOR THE SEPARATION OF SCHOOL AND STATE and give careful consideration to their findings of the founders of the public school system and why they advocate homeschooling and private schooling as oppose to public schooling. There is too much substance to dismiss all that I have stated and careful consideration must be given on this issue. I do appreciate this website separating the real arguments from the flawed ones but, it is still the bottom line fact that parents have a moral obligation to ensure the best for their children including the issue of education. I suggest the reading of C.s Lewis’s THE ABOLITION OF MAN or MEN WITHOUT CHESTS and I believe if you will pay a visit to the AMERICAN COLONIST’s LIBRARY established by Dr.Gardiner that consist of many early founding documents of our nation as well as other documents that inspired our founders.

     By the way, can anyone prove to me that education is not a religous/spiritual issue? And, how many of you are aware of Public Law 97-280 (Stat 1211) that congress declares the Bible the Word of God? This was a senate joint resolution 165 and passed on 4 Oct 1982. Shouldn’t this whole educational issue and parenting issue be a separation of church and state issue to command the government to stay out of our business? I ask for a response to this last paragragh.

144. on 01 Mar 2009 at 12:51 pm   David d

     Ed,

     I don’t know if this website works anymore but I tried to reply weeks ago and it didn’t post.

     Here are a couple other articles for your reading:

     http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=83469

     http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=87264

     Peace,

     -D

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