Pulpit Magazine

Posted in Cultural Issues, Parenting |

139 Responses to “Does the Bible Mandate Home School?”

1. on 13 Feb 2008 at 5:56 am   Earl

   Well done Nathan - Thank you for centering your conclusions on the text (with sound hermeneutics). I commend you for responding quickly to the comments on the original article.

   I would think this would put the issue to rest. But, I doubt it will. Some will continue their isogesis and insist that their way is the only way.

   I think we are all better served to focus on Christ and His grace and mercy, and mortification of our own sin and emulating Christ’s love - than we are to sit around and debate this school thing.

2. on 13 Feb 2008 at 6:33 am   Kim in ON

   I agree that the choice to homeschool is in the area of “wisdom.” We all have different family dynamics, and different situations. Yes, the choice is up to the parent. The most important thing, no matter where we educate our children, is for parental involvement spurred on and informed by solid, biblical discernment. Far too many people jump on the bandwagon, either for or against, because someone has suggested it to them. I find it very concerning when “big names” take a stand for or against, and people follow suit because they feel the person is more informed. It must be a personal decision between parents and fmily.

   What I don’t like is the lack of grace expressed on both sides. I have one child I am homeschooling and one child in public education. I have another in secular university. I have been criticized by non homeschoolers and homeschoolers alike for my positions. I have been homeschooling for eight years, and I have seen the benefits and drawbacks of both systems. I have more practical experience with both sides than many of the most passionate commenters out there. There are far too many uniformed views floating around in cyberspace, and many of them lack common courtesty or civility.

   I think what often drives people, even though they may not want to admit it, is that they are threatened by people who will not choose what they choose. We want our personal choices validated by people rather than God.

   We need to practice grace with others and stop trying to be the Holy Spirit in the lives of others.

3. on 13 Feb 2008 at 6:35 am   Josh Gelatt

   Excellent article. While I fully support homsechooling, I have always been dismayed at the revisionist history of the homeschooling proponents. They try to claim that historically schooling was done in the home (until the department of education was established, contra Machen). Yet, a cursory glance at history disproves this. In the Christian world (and as you have highlighted, the Jewish world of biblical times), schooling was conducted by the churches. In antebellum America the pastor was considered the chief educator.

   You are right, precedent would favor the Christian school over the homeschool. Yet, I still think homeschooling is a valid choice that works very well for some families.

4. on 13 Feb 2008 at 6:36 am   dac

   Thank you for your commitment to the sufficiency of the bible.

   It is a concept in which understanding is sorely lacking in many

5. on 13 Feb 2008 at 6:48 am   Van Edwards

   Thank you, Nathan. Another passage I often hear as proof-texting for home-school is the “render unto Ceasar” passage, Matthew 22:21. This has nothing to do with education, but involves relinquishing what is due the government - i.e., taxes. Perhaps you could handle this passage as well.

6. on 13 Feb 2008 at 6:56 am   Mark

   I homeschool, but not because of Deuteronomy 6. In fact, I don’t know any fellow homeschoolers who cite Deuteronomy 6 as reason for doing it.

   We do it because we don’t think the Israelites would send their children to the Assyrians for education and indoctrination.

   A good Christian school seems like a viable alternative, if you can afford it. And if someone is a single parent, then perhaps (and sadly) public school might be his or her only option. It would be superb if his or her local church stepped up and schooled the children in those situations though. Now that would be something indeed!

7. on 13 Feb 2008 at 7:00 am   Tim Challies

   Thank you for covering this topic. It is an important one and I think you covered it very well. This is one “gray” area in which we simply cannot allow ourselves to try to bind the consciences of other Christians.

8. on 13 Feb 2008 at 7:19 am   Carla Rolfe

   I heartily agree with what Kim in ON said. Homeschooling is A choice, not THE choice. The decision to homeschool (or not) has to be made according to each individual family/child’s circumstances.

   What I’ve noticed more and more the longer I participate in or read articles & comments on this subject, is that there is a type of Cage Stage Educational Opinion among both sides. By that I mean that younger families who land on either side of this issue are SO passionate about it, and SO convinced that their opinion is the most accurate one, that their zeal often overshadows all the variables that always factor into these decisions.

   One thing mentioned by Kim above that I must say “amen” to, is the idea of “big names” being more informed on this subject. That is not always the case, and folks should know this.

   This is not something that should be approached lightly, but something that must be thoroughly researched before making an informed decision (for those that are in the position of making that decision). The better option is to listen to the wisdom of older parents that have battlefield experience, as it were.
   They’re beyond Cage Stage, and they’ll have insight into this topic that will help make a wise choice.

   There are pros and cons of public schooling, private schooling, and homeschooling. Your individual situation, child’s strengths or weaknesses, financial situation, employment situation, family/church support (or lack of it) and so much more has to be weighed out to determine which option is best for YOU and your child/children.

   The combined educational options between our seven kids includes many years of public school, many years of homeschooling, and secular university. Having that experience as the mom/teacher, affords me even more insight (and understanding) than I even had when we began homeschooling.

   2 cents from a mom who’s been there, and IS there, and still has 12 years to go, by His grace!

9. on 13 Feb 2008 at 7:20 am   Mark

   Here’s a funny story. A friend of mine who is a homeschool dad told me what happened when a friend of his came over with their dog.

   Here’s the scene. My friend has three daughters, and a dog. The oldest daughter is a pre-teen, I think 12-years-old.

   Anyhow, his friend came over with his dog and his dog began to, well, began to “know” the family dog in a Biblical sense (if you know what I mean.)

   Anyhow, the pre-teen homeschooled daughter innocently said, “Look daddy, our dog is giving a piggy-back ride to that dog!”

   And the daddy responded, “And THAT’S why we homeschool!”

   I thought that was a funny story.

10. on 13 Feb 2008 at 7:40 am   Hayden

    Nathan,

    Good job! I was a bit dismayed by last week’s comments. I used to teach at Grace Community Church’s school (Before I finished seminary) and also had much interaction with home school families because I taught their children as well on Fridays. All this to say, I saw the benefit of both methods and have even seen some of the students I taught in Junior High go on to public High Schools and have a great witness for the Lord.

    Truly, I do believe its is a wisdom issue for each family to consider with each child. The parents should be able to determine how their children are growing spiritually and base whatever decision they have to make on that. It should NEVER be dictated to them by someone else. I would hope that most families would talk with their Pastors as well. To make this an issue of sin in not homeschooling k-12 is a stretch. That would mean that many of the Pastors at Grace Community Church would be in open sin because they all do not home school. Are people ready to make that assumption about others that they do not know?

11. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:04 am   David d

    Nathan, I personally appreciate hearing your feelings on this subject and would like to go to task on all five of your points. But right now, the more important issue is the 80%+ falling away of the next generation and a direct link to public education.

    What I see happening is a red herring argument on a secondary issue, “homeschooling or bust,” a smokescreen to the real problem facing the church today, one that I don’t think we are truly addressing here.

    We can arm wrestle about homeschooling being the “only way” at a later date, but let’s stay focused on rescuing the millions of children who are being indoctrinated in a Godless institution while the church, for the most part, is turning a blind eye. I would think that SB777 over there in CA would be causing a stir in the hearts of Christian parents who send their kids to public schools and cause them to rethink the unbiblical model.

    That, Nathan, is where the debate needs to take place and where we need to focus our energies. Show me where the Bible says to send our children away to a secular humanist institution for the majority of the their training. Show me where it pleases God that the children of Christian parents are falling away at a rate of over 80%. Show me in Scripture where the decimated faith/worldview of the majority of the next generation is good for future of the church.

    What do you and those that support public education make of these facts? I’d like to know. We need to put aside personal experiences and opinions. Let’s stay focused on the heart of the issue–the hearts of the children.

    Blessings,
    David

    “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin (stumble), it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. Mark 9:42

12. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:05 am   Derek

    First of all, I am a Youth Minister in Oklahoma. We have a home school group that meets in our family life center once a week and we support them in that. We also have many families that home school. We support them in their decision to do so.

    The biggest problem I see in homeschooling as the only alternative to teaching is that we often want to overlook the mandate given to us in Matthew 28 which tells us to go into all the world and share the Good News of Jesus with the whole world and to disciple them in that way. If all Christians are called to homeschool and we only spend time in those circles with other Christians, how will we ever do as commanded and win others?

    In order to win the non-believer we must spend time with them and artound them, and that does include schooling. Many an opportunity has been found for our family to reach out to students and families in my childrens’ classes becaus of their attendance in a public school.

13. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:11 am   E. Ray Moore, Jr., Th.M.

    NATHAN:
    Yours is an inadequate response to those who support home schooling as a means to fulfill both the Great Commission with their own children and cite such texts as Deut 6:1-9 in support. I am frankly a little surprised at your attempt to dismiss Deut 6:1-9 as applicable to the NT era and to the current family and K-12 public vs Christian education crisis. Assuming that text is not applicable today in the NT era (which I do not believe) check out the NT reference of Matt 22:36-39 where Jesus quotes Deut 6:4-5 and then refer again to Deut. 6:7 where Moses applies this to discipling children. This text repeated in Mark 12:28-34 is called the “the Greatest Commandment.” How could you miss this? Poor exposition, Nathan. Go read these texts again and perhaps you will have a conversion not unlike Luther when he saw justification by faith for the first time in Romans 1:16,17. Justification was always there, but he had not seen it before.
    I don’t think most home schoolers believe that home schooling is the only way to fulfill those Christian education commands, most of us do also believe that the K-12 campus Christian schools or home school co-ops can fulfill the same biblical requirements. So by charging us in your response above as saying home schooling is the only way…is to create a straw man. But we are happily passionate about our home schooled children.
    Let’s follow Jesus’ commands and fulfill both the Greatest Commandment and the Great Commission and give all our Christian children a K-12 Christian education in campus Christian schools, home school co-ops or family based home schooling. All 3 of these fulfull the Bible’s explicit commands for our children.
    To reframe the debate…if I may try, “Can a Christian family place their children in the current pagan and godless K-12 public school system and be obedient and faithful to the Scriptures that relate to family and education?” My answer is NO…as such behavior also violates texts as 2 Corinth 6:14-19; Col 2:8 and Matt 18:6, 19:14.
    Many in the home school and Christian school movements believe how we educate our children is an obedience issue and that their brethren who chose to put their children in godless and pagan public schools are not being faithful and obedient to God in that realm of their lives. This is a hard saying, but with 70-80% evangelical Christian children who have been public schooled dropping out of the Christian Faith, I dare to bring this up. Thanks for having this discussion. Very helpful. Blessings.
    (E. Ray Moore, Jr, Th.M. at www.Exodusmandate.org)

14. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:19 am   Kim

    I see one of the blinders in the debate. When a child’s education is merely defined as a place to teach math, reading, and writing, it seems that just about any school setting could meet the goal–public, private, or home. So much more is at stake here though. Education is the process by which values are taught, where social skills are picked up, where worldview is shaped, and where a child is given the opportunity to take his knowledge and fit it into a structure that is either God-centered or man-centered.

    Anyone who believes that public schools only teach the three Rs is being deceived. There is no such thing as a neutral education. How sad that so many parents think that Johnny and Jill are getting solid academic lessons and nothing else at ABC Elementary. This is yet another flaw in the argument that any education is viable, as long as the parent feels it is the right choice for his family.

    Until we come to grips with the current sad state of our youth and the obvious, documented facts that, when looked at honestly, points to the abdication of Christian parents’ role in training up their own by sending them to a pagan seminary, we will waffle around and play games with Bible interpretation. In the meantime, millions of kids are being lost to a system that was never intended for God’s people to begin with.

    Deuteronomy 6 is as relevant today as it was then.

15. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:20 am   scott

    Good exegesis of the Deut. passage. Like Mark, I am a long time homeschool parent who has never heard anyone use this passage as a mandate to homsechool. Although, I’m sure some have used it as such.

    I see this as a matter of personal preference and would never consider it sinful to select one form of education over another as long as the parents are fulfilling their God given responsibilities.

    However, I admit that I have a difficult time reaching the conclusion that sending children to public schools is the wisest choice.

16. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:21 am   David R. McCrory

    Deut 6 is in the OT, but it is IN the Bible and therefore has relevence even to NT believers. There are principles and applications to be learned from that text just as much from any text. We cannot simply dismiss it as irrelevant.

    The principles taught there are focused on the parents responsibility to disciple their own children. The emphasis on how this is to be accomplished is through life lessons of everyday living (when you rise up, when you walk by the way, etc.). The assumption is that children will be with their parents during this time, and come under their influence and be taught by their hand. IOW, a child’s parents are their primary teachers. Not a stranger in some other place other than home for 6-8 hrs a day.

    Ephesians 6:1 says that a father is to raise his children in the nurture and admonishion of the Lord. A father has the spiritual oversight of his children to care for. It is his duty & responsiblity to do all in his power to nurture and cultivate a godly spirit & attitude in his children. With the help of his wife, his single greatest task is to develop his children’s love and affection for God. They are his mission field, he is their minister.

    Therefore, it is at best naive, and worst foolish, to believe that by sending your children off unprotected from the wiles of the devil 5 days a week, 180 days a year, subject to all manner of ungodliness that is our public school system, that a father could keep a straight face and say he is nurturing and cultivating true godliness in his own children to the best of his ability. It simply cannot be. No wise Christian adult would allow that level of worldly influence into his own life, let alone impressionable children.

    At 5 days a week, 180 days a yr, that’s over 5000 HOURS A YEAR you are subjecting your child to all manner of potentially secular, ungodly and unholy influences, some of which you may never be made aware of! While you’re hoping and praying your own child, who you are solely responsible for to guard and protect, and will stand before God and give account, is out from under your watchful care, and for what? A better job? Wordly status and influence? Two incomes? Oh dear people, let not the temptations and pleasures of this world compel you to compromise the spiritual nourishment of you’re own flesh and blood, merely to obtain temporal & material gain!

    Godly children are a blessing from the Lord. And though our God does want our children equipped to sustain themselves in this pilgrim’s place; to provide food, clothing, and shelter to those who will one day come under their care, He wants their hearts so much more. He desires faithful parents, who love their children enough, not to send them away for most of their waking hours each day, but rather parents who will pour their lives into the gifts He has given them. Raising children is a stewardship issue. And what happened to the man who took his Master’s treasure and went and buried it in the ground rather than investing time and energy into it? Rather than devoting himself to it’s growth? His was taken away and given to another.

    Blessings,
    David R. McCrory

17. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:35 am   Amos

    To David D

    I’m just curious, but I was wondering if you are aware of any studies done on the “80%+” falling away rate where it constrasts Christians who were educated in public schools against those who were educated by home or Christian schools. I just wonder if there would be a difference.

    Also, I would be interested to see how much the parents taking an active role to disciple their children (with or without formal Christian education) effects this number.

    I am an assistant pastor who works at a church with a Christian school. In our church we have children from all 3 education options. To me it seems like the thing that makes the biggest impact in the life of a child is not where the parents send them for formal education, but rather how much time and effort is being spent on personally teaching their children Biblical truth in the home.

    Amos

    p.s. Great job on the articl Nathan!

18. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:45 am   James McDonald

    Nathan,

    Ray Moore brings out much of my own sentiment on this issue. I wonder if Grace Community has considered the documented exodus from the faith by graduates of public schools. Denominations across the nation have reported youth leaving the faith in droves by their 20th birthday. And the church seems to ignore it.

    Contrast to this the work of Dr. Brian Ray with the National Home Education Research Institute. In a recent survey, Dr. Ray found that over 90% of homeschoolers profess the faith of their parents.

    So, if, as the Southern Baptist Convention reports, 88% of children are leaving the faith, while over 90% of homeschoolers are embracing the faith, what conclusion do you come to?

    It’s pretty simple, homeschooling works. And, I, for one, pray parents will adopt Deut 6:5-9 as a model.

    James M McDonald
    Pastor
    Providence Church
    familyreformation.wordpress.com

19. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:48 am   Earl

    Someone please show me that the 70-80% of kids dropping out of the faith is caused by public schooling. Please show me that data. If you are seeking to use traditional logic to justify your position, please do so with real facts and data with references and refrain from using logical fallacies (in this case, “cum hoc ergo propter hoc”, or “with this, therefore because of this”). I have never seen any data that shows and difference between HS and PS results after age 18. And even if it exists, correlation does not prove causation.

    Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but public schools are no more pagan and godless than the world.

    We are on dangerous ground when we take an opinion (apparently formed by flawed traditional logic) and try to fit scripture together to try and justify it.

20. on 13 Feb 2008 at 8:48 am   samuel

    I also know of no one who holds a home-school only and “no Christian schools” view. I do, however, think your post is out of focus with what is going on. The question should be about us all as believers pursuing what is best, not seeing all eventualities as equallt viable and open for discernemnt.

    Sending your children for indoctrination (that’s what education is) by pagans is a horrible option, and very irresposible for discernign Christians. Christian schools may be a good alternative, but fathers must see that they bring their children up as the Word dictates.

    The fact is that if we are to follow the Word in all it’s implications for fathering (as you laid out) our options in regards to education will very likelt not include Government Indoctrination, nor the “Christian” knock-offs that still breed peer-primary influence and consist of teachers who can’t get other jobs or are burned out wives of poor ministers. Is that fair? No. But it’s been the case at all the Christain Schools I am familiar with (over 10).

    And also…Homeschooling is great. But like other areas, it’s great when parents are surrendered to Christ, not otherwise.

21. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:06 am   Bill

    Nathan,

    Excellent commentary. I agree completely.

    Why don’t we (as some would suggest in this blog) just keep our children locked in their safe little rooms all day long and never let them come out because, God forbid, they actually interact with the lost. By all means lets not allow them to be ’salt and light’ in a dark world. The same God that protects me and keeps me in the truth throughout the day also is with my children as they go off to public school.

    Quite frankly, I am more concerned about the false teaching children receive at their local ‘Christian fellowship’ than I am at what they are taught in public school. I certainly don’t condone all that is taught in public school but with public school at least its obvious and is easily rebuked by sound Biblical teaching at home. Please don’t get me wrong, I’m sure there are well-grounded Biblical Christian schools/churchs out there and I praise God for them.

    But with the massive amount of deception and apostasy in the ‘church’ today I wish we were as zealous for attacking errors in the ‘church’ as we are attacking the public school system.

    Why don’t we start a ‘home-church’ movement?

    God bless.
    Bill

22. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:19 am   Christi

    “The command here, given to the second generation of Israelites (after the Exodus) on the verge of entering the Promised Land, is that parents must actively and consistently disciple their children in the truth—being faithful to teach them the things of the Lord as a regular part of life. It is a call to lifestyle discipleship, as parents bring up their children “in the discipline and instruction of the Lord” (Eph. 6:4).”

    “lifestyle discipleship” - Can I really effectively do this if my children spend the majority of their time away from me?

    “Obedience to this passage demands that a parent consistently teach his or her children the things of the Lord as a regular part of life. Whether that parent teaches his children algebra or English grammar is not the point.”

    As Kim pointed out a few posts earlier, education is not neutral. Can I “consistently” teach my children the things of the Lord as a regular part of his or her life if they are not with me consistently?

    “the primary application of this passage (that parents are to constantly and consistently disciple their children throughout the normal activities of life) is an application that is echoed in Ephesians 6:4. That application (as a command given directly to New Testament believers) is mandatory for parents today.”

    Is sitting in a class room, segregated by age really “normal activities of life”? I can not recall being in this position since I graduated.

    Once more how can I do this “constantly and consistently” if my children are not with me?

    Just a few questions to ponder in light of the above article.

    For futher pondering here is the definition of education out of Webster’s 1828 Dictionary

    EDUCA’TION, n. [L. educatio.] The bringing up, as of a child, instruction; formation of manners. Education comprehends all that series of instruction and discipline which is intended to enlighten the understanding, correct the temper, and form the manners and habits of youth, and fit them for usefulness in their future stations. To give children a good education in manners, arts and science, is important; to give them a religious education is indispensable; and an immense responsibility rests on parents and guardians who neglect these duties.

23. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:19 am   Grace

    If Deuteronomy is to be listed as “not binding on today’s Christians” then I would also recommend we discard the Psalms and Proverbs. What use would we have for learning what great deeds God has done in pre-New Testament times? I also note that the New Testament does not list the 10 Commandments so we no longer need to be bound to the laws of not stealing, bearing false witness, murder… If I recall, Jesus said he came to fulfill the (mosaic) law but not to abolish it.

    We are not bound to follow the Old Testament for salvation but how can a true believer simply decide they are not BOUND to certain parts of the Bible just because they are pre-dating CHRIST? They are not pre-dating God. I believe God said that every word, every jot and tittle (every dot over every i and ever cross of every t) is important and sacred.

    I urge you to consider that you are blaspheming the Holy Word of God to insinuate that a Christian is only BOUND to follow the New Testament.

24. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:21 am   Kristin

    Only time for a quick observation on the last entry… It states, “Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but public schools are no more pagan and godless than the world.”

    Isn’t that the point? The world is pagan and godless. Public schools are worldly. We are to be in it, not of it. I think those who choose to keep their kids out of a pagan and godless school are making the effort to avoid the “of it” and prepare their children to be effective and godly “in it.”

    God bless.

25. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:29 am   Mike

    Much of the way this stuff gets discussed is discouraging to me. Not because of tone or charitability, but because of what is being said.

    80% leaving the faith? First of all, even if it is true that 80% of children who go to public school don’t continue in the guise of religion, it’s not true that they were saved and public school screwed them up. We’d all do well to remember 1 John 2:19.

    Seriously folks, does public school make it harder for God to save someone? Does homeschool or Christian school make it easier for Him to save someone?

    I’m 100% willing to entertain the notion that sending one’s children to public school might not be the best idea, but certainly not because it’ll mean my kid will have a harder time getting saved there.

26. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:32 am   LD

    The question is not whether or not the Bible requires or requests homeschooling as much as it is that I would rather not have my children sitting for 40 hours a week in a secular environment with humanistic philosophy, God-bashing teachers, satanist and homosexual classmates surrounded by bad influences in general - being taught that anything is ok if you feel like it is and nothing is wrong to the point where if your parents take you to church more often than you’d like to go, you should turn them in to the Social Services. And I’m to be convinced that the average parent/child one on one conversation per day of 45 minutes and the two or three hours in church each week will somehow counteract those 40 hours?

    “Providence has ordained that I should be the greatest liberator of humanity. I am freeing man from the restraints of an intelligence that has taken charge, from the dirty and degrading self-mortification of a false vision called conscience and morality, and from the demands of a freedom and independence which only a very few can bear.” Adolf Hitler

    We are the joyous Hitler youth,
    We do not need any Christian virtue
    Our leader is our savior
    The Pope and Rabbi shall be gone
    We want to be pagans once again.”

    Song sung by Hitler’s Youth - children put in the public education system in order to turn out a generation of soldiers who could and would kill 6 million Christians and Jews.

    Seems that I heard that in a high school somewhere….not those exact words, but pretty close!

27. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:35 am   E. Ray Moore, Jr., Th.M.

    Earl:
    Easy to fulfill your request. Go to www.nehemiahinstitute.com and order research entitled “Teachers, Curriculum and Control” by Dan Smithwick. This is a study on Christian worldview comparisons between Christian children in public schools, campus Christian schools and home schools. The loss of the Christian mind of youth from evangelical homes who are public schooled is almost total. Sadly many youth from traditional Christian schools score far below Christian home schooled youth. Also, Barna Group has some studies and research too. Josh McDowell has addressed this issue, but I haven’t seen his research. Dr Brian Ray, Ph.d. with www.nheri.org has recently completed a study entitled “Homeschoolers Grown Up” on life style and behavior of 7,000 home schooled kids now adults in their 20’s or 30’s. Over 90% of these young adults are continuing in the Christian Faith and traditions of their families. Also, home schoolers in Dr. Ray’s study show more stability in other areas such as marriage, community involvement than their public schooled conterparts. Aha, examples of Proverbs 22:6.
    In 2002 the SBC Baptist Family Life Council reported loss of over 80% of their youth. You are correct that public schooling is not the only culprit, but it is the main culprit. To think that Christians can put their children in such a hostile and humanist environment for 30 hours per week or 14,000 seat hours in a K-12 public education career and for this practice not to wreak havoc on the Church and family doesn’t pass the common sense test, much less the theology test. This is an argument from experience and data, but is in accord with what Scripture teaches or would predict too.
    Why is evangelical Christianity so weak, anemic and powerless in society? Why are our Christian families breaking down? The answer may be a simple one, right under our noses too, but we refuse to see it because it would require painful soul-searching and repentance. (E. Ray Moore, Jr, Th.M.)

28. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:36 am   scott

    Mike,

    Bingo. The comments you refer to reveal an Arminian or Semi-Pelagian theology.

29. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:50 am   James McDonald

    Mike said,

    >>

    Is God not the Lord of the means as well as the ends? Do His promises, His conditional promises for our children, mean nothing?

    Indeed, He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. But He certainly uses the testimony and faithfulness of parents to His end.

    You seem so hung up on the documented 80% who are leaving the faith. What do you have to say of the documented 92% of homeschool graduates who profess the faith of their parents?

    This is a real issue people.

    Grace and peace,

    James M McDonald
    Pastor
    Providence Church
    familyreformation.wordpress.com

30. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:52 am   David d

    To Earl and all those who may be in the dark about the facts. Please take time to review only a handful of links:

    In no particular order the first link has had over 100,000 participants-

    http://www.dexios.info/culture_trends.pdf

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1558694/posts

    http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44770

    http://www.albertmohler.com/commentary_read.php?cdate=2005-04-11

    http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48001

    http://www.nehemiahinstitute.com/articles/index.php?action=show&id=30

    http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=55808

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=55928

    http://www.battlecry.com/pages/nytimesarticle1.php

    http://www.sbchea.org/custpage.cfm?frm=446&sec_id=446#news248

    http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=183

    http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=276

    There is a lot more where that came from. Again, what do you and those that support public education make of these facts? I’d like to know. We need to put aside personal experiences and opinions. Let’s stay focused on the heart of the issue–the hearts of the children.

    To God All the Glory!

    Peace,

    David

    1 Tim. 5: 24 The sins of some men are conspicuous, going before them to judgment, but the sins of others appear later.

31. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:58 am   Buddy Hanson

    God is not a man, that He should lie,
    Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
    Has He said, and will He not do?
    Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
    Numbers 23.19

32. on 13 Feb 2008 at 9:58 am   Buddy Hanson

    God is not a man, that He should lie,
    Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
    Has He said, and will He not do?
    Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
    Numbers 23.19

33. on 13 Feb 2008 at 10:06 am   Zach P.

    Brother Nathan,
    Thank you for your faithful work in the text, and for laying it bare for all eyes to see. You have done us a great service in this article. We would do well to follow your example in this discussion.

    I truly appreciate the challenge that Earl has offered in his comments regarding this article and the one before, and would deeply appreciate it if someone would respond to it.

    Surely the fact that 80%+ of children raised in Christian homes in our day are “falling away” is due to other factors than simply their attendance of public school, since that 80% includes home-schooled children as well if I’m not mistaken.

    What these kinds of statistics show us more than anything, in my humble opinion, is that far too many Christian parents (public schooling, Christian schooling, & home-schooling ones alike) are not being vigilant to “constantly and consistently disciple their children throughout the normal activities of life.”

    Too many public schooling parents are not intentionally and skillfully training their children to examine what they are taught and respond to it biblically. Too many Christian schooling parents are wrongly assuming that their children’s discipleship is covered simply because the child’s teachers pray in class and refer to Scripture in their class lessons. And likewise, too many home-schooling parents error in assuming that their children are followers of Christ simply because they show some kind of outward conformity to their safe Christian environment, without calling them to look deeply at the depths and seriousness of their sinfulness and their desperate need for a Savior.

    To echo what has already been wisely said: “We are on dangerous ground when we take an opinion (apparently formed by flawed traditional logic) and try to fit scripture together to try and justify it.”

34. on 13 Feb 2008 at 10:10 am   Zach P.

    Thanks to David d and others. I did not realize that a response to Earl was already given. Most of what I said still stands, however.

35. on 13 Feb 2008 at 10:18 am   Buddy Hanson

    Anyone who imagines that there are any “grey” areas in God’s Word, need to spend some time reading it. It should prove to be very educational and enlightening. My Bible has black words, and some red words, but no grey words. My Bible also says that since God knows everything, there is no reason for Him to change His mind.

    God is not a man, that He should lie,
    Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
    Has He said, and will He not do?
    Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?
    Numbers 23.19

    Those who bother reading God’s Word, instead of imagining what it says will find that Jesus came to abolish the ceremonial laws, not the civil laws. The civil laws present God’s will for how we should live and govern ourselves. Take those away and we only have ourselves to depend upon in creating laws by which to live. A dependence strictly upon the New Testament would leave us without any Word from God against murder, bestiality, rape, incest, withholding wages, pay for those in the ministry, or for keeping the Sabbath. (I will be happy to send references for these, but to save space, won’t list them here.)
    I travel across the country teaching what it is to have a biblical worldview. The Barna research group shows that only five percent of Christian adults has a developed Christian worldview (roughly the same percentage of Christian children who attend public schools). This is one percentage point LESS than the amount of German pastors who took a stand against Hitler in the 1930s.
    Any curriculum that does not have the law of God as its centerpiece is not true education. God’s Word presents the foundation of how we should live and govern ourselves. It is our final authority over our conduct and beliefs. Since God’s Word is true, this means that any educational system that is not based upon biblical principles is “false.” 1 So the contrast between Christian education and non-Christian education boils down to a contrast between a “true” and a “false” education. Or, put another way, a “true” and a “false” worldview. 2 For example, a true education must provide clear answers to the following questions:

    • Who am I?
    • Where did I come from?
    • What is my purpose in life?
    • Who is in control of the earth?
    • Where am I going?

    Christian teachers have as their primary responsibilities:

    • Forming their students’ minds to love and serve their Creator,
    • Not just to teach a trade, but to cultivate the student’s mind with biblical knowledge, and develop their reasoning for conversations with non-Christians, and last but not least to
    • Pray for them and with them

    Can it be imagined that public (government) school teachers approach their students with this mindset? We must not forget that Luke exclaims: “the child will be like his teacher!” 3 From this it should be abundantly clear that the public (government) schools are not an option. Neither we, nor our children are to be “unequally yoked together with non-Christians.” 4 Christian parents must either home school their children or make certain they attend a Christian day school.

    1 John 17.17; Psalm 119.151
    2 Romans 12.2
    3 Luke 6.40
    4 2 Corinthians 6.14

    As the prophet Isaish states:
    To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8.20

    This should about do it for any who prefer to delude themselves that there are any “grey” areas in Scripture, or that we have a God who is not quite as wise as we are, so we make dismiss His outdated wisdom and create our own sinful wisdom.

    For the Kingdom,

    Buddy Hanson
    Christian Policy Network & Christian Worldview Resources Center
    bhanson@graceandlaw.com

36. on 13 Feb 2008 at 10:58 am   Gabriel

    Just a few observations:

    - All the arguments against public schools seem to be assuming a universal standard for those schools. It is important for everyone to note that a public school in small-town Texas is probably a bit different than one in LA. Not all public schools are created equal in every way.

    - Arguments against public school also seem to indicate that once your child enters public school you’ve lost all ability to disciple them. There’s a difference between delegate and abdicate. I’d be willing to bet that the vast majority of the perverbial 80% of students who “walk away from the faith” 1) were never true believers to begin with, and 2) had parents who abdicated, not delegated.

    - Arguments against public school assume that no student is able to think biblically and will always buy into false worldviews. This is where wisdom of the parents come in. Parents know when their child is mature enough to withstand the onslaught.

    I went to public school 3rd-12th, plus a couple years at a community college. I was offered cigarettes, and been exposed to massive amounts of false truths and sinful lifestyles through those years. Yet the Lord preserved me and gave me the grace to withstand everything. I never for a moment bought into the false ideologies because I knew the Truth, and it was reinforced in every other aspect of life.

    The reality is that schools are getting worse in their indoctrination, but God is not getting any weaker. He is able to sustain true believers and enable them to be salt and light around them.

    As it turned out most of my friends were homeschooled. And as it turns out, very few of them are strong believers. Most of them get tossed to and fro by the winds of theological change.

37. on 13 Feb 2008 at 11:06 am   Denis

    I have chosen a private Christian school for my children.

    However, what I chose was not simply a school which opens the day in prayer and has a Bible class in addition to the other subjects (though those are good things which the school does). What I chose is a school which brings a Christian worldview to all subjects.

    I do sincerely believe that all aspects of education, not just science & sexual health, are impacted by the worldview held by those running the education system and that this worldview is reflected in the teaching of all subjects. And while I may not like it, the reality is my children are going to spend more hours during the week at school than they they are with me.

    So rather than seeing my role as a counter-influence to what they are learning (directly or indirectly) in their school, I chose a school which can be a parter in raising my kids in a way that honours and brings glory to God.

    This is a strong belief of the school too, that the school and the church are the parent’s primary partners in raising up a child.

    This is why I strongly encourage other parents to pursue a form of Christian education for their children.

38. on 13 Feb 2008 at 11:07 am   David d

    Following is the link that supports that homeschooling is and does work.

    >

    http://www.nheri.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=171&Itemid=47

    I just didn’t want some to think that there wasn’t evidence to support what homeschoolers have been saying all along.

    Soli Deo Gloria!

    Peace,

    David

    5 Thorns and snares are in the way of the crooked;
    whoever guards his soul will keep far from them.
    6 Train up a child in the way he should go;
    even when he is old he will not depart from it. Proverbs 22

39. on 13 Feb 2008 at 11:18 am   Denis

    I also have a comment regarding the salt & light argument for public education.

    I think children can be a salt & light in their communities without being a part of the public education system. My kids for example have friends they regularly play with on our street who do not go to their school and are not Christians. They have also taken part in various community based sports & classes.

    Not being in a public school does not exclude kids from being a very real part of their local community.

40. on 13 Feb 2008 at 11:26 am   David d

    Zach,

    Please take the time to read the links.

    When you wrote, ” …since that 80% includes home-schooled children as well if I’m not mistaken.”

    There are three points that come through loud and clear when you add up all of the on-going research.

    1. The Church is losing over 80% of the next generation. The majority of the today’s teens worldviews are in real sad shape. Studies show that a secular-humanist education is one of the top reasons-period.

    2. The Church has yet come to grips with it. I believe it will and slowly is by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    3. The majority of Christian parents don’t really seem to care. “One of the most startling observations, according to Barna, was how few born again parents indicated that one of the most important outcomes parents needed to help their children grasp was salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. ‘Only three out of ten born again parents included the salvation of their child in the list of critical parental emphases,’ ” - Barna Report 2005

    Let’s come together Church and turn this around for God’s Glory!!

    Peace,

    David

    3 John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth.

41. on 13 Feb 2008 at 11:26 am   gail m

    In not mentioning God, my public school teachers preached a thundering message daily. By implication they taught that God is not relevant to most areas of life..with every lesson, in every class period, all day every day for 12 years I was being taught to think like an atheist in the academic realm And didn’t even know that I was being indoctrinated.—Chris Schlect, Scriptural Worldview Thinking

42. on 13 Feb 2008 at 11:31 am   Kevin

    Nathan, great article! It has provoked a great deal of thought in my mind, as I see it has in many of your readers.
    For background, I am a Christian school graduate and curretnly homeschool my children for various reasons.
    I have seen many homeschooling families do a good job of isolating themselves from “harmful influences” of public schools and Christian schools. Christian schools started on the premise of removing our children from the ungodly influences of the public schools. Could we have missed something here? Have those sponsoring the Christians school movement help the demise of the public school by removing our “salt and light” influence from them? I am hearing now some homeschooling families do the same thing to “Christian” schools.
    I believe that Deuteronomy 6 teaches the responsibility of the parent to communicate their God to their children. One of your commenters was counting the hours that children are at school being taught by others. I wonder if we have tallied the hours they are home that are wasted on all kinds of things, instead of teaching our children about our God. As I said, I am a Christian school graduate and a homeschooling parent-and have loved both experiences. Nevertheless, we, as Christians, need stop squabbling about who is right and start making our influence count wherever God has planted us.
    Kevin

43. on 13 Feb 2008 at 11:41 am   Hayden

    To all those that advocate Home school only option,

    Do you send any of your children to Sunday School or allow a Youth Pastor opportunity to teach them? Seems to me, if you do, that you are violating Deuteronomy 6 because the Father in the home is not directly involved in said teaching.

    I am not equating what goes on in the church with what goes on in the public schools by the way.

    Also, all of these statistics are silly. C’mon, we know how statistics can be framed in many ways. (Think politics here) How come we are so sure of statistics that support our point but skeptical of others?

    I am a parent, and a Youth Pastor and have seen a ‘fall away’ rate that has concerned me BUT in my experience, and I admit my experience is limited to my area of the world, it has been not due to public school but the parents not being involved in the spiritual formation of their children. Homeschooling does allow for this but I have seen families that are not homeschooling well and have neglected this as well.

    All this to say, lets not make the issue of homeschooling a measure of one’s orthodoxy in doctrine. Allow for differences in opinion on this one, and take care of your children. All of us will have to stand before God and answer for how we raised our children!

44. on 13 Feb 2008 at 11:57 am   Hayden

    David D,

    Not one of the links that you provided gave the 80% falling away being solely because of public schooling. (At least that I saw) I have heard the statistic cited, I believe that it was Barna that did the study, and being concerned because I am a Youth Pastor but never heard it directly linked to public schools.

    I think much of this has to do with the church not teaching doctrine. We are too numbers focused! I am concerned with ‘Youth Ministry’ in general. Too much of it is fun and games and not enough biblical education, coupled with the decreased priority of the Word of God in family life. I believe this plays a major role in the ‘falling away’ rate as well.

45. on 13 Feb 2008 at 11:59 am   Zach P.

    Dear David,
    I greatly appreciate the links you have offered, and did read each one, though I am familiar with most of the findings presented in them. And I wholeheartedly agree with you that the research is weighty and deeply sobering.

    And…while I agree that secular humanist education is without question a top reason for the “sad shape” of today’s American “Christian” teenage culture; I would still insist that it being a top reason has more to do with the way that so many public schooling parents have neglected to meaningfully, skillfully and biblically interact with their children over the material they are being taught in their classrooms, than it does simply with the number of “Christian” children who attend public schools.

    All that to say, I believe it is far more urgent for us to call believing parents to “constantly and consistently disciple their children in the normal activities of life”, than it is to call them out of public schools. The former is a clear mandate from Scripture; the latter is simply a way to apply obedience to that mandate.

    I really do think we would likely agree on much more regarding these issues than we disagree on… Thank you for pursuing unity on this matter! Soli Deo Gloria!

46. on 13 Feb 2008 at 12:03 pm   Pastor Steve

    Hayden,
    Unfortunately, there are some in the homeschool movement that do not trust anyone else to teach their children. I came to pastor a church only a few years removed from this type of homeschooling group that didn’t trust others to teach their children & the results were devastating to them. So, some do take a passage like Deuteronomy 6 and apply it to all circumstances.

    The bigger problem that I have an issue with is the rationale that some people use for homeschooling. Looking at the numbers of kids that allegedly “fall away” from the faith as the sole reason for homeschooling is wrong. First, it belies one’s weak view of God’s sovereignty. Second, it puts salvation totally in the hands of man (i.e. we have to use manipulative techniques to keep our kids saved). Third, true salvation is not gained and then lost. Fourth, …… I had better stop!

    What I always wonder about those that home school only out of fear: What is your understanding of God?
    Daniel was ordained by God to fulfill a role that was vital for Israel. Yet, part of that plan was to be educated in a Babylonian school (where he would have been told about Babylonian gods). Did Daniel waver in his trust in YHWH? Obviously not!

    Bottom line, Seek God’s wisdom in what you are to do with your children. One size fits all for education is not mandated in the Scriptures. However, Parents roles in their children’s spiritual formation is most definitely commanded.

47. on 13 Feb 2008 at 12:19 pm   Jeanette

    Soli Deo Gloria.
    I have to agree with Mark (6:56am) that although I would not say that the scriptures mandate that we homeschool, which we do, the totality of the scriptures would conclude that we are to train up our children in the fear and admonition of the Lord 24/7. As far as the 3-R’s, homeschool or Christian education should be the only choice. God is not welcome in government schools,not to mention the indoctrination of Evolution/Homosexuality/moral relativism. To send our children to “Caesar” to be educated, should never be acceptable. (I will continue to pray those single parents out there and have offered child care/curriculum etc. to those in need) Those who MUST put their children in public school have a much tougher job ahead of them.

    If we send our children to the enemy to be educated, don’t be suprised when the come home wearing the enemies uniform!

48. on 13 Feb 2008 at 12:42 pm   Jesse Johnson

    Buddy and Grace,

    The NT does give prohibitions against murder, adultery, withholding wages, stealing, lying. If you want verses on any of these, let me know and I’ll get them for you.

    Nate’s point, which I think is being missed by many people, is not that Deut. 6 should not be in the Bible. He is not suggesting to do away with Psalms or Proverbs, because he is not suggesting on doing away with Deuteronomy. His point is that it is in the Bible to show what God commanded Israel to do. In the same way he commanded them to keep the feasts, to not shave the corners of their beard, to not wear clothes with mixed material, etc. In this particular passage, he not only commands parents to train up their children, but write the Law on their doorposts. Nate’s point is why do one, and think that skipping it is tantamount to not having the book in your Bible, but then skip other ones.

    Again, no one is saying Deuteronomy is not in the Bible. Nate is saying that the Law is not binding on Christians. He is granting a hypothetical point. Even if Deut 6 did mandate home schooling (which it does not), then it still does not follow that it is binding on Christians.

    Thanks,

    Jesse

49. on 13 Feb 2008 at 12:43 pm   Hayden

    Steve,

    Well said. Balanced and very pastoral. Keep teaching the Word my brother.

50. on 13 Feb 2008 at 12:46 pm   Bill

    Gabriel said:
    “The reality is that schools are getting worse in their indoctrination, but God is not getting any weaker. He is able to sustain true believers and enable them to be salt and light around them.”

    Amen, Gabriel. Spoken like a true ‘messenger’.

    Let’s not forget, brothers and sisters, the true Church, the Bride of Christ, the body of Christ, has never nor will ever LOSE ONE SINGLE MEMBER. Jesus Himself assures us of this in John 10:28-29
    “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”

    So, to say that the church is losing 80% (or any percent for that matter) of its members is completely false. It simply shows the depth of the apostasty in our day that is producing false believers. True believers will always endure under any and all circumstances - even in the fiery pits of the public school system!

    Our world (of which the PSS is a part of) will continue to get worse and worse but our God is still on the throne!

    God bless.
    Bill

51. on 13 Feb 2008 at 12:46 pm   Ginny

    Hayden: In response to your question about whether we send our children to Sunday School or Youth Ministries…the answer is no. It would be very difficult to oversee their spiritual training if we did not even know what they were being taught. We keep our children (baby to teenager) with us in church and it’s WONDERFUL! The church, in my opinion, has taken the world’s view of professionalism and the welfare system, instead of individual responsibility. If the Sunday School teacher is leading my child every Sunday in learning the Scriptures, does that negate the responsibility of my husband to teach them? No, but it sure deceives many a man into thinking his job is done. But, you argue, what if a man doesn’t train his children? Then hold his feet to the fire, brothers! If I’m not fulfilling my job as a wife to my husband, should they have a class for that as well, where another woman can fill in the gaps? How absurd! And isn’t it quite easy to look spiritual and pious in the pew, while the nursery worker is pulling out her hair because of your lack of training and your little guy is being a tyrant in Children’s Church? So, in conclusion, yes, we are being consistent in our child training beliefs.

52. on 13 Feb 2008 at 12:55 pm   Jesse Johnson

    Buddy and Grace,

    You had said that the NT does not prohibit murder, sexual sins, withholding wages, withholding pay form ministers, lying and stealing. Here are some verses to consider, as I hope to convince you that the NT does indeed prohibit them:

    Murder: Rom 13:9, Mat 5:21; Mat 15:19
    Lying: Mat 5:19, Col 3:9, John 8:44, Rev 21:8
    Stealing: Mark 10:19, Rom 13:9 1 Cor 6:10, Eph 4:28
    Withholding wages James 5:4
    Sexual sins: Heb 13:4, Rev. 21:8, 1 Tim. 1:10, Eph 5:5, 1 Cor 6:8
    Not paying ministers: 1 Tim 5:17, 18

    Thanks,

    Jesse

53. on 13 Feb 2008 at 12:55 pm   Pastor Steve from AZ

    Buddy Hanson seems to be a bit confused (sarcasm dripping)! No gray letters?! Are you kidding me?! He is one of the wacko sterotypes that has needlessly quieted evangelical Christian’s voice in America!

    I appreciate many of you who have taken the time to humbly consider this issue for the glory of Christ. I am yet to make a decision on this vital area of my children’s education…blessings to all who are willing to cut straight the Word of God.

    Thanks to Shepherds’ Fellowship and all who give leadership to this outstanding ministry of discernment and encouragement.

54. on 13 Feb 2008 at 12:56 pm   Bill

    Oh…and Steve, great post!
    I didn’t read your post before submitting mine but your’s is right on.

    Bill

55. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:11 pm   Daniel Chaney

    Hayden,

    You said, “Also, all of these statistics are silly. C’mon, we know how statistics can be framed in many ways. (Think politics here) How come we are so sure of statistics that support our point but skeptical of others?”

    You defeated your own point with your own question.

56. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:12 pm   Daniel Chaney

    Zach P.,

    You said, “I would still insist that it being a top reason has more to do with the way that so many public schooling parents have neglected to meaningfully, skillfully and biblically interact with their children over the material they are being taught in their classrooms,”

    Why would you send your child to receive training that would have to be dealt with? Why?

57. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:18 pm   Daniel Chaney

    Pastor Steve,

    You said, “First, it belies one’s weak view of God’s sovereignty. Second, it puts salvation totally in the hands of man (i.e. we have to use manipulative techniques to keep our kids saved). Third, true salvation is not gained and then lost. Fourth, …… I had better stop!

    Why stop? You have not reached a legitamate argument yet. First, this view does not show a weak view of God’s sovereignty. Your argument is like saying, “Well, I can go ahead and put myself into a position of temptation, because if I am saved, I won’t fall into it anyway.” You can see the problem with this argument. Second, salvation is never in the hands of man. We do not have to use manipulative techniques to keep our kids saved, but we must preserve their purity and protect them from the influence of the world at all costs. Third, I agree, salvation cannot be lost. If a child leaves the faith because of the influences at a public school, this shows that he was never saved. Fourth, Christians had all better stop subjecting their children to worldly influences.

58. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:19 pm   Christi

    I must say that “not trusting anyone else to teach their children” and being wise and discerning in who they allow to instruct and teach their children is not the same thing.

59. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:25 pm   Daniel Chaney

    Jesse Johnson,

    Are you saying that if a command is not restated in the New Testament, then it is not binding on Christians today? What about God’s command to be fruitful and multiply?

60. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:27 pm   Earl

    Haven’t looked at all the statistics sites, but one was rather questionable. http://www.nheri.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=171&Itemid=47 does a poor job of statistics sampling when they compare the general US population with homeschoolers. Think about it - the general US population has a high percentage of non-Christians while the homeschool population has a high percentage of Christians. I would certainly expect to see differences in these two groups. How about taking Homeschool evangelicals and public school evangelicals and see what the numbers look like?

    I’ll check others as time permits…but, so far, the numbers don’t prove anything -

61. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:35 pm   J Thomas

    Greetings, maybe your article should read “Home schooling instead of secular school”. In light of the disturbing facts concerning secular school and its obvious agenda how can we as Christians possibly make any other choice. If we examine all of the Biblical text carefully the answer should be obvious. More importantly, what is our motive for sending our children to secular school? Personally, I have listened to many but none that truly honor God. Such as, we don’t have the time, we can’t afford it, we would have to change our life style, we like having two incomes, our children don’t want to be chastised, I have a career I’m involved with, we don’t think public school is that bad, etc. These however are not reasons but excuses! Moreover, all these answers revolve primarily around the desires of the” self” and worldliness. Having children is part of the Biblical mandate to be fruitful and multiply (Gen 1:28, 9:1) raising our children is a commandment from God and how we raise them is of eternal significance (Gen 18:19: Deut 4:9-10,6; 2-6, 8-12,17:9,32-46; Joshua 1:8; Psalm 19:7,78:4-6;Isaiah 28:9; Ezek 44:23; Ephesians 4:29, 6:4; 1Peter 3:15). Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it (Prov 22:6). What will the rule of life for our children be, how will they keep the way of the Lord to do righteousness and justice, how will they grow in stature and favor with God, how will they hear and learn to fear God, and who will teach them knowledge? Will this be accomplished from a two hour visit at church ever Sunday? Let us not drift along in ignorance and complacency like the unsaved masses of heathen, who do not love God, who are against us, who are of the world. We are involved in spiritual warfare, nothing less and when we send our children into the world they must be prepared. So then how can they be prepared “if foolishness is bound up in the heart of child” (Proverbs 22:15). Secular schools teach the broad way that leads to destruction, not the way and truth of Jesus Christ and has become Satan’s initial platform for his Gospel and subsequent indoctrination into His deception whether realizing it or not. Do not be deceived “Evil company corrupts good habits” (1Cor 15:33). Do you think that an environment the fosters religious tolerance, safe sex practices for children, the evolution theory, responsible drug and alcohol use, the pursuit of worldly achievement, self-esteem instead of self denial, who deny the Triune God of the Universe in favor of eastern philosophy (which has become a primary practice in the public school system), more importantly educators who are not Christian teaching your children what they perceive as truth? Do you think this healthy for our children in any way? Christ clearly teaches us that “He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad”. As Christians, we are called to advance the Kingdom of God not that which opposes it and whoever does not assist in this duty is set against God and His Kingdom. Even a child is known by his deeds, whether what he does is pure and right (Prov 20:11). How will a child do what is pure and right if the majority of his or her erudition is spent in an environment whose primary mission is to teach that which is not only contrary and false but also antagonistic towards sound biblical doctrine. It is easier to be dragged down than it is to be raised up. Jesus said that whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea (Mark 9:42). Jesus is here speaking about responsibility so; acting against the interests of the child brings a severe punishment. In Matthew 18:6 Jesus speaks of one who makes one of these little ones . . . to sin. The verb with its idea of entrapment indicates that the person in question is leading the little one into something that that little one does not properly understand. In the parallel verse (NKJV) to sin, is translated to stumble. The OT meaning of “stumble” is not the same as that of the NT. In the OT, to stumble is to fail or to be ruined. But it may be that Jer 18:15, which pictures people stumbling in the path that God’s Word marks out, provides the OT model for the NT use, where “stumble” is associated with falling into sin (as in Ro 14:20; Jas 3:2). Jesus tells us to “take heed that no one deceives you” (Matt 24:4). God’s word tells us that the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God (1Cor 3:19), therefore forsake foolishness and live, and go in the way of understanding (Proverbs 9:6). If the public school system teaches foolishness and worse and we know that if we mingle with the gentiles we will learn their works (Psalm 106:35) how can we who profess to love God with all of out heart, soul, and mind be so careless to think otherwise? Why would we thoughtlessly place our children, who are without understanding, who are spiritually immature, whose Godly amour has not yet been tempered for attack and warfare be sent out into such a hostile territory? Secular school is the pond in which the denial and ignorance of God is cultivated, a breeding ground for whoever enters in to learn the ways of unrighteousness and unfaithfulness. God’s word commands us to be separate from this world and to not touch what is unclean (Ex 33:16; 2Cor 6:17)! How can we be separate from the world when we willingly and blindly embrace all that it teaches which as a matter of course begins in the school system? Home schooling allows us to raise our children in the truth of Gods word and to prepare them for the field, which is the world! The Bible does not make any specific instruction towards home schooling, however, public school as it exists now was not part of the historical culture in which the Bible originated and it was the duty of the parents to supply everything necessary for their children’s benefit, admonition, correction, and walk through life.

    Christian Apologist and Home School Advocate.

62. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:35 pm   Pastor Steve

    Daniel,
    I can value your concern to not place your children into a position of temptation but I have to respectfully disagree with your characterization of my argument. You are creating a strawman argument by making the argument about temptation and not salvation. I think that sometimes in one’s zeal for their conviction about an area of Christian liberty, they condemn anyone else’s different decision. If you really feel that this is an area of temptation for placing your children, then I can respect that choice. However, you don’t have the weight of Scripture to say that one can’t be a good Christian parent if they have their kids attend public school.

    Here is a question to contemplate. Would Jesus guidance and concerns for His disciples be the same as a Father for his children?

    If, for the sake of argument, the answer is yes, then why would Jesus allow His disciples to interact with these tax collectors that were dishonest and not a part of the synagogue?

    If you are going to train up your children in the Lord, then sharing the Gospel is a major part of one’s walk with the Lord. You cannot be totally isolated from a worldly influence if you are around unbelievers.

63. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:48 pm   Belinda

    My heart burns though for the church to stand up and give some clear and encouraging teaching to families on how to disciple their family in this day and age. It is hard in this culture of busy busy busy to find the time to spend instructing your children in the Lord, in establishing a Christian world view in their hearts. The church should have answers for parents, should be encouraging them to step outside of cultural norms to establish these things in their family (and I’m not talking that the church should encourage homeschooling – the church should encourage disciple-making even within families). What I see is a church who provides programmes for parents rather than encouraging a lifestyle of discipleship outside of “education” choices.

    Now there may well be churches out there doing this but from the literature I read, the churches that my friends attend this is rarely being addressed.

    Belinda

64. on 13 Feb 2008 at 1:51 pm   L.S.

    I think that the phrase “leave the faith” has been used in ambiguous ways here and elsewhere when discussing this topic. Many saved children do leave the church and lead lives that are less than God honoring for a season. I think that our culture is now such that we cannot have our kids in public schools and raise them in the nurture and admonition of the world at the same time. I know that some will disagree and I don’t mean that no student can ever emerge from public schools and continue to live a wholesome chrisitan life. I think Deut. 6 must be considered relevant to us today. Should we not teach God’s law “dilligently to our children.” Should we not talk of His statutes “when we sit in our house, walk by the way, lie down, and rise up”? I believe these things are commands that apply to us and that they are very near impossible to satisfy while our children are being educated in humanism for most of the day. They will come home late in the afternoon or early evening, have somewhere between 1-3 (or more)hours of homework, need supper, and a shower. If we are very dilligent, we might be able to muster a few minutes of scripture teaching at home each evening to combat the 6-8 hours of the worlds system that they soaked in earlier in the day.

65. on 13 Feb 2008 at 2:00 pm   Nancy

    Kevin:

    Statement: Christian schools started on the premise of removing our children from the ungodly influences of the public schools.

    Comment: Not all Christian schools were started in “reaction” to the public school system. Many were started (and are celebrating 150 - 175 years of ministry) for the express purpose of helping young people learn in an atmosphere where God was honored, parents and their authority over their children was respected and the home, church and school all worked in cooperation for the education of the next generation of godly leaders.

66. on 13 Feb 2008 at 2:16 pm   Kristin

    Brothers and sisters, I’m discouraged. Here we are, plain and simple, defending a public school system that forbids the mere mention of our Lord. Why, as Daniel C. so poignantly asks, would we send our children to receive training that then has to be “dealt with” in the first place?

    Yes, parents are desperately needed to step up and fulfill their God-given role, wherever their kids do school. But if that involves perpetual de-programming from atheistic worldview saturation, doesn’t that suggest a problem?

    Yes, God is sovereign. No, he doesn’t need our help. I’m pretty sure that doesn’t mean we should just sit back and watch Him take our mistakes and work all things together for good. (And what if the “He doesn’t need our help” argument is applied to the “But our children need to be out there, being salt and light” argument, too?)

    Yes, those choosing to homeschool need to examine their motivation. But I have yet to meet a homeschooler who talks much about “fear”. I do hear a lot about “joy” (and nitty-gritty hard work).

    Those defending the public school choice need to honestly examine their motivation, too. Why is it that I support a system notorious for lackluster (if not just plan dismal) academic results, one that by and large despises (or at least make illegal) the mention of God, considers it natural “socialization” to take ever-younger children from their families and place them with a group of their peers for the best part of the day? Is it really because we want our kids to be salt and light? Really and truly?

    Might it have something to do with convenience? The fact that it’s paid for already? Lifestyle preference? Varsity sports? Because it’s the only thing I really know—it’s how I did school? Because my kids are already part of the system; I can’t imagine how they’d react if I pulled them out now?

    I’m not accusing—we get enough of that from the Accuser. I just earnestly believe we need to be honest with ourselves and take time for quiet self-examination. Perhaps we will experience conviction.

    K

67. on 13 Feb 2008 at 2:30 pm   E. Ray Moore, Jr., Th.M.

    Brethren:
    Many have discussed the theological or Biblical case for K-12 Christian education or home schooling vs. public schooling. It appears that the Scripture is clear and explicit. Also some have presented data or their experiences for the necessity of one of the K-12 Christian education models over public schooling.
    There is also a case that can be made from history too, especially US history. For the first 200 years of US history from the Puritans arrival, private Christian or community schools, home schooling, dame schools was almost universal in the USA. We birthed America on back of Christian education and home schooling. In the 1830-1840 period Horace Mann, an anti-Calvinist Unitarian, was able to implement the first state-controlled public schools in Boston, then through all of Mass, later this alien model grew through New England and Mid-Atlantic states. Horace Mann had visited Germany earlier and been impressed by the highly regimented “statist” Prussian model which he brought back to the USA. Many of the founders of state-run public schools of that same era wrote also how such a new educational system would help overcome the Christian mind and worldview of the American people. John Dewey and his disciples followed and completed the harm begun by Horace Mann and the Unitarian founders of public schooling. The churches gradually gave up their private church-run and Christian schools over the next decades until by end of 19th century the transition to state-sponsored or K-12 government schools was nearly complete in USA. Catholics, Dutch Reformed and some Lutheran groups maintained their parochial schools, but most evangelicals opted for public schools. In some communities the public school system was benign or Christ-friendly, but never fully Christian in both practice and precept…then starting in 1947 with the Everson Case we have had 10 US Supreme Court cases legally defining the public schools as “godless and pagan.” This is a short and simplistic version of rise of state-run public schools, but this history can not be refuted, just as the theological case is clear cut too. If the Bible, research and stories on blessings from K-12 Christian education can’t convince you, try out the historical argument on the Unitarian origins and founders of state-run public schools. If the founding of any system is bad, the fruit will be bad too. Bad seed, bad fruit. Thanks (E. Ray Moore, Jr, Th.M.)

68. on 13 Feb 2008 at 2:35 pm   Zach P.

    Dear Daniel,
    You asked, “Why would you send your child to receive training that would have to be dealt with? Why?”

    I didn’t say this. I made no statements about what I have chosen or will choose to do regarding the education of my children. I simply said that I believe the reason that secular humanistic education has taken such a hold in the church is more due to the fact that far too many “Christian” parents have neglected to interact with their publicly schooled children over the material they are taught in their classrooms, than it is to the fact that many “Christian” children sit in those classrooms.

    I don’t see how this can really be debated. If more parents over the course of the past 150 years had taken the call to “constantly and consistently disciple their children throughout the normal activities of life” seriously, I believe wholeheartedly that the statistics would look quite different, as would our country, and this very discussion.

69. on 13 Feb 2008 at 2:36 pm   John

    Recognizing that government schools preach the government’s social agenda, and recognizing that this is inconsistent at many points with Christ’s Kingdom, my wife and I chose over twenty years ago to enroll our children in our church’s then just-beginning Christian school. We believed, and continue to do so, that the Christian’s choice for his child’s education comes down to private Christian school, or homeshool.

    Take it from me, it’s costly to do this. We’ve been paying both property tax to support government schools and tuition for private Christian education since 1985. Our third and last child is now a high school junior with only one more year in our church’s school. That’s a lot of tuition that might have been spent on other things.

    How did we do this? We found many ways to fund this effort. We haven’t bought a brand-new car since 1972. We decorated our home on the installment plan, adding furniture and finishes over time, rather than having an instantly beautiful home, with corresponding debt, in many cases. I buy almost everything we need online, often used, but serviceable. I have a moonlight business, which supplements our income. It’s a walk of faith, this Christian life, and we’ve found God faithful.

    How have our children turned out, coming from this cloistered atmosphere? We encouraged our children to participate in athletics, where they faced teams from non-Christian schools. We had then apply for, and each of them was accepted by, Tennessee’s Governor’s Schools, where they were outnumbered overwhelmingly by non-Christian students. They have been involved in swimming, football, basketball, baseball, track, piano, saxophone, Scouts, plays, and I’ve been to more events than I could ever count.

    How have they turned out? Both daughters were National Merit Scholars, and received full academic scholarships to a state university. Both went on to graduate school. Both are happily married to Christian men. Daughter no. 1 is a Resident M.D. at a local hospital, as is her husband. Daughter no. 2, whose husband is in medical school, is an engineer with an MBA. All four are active in church and mission activities, including foreign missions. Our son is following in his sisters’ footsteps, active in lots of areas, including mission work in the summer.

    Doing things the Lord’s way is always the best way. The only Bible the early Christians had was the Old Testament, so I doubt that they tried to explain away any of its admonitions, such as Deuteronomy 6. Give your children a step up toward the future by taking them out of government school. They’re in the training period of their lives, not the evangelism period. They’re not ready to be salt and light. Prepare them for that role by making sure they’re getting the input that will sustain them through life.

70. on 13 Feb 2008 at 2:41 pm   Pastor Steve

    A few final thoughts from me on this discussion:

    As a Father, I have children in an elementary school in the midwest. We have not felt a need to consider other alternative methods for educating our children. (a word of caution for those who characterize everyone that has their children in school - you don’t know the school, or our kids)

    Do we agree with everything that is being taught? NO
    However, my wife and I understand clearly what is occuring in the school and we are very much in dialogue with their teachers. As the kids interact with the philosophy of the world (which will happen at some point in time unless your kids stay at home until they are 50), we talk about where it comes from & what the Bible has to say about the subject. My second grade daughter caught on that the celebration about Christmas wasn’t focused on Jesus. When she got back to School after break, she wrote down John 3:16 on a piece of paper (without us suggesting it) to give to her teacher and a little girl of hindu beliefs.

    One other thought, I see a lot of vitriol from those that are home school only in their beliefs. You really need to tone it down if you want a discussion of the subject.
    What I find rather interesting is that there are a few folks that have commented in this forum that know their Hebrew and Greek Bibles well (OT & NT) but are being graciously. I suspect they could put many to shame if they so chose.

    Again, bottom line …
    It is your Christian liberty for education as you are guided by the Holy Spirit through God’s Word!

71. on 13 Feb 2008 at 2:48 pm   Bill

    @kristin
    “I’m not accusing—we get enough of that from the Accuser. I just earnestly believe we need to be honest with ourselves and take time for quiet self-examination. Perhaps we will experience conviction.”

    Very well put.

    I think there are some in this thread that believe all public schools are the same. They think Gov. Arnold is running all 50 states instead of just California!

    I have several Christian friends that are school teachers in our county’s school system. Granted, there is surely an ugly trend in different PSS across the country regarding what is being taught and we, as Christians and parents, need to be watchful of these and be ready to stand and fight if necessary. But this is just as true regarding an equal number of ‘churches’ across our country as it is public schools. Discernment is a 24/7 responsibility for a Christian.

    Having said that, can we please dispense with the ‘better-Christian-than-thou’ spirit that I feel coming from those whose conscience has directed them to do differently than others?

    God bless.
    Bill

72. on 13 Feb 2008 at 2:53 pm   KC

    Did I miss something here!
    Where is God in all of these opinions?
    Is He not sovereign?
    Does He not do the selecting? No matter where you go to school, right!
    Is your child going to hell because he/she wasn’t home schooled?
    Is your child going to heaven because he/she was home schooled?
    If a person was intended to be a believer then they will be no matter what!!

73. on 13 Feb 2008 at 2:57 pm   Mike

    I would like to respond to this comment:

    “First of all, I am a Youth Minister in Oklahoma. We have a home school group that meets in our family life center once a week and we support them in that. We also have many families that home school. We support them in their decision to do so.

    The biggest problem I see in homeschooling as the only alternative to teaching is that we often want to overlook the mandate given to us in Matthew 28 which tells us to go into all the world and share the Good News of Jesus with the whole world and to disciple them in that way. If all Christians are called to homeschool and we only spend time in those circles with other Christians, how will we ever do as commanded and win others?

    In order to win the non-believer we must spend time with them and artound them, and that does include schooling. Many an opportunity has been found for our family to reach out to students and families in my childrens’ classes becaus of their attendance in a public school.”

    Pastor, i am a senior pastor also, and my question to you is, “why do you feel believe evangelism only takes place outside the family?” You speak as if the millions of “Christian” youth who are leaving the church at a rate that ought to make everyone’s head spin, or at least ask why they are all leaving, don’t need evangelizing.

    Tell me, what would you call people who don’t believe in God, don’t attend church, live an a-moral lifestyle, and believe that truth is relative? Why you would call them the world right? Well the sad statistics are that 80% of the youth that you are currently pastoring will become just that. Why? Mainly because somebody has hired you to do what dad and mom should be doing. The authority structure that God gave to children (fathers and mothers) is being usurped by “youth pastors”, and the resultant mass exodus of “Christian” youth from the church ought to cause us to at least ask, “what in the world is going on here?”

    The greatest mission field we have is the children in our home. We should go to them and evangelize daily, and build character into them, until we see they are truly committed Christians. Otherwise we will continue to watch the exodus happen, this time all by itself, with no Moses needed. The kids simply leave.

    Dad and Mom,if you want your child to be one of the 80% that leave then just keep sending them to the godless, atheistic, pagan educators, using the excuse, “I want little Johnny to be a light to the world”, just keep sending them to youth groups where “play” and “fun” are the keywords, and since you have turned over your responsibility to everyone else, don’t at all be surprised when your “little Johnny” completely leaves the faith that he was never in.

    It’s time something changes. The fruit of “Christian” youth has been horrible for years. Let’s try to educate parents that the training of the their children is their responsibility and encourage them to stop passing their responsibility off to schools and youth pastors.

74. on 13 Feb 2008 at 3:05 pm   Ray B.

    Again , just an observation about how this issue is so big and so many posts and so very little concerning the series on doctrine. If we were truly people of the Book our children would be raised in the Lord if you homeschool or you do not.

75. on 13 Feb 2008 at 3:05 pm   Scott T.

    I have some questions:

    1. Could someone please define a “child” for the sake of this discussion?

    2. At what age *is* it “biblical” to send children out into the world?

    3. When does the child’s learning cease to be primarily the parent’s responsibility?

    4. Did God really have in mind 21st century American schools when He moved on Moses to pen Deut. 6?

76. on 13 Feb 2008 at 3:24 pm   Christi

    Pastor Steve posed the following question to Daniel in an above post:

    “Here is a question to contemplate. Would Jesus guidance and concerns for His disciples be the same as a Father for his children?

    If, for the sake of argument, the answer is yes, then why would Jesus allow His disciples to interact with these tax collectors that were dishonest and not a part of the synagogue?

    If you are going to train up your children in the Lord, then sharing the Gospel is a major part of one’s walk with the Lord. You cannot be totally isolated from a worldly influence if you are around unbelievers.”

    If we are to look at Jesus’ guidance we will notice that He did not send off His disciples to the Jewish synagogues or Roman schools to be trained and discipled, but rather He trained and discipled them as He interacted with them through daily life. He walked and talked with them. They interacted with the tax collectors just as Jesus did because they were with Jesus and under His training.

    I agree that sharing the gospel is a major part of one’s walk with the Lord and if I am doing that in my life and I am interacting with my children and including them in my life, then they will be learning first hand from me the mandate of sharing the gospel, because they will be with me and involved with me as I do it. Just as Jesus’ disciples were with Him.

    This is not isolating my children, but discipling them as Jesus did His disciples.

77. on 13 Feb 2008 at 3:26 pm   Brian Culver

    I home schooled my son for about three years. I adopted him and prior to adopting him he was in the fourth grade. His mom had not sent him to any school at all. He was just laying around his house doing nothing. I suggested to her that I home school him so he would not fall behind the other kids. He was flunking 3rd grade when I met him. I bought the books (Alpha and Omega) and found out he was actually quite a bright kid. By the time the year was out, he was doing 6th grade level work. All the while, we would go out on mission trips such as feeding the homeless, going to the mission home, working with habitat for humanity. We were able to spend some quality time together. He is now 24 years old and loves God with all his heart! He is a blessing to me. I ended up putting him back into the school system so that he could interact with other kids his age. He was a social butterfly. He relates well with people regardless of their age, sex or race. I would support anyone who wants to homeschool and I also support anyone who wants to go to private or public school. So long as the parents are involved in the life of the child!

78. on 13 Feb 2008 at 5:21 pm   Mike

    KC,

    I was right there with ya about 50 comments ago. And, btw, there are two Mike’s here. The one who commented after KC is a different one.

79. on 13 Feb 2008 at 6:41 pm   Yipeng

    Scott,

    Please allow me to suggest the following:

    When does a son or daughter cease to be a child of a parent? Until the point of death, they have a parent-child relationship ordained by God.

    It does appear to be the responsibility of the parent to “bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord” and the responsibility of the child to “honor your father and mother” all the days of their life on earth.

    Advocates of “Home Schooling Only” for young children as a biblical mandate will also have to consider:

    a) Is it biblical to allow a child to leave your household to pursue his future studies overseas?
    b) Is it biblical to allow a grown up child to move out before marriage or even at all?
    c) Does the distance between parent and child or time spent between parent and child matter? How much is sufficient? Why that amount?

    If we have the intention to allow children to move out and start their own families, or the pursue education after we are no longer able to educate them ourselves, we must do so while finding a way to fulfill our earthly responsibility as parents. We must likewise consider home schooling to be a means of following a biblical guideline rather than absolute mandate.

    Deu 6 was written for the Israelites and not today’s believers. Heb 11-14 clearly states that we are not bound by the Mosaic Law. However, the Old Testament IS God’s truth and there are eternal principles behind the law that we can consider in making our decisions today.

    I have found Chris Wrights work on Old Testament ethics to be most insightful:
    http://www.jubilee-centre.org/online_documents/OldTestamentEthics.htm

    Cheers

80. on 13 Feb 2008 at 7:02 pm   David d

    This is good stuff! Christians talking and there is some intense fellowship going on. There are appears to be some who still did not get the jist of the links that were posted like:

    1. Earl- “does a poor job of statistics sampling when they compare the general US population with homeschoolers. Think about it - the general US population has a high percentage of non-Christians while the homeschool population has a high percentage of Christians.”

    -My reply- read the research for your self, buy the book, check it out at your local library, find out the facts. Dr. Brian Ray answers the skeptics questions.
    http://www.nheri.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=172&Itemid=48

    Keep in mind Earl, the general pop. are Public School kids (55 million plus). If you want another site that reports the fantastic results of the children whose parents have chosen to homeschool:
    http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2001033

    2. Hayden- “Not one of the links that you provided gave the 80% falling away being solely because of public schooling.”

    - My reply- Let me help you out here Hayden. The first link (pdf) is the most telling. The research done by Dan Smithwick and the Nehemiah Institute is very thorough, and his interviewees that represent the Public School kids were/are teens who were actively involved in church youth groups. These are PUBLIC SCHOOL EDUCATED CHURCH-GOING kids. Yik