One Month Ago Today
January 23rd, 2008
One month ago today, on December 23, Joel Osteen appeared on Fox News Sunday with Chris Wallace. Many of you will remember hearing about this…. If not, here is the most shocking part of the interview.
(The full transcript can be read here. Or you can watch the YouTube version here.)
* * * *
[Begin Quote]
WALLACE: And what about Mitt Romney? And I’ve got to ask you the question, because it is a question whether it should be or not in this campaign, is a Mormon a true Christian?
OSTEEN: Well, in my mind they are. Mitt Romney has said that he believes in Christ as his savior, and that’s what I believe, so, you know, I’m not the one to judge the little details of it. So I believe they are.
And so, you know, Mitt Romney seems like a man of character and integrity to me, and I don’t think he would — anything would stop me from voting for him if that’s what I felt like.
WALLACE: So, for instance, when people start talking about Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, and the golden tablets in upstate New York, and God assumes the shape of a man, do you not get hung up in those theological issues?
OSTEEN: I probably don’t get hung up in them because I haven’t really studied them or thought about them. And you know, I just try to let God be the judge of that. I mean, I don’t know.
I certainly can’t say that I agree with everything that I’ve heard about it, but from what I’ve heard from Mitt, when he says that Christ is his savior, to me that’s a common bond.
[End Quote]
* * * *
What a sad commentary that is on the level of discernement in broader evangelical circles.
For a much more biblical (read: non-heretical) perspective on Mormonism, and its relationship to true Christianity, see here or here.
I watched the Mormon Tabernacle Choir this Christmas sing the great hymns, and Handel’s Messiah, and read the Scriptures from Luke. It was magnificient! Gave me goosebumps really.
This is how Satan comes. The Mormons and LDS’s are those of whom the Lord said: “For their shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very Elect.” Matt. 24:24
Joel Osteen is an empty cloud. He speaks soft words with big smiles. He flatters and leaves truth for others to speak. What a sad thing indeed.
I listened to him the other night. He takes a verse where Paul speaks of his affliction as being light, and he goes on to teach that we need not have burdens in this life, for God loves us too much to let us be afflicted.
He never mentions what these light afflictions were: being beaten with rods, flogged 5 times by the Jews, stoned to near death, shipwrecked, and on and on.
This teacher is a false teacher, and his messages are worthless. I pray he would repent of not speaking the truth in love, and step aside.
The Lord says be not many teachers, for great is their condemnation.
Thanks for keeping these things fresh and out before the Body of Christ. Perhaps one day the Church will awaken to see the truth of the Gospel, and to the true Christ our King.
Has Pasor John, or other more orthodox evangelical ministers attempted to call Mr. Osteen to repent of his heresy? It is one thing to blog about it, it is another to confront the man, such as Paul had to do Peter and try to win him over.
I pray that, by God’s grace, Osteen, with his tremendous influence, might be won over by the help of godly men for the kingdom and glory of God. I for one would love to see a fruitful exchange take place between Mr. Osteen and someone like Pastor John, Phil Johnson or even James White. Hopefully one day that can take place.
I personally am in favor of “discernment” blogs and/or “discernment” posts.
Yet it has recently come to my attention that there is a lot of anger and resentment within a certain segment of the Christian community towards “discernment” blogs, essays, articles, books, and, of course, their authors.
Let’s face it. There are Christians who are vehemently opposed to “discerning” Christians. The price and cost of discernment is to be called names, epithets, and labels. You know the drill. Legalist, pharisee, harsh, judgmental, divisive, unloving, un-Christlike, intolerant, exclusive, mean tone, hard-hearted, etc….
Don’t get me wrong. Discernment is needed with respect to Mormonism and to some/many of the things that Pastor Osteen says, but there is a price to pay. And many people are either unaware of the price, or they shy away from making a discernment because of the price.
Pax.
I’ve heard similar questions about the need to speak with someone personally about their wayward theology. Often it is asserted that these men ought to be privately spoken to before going public with criticism. David, I don’t know where you’re coming from on this. I assume you’re just wondering if any prominent man has attempted to witness to Osteen?
Let me just lay out some general thoughts.
Once a man like Osteen goes public with his views, he is fair game for public reproof. Osteen has sold millions of books promulgating his heresies. He promotes his damning brand of universalism every week to millions of TV viewers. Public heresy demands public refutation, especially if it is pointing people to the broad road that leads to destruction.
In other words, I don’t think Osteen’s public sin qualifies him for private rebuke (ala Matthew 18). Nor is Osteen in the same category as Peter. In fact, Paul publicly rebuked Peter.
I think this goes for any of the more prominent pastors and relgious figures. Many of them bristle at any criticism they receive and like to claim
Now, MacArthur has said that he himself is also fair game for criticism because of the public nature of his ministry. And John receives plenty or criticism. He also has an elder Board that holds him accountable. Makes me wonder where the leaders are in Osteen’s church.
I can tell you with certainty that John would take any opportunity to appear on the same program with Osteen. Perhaps Larry King can set this up. I’d be willing to bet that Osteen would avoid that like the plague. The last thing he wants is to be exposed by someone who actually understand orthodox Christian theology.
Osteen has already been exposed by Larry King (of all people), who seems to know the gospel better than Osteen himself. Also on 60 Minutes, Osteen was utterly discredited..except in his own mind.
Steven,
Thanks for your reply. You seem to juxtapose speaking out publically against someone’s teaching and going to them privately to rebuke them or to witness.
My contention would be, why not do both? The position with the greatest strength, as I see it, would be to publically denounce his heresy, while ALSO trying to reach him personally.
Steven you ask, “I assume you’re just wondering if any prominent man has attempted to witness to Osteen?”
Yes, I am. We are right to criticize his public ministry publically. That’s not really the issue. The issue, to me, is one of trying to win Osteen over for Christ. This won’t be done simply by speaking out against him in public. This type of ministry is only going to be accomplished through someone, probably another prominent minister, like Pastor John, reaching out to Osteen with the love and grace of the Gospel.
So that, in the end, Pastor John would not merely be justly defending the faith against a false teacher, but trying to win that false teacher over for Christ!
Thank you for this information.
Allow me to add something as well. I’m not trying to suggest we have to go to someone first, before we set out to fight false teaching. It has simply been my experience that when I have gone to a brother in the right spirit and reasoned with him about some manner of teaching, doctrine or practice, I have been met with relative success (on a scale much lower than an Osteen, of course!).
I heartily believe though, if I was in a position to do so, my conscience would be clearer if I had tried to reach Mr. Osteen with the Gospel, than to never have tried at all.
Blessings,
David R. McCrory
Is anyone really surprised by this? I have read transcripts from a Larry King appearance in which Osteen makes similar statements. Unfortunately, many Christians take a “hear no evil, see no evil” approach with well known (TV) preachers. Sad. Thanks for featuring the quote.
There is a graduate of the Master’s Seminary who pastors a large conservative church close to Osteen’s church. He has tried to meet with him to pesonally bring these kind of concerns to him. Osteen’s response was he has people who already speak truth to him.
Well we know Osteen discernment is, well none. But despite Mr. Romney theology, I am hard pressed to find a better candidate in this race for President.
As an evangelical I have caught a lot of flack over my support of him for president- but I stand firm, I’m not delusional, he is not a Christian, but his character whether we like to admit it or not is very good, much better than Hillary for sure. And unfortunately I can’t with a clear conscious vote for the other two closet liberals McCain and Huckabee, Rudy is not even in the race in my book.
So unless someone can convince me otherwise I will continue to Be a “Romney for President” supporter.
I am voting for his politics not his theology. I believe he is a man that can be trusted to do what is necessary in office, to insure our security and the continuation of christian values, as best he can.
Jesse, J.
If that’s so, he’s definitely not listening.
David,
I understand your point and agree with you that someone needs to share the Gospel with such men one-on-one. After all, we ought to share the Gospel with all people! Jesse informs us that a good man has attempted to do so in Osteen’s case. But I’m not surprized that Osteen didn’t respond. How sad!
I know you would agree with me that today, the disease of “tolerance” is spreading within evangelicalism to the point that men like John MacArthur are often accused of being divisive because they uphold and defend sound doctrine. I’ve had some similar experiences. If you dare to suggest, even among conservative pastors (who should know theology) that a man like Osteen is heretical, they will look at you like you just cursed in public!
It’s frustrating to watch the so-called “evangelical” church in America corrupt the Gospel it claims to preach. I tremble for pastors like Osteen when they face Christ (James 3:1).
I am hoping that King will somehow get MacArthur and Osteen together on the same program. But I’m not holding my breath for that.
Blessings to you,
Steve
Now, MacArthur has said that he himself is also fair game for criticism because of the public nature of his ministry. And John receives plenty or criticism.
Thanks Steve for pointing this out. I really benefit from Pastor John unleashing God’s Truth One Verse at a Time. I think Pastor John is to be commended highly for being on the frontlines and not shying away from the inevitable arrows and darts that come his way.
But as said in my post above, discerning pastors, authors, theologians, professors, books, essays, blogposts etc… will be all-too-often and all-too-sadly shunned by the peace-at-almost-any-cost, truth-sacrificed-at-the-altar-of-unity Christians.
Whether the rebuke is done in private or in public, it generally does not go well.
Try a thought experiment. Suppose Pastor MacArthur provides a loving correction to Pastor Osteen. And suppose Pastor Osteen thinks it’s a false accusation and that the correction was done in a mean-spirited manner that’s not edifying. And then followers of both leaders find out. And then it spreads. And spreads. And the secular media picks up on the “feud”. And there are tv, radio, newspaper, and internet commentary about “See how those Christians fight, bicker, and quarrel. Didn’t Jesus say something about loving one another and that’s how the world will know Him? But look at Pastor MacArthur and Pastor Osteen lobbing grenades at one another. Hypocrites!”
It’s really a bad and awkward situation.
makes you wonder what his congregation thinks when they hear him talking on talk shows. I wonder how many people have left his church because of his stance on certain things? Probably not many since they are there to have their ears tickled!
What a sad commentary that is on the level of discernement in broader evangelical circles.
_______________________________________
I unsubed when I saw this sentence and came here and people were judging his comments. The scriptures say
‘judge yet not’, from what I remember. None of you, under any circumstances, especially just reading what a publication says, have a right to judge the way this may is supposed to feel about anything.
that is all I have to say
Ms. Musedwr
I guess the best thing that can be done is pray for Joel’s salvation.
Eddie
I guess the best thing that can be done is pray for Joel’s salvation.
Eddie
You may very well be right Eddie!
But out of polite curiosity, how did you discern that Joel Osteen does not have Salvation?
The tenants of Mormonism and the tenants of Christianity cannot mix. They are opposed to one another. I think that it is not much of a stretch to believe that a Pastor in the Mormon church holds to the Mormon tenants. Therefore he cannot be a Christian.
As to voting for Mit R. I believe that the Word of God should be my guide and not how he stacks up against Hilary Clinton.
When voting according to my conscience, I must be guided by the Holy Word of God. There is nothing in the Scriptures that says that I must vote for an American president if no one is running that I can vote for without violating my conscience.
Jeff, Joel Osteen is not in the Mormon church. He was asked to comment about Mitt R., who is a Mormon.
Sorry Mike, that’s what I get for posting while at work.
I see that Joel’s doctrinal statement at Lakewood Church is basically ok, so how can he say that Mormons are Christians? Surly his ability to discern is not that blind. What could be his reasoning? I will listen to the interview but will not purchase the book.
Ms. Musedwr,
Are you judging people here because they are judging?
What Jesus condemns in Matthew 7 is not helping other people to see sin in their lives, but rather He condemns those who hypocritically pay no attention to their own flagrant sin and then pick out minute sins of others – that is judgmentalism.
Judgmentalism is wrong but judging (or confronting one another in love about sin) is often commanded in Scripture (John 7:24; I Corinthians 5:3,12-13).
I hope that is helpful.
BD
David,
I must confess, I see much of myself in your assumption that the task of reaching Joel Osteen is one beloning to someone that is “in a position to do so”.
If you’ll remember with me, another David. A young man whos “position” was no higher than to tend the flocks. God later spoke of this same young man “as a man after my own heart”, a change of the outward position of David may have changed but not that of his heart. And don’t forget Balaam’s donkey, not to suggest you compare yourself to a beast of burden, but its worth notting her lowley position in God’s creation, but remember how God used that donkey to speak on His behalf. He used the donkey to speak to someone whos way was contrary to Him, as is Mr. Osteen’s.
All to often we forget whom we serve. It is not our “position” but HIS that makes all things possible! Read your own words, “I heartily believe though, if I was in a position to do so, my conscience would be clearer if I had tried to reach Mr. Osteen with the Gospel, than to never have tried at all.”
David if you know Him as King, that makes you a Son of The King. What higher “position” is required to try and reach Mr. Osteen?
Don’t forget He made it possible for you to state, “I have been met with relative success…”.
I am confident our Father, The King, thru His Holy Spirit will give you the words that can reach Mr. Osteen, if he has a heart to hear. At worst, you will have cleared your conscience and more importantly, obeyed His leading.
May God richley bless you as you trust Him to do so,
T.B. Frank
Truth,
His rendidtion of the gospel doesn’t line up with scripture. His version of who Jesus is, doesn’t line up with scripture. His preaching doesn’t line up with scipture. So something is wrong.
Eddie
I agree 100% that if Olsteen or Joyce Meyer or…makes claims that can confuse the sheep, it is up to the mature to confront in love and make things right! No doubt about it and in today’s information culture it is mandatory.
I can go online and listen to over 100 different preachers with little effort. There has NEVER been a time like this in the history of the world. Never. Do you know how confusing it is for a young believer trying to discern truth?
Those who are not clear in the essentials need to be brought to light…and quickly. The sheep are to be unified, not scattered. Mr. Olseen’s “self-esteem” is not my concern, but what is my concern is those who might suffer and find yet another leader to be an utter disappointment.
Perspicuity is available to those who will hear. May the Holy Spirit open hearts & minds through careful sharing of His Word. For those in positions of spiritual leadership who sadly and sinfully misrepresent the truth because they really have little respect for Gods and His Word…well, call ‘em out…now…and do it firmly and in love.
T.B Frank, I totally agree with you. I was scrolling down to write similar thoughts when I saw your response. If Mr Osteen would not listen to the nobody-christian “prophet”, he is not going to listen to the raised-up-from-the-dead christian either.
K.H. Yee
“I guess the best thing that can be done is pray for Joel’s salvation.
Eddie”
I think praying for another person is a wonderful thing to do.
Suppose Pastor Osteen has a fatal accident today (without changing anything he believes or is doing currently). And suppose you have an accident a month later. And you then see Pastor Osteen in heaven with you. What would be your thoughts?
Truth,
That the requirements for entrance into heaven had changed.
I like the way pastor John put it in his book “Hard to Believe” “Hell will be full of people who thought highly of the Sermon on the Mount.”
That the requirements for entrance into heaven had changed.
Suppose that the requirements for entrance into heaven had not changed and was actually the same as it always was.
Then the only change would be that you would have to change your mind on what the requirements for entry into heaven are.
Yes, it would require me to change my mind.
But, we could suppose all day long…it tsill doesn’t change the reality of the situation. He doesn’t teach the biblical gospel, he teaches humanism, and that leads to hell. I heard it once said:
Humanism says: The cheif end of man is his happiness.
Chrsitainity says: The cheif end of man is the Golry of God.
Which one do you think Joel teaches?
I’ve never heard Pastor Osteen preach, nor have I read any of his books. All I’ve read are opinion pieces of him in various outlets. So my information is third-hand at best.
I’m really in no position to offer anything but irresponsible speculation. Be that as it may, I’d very humbly guess that he preaches…. Christian humanism!
Pax.
LOL…I would agree with that.
I appreciate you being honest and asking the tough qustions. Ther aren’t too many people in the world of blogging that do that. Thanks!
Most of all I would agree that we should pray for those that distort the Gospel. I also agree that in this info age that discernment ministries are even of more value than in the past. However, what is the church to do with those that teach and preach error? Do we still embrace them, hoping that there is a spark of grace in them that Christ will not quench the smoldering flax? Do we just let go and let God?
Or do we show them by the Word of God that they are in error and if they do not repent, then church discipline is to be used on them—-and their congregations that follow them? What will that do to Christian unity? I guess not much, but if they are teaching against the Word of God, do we stay unified with untruth-error? The true church it seems to me, should draw a line, even if it causes two churches {not that that hasn’t happened before}. Now if this (Osteens,Meyers etc}is just a matter of opinion, then maybe the blogs are out of line that criticise them. After all everyone is entitled to an opinion. But error, when confronted with truth and yet still remaining steadfast with the error, then is that not willful sin? Are we as a church supposed to tolerate that from individual members, let alone a minister of the Word? Now if this is only inconsequential error that they are purporting, then why all the big deal about it?
It seems to me that we are at a time , like that of the Reformation, when the true church must take a stand and separate from those that teach falsehood. The world is watching and it seems to me and the watching world that the Christian church is a grab bag of ideas about Christ, evangelism, truth, etc.
1 Corinthians 5:11 >>
But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler– not even to eat with such a one.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Sorry, I failed to put the whole passage up.
1 Corinthians 5
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
Osteen will one day stand alone before Jesus Christ and be made to give account of his life and teaching. I realize many, myself included, are upset, even angry with Osteen for not following the Word of God. But, I also think we should be praying for him. For if he continues as he is, he and so many others will pay a terrible price for all eternity.
Thankfully scripture can not be broken.
Janice,
So do we continue to embrace them as brothers and sisters in Christ, even though they teach erroneous doctrines? Are the erroneuos doctrines damnable or or they just opinions that we can not really prove one way or the other so we just agree to disagree? And if that is the case, where do we draw the line of what is truth? What do we, as the true church, do with these folks and their flocks? If it isn’t important in regards to salvation, then why bother talking about it?
Maybe I do not understand the difference between error and lies. I see error as a misunderstanding until the truth is presented. Then when it is still rejected , it is a lie and a heresy, whether the person is deceived or not. To me to accept error is to then accept universalism, for doesn’t even the unbeliever error?
Joel Olsteen? I don’t have a problem with him because he is plainly in serious error and doesn’t try to hide what he is all about. He said himself: “it’s not my calling to preach doctrine”. My problem is with a whole host of mystic christian philosophers that pass as mainline evangelicals and get a pass from Mcauthor and everyone else. At least Olsteen doesn’t use a hermenuetic that enables teachers to totally reinterprete the plain sense of scripture any way they want to! He openly admits he doesn’t use a hermenuetic at all! The honesty in advertising is a breath of fresh air.
Paul D.
Paul your commendation of Osteen’s “honesty” is a little short-sighted. If Joel Osteen were really honest, he wouldn’t allow his building to be called a Christian church and he wouldn’t sell his books (by the thousands) in Christian bookstores. The very meaning of what it means to be a Christian (and a Christian church) is at stake.
Individual Christians may very well pray for Joel Osteen to repent of his false teaching.
But let us not forget that it is the duty of pastors and elders to warn the flock. This is God’s pattern for the role of a shepherd. If a book or a teaching is out there and it is false, then according to scripture those men in authority in the church are duty bound to warn others. Instead of spending (wasting?) time on the web arguing with solid Christians who warn others about false teachers, why not study YOUR BIBLE and see if what is being taught is right or wrong?
You could even start with Jesus himself, who warned of false teachers and false christs. From there you could look at Paul, Peter and Jude in the New Testament. They all warned of false teachers and false teachings. And one more thing, if Joel Osteen is not a false teacher, then what type of teacher was Jesus referring to? Is there anyone today that you would consider false? What did Jesus mean by this teaching? Why would he warn us if there is no such thing as a false teacher?
Julie,
I think you took my sarcasm a little too serious. However, while I would agree with your comments 200%, If we are going to take Olsteen to task, others who are “mainstream reformed” and teaching serious error concerning sanctification should be taken to task as well. A wrong view of the sanctification process will ruin peoples lives and Christ is no less concerned about that.
God bless sister.
Paul
So I read his whole interview that the link provided, and I see no answers having to do with a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
“WALLACE: And you know, obviously, you are making an enormous amount of money with the television show, with these best-selling books.
How do you personally — how does Joel Osteen keep himself safe, guard against being corrupted by all the temptations that must surround you?
OSTEEN: Yeah. I think there’s a couple things. One, I like to start my day off every morning, take the first half hour and just search my own heart, see if I’m on the right course, try to be honest with myself — am I doing this for the right reasons?
Two, I have good family around me that I think can speak into my life. And the other thing is, you know, I’m — I realize that as quick as you go up, you can really come down that quick. And we’ve seen it happen with others.”
This statement, along with others in that interview and other interviews he has had, mentions nothing of going to God. He seems to rely so much on his own self and what he can do. I do not mean to judge the man, I’m just making obvious observations from statements he has made, so please forgive me if this comes out as being judgemental or harsh.
I see this type of preaching evident in America today. Pastor John talks about it in his books. I am currently reading The Truth war right now and it’s heartbreaking that truth is being misrepresented. We Christians need to stand for the truth and fight for the turth agsint preachers who are giving a false, watered-down, untruthful gospel.
As for Mr. Osteen, first and foremost, I will pray the conviction of the Holy Spirit on your life, and you will realize the damage you causing by supplying this false hope to people. I feel it is necessary that someone intervenes with him. This message is deceiving so many people; and it seems like many strong Bible believing, truth filled Christians sit around and do nothing. I pray just as much as I pray for Mr. Osteen that strong men of faith rise up like John MacArthur and others who are not ashamed of the Gospel and truth that they will fight these injustices to the Word and have a huge impact for the Kingdom.
Joel Osteen isn’t a brother in the faith whatsoever! He is a false teacher–in the truest sense of the term. Of all of the times that I’ve caught him preaching his gospel of self-help and feel-goodism on TV., interviews with the various talking heads and flipping thru his latest self-centered book; I’ve never once witnessed him preaching–let alone mention the name of Jesus Christ. Of the thousands, worldwide who follow his message, will one day discover that they’ve been lead down the broad way and right through the wide gate of destruction.
Wow…great insight from all. Thanks for participating, and allowing me to hear and see so many different opinions. Having said that, it’s amazing how each of us has interpreted the bible, huh! We each see and hear from the filters we have carried,and mixed it with the theology we have learned or adopted over the years it seems. Those of you who made mistakes in your responses to each other corrected it….so where does the blame lie?…..who’s right and who’s wrong?….
The woman who was brought to Jesus was know by everyone who knew anybody ,and then some-no question about her stance in public. As with Joel, there is no question about his stance, as he has made this public to us all from his own lips. Because of his confession, we question.
Proverbs states that “a man is known by what others say of him” So where does that leave us?
Yes, as Jesus did we must confront, however, none of us have the right to throw a stone…..”Beware of false teachers” Yes! But to speak to one another not out of Love for this lost man is sin. This is why we must drop our stone.
When was the last time Christ gave us what WE deserved?
TR,
Then how would you go about obeying God in regards to 1 Corinthians 5?