An Astounding Quote from Zane Hodges
January 10th, 2008
In light of yesterday’s discussion, it is perhaps helpful to cite an extended quote from Zane Hodges (one of the leading opponents to the lordship position). Yesterday’s article originally came from a longer journal article by John MacArthur in response to the Free Grace theology of those like Hodges. We are posting this as an example of what John’s article was safeguarding against.
The quote itself comes from a message that Zane Hodges delivered at the Church of the Open Door, pastored by G. Michael Cocoris. The series of tapes is entitled, “Great Themes in the Book of Hebrews.” The online source for this quote, along with several other similar quotes, comes from here (HT: Jonathan Moorhead).
[Beginning of Quote -- by Zane Hodges]
I have a friend, and more than a friend, a man who labored wvith me side by side in the ministry of God’s Word in the little group that has become __________ Bible chapel and this friend has fallen away from the Christian faith. He graduated from Bob Jones University and from Dallas Theological Seminary. And about the time when he and his wife left Dallas his wife contracted a very serious illness which over the years got progressively worse until she was reduced to being a complete invalid, and after the death of his wife I visited my friend (who now lives in the Midwest and who teaches Ancient History in a secular university).
And as we sat in the living room together, face to face, he told me very frankly but graciously that he no longer claimed to be a Christian at all, that he no longer believed the things that he once preached and taught, and the situation was even worse than he described because I heard through others that in the classroom on the university campus he often mocked and ridiculed the Christian faith. As I sat in that living room I was very painfully aware that it was impossible for me to talk that man into changing his mind. It was impossible for me to talk him back to the conviction he had once held. It was impossible for me to renew him to repentance. You want to find someone harder to deal with than an unsaved person? Find a person like that….
Oh how disgraceful for a man to have known the truth and proclaimed the truth and then to deny the truth! He has put the Son of God to an open shame! Well you say, “I guess he’s headed for hell, right? I guess he’s headed for eternal damnation. He’s renounced his Christian faith.” Wait a minute. I didn’t say that, and neither does the writer of Hebrews. Let me remind you that Jesus said, “I am the bread of life. He that cometh to Me shall never hunger and he that believeth on Me shall never thirst.” And He also said, “He that cometh to Me I shall in no wise cast out.”… God’s will is that He lose no one (John 6:37-40). He has never lost anyone and He never will! And I grieve because my friend and brother has lost his faith but Christ has not lost him. He has lost his faith but Christ has not lost him! Do you believe in the grace of God?
[End of Quote -- Emphasis added]
That is an astounding conclusion, especially in light of the New Testament’s emphasis on the perseverance of true faith and the dangers of apostasy. Nonetheless, it is statements like this that characterize the “Free Grace” (non-lordship) position, and help underscore the need for a biblical response.
1 John 2:18-19: “Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for it they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.”
Confused. “Free grace”(God is the Author and Finisher and elect man responds in belief/repentance because enabled first) IS “salvation is of the Lord” that MacArthur teaches ~ while isn’t what opposes Biblical saving/sovereign/triumphant/free grace “free will”(man initiates–decisional regeneration)? Have those of “free will” now pilfered the wording reflecting God’s glory alone? Figures.
http://www.puritanboard.com/f48/free-will-vs-free-grace-21819/
Mark 13:13
“And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who ENDURES to the end shall be saved.”
Acts 20:24
“But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may FINISH my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.”
2 Timothy 4:7
“I have fought the good fight, I have FINISHED the race, I have kept the faith.”
Matthew 7:20-23
“Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”
Mark 3:29
“…but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”"
Luke 12:10
“And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven.”
Jude 1:4
“For certain men have crept IN UNNOTICED, who long ago were marked out for this CONDEMNATION, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and DENY the only Lord God and our LORD Jesus Christ”
Revelation 2:13
“I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you HOLD FAST to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.”
1 Corinthians 15:2
“…by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—UNLESS you believed in vain.”
What a witness we have in the Scriptures…
Let us:
2 Peter 1:10
“Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble…”
Lest we become arrogant and deny the grace with which we ourselves have been purchased and put Christ to an open shame. We have been bought with an incomprehensible price in Christ and been given a good gift by the Father, et us ensure that we have truly received that gift of mercy, by ensuring that we follow our LORD and Master in all that He commands of obedient loving children.
In the grace, mercy & compassionate care of our LORD God Jesus Christ the Holy Spirit, our Redeemer.
P.S- I trust that we may be encouraged by those who are comforted by the Sovereignty of God’s gifts of mercy and grace in severe trials, to finish our very own races well. Such is my dear brother in the faith: Johnny Farese:
See this link for his testimony:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WT_WUOyud4
And this is his personal website:
http://www.farese.com/
Writers like Zane Hodges perform as Hank Hanegraaf says “Scriptorture” when they pour into the text of Scripture what is not there.
Just because his friend “labored”, and went to Christian schools it is assumed that he remains a believer and always was.
He has appeared to make himself the judge of true faith at the expense of the Word of God.
Is the man Zane Hodges mentions one of the elect ? Is he included in once saved always saved ? If salvation is Lordship salvation then do we not have to submit to the rule of Jesus Christ and if you submit does that not demand complete obedience which will eventually mean partcipating in works of faith ? If not , then how do you submit to the Lord ?
If we take Zane Hodges seriously, then it seems scripture speaks about a group of people (apostates) that in reality do not exist. If the man Hodges describes is not an apostate, I would really like to know how he defines that term. On this line of argument, Judas is probably an usher at the pearly gates (second fiddle to Peter, of course).
This might seem basic but I’ve always heard that salvation is free. But if I have to give up my most valuable posession, my “life”( i.e. lordship). Doesn’t that mean that salvation cost me every thing I have?
Zane Hodges’ failure to understand the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is in part a result of his misinterpretation of the book of Hebrews because he make a fundamental mistake in assuming that the warning passages are targeted to genuine Christians who are in danger of falling away from the faith. The warning passages are targeted to Jews who understand the Gospel but refuse to fully embrace Christ and the Church because of the pressure and persecution they would face.
Ray,
In your comment above, you say: “If salvation is Lordship salvation then do we not have to submit to the rule of Jesus Christ and if you submit does that not demand COMPLETE OBEDIENCE which will eventually mean partcipating in works of faith?” (EMPHASIS MINE)
Do you claim COMPLETE OBEDIENCE? By definiton, this implies obedience to the commands of Christ consistently, at all times without fail.
Is that what you are claiming?
Steven ,
I am asking just what is Lorship salvation ? What does it mean to submit to Jesus as Lord ? Is there obedience and if so how much to assure salvation ? Are only the elect able to be adequate in submitting to the Lord , while the rest are already assigned to hell ? I am asking for clarification in defining what is meant by Lordship salvation.
Ray,
Thanks for your question. Lordship salvation teaches that those who are truly saved (by God’s grace alone through faith in Christ Jesus) will necessarily evidence the fruit of repentance in their lives (since they have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit). And that, vice versa, those who do not evidence the fruit of repentance have good reason to question the validity of their profession of faith.
It stands opposed to Free Grace theology (espoused by Zane Hodges) which teaches that saving faith does not include or necessarily result in repentance.
We did a long series on Lordship Salvation in Fall 2006, which you can access through the Pulpit archives (see September and October 2006).
Hope this is helpful to you.
NB
I think one of the biggest contributing factors to the Lordship debate is misunderstanding.
Generally, people who don’t believe in Lordship accuse “us” of saying that works are needed for salvation.
That is NOT what “we” are saying.
Both sides agree that salvation is by grace through faith alone apart from works. However Paul is clear in his writing that there are two aspects of salvation… a “already” and “not yet”. We are saved, but at the same time we will be saved.
Lordship salvation takes the position that once a person is truly saved (by God’s view, not ours), they will demonstrate that salvation by obedience to Christ according to Scripture.
That’s it. Plain and simple.
If one never demonstrates that faith, or eventually turns away from the faith we understand according to the apostle John that “they were never of us”. Only those who persevere and demonstrate their faith by obedience until the end are the ones that will ultimately be saved.
Again, Lordship does not say that obedience is necessary for salvation in the sense that God does not look at our works as a means of justification. But works follow justification and continual sanctification points back to the validity of our salvation.
I hope that clears things up a little bit.
Here is a link to Grace Church’s position paper on “Lordship Salvation.” It is a good introduction to those who are new to this discussion.
CLICK HERE
Ray,
I think you are missing the point here. It comes down to a heart issue. If you truly love the Lord and want your life to glorify Him, then it is not a question of how much obedience is needed to assure our salvation.
If Zane Hodges’ friend truly had a heart for the Lord, the out come would have been different…it could have changed Zane’s whole perception on Lordship.
I posted this on another board but it pertains to this thread as well:
“..true believers not only WILL NOT but CANNOT renounce their faith. Not necessarily because of their own great strength but because Jesus Christ Himself preserves them. My faith does not rely on my ability to endure (which would be very boastful of me) but rather on my SAVIOR’s faithfulness and ability to keep His promise to keep me for Himself. Jesus said:
“And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”
John 10:28-30
God bless.
“Lordship Salvation” or to use the Biblical term “salvation” restores us to our proper place UNDER God.
God grants everything required for salvation, even belief (Philippians 1:29)
Bill ,
In verse 27 Jesus said His sheep will listen to Him and follow Him. They will continue to listen and followand they , those who continue to do so , will be those who will be saved. They wii have eternal life.
If one holds to the view “once saved always saved”
then, why would the apostle Paul say in 1 Corinthians:
“But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified”.
Adrian,
The reason is because of what the previous comments have been saying. Paul understood that it is possible to be disqualified or “lose”, thereby demonstrating we were never truly saved to begin with.
“Once saved, always saved” needs to be qualified because only God knows the true status of a person who claims to be a believer. It does not mean “once you’ve prayed the prayer you’re saved forever” which is the non-Lordship salvation view.
There is a difference between what is meant when Hodges says “once saved, always saved” and what the doctrine of perseverence implies.
The Lordship view does not say you can “lose” your salvation in a real sense because if you turn away from Christ you prove you never had salvation. You can’t lose what you didn’t have.
As you can see one has to be careful with definitions and nuances in this sort of discussion.
Our salvation cannot be lost as it does not reside with us. We didn’t earn it, we don’t keep it. Our salvation is not based on our love for God, it is based on His love for us.
Gabriel,
I understand what you are saying and I believe in the Lordship view of salvation.
I guess what I was trying to say was that you can’t claim to be saved then turn away denying Christ and still be saved and go to heaven unless there is true repentance.
From God’s perspective I agree with “once saved always saved” which is the perseverence view, right?
I was not saying that Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:27 could “lose” his salvation but that he could not just live according to the flesh and still be saved in the end.
Really the bottom line is:
Did He call you or not? If you have been called by God for salvation then you CANNOT lose nor will you WANT to lose it.
Romans 8:29-31
“For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified”
According to God, a believer’s salvation has already been completed.
Since we are on the human side of this, we don’t see the final realization until the end. As for myself, I have no doubts about my salvation nor do I think I can ever lose it because it is Christ preserves me. It is this truth that motivates me to live my life in a way that honors Him and gives evidence to this saving faith.
Bill,
Very well put. I strongly believe that.
Adrian,
To help you with your question about I Corinthians 9:27 you need to keep the verse in context. The train of thought actually starts in verse 24 Do you not know that all who run a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way as not beating the air; 27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I myself have preached to others, I will not be disqualified.
The metaphor here is of an athlete who is competing in the games to win a prize, but must compete by the rules in order to win. According to verse 25, self control is required in all things to win the prize, and the athletes exercise self control to win a perishable wreath, but we, as Christians exercise self control to obtain an imperishable wreath (the reward for winning the race). What Paul does in the flesh is not done aimlessly, without purpose, nor is it done for naught, as in boxing the air, but he disiciplines his body and makes it his slave for the purpose of self control in all things, so that after he has preached to others he will not be disqualified, because of his lack of self control in even the smallest area;and thereby not receive the reward given running the race correctly. The disqualification is for receiving the prize, an eternal wreath/reward, not the loss of salvation. His concern was not about finishing the race, perservering, but running the race under control, so that he would win the prize/eternal reward.
Ray B
You stated:
“I am asking just what is Lordship salvation ? What does it mean to submit to Jesus as Lord ? Is there obedience and if so how much to assure salvation ? Are only the elect able to be adequate in submitting to the Lord , while the rest are already assigned to hell ? I am asking for clarification in defining what is meant by Lordship salvation.”
May I attempt to give a testimony of how Lordship salvation works out in my life. When I seen His love for me, His holiness against my unholiness it was a defining moment of repentance and surrender to Him and my heart and mind bowed down to Him. I realized I didn’t have the answers in this life but He does, so as a believer you start out as a babe and as the Word of God directs, teaches, convicts…I obey and transformation begins and each day I become more like Him as evidence of my salvation. I obey because I believe, I sin because I have a sin nature that constantly battles my flesh, but His Word revives me and I confess and bow down to His Lordship and He gives me hope to continue in this fallen world. When you see His Love –that He gave so I could have eternal life, see Him as Sovereign Ruler, Creator, All-Sufficient One, the Shepherd and Guardian of my soul AND YOU REALLY BELIEVE IT then He is Lord of all.
I think maybe your understanding of what “believe” means is where the confusion is. And I am sure my uneducated explanation of it, many may disagree and can further enhance.
But as I see it…
If you really believe it is going to rain and the leather seats in convertible will be ruined-you will do something about it.
If you really believe the fire that started in the kitchen can harm you-you will really do something about it.
If you really believe that He loved so much and gave His Son, you will really do something about it, repent and bow down to His Lordship. I want to have a relationship with Him so I study His Word so when you believe that something is true you try to live your life accordingly-and obedience is part of it because when you read the Word you learn that disobedience displeases God and puts a barrier between you and the One you love.
KC
kc ,
Then what you are saying is that when you submit to the Lord then real submission is a daily decision to live in obedeince , or do I have it wrong ? My whole point in all of this is that we are given a freedom to make such a choice. Some do and continue. Others , along the way , falter and do not . They start out fully persuaded and dedicated but fall back into sin. Some say they never really beleived. I say they did but never kept the dedicated focus on Jesus.Like the parable of the soils/hearts.
How come my comment has been awaiting moderation for so long, Nathan?
Ray B
I’m saying that when I received His gift of grace I submitted to Him as Lord, it is all part of the package deal so-to-speak, sign on the dotted line, sealed by the Holy Spirit, done. For me, I don’t decide daily to live in obedience, I decided that at the moment of salvation so, daily if I don’t live in obedience and fellowship to Him, He convicts, encourages, through His word. I don’t think of obeying as a free choice, I think of it as a privilege and something I already agreed too. He loved me so much He gave and I want to give back!
Ray, may I ask you what your situation is? What is your background? Have you received the gift of grace? Are you not sure? If you don’t mind me asking.
KC
KC ,
Completely sure ! Saved by grace through obedient faith and with the help of God living for Him and His son.
My questions go all the way back to the blog about Heb. 6 and the warning passages. My conviction is that the warnings are written to believers.
Some believers have made the decision not to stay with the Lord and have drifted so far away as to be in a lost condition. They have decided to stray away from all the spiritual help provided by our Father .
Ray,
From the article above click on ‘comes from here’ reference and read his ‘My Response’ which is near the bottom of the page and highlighted red. No sense me repeating.
God keeps us, He promises us, the Bible tells me so.
KC
Ray,
Wow, I missed that so I went and took a long…look and I can see that either you are not sure so your asking but what your saying by your answers you seem sure. So maybe your just trying to convince others of your view.
I have to admit I haven’t read all of the response to the Heb 6 issue and really don’t need to because I do know one thing, Christ died for me cause I couldn’t pay the price and no one before Him was qualified and no one since. I can do nothing to earn it, keep it, or continue in it. May I genuinelly suggest you do a study on the topic of pride because pride is the only thing I can think of that would make one think he can by works save himself.
May God give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him and may the eyes of your heart be enlightened so that you will know what is the hope of His calling and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints and what is the surpassing greatness of HIS POWER toward us who believe.
KC ,
Thank you for the discussion. ” We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.” Heb. 3 : 14
I am newly saved and have just begun to study to bible, so I am probably unqualified to voice an opinion but I felt compelled to do so. I believe, according to what I have read about God in the bible, that He alone decides for each man, woman, and child who is saved and who is condemmned. God is very clear about what is required to obtain salvation but I don’t think you can lose it, can you? Wasn’t that the point of Jesus Christ dying for our sins. It seems pointless to speculate about each other’s salvation in this light. I think, instead, as Christians we should invest our energies in praying for those who have lost their way. That’s just my humble opinion and perhaps I missed the point all together.
I’m taken back the more I think and read on this yet grateful in learning of this perversion of free grace by Zanes. I’m seeing where his version is simply free will renamed. Spurgeon and Edwards and Newton all preached free grace and called it just that: free grace. Takes my breath away. Free grace to me will always be the foundation…the old path ~ God’s sovereignly free, amazing, and triumphant grace rather than man’s free will being at the wheel turning the key when can’t being dead “in Adam”.
Gabrielle,
You said, “Generally, people who don’t believe in Lordship accuse “us” of saying that works are needed for salvation.
That is NOT what “we” are saying.”
Would you be interested in quotes from LS authors that contradict this? And how many would influence you to think otherwise? 1, 10, ? I recently did a short study of one book and found at least 30. The author would be someone very familiar to you.
Hey Nate,
Am I banned or something? Why did you delete my comment?
Was it not Jesus who said, “Whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life”? (John 4:14).
If one drinks of the water that Christ gives, he will never thirst for it again. The man Zane speaks about drank the water and will never thirst again.
Let me tell you all something. Imagine this. Why would God make one inevitably and relentlessly disposed toward sanctification, yet leave him to allow sin in his life? This is incongruent. Does God produce half-works (at best)?
Here is the answer:
God gave us a divine nature that cannot sin. He gave us all things that pertain to life and to godliness. He gave us exceedingly precious and great promises whereby we can be delivered from the lusts of the world.
But what gets imparted to us when we are regenerated by faith is in seed form. All those potentials lie latent in that divine nature. Like the small seed of a mighty oak, they need to be cultivated by light, depth, nourishment, hydration, and time. That small seed, imparted by regeneration, has unlimited potential! But that seed, by itself, although having the potential to produce a tree of indescribable stature and glory, needs the tender loving care of the one entrusted with it.
Why is one Christian more productive than the other? Precisely because he has contributed greater facilitation to that seed than the other.
C) The moment that someone places their faith into the Lord Jesus Christ, they become a child of God (Jn 1:12), and as such, move into a new relationship with God; God as Father and Master, and we as child, steward/servant. In such a role, God will chasten us with severity in both time and eternity, if we fail to pursue sanctification by following the commandments of Christ.
D) Postively, God holds out treasures, rewards, incentives, glories, honors, and privileges to those who faithfully endure, keeping Christ’s words and works, persevering until the end. Such superlative experiences of co-reigning with Christ, co-inheriting with Him, and sharing in the joy that He won (Heb 12:3).
E) True life, with its attendent purpose, significance, and meaning — abundant life! — comes when one not only hears and reads the words of God, but applies them (Js 1:25). Shipwreck, the loss of true life and purpose comes when one disregards God’s word (Mt 7:24-27; 10:39).
Here it is as plainly as can be:
1) Eternal life is free. You can take the waters of life freely, no strings attached, no caveats, no provisos (Rev 22:17).
2) Eternal life is received the moment that one believes in Jesus for it. The one who entrusts his eternal destiny into the hands of Christ has everlasting life (Jn 6:47).
3) When one believes into Christ, he is born again (Jn 3:16 c.f. 3:3).
4) When one is born again, he partakes of the divine nature (2 Pet 1:4).
5) This divine nature cannot sin (1 Jn 3:9).
6) The old nature still exists in the ontological makeup of the Christian (Eph 4:22)
7) The Christian is positionally dead and raised with Christ (Rom 6:1-10).
God does not drag anyone down the path of obedience. He has given the Christian every advantage! If the Christian does not avail himself of the graces afforded to him by the riches of Christ, he will not have the abundant life, nor will he have the crowning experience of life in the kingdom of God, although he will be saved, yet as through fire (1 Cor 3:15).
Does anyone wish to have a profitable conversation and have an open mind along with an open bible? I am willing to entertain your questions.
Please be prayerful about this position.
You see:
eternal life is absolutely free
but the abundant life now and the crowning experience of life in the kingdom (and deliverance from death and purposelessness) is contingent on our faithfulness to Christ now.
Blessed be God for His abundant grace!
Free Grace!
Antonio da Rosa
Antonio da Rosa is the most vocal apologist for all things Zane Hodges.
Some of the most extreme statements you will read anywhere on the Gospel come from Antonio. His views are examples of what the GES faction of the Free Grace community has spiraled down to by following the teaching of Hodges. Here is an example.
“The Mormon Jesus and Evangelical Jesus are one and the same.” Read it here…
http://indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com/2008/01/can-biblical-jesus-mormon-jesus-be-one.html
Antonio da Rosa’s “Crossless” interpretation of the Gospel and extremism is NOT representative of the Free Grace community at large.
LM