Pulpit Magazine

Posted in Lordship, Salvation |

66 Responses to “Saved to the Uttermost”

1. on 04 Jan 2008 at 6:59 am   Truth Unites... and Divides

   This has been a good series. I was a relatively firm 5-pointer for quite some time. Then I became uncertain and a little wavering on “P”. Doctrinally and logically, “P” must happen! Must!

   But it *appeared* to me that practically speaking, by honest empirical observation, that “P” didn’t seem to work so neatly. 2 brief examples:

   (1) Dan Barker who’s now a prominent spokesperson for atheism. He was a long-time missionary and pastor. And suppose he passes away without ever repenting for not continuing in steadfast faith to Christ. Can Reform folks really say with some measure of certainty that he was never a Christian? I mean, he did bear fruit for a while. He just didn’t bear fruit to the end.

   (2) Just for the heck of making a wild example to illustrate a possibility. Suppose John Piper, a staunch 5-pointer if there ever was one, all of a sudden, renounces Christ as Savior and Lord, and becomes atheist, buddhist, new-age mystic, or whatever.

   Now it doesn’t seem right to say that he was never a Christian. Because both the majority of Christians and the majority of non-Christians would say that Piper most certainly was a Christian.

   The other two alternatives is to say that he lost his faith and his salvation. He didn’t persevere. The doctrine of “P” fails! Yuck!

   Or to say just like the Westminster Confession: “Nevertheless [believers] may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and for a time continue therein; whereby they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit: come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts; have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves (sec. 3).”

   In closing, I’m glad to be informed about Section 3 of the WCF. Because that seems to be the only reasonable explanation for why some believers “appear” to fall away and I’m still able to recover my confidence level in the doctrine of “P”.

2. on 04 Jan 2008 at 8:26 am   David R. McCrory

   The warning passages of Scripture which guard against falling away have been a stumbling block for many. I think what has to be kept in mind in order to maintain a right perspective on them is the fact they are addressed to “secured” believers in the Faith. The fact that we do persevere by God’s grace dismisses the notion we can fully and finally fall away.

   But God works through means. And as a result, we find these warnings scattered throughout Scripture against falling away being the very means the Lord uses to bring about his glorious work of perseverence in His saints. In short, they aren’t to scare us out of the Faith, they are to humble us by keeping us in.

3. on 04 Jan 2008 at 9:13 am   Vince

   Isn’t Perseverance what a person does? Yes. Perseverance is man’s responsibility. Yet we are not saved by perseverance. We are saved by faith and faith alone.

   Preservation, on the other hand, is what God does. He protects, guards, and secures salvation for those who come to Christ.

   There is no security in Perseverance. The security is on God’s Preservation of the believer.

4. on 04 Jan 2008 at 10:44 am   Robert

   “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven {will enter.} Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ (Matt 7:21-23)

   We all know this passage. This is a very strong warning from our Lord that many would fool themselves into thinking that they were heirs of eternal life, yet the Lord never knew them.

   These and other passages have been historically difficult to inturpret such as Hebrews 6:4-6. We must be very careful that we do not teach that these are born again believers. To say that you own ability to be faithful decides weather you persevere or not takes salvation out of God’s hand and puts it in ours. To say that those who are born again can lose our salvation is to deny the promises that Christ makes in John 6, John 10… I can go on. I agree with the above writer who that said the “P” is the hardest doctrine in the TULIP to work out because of the strong warnings that scripture provides. However, I think that it all comes down to the spirit of Salvation. “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast” (Eph 2:8-9) Grace, salvation, faith and perseverance are all a gift.

   Praise the Lord that my perseverance is not up to me!

   “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:44)

   In Christ,
   Robert

5. on 04 Jan 2008 at 12:19 pm   Jeffrey V.

   It is with great interest that I read your post. I would note, that the reason Wesleyan-Arminian types like myself have serious reservations about this doctrine, is because we fear that this belief disregards numerous instances where the Scriptures tell us to ‘beware lest you fall’, and ignore the instances where men, chosen by God, have rejected God from their lives.

   We feel that teaching men and women that they can never ‘reject’ God out of their lives, lulls them into a false sense of security. In other words, it might lead me to believe that it really doesn’t matter any more how carefully I try to live my life under the guiding of the Holy Spirit, because in the end, it doesn’t matter. I cannot possibly fall from God’s grace…is this what you mean to say?

   Could it be that statistics showing little or no difference between ‘Christians’ and those who are not in America, in regards to divorce, premarital sex, etc., are because there IS no difference. Could it be that the popularity of this ‘once saved, always saved’ doctrine in the U.S. has fostered the type of Christian who believes that he or she doesn’t have to live different from the world, and can avoid disciplined Christian living because they can never possibly ‘lose’ this grace freely given to them?

   We believe that there is absolutely nothing that can separate us from God, not Satan, not temptation, not anything at all, except ourselves, and the free will that a sovereign God has chosen to give us.

   Remember God’s message to Saul? Samuel let Saul know that since he had rejected God’s words, God had rejected him from being king over Israel.

   I hope that there are no people in hell who found out too late that their rejection of God DID have a consequence after all. Is my understanding of your doctrine wrong? I respect you folks a lot, I am just trying to let you knwo the mindset of the ‘other side’.

6. on 04 Jan 2008 at 12:47 pm   Truth Unites... and Divides

   “Praise the Lord that my perseverance is not up to me!”

   Deep thanks for that pithy insight Robert. That makes a lot of sense to me.

   Let me ask a related question. Is it biblically okay to *JUDGE* another person’s salvation or conversion? What motivates the question is the mandate for the Great Commission. Don’t I have to judge someone’s eternal condition when I’m doing one-on-one evangelism?

7. on 04 Jan 2008 at 2:09 pm   David R. McCrory

   We are to judge those who profess to know Christ by the fruit they produce in their life. If you’re evangelizing, you’re already working under the assumption the person you’re speaking too needs saving. In this case, there’s nothing to judge. If a person says they’re a believer, then the question simply becomes one of whether or not their life is generating the fruit promised to those who truly put their faith in Christ.

8. on 04 Jan 2008 at 3:13 pm   Mike

   Jeffrey,

   I respect your genuineness in wanting to hear from “the other side.” If you don’t mind, I’ll try to answer your questions.

   Could it be that statistics showing little or no difference between ‘Christians’ and those who are not in America, in regards to divorce, premarital sex, etc., are because there IS no difference.

   Absolutely. Without question.

   Could it be that the popularity of this ‘once saved, always saved’ doctrine in the U.S. has fostered the type of Christian who believes that he or she doesn’t have to live different from the world, and can avoid disciplined Christian living because they can never possibly ‘lose’ this grace freely given to them?

   I think this is certainly possible, but the answer isn’t give up on eternal security. The answer is: proclaim the Gospel biblically and leave “easy-believism” for the dogs. I think we need to teach people that it’s hard to come to faith in Christ. It’s hard to count the cost. It’s hard to forsake every bit of ourselves. It’s hard to hate father, mother, etc. It’s hard to become last. And yet these are all the things Christ calls us to do if we would follow Him. The problem isn’t that people are teaching that you can’t lose your salvation. The problem is that people aren’t teaching what it actually means to be saved. Doing this preempts having to deal with situations where people think they can be saved and live like the devil. So when you ask…

   it really doesn’t matter any more how carefully I try to live my life under the guiding of the Holy Spirit, because in the end, it doesn’t matter. I cannot possibly fall from God’s grace…is this what you mean to say?

   No. It’s not. If someone said that to me, I’d say to them that they’re right in saying that they can’t fall from God’s grace, but that because of their life and the fruit their bearing there’s reason to question whether or not they’re in God’s grace now, because grace doesn’t come without giving evidence of itself.

   We believe that there is absolutely nothing that can separate us from God, not Satan, not temptation, not anything at all, except ourselves, and the free will that a sovereign God has chosen to give us.

   The problem is that Paul doesn’t say that in Romans 8. There is no exception clause. In fact, he defies his readers to come up with who could possibly bring a charge against the elect, those whom God sovereignly chooses, sovereignly justifies, and sovereignly glorifies. Certainly, Paul doesn’t have your exception clause in mind. Even further, after listing all the things he can come up with that can’t separate us from Christ, he adds “nor any other created thing,” which has to include me and my will (free or not).

   Remember God’s message to Saul? Samuel let Saul know that since he had rejected God’s words, God had rejected him from being king over Israel.

   But let’s not only skim the surface and thus forget why Saul rejected God’s words: “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.” The reason Saul is rejected is because he rejects. But the reason he rejects is because he is not chosen of God. If we don’t take it there, we would have to change John 10:26 to read: “You are not My sheep because you do not believe.” But of course, we can’t do that.

   I hope that there are no people in hell who found out too late that their rejection of God DID have a consequence after all.

   I’m sure that there are more people in hell for this reason than any of us would like to think. But ultimately, they’re in hell because they never believed. And they didn’t ever believe because they were not His sheep.

   Praying that you would see the gloriousness of these truths,

   MIKE

9. on 04 Jan 2008 at 4:11 pm   Jesse Johnson

   Jeffery V.,

   We agree that the fact many “Christians” live immoral lives, and we agree that their infatuation with sin is not ok. However, where we disagree is the cause. If you say that salvation is a achieved by a decision or a commitment, then you have the problem where statistics show that “Christians” don’t live differently than the world. But, we would answer that objection by saying that many of those people are not really Christians. They have not been born again. They may call themselves Christians, but their lives illustrate that they are not.

   A Christian loves Christ, hates sin, repents from sin when he sees it in his life, and perseveres. A non-Christian may very well call himself a Christian, but if he loves sin, he is not. The solution to this problem is not in jettisoning the doctrine of perseverance, but in claiming the doctrine that salvation is a new-birth, wrought by the Spirit, which produces a transformed life.

   Thanks,

   Jesse

10. on 04 Jan 2008 at 4:16 pm   Jesse Johnson

    I also note the irony, that Jeffery V. points out, that in many circles of American Christianity election, regeneration, total depravity, irresistible grace, etc., are considered heretical. But, often people who reject those consider perseverance as self-evident. Many American evangelicals are staunch in their free-will theology, thinking that salvation is a decision, while they cling to perseverance. I agree with Jeffery V. when he points out that kind of doctrine of perseverance does produce people who live like the world and think they are going to heaven.

    It is a dangerous doctrine to have in isolation from the rest of Biblical soteriolgy.

    Jesse

11. on 04 Jan 2008 at 4:21 pm   Jesse Johnson

    Truth Unites…,

    I’m not sure you have to judge someone’s salvation when doing evangelism necessarily (although discernment is always helpful). If someone claims to be a Christian, and you have a relationship with them, you probably have the ability to speak into their life. If they are living in sin, you can confront sin. In this sense, perseverance goes hand in glove with church discipline. If a person refuses to repent from sin, our Lord gave us a process for dealing with that. If the person gets put out of a church, they are to be treated as an unbeliever (1 Cor 5:12).

    Jesse

12. on 04 Jan 2008 at 4:48 pm   Thomas Twitchell

    “then the question simply becomes one of whether or not their life is generating the fruit promised to those who truly put their faith in Christ”

    I do not think that that quite answered TUAD’s question. Paul’s instruction is that we are to not judge by outward appearance. Compare that to the judicial responsibility of the Church, then we are to judge their behavior as not keeping with true doctrine, therefore we treat them as an unbeliever, while making no determination about the person’s vital union with Christ. That separating of the wheat and tares, sheep and goats is reserved to the heavenly authority. On the other hand, since the attributes of a saint are both confession and practice, both should line up. Qualitatively there is no difference between a brother who is sexually immoral and a gossip, or a brother who has uncontrolled anger, and one who takes an unnecessary helping of food at the potluck. There is wisdom in the way we deal with each accordingly, but sin is sin, and there are sins of the heart of which you are not even aware which follow a man and do not precede him.

    The question then must become the exercise of the Word, and not from the confessor, but from the ecclesia. Discipline should expose the false professor, and after many admonitions if the brother is unrepentant, the Church when it is gathered as one, should put the person out. This is familiar to Paul’s statements, that for Timothy he was to have nothing to do such, and that he himself had turn some over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh, that perhaps God would grand them repentance. It simply was not Paul’s business to pronounce them unsaved, but in hopes that they truly are, he disciplined them. It is something that he did not do with the world.

    The bottom line is that God has given us the ministry of reconciliation, not that we stand in the place of the Judge, but that we excercise proper authority in the preaching of the Gospel. Part of that Gospel is that we are to purge out the leaven. There should be no difference in the message we preach, but there is a difference in the way that we handle the confessor and those in opposition the the Truth who are in the world.

    These things though do not really address perserverance, as the Wesleyan said, they “fear” that if they do not keep the law they will lose their salvation by an attrition process born of an attitude that says if you know you cannot lose, you will snoose and eventually lose. But, as the WCF and LBCFII make clear and as the Scripture also clearly states, the law is still binding, and anyone who teaches otherwise is to be condemned. The difference is love and truth working itself out in love. Keeping the law out of obligation is not love. It is keeping statutes written upon stone. But, for the believer, the love of God has been spread abroad in his heart. Statutes now are written in flesh and blood, particularly the flesh and blood of Christ who has been given to us to be in us, and if in us, then his seed remains and he cannot sin. Christ cannot deny himself. Since we have been given the heart of the Son, and not a heart that is foreign to the love of God, but one with it, it will always do that thing which it was sent to do, and will not return to him void. It is the living Word who has taken up residence in us, the Word of life, who cannot die, for death has no part in him. If this is the case and it is, then who can be against us, for even if our hearts condemn us, he will not, it is Christ who justifies, and not we. Yes, we can fall in to sin, yes we can doubt our security because of it, but faith is not about what we do. It is not founded upon our decisions, nor our intellectual ascent to rules and regulations or even the message of the Gospel, but upon the sure foundation which no man can lay, that is Christ. It is founded upon his declaration, and one that went forth from the foundations of the world. We were not saved from the wrath of God when we first believed. That wrath was propitiated on Calvary. It was then that the sins that we would sins were atoned for. And, if they were atoned for even before we were born, then all sin was met and defeated on Calvary on behalf of the elect. Not just some, but all. For the blood of Christ is not some common thing, but it was that which secured sanctification and redemption, once and for all. It really is those who believe that Christ’s blood was not sufficient that Hebrews is addressing when it says if they fall away, for what else, what other sacrifice will suffice if the blood of Christ does not? Neither your keeping of the law, nor faith is what is being judged by the Judge of the Universe. It is the finished work of Christ in which the Father is well pleased and welcomes all those he has given him. If Christ could fail to raise from the dead, then your salvation could fail. But, that very power that was working in Christ is the same that works in all that are his now. And if he raised Christ from the dead, he will also with him give life to your mortal body, freely, a coheir, now and forever seated with him in the heavenlies.

    How humbling.

13. on 04 Jan 2008 at 5:26 pm   Truth Unites... and Divides

    “If they are living in sin, you can confront sin.”

    Jesse, I don’t think this gets done much. We live in “Thou Shalt Not Judge” culture. Plus the laity wants to kick the spiritual cop role up to the pastor. The pastor doesn’t want to confront the sin either because there’s a good probability that it’ll cause division, and some powerful families with wealthy pockets might take exception to the pastor confronting sin, and the pastor might lose his job as a result of this, so then the pastor kinda hopes that the on-going sin goes away by itself. Meanwhile, the lay person who didn’t want to do the “dirty” work himself or herself gets upset with the pastor for not doing what she thinks the office-holder of pastor should do and then gossips to his/her friends that the current pastor is weak on disciplining blatantly sinning sheep and that the pastor is a de facto enabler of sin. Then the pastor gets upset with all the murmuring going on, and….

    Isn’t Church community life fun!

14. on 05 Jan 2008 at 8:10 am   Eddie

    Truth,
    In your above post……been there, done that, got a t-shirt and wrote a song about it. maybe I can croon it for ya some time…:-)
    Eddie

15. on 05 Jan 2008 at 10:11 am   Truth Unites... and Divides

    Eddie, write to me at truthunites@hotmail.com and send me the lyrics. Sounds like a realistic song with overtones of sadness laced within.

16. on 05 Jan 2008 at 10:20 am   Truth Unites... and Divides

    “Praise the Lord that my perseverance is not up to me!”

    Robert, I’ve been thinking about this and I still am comforted by this. My election is not up to me, and neither is my perseverance.

    I’ve been re-reading the Book of Job in my quiet time. I’m happily assuming that Job is a historically factual account. (I have had conversations with a Byzantine Catholic and a United Methodist that Job was a fictional narrative. By disagreeing, I got slapped with the label of being a “fundamentalist” and a “literalist”).

    Bear with me. Job was elect. And God elected Job to persevere. So then when the Adversary went to make a bet with God about whether Job would renounce God, well God knew in advance what would happen. After all, God knows everything contra Open Theism. So the game was rigged against Satan at the beginning!

    God elected Job to persevere. Satan loses. Ha, ha. Pardon me, but I think that’s kinda funny. And I love it.

17. on 05 Jan 2008 at 10:47 am   Morris Brooks

    I John 2:19 says, “They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

    Kent Hughes in his commentary on Colossians says, “Apostasy can come to those who appear to be the best of Christians.”

    There are those who are tares among the wheat, perservance is one of the winnowing rods of the Lord.

18. on 05 Jan 2008 at 5:09 pm   Daniel Chaney

    Vince,

    You said, “Yes. Perseverance is man’s responsibility.”

    Like salvation itself, perseverance is a matter of perspectives. From our perspective salvation and perseverance are our work, but from God’s perspective both are already determined and fully settled before the foundation of the world and therefore not “our responsibility”.

19. on 08 Jan 2008 at 8:32 am   Ray B

    The glorious promises and blessings of Romans 8 are for those who are in Christ and live by the Spirit and not by the flesh. Live by the Spitit , not by the flesh and nothing can seperate you from the love of God.

20. on 08 Jan 2008 at 9:25 am   Mike

    Being in Christ and living by the Spirit and not by the flesh are effects, not causes.

    “Those of you who are sovereignly justified, be encouraged! Because that same inconquerable sovreeignty that justified you will keep you, sanctify you, work and will within you (Phil 2:12) such that you’ll work out your salvation with fear and trembling, and then ultimately glorify you! If God is the one who justifies sovereignly not based on works, who is the one who condemns? Who is the one who can snatch the sheep from His hand (John 10:24ff)? No one, nothing, can separate us from Christ!”

21. on 08 Jan 2008 at 10:29 am   Ray B

    Christians are commanded to live by the Spirit. We have no obligation to the flesh. Romans 8 : 13 and 14 :” For if you live according to the flesh , you will die ; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body , you will live. ”
    Live by the Spirit. If you live by the Spirit then nothing will seperate you from God. Free choice.

22. on 08 Jan 2008 at 10:32 am   Daniel Chaney

    Just as the obtaining of salvation was not based on our works or our performance but on God’s sovereign work, so our perseverance is not based on our works or performance but on God’s sorvereign work. If salvation is all of God and none of man, then perseverance must be the same.

23. on 08 Jan 2008 at 10:39 am   Daniel Chaney

    Ray,

    Rom 8:38-39: “For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

    Not even our unfaithfulness can separate us from God’s love. He loved us even when we hated Him. Who can lay anything to our charge? God has justified us, no one can condemn us. Those who God has predestined to salvation will be glorified. Praise God.

24. on 08 Jan 2008 at 10:42 am   Ray B

    In salvation man must respond to it. Faith, repentance , confession, baptism , all required ,are essential for salvation.Our obedience does not negate God and His sovereignty

25. on 08 Jan 2008 at 12:01 pm   Truth Unites... and Divides

    Why I Rejected Christianity: A Former Apologist Explains

    This is the title of a book that I just chanced upon this morning when I was surfing.

    Here’s an excerpt from the Amazon website:

    I graduated from Great Lakes Bible College, Lansing Michigan, in 1977. Afterwards I became the Associate Minister under Eddie Bratton in Kalkaska, Michigan, for two years. Then I attended Lincoln Christian Seminary, Lincoln, IL, and graduated in 1982 with M.A. and M.Div. degrees, under the mentoring of Dr. James D. Strauss. After this I attended Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, and graduated in 1985 with a Th.M degree, under the mentoring of Dr. William Lane Craig. I also took classes at Marquette University in a Ph.D. program with a double major in Philosophy and Ethics, but didn’t finish. At Marquette I studied with Dr. Ron Feenstra, Dr. Marc Greisbach, and Dr. Daniel MaGuire. I have taught extension classes for Lincoln Christian College, Lincoln, IL, and I taught for Great Lakes Christian College, Lansing, Michigan, for the College of Lake County, in Grayslake, IL, for Tri-State University, Angola, IN, and for Kellogg Community College, Battle Creek, ! MI. I was in the “Who’s Who Among America’s Teachers” in 1996.

    From December of 1987 to December of 1990 I was the Senior Minister of the Angola Christian Church, Angola, IN, and for a year was the President of the Steuben County Ministerial Association. Before that I had several ministries in Michigan, Wisconsin and Illinois. I was in the ministry for about fourteen years, or so, and wrote many articles for the Christian weekly magazine, The Christian Standard.

    How have I gone from being a defender of Christianity to an atheist? That is the question of this book. I was a Christian apologist set for the express purpose of defending Christianity from intellectual attacks. I was not afraid of any idea, because I was convinced that Christianity was true and could withstand all attacks. Now I turn that same intellectual muscle into questioning the things I formerly defended.

    From: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1412076811/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

    Question: If this fellow never repents, then he did not persevere. Arguably, he did bear “fruit” for awhile. So did he lose his salvation? Or did he never have salvation in the beginning? This is a conundrum for me. (But I still like the assertion from above that my perseverance, just like my election, is up to God.)

26. on 08 Jan 2008 at 2:18 pm   Ray B

    Yes , he will lose his salvation if he does not repent. Hebrews 10 : 26- 31 is enough of a scripture to teach that he is in great danger. If he repents before he dies and listens to Jesus , follows him , loves him ,obeys him , then nothing can seperate the man from God.And those who listen , follow, and obey, are not being saved by works of merit or the law but responding to the grace of God. They truly love and appreciate their salvation and are protected by falling when they make their calling and election sure through obedient faith.

27. on 08 Jan 2008 at 2:50 pm   Truth Unites... and Divides

    Yes , he will lose his salvation if he does not repent.

    Ray B., are you an Arminian? I thought Reform or Calvinism teaches that you can’t lose salvation.

28. on 08 Jan 2008 at 2:50 pm   Mike

    TUAD,

    You essentially asked, “What happens when someone who identifies himself with Christianity gives up and leaves?” I know of no other place that speaks so directly to that question as 1 John 2:19. He never had salvation in the beginning. 1 John 2:19 makes it clear: Those who go out from us show that they were never really of us. Even though I know you know this verse, especially cuz it’s been quoted over and over again on this and other threads, no one on the opposing side of this question has dealt with that passage honestly.

29. on 08 Jan 2008 at 3:36 pm   Ray B

    Truth ,
    I am a Christian ,loyal to Jesus Christ. And the authority of scripture. I reject Calvinism. The scripture and especailly Hebrews teaches the possibility of apostasy , even for the believer. Scripture does teach and gives numerous passages to help any Christian stay saved and not depart.

30. on 08 Jan 2008 at 6:33 pm   Daniel Chaney

    Ray,

    I believe that if someone who has claimed to be a Christian openly turns from the faith, this man will be punished in hell for his sins, because they have not been forgiven. You believe that if someone who has claimed to be a Christian openly turns from the faith, this man will be punished in hell for sins that God had forgiven. How do you support the view that God will punish forgiven sins?

31. on 08 Jan 2008 at 7:22 pm   Ray B

    Daniel ,
    I have made it clear that I am talking about what scripture says concerning an apostate Christian.

32. on 09 Jan 2008 at 5:30 am   Truth Unites... and Divides

    apostasy - the state of having rejected your religious beliefs or your political party or a cause (often in favor of opposing beliefs or causes)

    An online dictionary definition. Hmmmm, I scrolled back up and saw the comment about Kent Hughes commentary on apostasy. It appears to me that there’s not even agreement between Calvinism and Arminianism on the definition of apostasy.

    If I’m understanding this correctly, Calvinists are saying that apostasy happens to folks who are *professing* Christians, not genuine or true Christians (ala 1 John 2:19). These professing Christians can even appear to be the best of Christians. And so apostasy can only occur to these *professing* Christians.

    Whereas on the other hand, Arminians are saying that *real* Christians, not just “professing” Christians can fall away from saving faith. And when this occurs, that is what the Scriptures define as apostasy.

    Have I captured the differences here correctly?

33. on 09 Jan 2008 at 6:53 am   Daniel Chaney

    Truth,

    I think that this is the difference of belief in this line of discussion.

    Ray,

    A Christian, whose sins have been forgiven at his conversion, cannot turn from the faith. God does not punish forgiven sins.

34. on 09 Jan 2008 at 8:32 am   Ray B

    Daniel ,
    Scripture disagress that a converted Christian , forgiven at conversion , cannot turn away. The warning scriptures in Hebrews alone teach that a Christian can fall away.
    Right . God does not punish forgiven sins. Never have doubted God’s gift of forgiveness. Sins that are not covered in the blood of Jesus will remin unforgiven. When a Christin sins then they must confess those sisn and walk in the light . And the blood continues to cleanse. If , however a Christian stays in sin , refuses to repent and lives in constant rebellion to God , then salvation can be lost. Again , the warning passages from Hebrews 2,3 6 and 10. There are other passages. There is no reason for a Christian to get into such a sinful life without the free will choice to do so.

35. on 09 Jan 2008 at 8:38 am   Truth Unites... and Divides

    Thanks Daniel Chaney.

    If so, then if I’m understanding this correctly, apostasy and apostates are simply wolves within the Church. And since they never had true salvific faith to begin with, they can’t abandon, lose, or turn away from something which they never had or possessed in the first place.

    In turn, preaching against apostates and apostate teaching is simply preaching against faux Christians and a false teaching. They are poseurs if you will. And if some folks are attracted to apostate teaching and fall away too, then they are apostates too, and were never Christians to begin with either.

    Parable of the 4 Soils.

36. on 09 Jan 2008 at 9:01 am   Daniel Chaney

    Ray,

    You said, “Sins that are not covered in the blood of Jesus will remin unforgiven.”

    Am I understanding you wrong, or did you really mean to say that that the blood of Christ only covers sins committed up to the point of salvation and not after?

37. on 09 Jan 2008 at 9:06 am   Ray B

    Truth ,
    In the parable of the soils there are two kinds of hearts that do receive the word and then fall away. A warning passage from Jesus to encourage us to be like the good heart that hears the word, retains it and by perserverance produce spiritual fruit. Produce the fruit of the Spirit and live by that fruit and you will not fall. Produce the fruit of holiness and righteousness ( Roamns 6 : 19 ) and live by the Spirit ( Romans 8 : 4 ) and not by the flesh , put to death the misdeeds of the body , ( Romans 8 : 13 ) , love God , (Romans 8 : 28) , then God will work all things together for your good, you will not be seperated from God and you will be more than a conqueror, ( Roamns 8 : 28- 39.) Again , it is a free choice.
    A very good discussion.

38. on 09 Jan 2008 at 9:35 am   Ray B

    Daniel ,
    No . Go back and read the post again.

39. on 09 Jan 2008 at 9:56 am   Truth Unites... and Divides

    I’d like to get feedback on my logic in the following statement(s):

    If apostates are in the Church (or even outside I suppose) and they woo others (hidden apostates) to follow them and become visible apostates, then what’s the big deal since “they were never one of us.”?

    It just seems like the winnowing of the wheat and tares started…

40. on 09 Jan 2008 at 10:53 am   Daniel Chaney

    Ray,

    You said, “sins that are not covered in the blood of Jesus…” What did you mean by this?

    You said, “In the parable of the soils there are two kinds of hearts that do receive the word and then fall away.”

    In the parable of the sowers, only one of the soils was saved, three were not. Only those that bear the fruit of the Spirit are of the Spirit.

41. on 10 Jan 2008 at 8:17 am   Ray B

    Daniel ,
    The explantion is in the text of I John , that I commented on in the post.
    I agree , only one was saved. The one who heard the word,retained it and by perserverance produced fruit.

42. on 10 Jan 2008 at 8:20 am   Ray B

    The parable of the soils is another example of choice. Only one made the right choice and persevered by listening, retaining and producing fruit. Continual action . When anyone does all 3 on a continual basis then they will stay saved.

43. on 10 Jan 2008 at 9:05 am   Daniel Chaney

    Ray,

    You said, “Only one made the right choice and persevered by listening, retaining and producing fruit. Continual action . When anyone does all 3 on a continual basis then they will stay saved.”

    Doesn’t that sound like a works-based salvation and perseverance to you? It is God that worketh in us, causing us to will and do of His good pleasure. We cannot claim credit for persevering when God is the one that keeps us.

44. on 10 Jan 2008 at 11:52 am   Ray B

    Daniel ,
    That same passage also says we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

45. on 10 Jan 2008 at 12:20 pm   Daniel Chaney

    Ray,

    Phi 2:13-14 says, “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

    These two verses seem to be in contradiction on the surface, but if we see that working vs. 13 is our perspective and vs. 14 is God’s, they make perfect sense together. “work our your own salvation” cannot mean that we have the ability to gain or keep our salvation in and of ourselves, because this would be a clear contradiction of other scripture. I believe that “work out your own salvation” means that we are to be about the things that accompany salvation, such as becoming more like Christ. Is this something that we do? Yes, but it is God that worketh in us, such that we choose to do it.

46. on 10 Jan 2008 at 2:47 pm   Ray B

    Daniel ,
    Working out our salvation is a personal responsiblity. Each person will have to decide to accept or reject. And God woks with us. There is a free human choice that if it is taken God will aid that person in their choce.

47. on 10 Jan 2008 at 3:04 pm   Daniel Chaney

    Ray,

    Working out our salvation is the process of spiritual growth. It takes a heart that only God can cleanse, a mind that only God can renew, a desire that only God can give, and the power that only God has. We cannot make such a choice without the Holy Spirit’s influence. Agree or disagree?

48. on 10 Jan 2008 at 3:37 pm   Ray B

    Working out salvation is the responsiblity of each believer to make sure they make sure they obey God to the end. With help from the Father , the Son and the Holy Spirit.

49. on 10 Jan 2008 at 8:15 pm   Daniel Chaney

    Ray,

    Exactly! Our decisions are influenced by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

50. on 12 Jan 2008 at 12:31 pm   Ray B

    Daniel ,
    Right. Influenced through the word then there is the decision to either heed the instruction OF the word or reject.

51. on 12 Jan 2008 at 1:06 pm   Daniel Chaney

    Ray,

    Our decision to heed the instruction of the Word is influenced by the Holy Spirit. Even our ability to understand the instruction of the Word comes from the Holy Spirit.

52. on 13 Jan 2008 at 2:44 pm   Ray B.

    Daniel ,
    Even those times that a Christian will sin ? Is everything we do as Christians guided by miraculous intervention ?

53. on 13 Jan 2008 at 9:23 pm   Daniel Chaney

    Ray,

    Without miraculous intervention, the only thing that we could choose to do is sin.

54. on 14 Jan 2008 at 8:31 am   Ray B.

    Daniel ,
    I think we will have to agree to disagree on on some of these discussions. It has been good.

55. on 14 Jan 2008 at 9:11 am   Daniel Chaney

    Ray,

    I think so to. Thanks for your part in the discussion. However, I am confident that God, who has apparently begun a good work in you, will perform it until the day of Christ. Continue to study this out, and never settle into a passive faith.

56. on 14 Jan 2008 at 2:33 pm   KC

    But Ray,
    You didn’t give a comment on verse 14? For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

57. on 14 Jan 2008 at 4:30 pm   Ray B.

    KC ,
    As we live in harmony with God and His will , He helps us in the responsiblity to obey. And gives us free will to choose to obey or not. We express our love for Him in obeying His will. I John 5 : 3.

58. on 14 Jan 2008 at 8:22 pm   Daniel Chaney

    Ray,

    If God’s help is not enough to ensure our obedience, then we are all in very serious trouble, don’t you think?

59. on 15 Jan 2008 at 11:17 am   Ray B..

    Daniel ,
    God has given us everything we need. If we sin does that mean God has not helped us ? It is a free choice everyday.

60. on 16 Jan 2008 at 10:49 am   Daniel Chaney

    Ray,

    I agree, we make choices every day that impact our future as well as others’. We need to choose to obey God, because He has given us everything that we need to know to do so. Without God’s divine intervention, I would choose to do only evil continually. Without God’s sustaining me, I would only choose to leave Him. That is the extent of my nature. Thank God that He has placed in me a new nature. I still struggle with the old nature, but I can now choose to do good. This, however, is the Holy Spirit’s work in me, therefore I cannot claim credit for my choices.

61. on 17 Jan 2008 at 11:40 am   Ray B.

    Daniel ,
    When a Christian does sin , has the Holy Spirit failed ?

62. on 17 Jan 2008 at 4:58 pm   Daniel Chaney

    Ray,

    When a Christian sins, that is evidence that he has not gotten rid of the old nature that can only choose to do evil continually. This is what I can take credit for. However, we know that we cannot lose the Holy Spirit.

63. on 21 Jan 2008 at 10:18 am   Ray B.

    Daniel ,
    Are you saying that only those who have a sinful nature as Christians are the only Christians that will ever sin ?
    IS it True then , that the elect will not sin ? This is becoming more confusing all the time . I can only guess that maybe I am not one of the elect.

64. on 21 Jan 2008 at 10:56 am   Daniel Chaney

    Ray,

    I am afraid you misunderstood my comment. I was not saying that if a Christian sins, that he is not saved. I was saying that we will not get rid of our old nature until we are glorified. No Christian is perfect. Every Christian will continue to struggle with sin. Only those who, by the Holy Spirit, are being sanctified (becoming more like Christ) are truly the sons of God. A Christian has two natures waring within. One is our sin nature that we inherit at birth. This nature can only choose to sin. The second nature is inherited when we are born again (notice that neither birth was a result of our choice). This nature is the nature of Christ that can only choose to do good. Now we have two natures, both contrary to the other. This is a constant struggle.

65. on 26 Jan 2008 at 1:48 pm   Ray B.

    Daniel ,
    I was going back and reading old posts and came across this earlier discussion. I am more confused by what you say now. Twice you talk about a choice being made and a daily struggle. It seems to me that the elect would not have such a struggle since they are the only ones being helped into a life of sanctification. Is there choice or not ? Or are we just supernaturally chosen and then miraculously guided all the way , the elect. I say again ; poor non-elect.

66. on 02 Feb 2008 at 7:28 am   Daniel Chaney

    Ray,

    Everyone has a struggle with sin. Those who overcome it do so because of the Holy Spirit’s working in them. We cannot see the Holy Spirit, and therefore it may seem as if we ourselves were able to overcome sin. It may seem that our decision was not caused by God, but this is our perspective.

    You asked, “Is there choice or not ?”

    My answer is yes. There is a sense in which it is our choice, and there is a sense in which it is not. But again, I have already explained this, and I do not want to be redundant. Knowing your belief about inherited sin, that is an issue that forms the foundation for your belief about salvation. This discussion is just the surface. Your belief about inherited sin is what should be addressed first.

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