Giving me verses that you say don’t support my view(although there could be some argument about that), will never do anything to invalidate my view.

You said, “I believe it’s God’s will and purpose to present the gospel to every man for the purpose of saving his or her soul. He takes no pleasure in the death of one sinner. He desires every man to repent and be saved.”

I agree, but there is something that God wants even more than He wants to save everyone, and you would have to agree with this, so that is not a valid argument against my view since it goes against yours as well. If God wants all to be saved, then in order for all NOT to be saved, God would have to choose not to save all, right?

“Christ shed His blood for the remission of the sins of every soul in the whole world.”

I have already given my thoughts on this.

As far as Eph. 1:12-14, I have not even interpreted these verses. Vs. 14 “Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Do you know what I take that to mean? I take it to mean that the Holy Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. What is a purchased possession? It does not take an interpretation to know that a purchased possession is something that has been bought and is now owned by the purchaser. It does not take an interpretation to know that an earnest is a guaruntee. Putting those DEFINITIONS (not interpretations) together, I come up with this: God owns us becuase He has bought us. The Holy Spirit is a guaruntee that we will receive our inheritance. This is not an interpretation, this is plain reading.

Your brother in Christ,
Daniel Chaney

Ps 5:4 – For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

(I don’t see what this scripture has to do with election or predestination.)

Ps 45:7 – Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

(This scripture pertains to Christ.)

Jo 17:6 – I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

(This scripture is Jesus praying to the Father about making himself known to the 11 disciples/apostles. The Father gave them to Jesus and Jesus said they kept His word. This is true of every “BELIEVER.” We know that no man comes to God, except he be drawn by God. Jesus, in Jo 6:44 says, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” The scriptures clearly reveal that God attempts to draw all men to Christ, not just the ones that come to Christ.)

Ro 8:29-30 – For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

(Paul is referring to all who have answered God’s call to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. God is God. He knows the end from the start. I do not see how anyone can turn these scriptures into God wants some saved, so He saves them, and they go to heaven. God does not want to save the rest, so He doesn’t, and He sends them to hell. God wants all men saved…period. Most won’t be saved because they refuse to believe on the one the Father has sent to them–His Son Jesus Christ…period.)

Ro 1:18-32 – Too long to type.

(Not one these verses remotely hints at God choosing some people for salvation and rejecting the rest before the foundation of the world. Not one single verse says it or implies it.)

Col 1:15-20 – [15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[19] For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
[20] And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

(Again, not one of these verses implies that God has chosen some while rejecting the rest.)

Eph 1:12-14 – [12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

(There are too many scriptures that oppose “your interpretation” of these verses. I have given you more than enough to show why I don’t agree with your interpretation. The Bible validates itself line by line, precept upon precept. Many other scriptures invalidate your interpretation of Eph 1:12-14.)

Eph 4:30 – And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

(Please see response directly above.)

Daniel, this discussion has run it course for me. We have to agree to disagree. I have meditated on your interpretation of the elect, predestination, etc., and asked God for insight on your interpretation. I have sincerely given it thought. Honestly, this interpretation of salvation does not bear witness in me. If it is the truth, I know the Father will reveal it to me to be so. As it stands right now, I believe it’s God’s will and purpose to present the gospel to every man for the purpose of saving his or her soul. He takes no pleasure in the death of one sinner. He desires every man to repent and be saved. Christ shed His blood for the remission of the sins of every soul in the whole world. But because men loved sin more than righteousness, they would not accept the Father’s offer of peace with Him through Christ; thereby, missing out on eternal life and receiving the “JUST” recompense of their rejecting of the Father and His Son.

It has been a pleasure discussing this topic. May God continue to bless each and every one of you. There’s no doubt in my mind that each of you is my brother in Christ and that you have my best interest in mind…as I have yours.

V/r

Curtis

God Bless!

If you will look carefully at the two view you described, both are scriptural views. I have shown many times how I believe they work together in such a way as to not deminish the other, but I am not sure that you understood what I was saying. The first one you described was completely God’s view, as it did not say anything about man’s choices. The second was completely man’s view, as all it talked about was man’s choices. Both are in scripture, and I believe that one is God’s view and one is man’s view. Do you understand the “perspectives” that I have brought up many times?

I for one have learned much through this discussion about what I believe and why I believe it. I believe that people on both sides can be just as good of Christians. I have enjoyed this discussion.

The Doctrine of Details:

Over the last couple weeks I have been thinking about our extensive discussion on this article. (I am not sure, as I have not checked, but it would not surprise me if this was not the longest discussion on this blog.) It seems that we have approached this subject from every conceivable angle, using just about every verse that could possibly relate. We have each made our points, restated them, reworded them, backed them with different scripture and tried to prove our doctrine. Now, 300+ comments later, it does not seem like anyone has changed what they believe. But, speaking for myself, I do feel like this has been good for me. I have learned from each of you and been challenged to search the scripture. I know more than when I started and that is good.

As I stepped back and looked at what each of us were saying about some issues, one thing seemed to surface. In some of the issues, though we have different beliefs as to how it happened or who was responsible for it happening, when it was over, the net result was not very different. For instance –

Some believe that God predestined those who would become “true” believers, that He placed the Holy Spirit in them and drew them unto Him unto conversion. That He then takes each of those and leads them all the way to glorification, with no loses along the way. They believe that any professing believer that does not make it through sanctification, to glorification, is exposed as never to have been a true believer because true believers cannot fall away. The net result is that believers that follow God and are led by the Spirit end up glorified and spending eternity with God.

Others believe that God foreknew who would choose to respond to the calling and those He predestined. As those people do respond, they are born again and begin their walk with God with the Holy Spirit leading them. They believe that we are to be overcomers, endure to the end, not be deceived to the point of falling away and this we can do as we submit to the Spirit. They believe that along this path, man still maintains a will that leaves him able to reject God, just as he was able to accept God. Those that endure to the end will be saved. The net result is that believers that follow God and are led by the Spirit end up glorified and spending eternity with God.

Whether we are believers or true believers, when we follow after God, we will see each other in Heaven. Sometimes our doctrines of details may keep us from seeing the big picture and realizing we are all brothers who love God and expect to see Jesus.

Forgive me if I misstated your belief in some way, but I tried to sum it up in a brief paragraph, as best I understand. Thanks guys. I am not signing off and will continue to check back here and respond, but it does seem like we have fairly well covered this issue.

Mike F

With the definition of “earnest” that you have given, (a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest) if God has promised, by giving us the Holy Spirit, that He will pay the rest, will He not pay it?

You said, “Do you believe that we will ever, in this life, be just like Christ, without any sin?”

NO.

You said, “If not, then according to what you are saying, the Holy Spirit failed to accompolish his job. Christ-likeness is perfection in this life.”

Christ-likeness is NOT perfection in this life. We will achieve Christ-likeness in heaven. The work that was begun in us at conversion will be completed at the day of Christ; not before, but it will most certainly be completed.

You said, “This is all based on your denial that man has any responsibility for working out his own salvation.”

Again, I am absolutely NOT saying that man does nothing. It is just that what man does is a response, not a cause.

You said, “I do believe that the Holy Spirit is working within us to make us more like Christ-holy, but until we get rid of the old nature that is at war with us, we will not quite get there.”

I agree 100%. We will not get there in this life, but we will most certainly get there.

You said, “My point is, that just because we do not quite get there, it does not mean the Holy Spirit has failed.”

I am not quite sure what your meaning is here. Do you mean to say that “just because we do not quite get there in this life” or “just because we do not quite get there and fall short”

You said, “If you agree, then how about stop jumping to that conclusion about the things we say, when it is clear that is not what we mean.”

It may not be what you mean, but it is a necessary conclusion. The Holy Spirit’s job is not to make us Christ-like in this life, so if (when) this does not happen, it does not mean that the Holy Spirit failed, since this was not His job. However, Christ’s job IS to lose none, so if He loses even one, He did fail His job. The Holy Spirit’s job IS to continue the work begun in us and to complete it at the day of Christ, so if He stops working in us (for any reason), He did fail His job.

You said, “You then quoted what you said was how the BIBLE defines election. I repeat, you said the BIBLE has this quoted defination. I am sorry, but what you had in quotations is not a part of the BIBLE.”

I apologize, this is the Greek definition.

You said, “Daniel, us submitting to the Holy Spirit’s leading is not us keeping ourselves saved.”

I realize that, it is God working in us both to desire and choose His good pleasure (whatever He desires).

You said, “I assume you mean that you cannot choose to do good, submit to the Holy Spirit, without God’s help. But, you do have God’s help, the Holy Spirit is in you, giving you that help.”

Exactly! So is it the Holy Spirit’s work, or my decision? Could I make such a decision without that help? No. So it is God not I that chooses.

I realize what you are saying and why you are saying it. From our perspective, we have a “free” will; but from God’s perspective, we are nothing but vessels fitted for whatever He decides. I understand your view, but do you see how this works?

You had just said that, “If the Holy Spirit is our guaruntee that we will receive our inheritance, then if we don’t receive it, the guaruntee was no good.” It sounded like you were referring to the verse that tells us the HS has been given to us as an earnest, II Cor. 1:22. Strong’s has this to say about earnest:

G728 ἀῤῥαβών arrhabōn ar-hrab-ohn’
Of Hebrew origin [H6162]; a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest: – earnest.

So, it is a one-way promise, just as I stated above. God is giving us, as it were, a security deposit that backs up His ability to deliver the rest of the promise. As I said, a pledge or security deposit is binding on the person who gives it.

In response to what you just wrote to Ray, the Holy Spirit does not fail if someone falls away. I know that is what you believe, but the only way the Holy Spirit would fail is if He did not fulfill His promise to be our guide, our comforter, provide us with the strength to do what is right, etc. If we fail, it is not His fault, it is our fault. He is there and willing and able to do His part, we just have to yield to His leading. If He stopped leading and left us on our own, to do it in our strength, then He would not have done what was promised. What does it mean to quench the Holy Spirit?

You said, “The Holy Spirit is the means of sanctification, which is the PROCESS of becoming like Christ. If we sin, this shows that our ultimate goal (Christ-likeness) has not yet been achived.”

Do you believe that we will ever, in this life, be just like Christ, without any sin? If not, then according to what you are saying, the Holy Spirit failed to accompolish his job. Christ-likeness is perfection in this life. You just said that the HS is not a means to perfection in this life, but then tell us that it is his job to get us like Christ. You throw out phrases like: …then are you saying that God failed, Jesus failed, the Holy Spirit failed… This is all based on your denial that man has any responsibility for working out his own salvation. Don’t get me wrong, I do believe that the Holy Spirit is working within us to make us more like Christ-holy, but until we get rid of the old nature that is at war with us, we will not quite get there. My point is, that just because we do not quite get there, it does not mean the Holy Spirit has failed. If you agree, then how about stop jumping to that conclusion about the things we say, when it is clear that is not what we mean.

You then quoted what you said was how the BIBLE defines election. I repeat, you said the BIBLE has this quoted defination. I am sorry, but what you had in quotations is not a part of the BIBLE.

Daniel, us submitting to the Holy Spirit’s leading is not us keeping ourselves saved.

Where is the line drawn as to where you have an ability or a will and can choose to do things, like respond to us, and to where you cannot choose to do things, like good? What is submitting to the leading of the Holy Spirit, if it is not choosing to follow him-do good? If we have a choice to do good or sin, then we have a choice!!! You said, “to say that I can choose to do good apart from God’s working???” I assume you mean that you cannot choose to do good, submit to the Holy Spirit, without God’s help. But, you do have God’s help, the Holy Spirit is in you, giving you that help. But it does not mean that you will submit to that help. If you do not, the Spirit did not fail, he was there and able, you failed.

You said, “I guess since I strongly believe in personal free choice I must be one of the non-elect in your perspective.”

Not at all. I strongly believe that there are godly men on both sides of this issue, who seek to please God with their lives and become more like Christ every day.

You said, “I have already asked you , when a Christian sins if the Holy Spirit fails us but you never answered.”

No, the Holy Spirit does not fail if we sin, the Holy Spirit fails if we fall away completely. In the Bible, the Holy Spirit is not presented as a means to perfection in this life, but the next. The Holy Spirit is the means of sanctification, which is the PROCESS of becoming like Christ. If we sin, this shows that our ultimate goal (Christ-likeness) has not yet been achived.

You said, “Actually our basic big difference is not in what God does or does not do for us. Is is if each person is given free will and how you define election.”

Actually our difference is indeed in what God does or does not do for us. I believe that Christ keeps us saved through the Holy Spirit’s working in us both to will and do of His good pleasure. And you believe that Christ does not keep us saved, we keep ourselves saved. This is very much an issue of what God does or does not do. The BIBLE defines election as:

“the act of picking out, choosing; of the act of God’s free will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons; the decree made from choice by which he determined to bless certain persons through Christ by grace alone; a thing or person chosen; of persons: God’s elect”

We are not the elect if we are saved, we are saved if we are the elect (picked out by God).

You said, “The Calvinistic approach leaves us without any real decision making. Those who are saved are arbitrarily saved. The only conclusion to the five points of Calvinism. The non- elect in Calvinistic theology are lost and cannot do anything about being saved. We are all robots and puppets on a string.”

We are not robots at all. We do indeed make genuine decisions that effect our future as well as others’. At this moment I am CHOOSING to respond to you. However, to say that I can choose to do good apart from God’s working??? The choice is from our perspective. I may choose in my mind to accept Christ, but ultimately it is God that directs my decisions (Pr. 16:9). We indeed choose to follow Christ, but it is God that works in us, causing us to will (desire) and do (choose) His good pleasure (Phil 2:13).

You said, “And I like others who have made a similar choice are the elect , the predestined.”

What do you think it means to be predestined?

You said, “Called by the gospel. My faith came by hearing the word .”

You have faith because God has chosen the hearing of the word as the means of giving you that faith.

You said, “Not an arbitrary choice.”

I believe I have said something about the choice being “arbitrary”.