Hebrews 6 and the Loss of Salvation
December 20th, 2007
(By John MacArthur)
Does Hebrews 6:4-6 teach that a true believer can lose his salvation?
No. In that passage, the writer of Hebrews is speaking to the unsaved who have heard the truth and acknowledged it, but who have hesitated to embrace Christ. The Holy Spirit warns them, “You had better come to Christ now, for if you fall away it will be impossible for you to come again to the point of repentance.” They were at the best point for repentance–full knowledge. To fall back from that would be fatal.
Because they believe the warning is addressed to Christians, many interpreters hold that the passage teaches that salvation can be lost. If this interpretation were true, however, the passage would also teach that, once lost, salvation could never be regained. There would be no going back and forth, in and out of grace. But Christians are not being addressed, and it is the opportunity for receiving salvation, not salvation itself, that can be lost.
The believer need never fear he will lose his salvation. He cannot. The Bible is absolutely clear about that. Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand” (John 10:27-29; see also Rom. 8:35-39; Phil. 1:6; and 1 Pet. 1:4-5).
If you are in Christ, rejoice. Your salvation is secure forever.
(Today’s post adapted from the MacArthur New Testament Commentary on Hebrews, p. 146.)
Praise our gracious and merciful God!
This is where the doctrines of grace meet up where any doctrine of human self will falters.
By grace alone are we saved, not on our own merit but by the gift of faith alone. This is a marvel of the Sovereign and Perfect LORD we serve who works ALL things together for good to those that love Him, not because we loved Him first, but because He set His particular love on His elect. A great mystery for the human mind, yet a most humbling and wonderful doctrine of Scripture.
May we all become wellsprings of living water given to preach the Scriptures in season and out of season so that nobody we meet MAY perish in accordance with God’s mercies.
More words explaining why this is not addressing Christians would be appreciated. I do believe Christians do not lose their salvation, but I do not quite understand this passage and I think MacArthur’s explanation is a little lacking.
The passage gives these qualities of the individuals under discussion:
They have been enlightened.
They have tasted the heavenly gift.
They have shared in the Holy Spirit.
They have tasted the goodness of the word of God
and the power of the age to come.
I am not a Calvinist and yet I have difficulty understanding these terms to be describing a non-Christian. I am especially surprised that a Calvinist would see these terms as describing a non-Christian. In the Calvinist view, how could these things take place in one who has not already received the sanctifying work of God?
No, I think these words describe a Christian. He has received and understood the gospel message and the Holy Spirit is active in his life, etc. Paul is speaking to Christians and he is warning them about what they live and do as Christians. It doesn’t make sense for him to jump back to non-Christians. These are not people who were simply at the point of repentance, these were people who had indeed experienced repentance and when they fall they will not be able to be restored to that repentance. All of this language can only be used of Christians.
What I see as a possibility for this passage is that it states a hypothetical. If true believers backtrack in their theology, this hypothetical is the only ultimate destination. They move away from God, not toward God. God in his grace would not let them move so far as to “fall out of grace” but if he did, this would be the result.
Paul often speaks in specific terms about the sins of people – “there are those who live like this, there are those who live like that, and here is the result of these ways of living.” Here he does not do so. He does not say that there are such people as those he describes, he says if there were such people here would be the result. If a Christian were to turn away from the sound teaching of Scripture, the only possible result – but for the grace of God! – is what Paul describes here. By the grace of God there are no such people, none who ultimately and finally fall, but it is a warning for Christians that if we turn from the truth of God we are living as though we wish to fall away from God.
Amen William,
Those who view salvation as an elevator, (we can chose to get on and be saved or not to get on and not be saved) have to deal with the fact that they could also choose to get off the elevator thereby losing their salvation. However, if God is the one that chooses then we can never lose our salvation because He has promised to finish what HE has begun.
This is not the only passage in Hebrews that confuses people into believing they can lose their salvation. One of the keys to understanding the book is recognizing “whom” it is written to. While this is an elementary rule of Bible application, it is often overlooked.
Chris Roberts, I was wondering the same thing.
I found Matthew Henry’s commentary very helpful:
“1. He shows how far persons may go in religion, and, after all, fall away, and perish for ever, Heb_6:4, Heb_6:5.
(1.) They may be enlightened. Some of the ancients understand this of their being baptized; but it is rather to be understood of notional knowledge and common illumination, of which persons may have a great deal, and yet come short of heaven. Balaam was the man whose eyes were opened (Num_24:3), and yet with his eyes opened he went down to utter darkness.
(2.) They may taste of the heavenly gift, feel something of the efficacy of the Holy Spirit in his operations upon their souls, causing them to taste something of religion, and yet be like persons in the market, who taste of what they will not come up to the price of, and so but take a taste, and leave it. Persons may taste religion, and seem to like it, if they could have it upon easier terms than denying themselves, and taking up their cross, and following Christ.
(3.) They may be made partakers of the Holy Ghost, that is, of his extraordinary and miraculous gifts; they may have cast out devils in the name of Christ, and done many other mighty works. Such gifts in the apostolic age were sometimes bestowed upon those who had no true saving grace.
(4.) They may taste of the good word of God; they may have some relish of gospel doctrines, may hear the word with pleasure, may remember much of it, and talk well of it, and yet never be cast into the form and mould of it, nor have it dwelling richly in them.
(5.) They may have tasted of the powers of the world to come; they may have been under strong impressions concerning heaven, and dread of going to hell. These lengths hypocrites may go, and, after all, turn apostates. Now hence observe,
[1.] These great things are spoken here of those who may fall away; yet it is not here said of them that they were truly converted, or that they were justified; there is more in true saving grace than in all that is here said of apostates.
[2.] This therefore is no proof of the final apostasy of true saints. These indeed may fall frequently and foully, but yet they will not totally nor finally from God; the purpose and the power of God, the purchase and the prayer of Christ, the promise of the gospel, the everlasting covenant that God has made with them, ordered in all things and sure, the indwelling of the Spirit, and the immortal seed of the word, these are their security. But the tree that has not these roots will not stand.”
–Jeff
Read Luther’s “Bondage of the Will” and look at the situation of the Rich young Ruler! He understood the Gospel yet could not respond to it. He simply was not elect! The elect cannot reject the gospel so these passages must be talking to the non-believer. James and Jude are examples of those who have even handeled the gospel. Preached it to others yet are not of the elect!
The passage is clearly talking to those who have not yet trusted the message of Christ, eventhough they understand the protocol and practices of those who have been elected to it. If you read on the context is clear that these folks yeild thorns.
I have been trained to write a medical perscription. I have written many of them working in psychiatric settings, however, I am not a doctor. Because of my knowledge I could likely practice medicine, especially psychiatry, with some ease for a time. At some point my lack of true medical training would come to haunt me when I missed a conflicting patient history and gave a drug, or a treatment that might cause organ failure of even death. What if a surgical situation presented itself? Dr. Fraud now is Dr. Death!
My doubt of salvation never was loosing it but HAVING it! Growing up in pastors home, playing church all my life. Then becoming a pastor myself..was I a fake? You cannot loose what you do not have? Again, the rich young ruler knew his plight, what a nightmare!
John Prentice
Scripture Zealot,
Thanks for the quote, it was helpful but I still don’t see the passage referring to unbelievers. The language too much reflects those who have already believed. “restore again to repentance” is the clincher for me. I can’t see this referring to an unbeliever.
John Prentice,
Be careful using words like clearly. If it were clear we would not be having this discussion, unless you wish to insult me by in some way implying that I refuse to see what is clearly in the text.
I’ve read Luther’s Bondage of the Will but I’m not sure how it would help in this situation. The Rich Young Ruler could not be described in the same way as the hypothetical person in Hebrews.
Chris Roberts,
I understand your question regarding this passage. It’s a very good question that must be answered. I also struggled with this when I first began studying the Epistle to the Hebrews in seminary. In my final year, I took an elective Greek class that focused on Hebrews. It was a great class with Dr. Duane Dunham. I believe he wrote hid dissertation on this very question! Perhaps a commentary on Hebrews too.
I agree with Chris that one of the keys to properly interpreting Hebrews is who is the epistle written to primarily? I do believe that all the warning passages should be interpreted with that in mind.
MacArthur’s commentary on Hebrews is a good place to begin to understand his views on this issue. I would also recommend reading Kistemaker’s commentary (the introduction) and also Phillips commentary from the REFORMED EXPOSITORY COMMENTARY series.
In fact, I found it to be a facinating study to read widely from many sources on just who is the target audience the writer is addressing. I think once you take a look at all the various views and consider their arguments, you will likely agree with MacArthur’s view on this. That said, there are still some challenging questions.
Chris Roberts,
The clincher is in verse 9 of Heb. 6,
“But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.”
The author of Hebrews is here comparing his previous comments about those described in vss. 4-6 to these in vs. 9. And in verse 9 one of the contrasts is the fact he is persuaded of better things for them. One of the better things being salvation. So in contrast to those in vss. 4-6 (who aren’t saved) the author of Hebrews reassures his audience of their salvation as compared to the former.
I hope this helps.
Chris Roberts,
To be able to understand the “perseverance of the saints” we must look at all that “salvation” entails.
First, we have regeneration which could be defined as “a secret act of God in which he imparts new spiritual life to us.”
Next, we have Justification which is “a legal declaration concerning our relationship to God’s laws, stating that we are completely forgiven and no longer liable to punishment.”
Next, we have adoption which is “the act of God accepting us into His family.”
Since all of these parts of salvation are completely GOD’S work, in order for man to fall out of grace, God must “unjustify” us or “reimpart” our sin to us, and He must also kick us out of His family. So we see that since man did nothing to get salvation, he can also do nothing to lose it. God has promised to finish the work that He has begun in those He has saved, so we must deny this to say that we can lose our salvation.
I would appreciate a more detailed argument for Pastor MacArthur’ belief that Hebrews 6 is dealing with the unsaved. I do not believe it is dealing with the possibilty of the loss of salvation, but I have a hard time believing it is dealing with the unsaved who are close to salvation but “turn back”. Thank you for the postings, they are encouraging and thought provoking.
Sorry, I agree with Chris on this. Use all the human logic you want to, but the Word of God says:
“Take care, brothers, (note that these are believers) lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” (so) that none of you may be (future tense) hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end (condition). As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” (Hebrews 3:12-15 ESV)
This is only one of many verses that cannot be explained away by Eternal Security. I wish E.S. were true, I really do, but there are too many verses in the Bible that warn believers (not pseudo-believers, as Calvin thinks) to hold fast to what they initially believed, that is their faith. Paul sys “Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,(note that they are saved) and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you–unless you believed in vain.” (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 ESV)
Regarding Hebrews 6:4-6, please look at the verses following those that refer directly to the authors confidence of better things for his audience BECAUSE of the evidences (works, patience and diligence) of their faith. Verses 4-6 address believers (otherwise how could they partake of the Holy Ghost?) who have fallen away (how can they fall from something they were not already holding on to?) and completely rejected the faith as viable. That’s why it doesn’t cover backsliders who have “given up”. Many backsliders have the potential to be restored because Christ affirmed that every sin was forgivable except the one that rejects the truth completely by despising it.
NWProdigal,
Paul is indeed writing to those who he believes are saved, but the only way that he can know for sure that they are indeed saved is if they persevere to the end. If they “fall away” this does not mean that they lost their salvation, it means that they were never saved in the first place.
1Jo 2:19 says, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”
If they had truly been believers they would have persevered, but they did not, which proves (makes manifest) that they were not true believers.
Eph. 1:12-14 says, “That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”
If we are truly sealed (guaranteed) with the Holy Spirit “UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION” then we will persevere until then. To say that someone who is sealed with the Holy Spirit can lose his salvation is to say that the seal itself (the Holy Spirit) is insufficient to keep us.
NWProdigal,
Your comment “use all of the human logic you want to but the word of God says…” is just as biased by “human logic” as any other reading of the text is it not?
You’re implying that what you see in the text should be as plain to us as it is to you…but I’d disagree.
Without a proper word study of the uses of the Greek underlying “enlightened” and “partaken” etc…you are doing anything but reasserting your position right?
Here is just one example of what (I believe it’s Shedd) has to say about it:
“Some have objected that the long description of things that have happened to these people who fall away means that they must have been genuinely born again. But that is not a convincing objection when we look at the individual terms used. The author says they have “once been enlightened” (Heb. 6:4). But this enlightening simply means that they came to understand the truths of the gospel, not that they responded to those truths with genuine saving faith.”
In fact, this word translated “enlightened” (phōtísō) is used to denote “making something known” and BDAG says it’s: “to make known in reference to the inner life”
I don’t think anyone here is debating that these people had the knowledge, they had a “form of Godliness” but that crucial thing…the thing that only God can do…didn’t happen…they weren’t regenerate. The bible is clear that if they had had that happen…there is no way that they would fall away…
And on a personal note: I was just like these described here…I was a “veneer Christian” I did some of the right things…but I was not regenerated by God. It took a couragous brother in Christ to point out to me what I was and to tell me to repent to cause me to see what I was. God chose to save me 2.5 years ago, October.
I guess what the essense of my reply is that we need to prove this one way or the other using exegetical means…not “this seems clear to me”…and I’m not just pointing the finger at you…it’s directed at the whole thread…
Though I will agree with other posters here, many times Johnny Mac doesn’t “bring me along” and show me how he got to what he’s asserting…he just assumes that it’s so and begins there. Many times when I read his material I would like him to explain in more detail how he got to his starting point.
Daniel,
You are making an assumption based on our understanding of the word “seal”. While it was used in those times as a mark to indicate ownership of an object, it did not, by virute of having aseal, mean it couldn’t be stolen or lost. Your argument is that we cannot break God’s seal on us. But in Revelation we see that the angels were told to go out and place a mark on every believer (Rev 7:3). If the seal you refer to was indelible, why would these believers require a mark?
Of course, we could debate this for a year and not change anyone’s mind. I am just of the persuasion that there are far too many warnings in the Bible about believers falling away, including from our own Lord’s mouth (Luke 8:13), for this to be hyperbole. I can assure you that the early church fathers did not believe this as positively as Calvinists do. At least, I have yet to see evidence of anything contrary to their opinion that saints could fall away to perdition.
Robert,
In Hebrews 10:26 the word for knowledge is ‘epignōsis’
which means “full discernment, or knowledge”. In Hebrews 6:4 the word enlightened is ‘phōtizō’, meaning “enlighten, illuminate, (bring to, give) light, make to see.” Now all Calvinists believe that men are dead in their sins and unable to come to God unless He calls them with an Irresistable Election. They cannot come to a knowledge of the truth unless God Himself enlightens them and, according to Calvin, they cannot even understand the truth unless they are regenerated (born again). So, the argument that this is about unbelievers who haven’t quite got there yet salvation-wise, is erroneous based on Calvin’s own theology.
Partaker, in that same verse, is from the Greek ‘metochos’ which means “participant, that is, (as noun) a sharer; by implication an associate: – fellow, partaker, partner”. Please explain to me how any unbeliever can be any of these unless they have the Spirit at some point in time? How can one “taste” of something unless they actually had it. One doesn’t taste an apple by looking at it or studying it or having someone explain what it tastes like. This tasting refers to the Holy gift which is???? Salvation and the Holy Spirit are the gifts that must precede any others from God.
As I said, I too believed in Calvin’s perseverance of the saints for a while. It WAS very comforting to think I didn’t have to worry about me any longer. But, that is unbiblical, for we are told over and over in the New testament that we ARE to worry about our own selves (Heb 3:6,Heb 10:23-26, Rev 3:11). We are to strive, hold fast, endure, stand, etc. in order to obtain a crown of life (not a reward besides eternal life) which is promised to ALL (2 Tim 4:8,James 1;12) who love Him and His appearing. Obviously those who are ashamed at His appearing will not receive that crown (1 John 2:28), so what does that mean?
It is so evident that God has always ordained that His covenants with man should always include conditions. Abraham was counted righteous because of faith, but God always proved his faith with Isaac right up to the point where Abraham could not have backed off any later. Our salvation is not earned, because we could never buy it, but we participate by doing good in order to remain in the goodness of God (Romans 11:12).
Calvin had a stunted view of the importance of the Old Testament. He did not, for some reason, appreciate it as being instructive, by example, of the age of grace.
David McCrory,
I think those verses actually support the view that 4-6 refers to Christians. The writer of Hebrews is telling the readers that he expects from them those things which accompany salvation – things not received from the people described in 4-6. That only makes sense if there is some reason to suspect that those people in 4-6 might produce things accompanying salvation. The people in 4-6 are Christians who fall into apostasy. In v9 the writer addresses Christians from whom he expects those things which salvation is supposed to bring.
Daniel Chaney,
As stated before, I believe Christians do not and can not lose salvation. I am not a Calvinist so I understand it a little bit different than the Calvinist.
Robert,
In what way would the description of the people in vv4-6 be different if they were believers? I’m not sure what more can be said. The writer of Hebrews sounds pretty emphatic to me – these people are Christians. What is missing in his description?
NWProdigal,
You said, “While it was used in those times as a mark to indicate ownership of an object, it did not, by virute of having aseal, mean it couldn’t be stolen or lost.”
Eph. 1:12-14 says, “That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”
The Greek word for “earnest” is “arrhabōn” and it means “an earnest, as money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid.” So if God has given us this earnest of our inheritance, then we can be sure that He will give us the “full amount” right? If we can lose our salvation, then we cannot be sure, and the “earnest” of our inheritance (the Holy Spirit) is not only useless, but a fraud.
Joh 6:39-40 says, “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Does this last verse mean that even though someone is saved they might not have everlasting life? Clearly not. Everyone who is saved will absolutely have everlasting life, because Christ WILL NOT LOSE THEM.
How do you interpret all the verses in the Bible that say “he who believes will have eternal life”? These verses do not say that he who believes MIGHT have eternal life.
Rom 8:28-30 says, “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
These verses say that if God predestined that a man be saved, then that same man will absolutely also be glorified. Here Paul goes through the whole process of salvation: predestined=before salvation; called and justified=at salvation; glorified=after salvation. This is the way it goes, Paul said so.
I have one last question: How can you with your view find assurance of salvation?
I think this has been somewhat pointed out , but doesn’t the writer of Hebrews himself make a contrast between those described in verses 4-6 and those in verse 9? He even uses the word “those” in verse 4 to put some sort of distance between that group and the “beloved” in verse 9.
Also, we know that a good tree bears good fruit and a bad tree bears bad fruit, right?(Mt.7:17) The produce of the first group is thorns and briars (v.8), while the produce of the second group is “work of labour and love.”(v.10) Good trees cannot produce bad fruit.(Mt.7:18) The bad tree’s end is to be burned (Heb.6:8;Mt.7:19).
So there is a definite distinction between these two groups. It is as if we were standing in one common group pointing over to “those” others.
I had a close friend a few years back that was a professing believer. He described himself as born again, experienced a definite joy in his life from the gospel of Christ. Everything about him showed me that we had a common faith when it came to fellowship. He was enlightened to the truth, tasted (experienced) the heavenly gift and Holy Spirit through the Church (fellow believers), and truly believed he was a Christian. The only things we disagreed on were the deeper truths of scripture. He never desired to move past “Jesus died for my sins and that’s enough for me.” He only desired the baby’s milk (Heb.5:13)
A couple years later we met up again and he had entered a deep depression (emotionally and physically). I asked him about his faith and he told me that he didn’t believe in the gospel any longer. He had completely rejected the truth…apostacized. I spent many tears and hours praying for him, but as far as I know, he is lost.
There are many soils, my brothers, and only one is the heart of a true believer. My friend was the rocky soil type, and I believe that “those” in Hebrews 6:4-6 were never of the “good soil” that bears fruit.
In my opinion, the letter is addressed to an actual fellowship of believers (with unbelievers in the mix, as with any church), but the author is exhorting the believers by giving reference to “those” unbelievers. “Those” unbelievers may very well think they are saved, having fellowship with the true believers and “tasted” many of the blessings of the power of God, but when they fall away, they are made manifest.
Thanks for the discussion. It has helped my study of this topic.
Just another note (from my twin brother),
People like to skip from Heb.6:4-6 to verse 9 and they seem to forget to mention verses 7 and 8, which are in the same flow of thought from 4-6.
“For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.”(NASB)
There are two different types of ground mentioned here, but BOTH receive the same blessings (v.4-5) of rain. One is productive ground (v. 7) while the other is unproductive (v. 8). Read this with reference to the parable of the soils.
-Keith
This passage certainly speaks to the fact that the believer can forfeit salvation. Once saved , always saved is a false doctrine. Too many passages warn Christians that they can lose their salvation. The good news is that once a person is saved they can stay saved . Salvation is conditional and the believer must remain faithful. The scriptures give us numerous teachings , that if applied will keep the believer secure in salvation.
Ray,
How can you have assurance of salvation knowing that at any time you could lose your salvation? The Bible is quite clear that since we did nothing to gain salvation, we can most certainly do nothing to lose it.
Christ has promised that “He (God) which hath begun a good work in us, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” However, you believe that this is not true, because you believe that it is possible to lose salvation.
The Bible says, “…ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession…” However, you believe that this is not true because you believe that the Holy Spirit may not necessarily be the earnest UNTIL THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.
Joh 6:39-40 says, “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” However, your view makes Christ a liar because it says that Christ could lose some of those whom God has given to Him, and therefore not raise them up at the last day.
Rom 8:28-30 says, “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” However, again, you believe that this is not true because you believe that those who are saved might not be glorified. Paul says that those whom God has predestined to be saved will be called, will be justified, and WILL be glorified.
Christians are to “make their calling and election sure.” but this does not mean that they can lose their salvation if they don’t, it just means that they will not have assuranc if they don’t. Aparrently, your salvation is based on your works and your ability to keep it. If we can “give up” salvation through lack of works, then it must also be true that we obtained salvation through works (neither is scriptural). Neither salvation nor the continuance of it is based upon our performance, but on Christs performance.
Ray,
“Once saved, always saved” is a slogan well-intended by some to be shorthand for Bible doctrine, and use pejoratively by others. Let’s confine the discussion here to Scripture and stay away from slogans and accusing people of “false doctrine” based on an opinion about a slogan. To Scripture:
“Eternal life” is a Biblical term. How would you explain “temporary” eternal life?
“Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world” is the basis for salavation. How can a decision of man overrule the eternal plan of God?
How can Jesus’ words “they shall never perish” mean that in reality, many of them will actually perish? When does “never” mean the opposite of never?
Jim
Ray,
Jim said it well. Can John 3:16 sometimes mean the opposite? (For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.) Christ says that He will lose none that God has given Him. Can that mean that Christ will lose some of those God has given Him? Clearly not. If God has forgiven our sins, how can we lose our forgiveness? The Bible says that if we are saved “our sins and iniquities He (God) will remember no more.”
Those who continue to believe , obedeint belief will not perish but some have stopped believing. Jesus teaches us that some will fall in His parable of the soils. Different hearts are described. Only one of the hearts he described will be saved. It is those who persevere and stay saved.
Thsoe that Jesus will never lose are also those he also said
would hear Him and follow Him. Sure , they will not be lost. But it is conditional.
R
Those who continue to believe , obedeint belief will not perish but some have stopped believing. Jesus teaches us that some will fall in His parable of the soils. Different hearts are described. Only one of the hearts he described will be saved. It is those who persevere and stay saved.
Thsoe that Jesus will never lose are also those he also said
would hear Him and follow Him. Sure , they will not be lost. But it is conditional.
R
Those who continue to believe , obedeint belief will not perish but some have stopped believing. Jesus teaches us that some will fall in His parable of the soils. Different hearts are described. Only one of the hearts he described will be saved. It is those who persevere and stay saved.
Thsoe that Jesus will never lose are also those he also said
would hear Him and follow Him. Sure , they will not be lost. But it is conditional.
R
Those who continue to believe , obedeint belief will not perish but some have stopped believing. Jesus teaches us that some will fall in His parable of the soils. Different hearts are described. Only one of the hearts he described will be saved. It is those who persevere that will stay saved.
Those that Jesus will never lose are also those he also said
would hear Him and follow Him. Sure , they will not be lost. But it is conditional.
Romans 8 begins by saying that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ and for those who continue to live by the Spirit and not by the flesh. They will not be lost.
The elect are those who have put their faith in Jesus and never stop looking to Him for salvation. The elect is the corporate term for all those who have chosen to believe and obey.
The warning passages in Hebrews are written to Christians. They help us to stay faithful and to not allow sin to become dominate which is the essence of the warnings in Hebrew 3.
Ray,
The warnings in Hebrews 3 are legitimate warnings to Christians; who, by the way, are capable of falling into sin for a time. However, this falling into sin can never do anything to separate us from God’s family.
In the parable of the sower, only one of the types of soils describes a true Christian, and the others are not Christians. The ground by the wayside is a man that does not understand the word. The stony ground is a man that receives the word, but does not grow, thereby showing that he was a fake. The thorny ground is a man that puts more importance in the pleasures of this world than in God. The good ground is the true believer who bears the fruit of the Spirit as proof of the Holy Spirit’s work in his life. Any other type of ground than this is not a true Christian.
You said, “Those who continue to believe, obedeint belief will not perish but some have stopped believing.”
This is proof that they were never saved in the first place, not that they lost their salvation.
You also said, “Those that Jesus will never lose are also those he also said would hear Him and follow Him. Sure, they will not be lost. But it is conditional.”
Christ’s promise that those who are saved will never be lost again, is conditional? The condition is whether they are saved. If they are, Christ will NEVER lose them. If they are not, then they will go to hell. This is the condition: “Those who are saved will hear and follow Him.” Not, “those who hear and follow Him will be saved.”
You mentioned Rom 8:1, which says, “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
This verse says that those who are in Christ Jesus will walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit; and that they will not have any more condemnation. However, you say that they can have condemnation. Only those who are “walking not after the flesh, but after the Spirit” are true Christians, and they will never ever have any more condemnation.
You also said, “The elect is the corporate term for all those who have chosen to believe and obey.”
The elect are those whom God has chosen from before the foundation of the world. Hence the name: elect.
Daniel
The teaching from Jesus about those who will never be lost in John 10 is for those he just said will he listen to him and follow him. Those in Hebrews 3 ; turn away from God, and only share in Christ if they hold to the end. The possibility of apostasy is very clear.
Ray,
Joh 10:26 says, “But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”
Only those who are Christ’s sheep will hear His voice. Not the other way around, (those who hear His voice are His sheep.)
In Hebrews 3 The writer warns against the very real possibility that some of them might turn from the gospel. My uncle did so. He used to profess faith in Christ, but we now know that it was just an act. He was putting up a front to impress us. He did not lose his salvation when he rejected the faith, he showed that he never was saved in the first place.
1Jo 2:19 says, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”
Here, John says that if a man is truly a believer (of us) then he will NO DOUBT continue in the faith. If he leaves (falls away) this shows (makes manifest) that he was never saved in the first place.
2Pe 1:10 says, “Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:”
The reason that Christians are to do the things mentioned in vs. 5-7, is so that we can have assurance of salvation. If someone is not adding these things, his salvation would be called into question because we will know him by his fruit. If he is a good tree (a Christian) he will bear the fruit of the Spirit. If he is not saved (a bad tree) then he will bear the fruit of the flesh. If I am a good tree (a true Christian) then I can NEVER become a bad tree, but there can be confusion about what kind of tree I am, until I bear fruit.
The possibility of leaving the faith is indeed very clear, as with my uncle. However, no true Christian will leave the faith.
Daniel,
A couple questions:
1. Did you receive the Spirit by works or by hearing with faith?
2. If by hearing with faith, then are you now being perfected by works?
Obviously both of those questions are from Galations…
Paul puts it in this way in Galations 3:
“What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.” (v. 17-18)
Once saved, always saved is not the richest way to put it. It is better to look at the docrines of Justification and Perseverence. Justification teaches that ALL of our sins are paid for by Christ, not just the ones up until He calls us. God is the one who justifies, who is the one who condemns? (Rom. 8:33-34) Especially while Christ himself continually intercedes for us!!! (Rom. 8:34) That indeed would be a fearful situation if I, as an imperfect man, was granted salvation by a gift from God, and then I, still imperfect, was responsible for keeping it. That would be a life lived in fear (John Bunyan’s “autobiography”, Grace Abounding, shows what a life like this is like). If your sin didn’t keep God from justifying you, then how will it cause you to become unjustified before Him? Sin is the problem…sin has been dealt with. Praise be to God.
As for Perseverence, this is also of God:
“I am confident of this very thing, that HE who began a good work in you WILL perfect it UNTIL the day of Christ Jesus.”(Php. 1:6) This Perseverence is also a characteristic of (not guaranteed by) the believer (Heb. 3:6). So while we see this evidenced in the believer’s life, it is not the believer who affects it. More praise to our merciful Father.
Assurance of salvation is a wonderful temporal blessing(2Pet. 1:10), and something we are to strive for as saints.
Sorry, Daniel. That last post was directed to Ray. Please forgive me.
Also, Ray, you said:
“Those who continue to believe , obedeint belief will not perish but some have stopped believing.”
Is there any other true saving faith other than that EVIDENCED by obedience? James makes this very point. “What use is it, my brethren, if someone SAYS he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” The queston implies the answer…an emphatic NO! THAT faith cannot save him. Obedience is the evidence of salvation, it is not what keeps us saved…that’s God’s job.
In Christ,
Keith
Right. No true Christian will turn from the faith. But those who have made the confession, have repented, been immersed for the forgiveness of sins , some , have also fallen away. Hebrews 3 speaks about those who once beleived but fell back into sin and developed a hbardened heart.
2 Peter 1 : 10 , another one of those conditional verses. If you do thses things…increase in the Christian graces , let them become your focus, then you will not fall.
Yes , those who hear his voice and follow him , they are his sheep. No argument. But they must continue to hear and follow. Those who so continue will not fall. A number of scriptures teach how the Christian can prevent apostasy. However, there are also many scriptures that warn about how any Christian can fall back into sin and forfeit eternal life. It is not once saved always saved but once saved you can stay saved. And that is not woks of merit but true faith being obedient to the end. We are to have works of faith as stated in James 2. James states that no one will be justified by faith alone.
NWProdigal,
In your reply to me you didn’t deal with the different terminology used. You just pointed out what ginosko meant…ok…hmmm …
Hebrews 6 uses terminology that isn’t used of salvation. And someone has already pointed out the “us/them” thing.
The plain fact is, if you say that Hebrews is teaching that you can lose your salvation…then you have to reconcile many other verses that teach that you cannot be “unsaved”…right?
We’ve shown you some reasonable alternatives for the understanding that nicely dovetails with the rest of scripture…if you choose to say…”it clearly doesn’t say that”…well, that’s your prerogative.
If you hold to Hebrews as saying that a person can lose what God has granted, then please provide some exegesis for the passages that have been mentioned that say that once saved you cannot be lost…
fair enough?
Ray B,
No one here would disregard the warnings about “staying faithful” but to make the leap that it’s a persons doing that “keeps us saved” is not supported by scripture.
God saves us. We cannot undo that.
If what you are saying is that God saves us be we can unsave us, then provide some exegesis of the passages that say that AND the ones that say that we can unsave ourselves.
Providing passages that exhort us to remain faithful is not the same thing…
And James 2? Please provide some exegesis there also…not just an assertion.
John Hendryx wrote a very clear treatment of this passage and I will try and paraphrase for the sake of brevity:
We all know that Hebrews was written to give witness to the superiority of Jesus Christ to all other means of pleasing God such as temple sacrifice and the Law. In fact He is seen as replacing them all. Jesus Christ is shown to be more excellent than the Prophets (1:1), Angels (1:4-14), Moses (3: 3-6), the Levitical
Priesthood and sacrifice (Heb. 5 & 9) and even Abraham (7: 4-14).
The new covenant is shown to be better than the old because it fulfills everything the old covenant pointed to (Heb 8). Jesus Himself is revealed as the climax of the covenant of grace.
The context of all of these verses is the old sacrifices being contrasted with Jesus’ sacrifice.
Hebrews 6:4-8 is often read in isolation apart from this context.
Tragically, the very next text (which is crucial) is also often left off by those who claim regenerate Christians can fall away … a text which qualifies the preceding text. The writer of Hebrews in verse 9 says,
“Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things–things that belong to salvation.”
If the author of Hebrews is confident of better things of the persons he is speaking with, things that belong to salvation, then obviously falling away does not belong to it.
This is a clear statement that the author was not describing saving faith of those who are in danger of falling away in the preceding passage, because the kind of response that falls away, he says, are not among the “things that belong to salvation.” So whatever the things the author just described about falling away in Heb 6:4-8 are not the characteristics of true regenerate persons. People can be enlightened and taste and partake ….
They may be externally a part of the church and receive external blessings, yet if they abandon trust in Christ for ritual or something else, there is no hope for their salvation. They were never regenerate to begin with for falling away does not accompany or belong to true salvation, according to the text.
That seems like a careful reading of that passage.
Can anyone on this thread who holds to one being able to lose their salvation, directly interact with the above understanding? Especially the idea that the author was first speaking of “old/vs/new” and then goes on to say “but in your case beloved…” and then address’ regenerate Christians…
Robert,
I have already answered in several posts.There is no assertion in James 2. It is written in verse 24 “that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” That is scripture , not an assertion.
Hebrews ia written to Christians and speaks to the glorious truth of the superiority of Jesus Christ. Throughout the letter there are repeated warnings not to depart from the new covenant. Some of thse have already been mentioned in this discussion.
Ray,
You said in one post, “Right. No true Christian will turn from the faith.”
Then in the next post you said, “However, there are also many scriptures that warn about how any Christian can fall back into sin and forfeit eternal life.”
These comments are in contradiction. If no true Christian will turn from the faith, then no true Christian can forfeit eternal life. If no true Christian will turn from the faith, then only fake Christians will “fall back”. Which one of these two posts is your position?
Daniel,
No contradiction. I am not sure what you want. The Christian that remains faithful , true to the faith will not fall . However some have not remained faithful and true and have fallen.
What do you think all the warning scriptures teach in Hebrews ? Are they warnings for those who are not of the faith ? Would they have read the letter and then would have been persuaded to believe , or does the writer warn Christian brethern( Heb 13 :22 ) about not having a hardened heart ?
Ray,
Doesn’t your theology leave you in a fearful position? I ask truthfully.
Where is the point that you cross the line and become unsaved? Are you then “dead in your trespasses and sins” again?
And please answer this–if you believe the Hebrews 6 passage in question teaches that you can lose your salvation, do you also agree that you cannot regain salvation once you lose it (also in the same passage)?
Again, truthfully, isn’t that a very fearful theology?
Keith
Ray,
You said, “The Christian that remains faithful , true to the faith will not fall . However some have not remained faithful and true and have fallen.”
Those who do not remain faithful and true and have fallen were not true Christians because a true Christian will not fall.
The “warning scriptures” are given to those who profess salvation, because there is the possibility that a professing Christian will turn from the faith (thereby exposing the fact that he was not truly saved in the first place). If a man is truly saved, he will be in the process of sanctification, thereby making his calling and election sure. If a man is not truly saved, he may continue in his act for quite some time, but in the end will fall away like the seed sown by the wayside. The main thing is that this man was never saved in the first place. He did not lose his salvation.
Ray,
I have not seen you address the issues Dr. Macarthur brought up in his post. He makes some key exegetical points about the original readers of the Book of Hebrews. How about trying to refute MacArthur’s points?
You wrote to Daniel Chaney: “What do you think all the warning scriptures teach in Hebrews? Are they warnings for those who are not of the faith ?”
The warning passages in Hebrews are in fact written to warn unsaved Jews who knew the Gospel and perhaps acknowledged it to be true, but refused to fully embrace Christ because they feared the inevitable persecution that would follow.
Keith, Daniel and Jim Harris have asked you several questions which you have not yet answered in any substantive way with exegetical support. I suggest that you answer those questions if you wish people to continue to engage you in discussion on this blog in a serious manner.
Now, if you want to assert that a genuinely saved individual can actualy undue their salvation by some kind of action on their part, then you must accept that a man can override and in fact, nullify all the divine transactions that take place in salvation such as: God’s unconditional election of those who will be saved, redemption, reconciliation, regeneration, justification, adoption, sanctification…you get my point.
An important point in biblical interpretation is known as the ANALOGY OF SCRIPTURE. Charles Hodge explains it this way:
“Scripture cannot contradict Scripture. God cannot teach in one place anything which is inconsistent with what He teaches in another. Hence Scripture must explain Scripture. If a passage admits of different interpretations, that only can be the true one which agrees with what the Bible teaches elsewhere on the same subject.” (Hodge, C., Systematic Theology. Originally published 1872. (1:187))
Let’s take one passage as an example. Dr. MacArthur listed Jesus’ clear words in John 10:27-29 as a text supporting his view of security. Jesus clearly teaches there (and elsewhere) that those He redeems cannot lost their salvation. Your view is contradicted by the clear teaching of our Lord.
The principle of the analogy of Scripture is served best by the view that a genuine believer cannot lose their salvation and will never apostasize from the faith because of the preserving power of God to keep them!
Ray,
Thank you for your very short answer to my question…however…you did not give any exegesis as to why this James passage is to be understood the way you say it is…
You said: “There is no assertion in James 2. It is written in verse 24 “that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” That is scripture , not an assertion.”
I guess I should be more clear…I mean that you “assert” what it means without a shred of exegesis…you assume that you read it with proper “authorial intent” but don’t show me how you arrived at that conclusion.
If you believe that James is teaching about our “keeping ourselves saved by our deeds” then you’ve got some severe problems with scripture contradicting itself.
You then must explain to me how you understand several key passages that say differently: John 6:37-40 for example:
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Those words say that God is the one who gives men to Christ, Christ raises them up, and will not lose any one of them…
The “will not lose” is a double negative in Greek…very strongly worded…He WILL NOT lose one…
That seems to contradict what your understanding of the James passage is…but dovetails neatly if you understand that James was speaking of what’s “manifest” in the life of a believer…the evidence of what’s already happened.
So, can you tell me how you arrived at your understanding of James 2:14?
I have already answered many of the questions some of you have asked. You do not agree with me. It is not that I have not given you an answer .However , I will try again.
I have already stated that Jesus in John 10 makes a conditional statement. If a person , a believer will continue to hear his voice and follow him then that believer
will not be lost . If the believer fails to keep hearing and following then they will not have the assuranace. It is conditional.
Hebrews is not written to unbelieving Jews to warn them . I
know some so teach. I disagree. As I have already stated , the letter is written to bretheren , Heb. 13 ; 22 , brethren who share in the heavenly calling ( 3 : 1 ) , see to it brothers , that none of you has a sinful unbelievin hear that turns away from the living God ( 3 : 12 ) , Therefore , brothers , since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus ( 10 : 19 ) . I believe the letter is written to Christians and the warnings are to exhort them not to go back to the old covenant where they cannot receive forgiveness. Christ has a superior covenant, he is superior to the angels , to Moses, and he is now our great High priest. To go back to the old covenant is to forsake Jesus. There is the very serious warnings about drifting way from the message , having a hardened heart , and becoming immoral.
I agree with John 6 : 37 – 40. John 6 : 45 , Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. Similar to John 10. Listen , pay attention to Jesus . Follow Him. Those who so continue have assurance. Some have not continued. Therefore, that is why the warning passages of Hebrews and other N.T. passages warn believers about staying with the faith and not departing.
James 2 is written to Christians and speaks about works of faith not works of self-righteousness or works of the law. And , yes, such should be the fruit of a Christian life. That is his point. You cannot just have intellecutal agreement faith . Even the demons beleive but shudder. No, real faith will have works . Threfore the reason for James 2 : 24. I did not write it. It is inspired by the Holy Spirit. ” You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” The only time I know of where faith alone is mentioned in holy scripture.
I still have not read anyone answer me as to why the warnings in Hebrews are written to other than Christians. Within the context of the letter. Not to defend a once saved always saved , Calvinistic view of scripture but within the text itself. Does James 2 mean what it says about being justified or not ?
Ray,
Perhaps you are being misunderstood by some of us. In order to clear up any confusion, please answer a couple of questions as briefly and concisely as possible.
Do you believe God unconditionally elects all who are saved?
Do you believe that a person is saved by faith alone in Christ alone apart from any meritorious works?
Do you believe a genuine Christian can apostasize from the faith and become lost again?
If a genuine Christian can lose their salvation, can they be saved again?
Thanks for your patience.
Steve Lamm
Steve,
I will but my questions have never been answered.
Ray
You wrote:
“Does James 2 mean what it says about being justified or not ?”
Absolutely. It means what IT says. But it does not mean what YOU think.
You are looking at this passage from the point of view that faith AND works justify us before God, right? That ideais not in the text… This justification is a justification before men, which is in the text.
Justification by definition is being made righteous before God. To attack this notion is to attack salvation itself. I don’t think you would dispute that.
The justification James speaks about in James 2 is not a justification before God, but before men. The bulk of the scriptural evidence (Rom. 3:20, all of chapter 4, 8:33-34; Gal. 3:6,11) overwhelmingly states that justification before God can never come by the works of the Law. There is absolutely no question about that (I would hope).
James himself in chapter 1:17-18 says that salvation is by the will of God. So he himself certainly does not believe that he was justified before God by faith and works.
James says in 2:14, “if someone SAYS he has faith.” This is a hypothetical dialogue between two men who are claiming true saving faith. As Pastor MacArthur says in his commentary “James is emphasizing the vindication before others of a person’s claim to salvation. James’ teaching perfectly complements Paul’s writings, salvation is dertermined by faith alone (Eph. 2:8,9) and demonstrated by faithfulness to obey God’s will alone (Eph. 2:10).”
If your view contradicts the majority of scripture which teaches that salvation is God’s work from the beginning to the end, then your view must be reconciled. Your view cannot be reconciled (as you have still yet to do) with the rest of scripture. You would need to deal with the texts that others have presented on the eternal security of believers. The view that James was not speaking about justification before God, but before men does agree with the majority of scripture’s dealing with justification.
Ray,
I think Keith, Daniel and myself have answered your main questions. I answered your question about the main target audience of the Book of Hebrews. So, I don’t agree with your assertion that your questions have not been answered. They have, but perhaps not to your liking or with the depth you would like. But, this is a blog thread which does not lend itself to in-depth extended discussion.
My last questions to you were meant to discern your core beliefs about the means and security of salvation.
By the way, this thread is supposed to be in response to Dr. MacArthur’s original post on the proper interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6. With all due respect, your first comments on this thread contradicted Dr. MacArthur’s interpretation and opened the debate with the comment that the doctrine of eternal security is a “false doctrine.” I think we’ve been pretty patient considering.
Now, some of your follow-up comments are confusing to me. I’m trying to clear that up with my questions so I can understand your view on some basic doctrines realted to the doctrine of eternal security.
In case you’re wondering where I stand on this, I’m a Baptist pastor and I believe the five points of Calvinism are biblically correct. I think MacArthur is right on the money on this issue. That should help you know where I’m at on the theological spectrum.
Respectfully,
Steve Lamm
Ray,
I have one main question for you.
Since a genuine Christian has been forgiven of all his sin and has been justified before God, and since a man cannot be a true Christian without having been forgiven of his sins and justified before God, SINCE ALL OF THAT, do you believe that such a man can lose God’s forgiveness and his justified standing before God? Please answer this question.
Daniel Chaney
Ray raises the question of why so many of the addresses to the recipients of the letter to the Hebrews include the word, “brethren” or “brothers.” I believe that there are two answers.
One is that the letter is not written only to unbelieving Jews, but believing Jews as well, the body of which contains many members who are intellectually on the fence in regards to their decision about Christ. They’ve gotten all the information they need, and are wavering. So in some instances the writer refers to the true Christians as brethren.
Another answer is that the writer of the letter to the Hebrews is most likely a Hebrew himself, being so acquainted with the OT Scriptures. As such, it is not unthinkable that he address his fellow non-believing Hebrews as brethren. Such a practice was definitely common in Paul’s letters (of which this may be one; we don’t really know). See Rom 9:3, Acts 13:26, Acts 22:1, Acts 23:1, Acts 28:17 for confirmation.
Hope that answers one question.
I have one question for all of those who believe Hebrew’s to be not talking about unbelievers. Here is the question(courtesy of Randy Alcorn):
If Judas had died soon after he followed Christ would he have gone to Heaven or Hell? If Peter had died soon after he denied Christ, would he have gone to Heaven or Hell? What do our answers suggest about what we really believe concerning the nature of salvation?
Peace and Blessings Brothers,
Zach
Daniel,
you said – ‘Those who view salvation as an elevator, (we can chose to get on and be saved or not to get on and not be saved) have to deal with the fact that they could also choose to get off the elevator thereby losing their salvation.’
You could not be more wrong. Once a person repents of thier sins and trusts Christ to save them from God’s wrath on the day of wrath, they walk onto the elevator and the door shuts. The door does not re-open to let that person off at any time until salvation is made complete.
The ‘elevator’ is not a mass transit system, it is a personal transport system that does two things: it covers a persons sins for the day of judgment and it gives a one way ride to Heaven.
Wayne,
I think you may have misunderstood Daniel. Read all of his posts here and see if you and he don’t actually agree, unless I read you wrong.
Zachary,
I don’t understand which side you are addressing. Maybe you can clear it up!
Steve
Okay, I have read it all. Those verses have got to be the most scary verses for someone who thinks that he could loose his salvation. How do you loose it?, How do you know you didn’t loose it?. One sin?, Two sins?, Three sins?..four?. Show me the line that is called the point of no return. It’s not there?. Insanity,fear and insecurity prevail at this point in those who believe that they may have sinned one time to many. I experienced that for 26 years. Afraid to read the bible. If one can sin to the point of loosing it,then we are in a works based “RELIGION”. Eternal security does not mean “OH okay, I can sin as much as I want because I am safe. Those who are truly born again and have the holy spirit living on the inside will not continue a life of sinfull disobediance. They may have periods of sin,yet, He will discipline them back. Spurious faith does not save. Salvation maintenance by works is no better than the old law.
Steve –
The elevator comment was kinda directed at me stemmimg from an earliar coversation Daniel and I had. He does not believe that one can choose to get on that elevator. I believe that one does choose to get on the elevator after they have repented of their sins and trusted that Christ will save them on the day of wrath.
Yes, we both agree that one cannot lose their salvation but that is not the issue Daniel and I have tried to hash out in previous postings. Our issue has been the actual act of getting on the elevator itself; which is another topic altogether that I should not be posting here on this thread. I was just posting to clarify my position with Daniel about the certainty about the elevators’ destination once the door was closed and sealed.
Wayne,
Thanks for the clarification. I was not aware of the past conversations between you two and I noticed the agreement on some of thoes issues from looking at your own blog
Have a blessed new year!
Steve Lamm
The warning passages of Hebrews have nothing to do with works salvation. They warn about drifting so far from the message concerning Jesus until a hardened heart is developed. Of going so far away from the Lord until salvation is lost.
I will say this:
This is the first time I’ve seen the Calvinist vs. Arminian argument hashed out without violent anger. You guys are all doing a good job conducting this, unless I missed something.
Keep this up in a spirit of loving dialogue,
God bless all you guys.
Via con Dios,
mark jr.
While commenting on Heb 6:1-4 John MacArthur apparently recognizes the intent of the entire Book of Hebrews. Rather than jumping from addressing Christians to speaking about non-Christians as Chris Roberts suggests, MacArthur seems to realize that the inspired writer addresses Hebrews who by outward profession of Jesus as the Christ are counted among the “holy brothers,” but he targets those among them who, though called brothers, might still have in them an evil heart of unbelief. Their neglect of salvation could mean that they will not escape retribution (3:13; 12-15; 2:1-3).
The writer later gives the Hebrews the benefit of the doubt about their salvation, but due to the lack of spiritual growth and fruitfulness among them his optimism doesn’t keep him from expressing the possibility that some could be candidates for apostasy. So he uses the example of those who have apostatized beyond recovery (5:11-6:12).
Chris Roberts lists:
They have been enlightened.
They have tasted the heavenly gift.
They have shared in the Holy Spirit.
They have tasted the goodness of the word of God
and the power of the age to come.
He opines that these aspects of the Holy Spirit’s work could only be experienced by believers, yet they were obviously part of an encounter experienced by those who had been numbered among the holy (set apart) brothers who had evil hearts of unbelief that carried them off into total apostasy.
Though Chris seems rather perceptive in his italicized remark “restore again to repentance,” he blunders. He needs to take this expression in the context of “not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God” (6:1).
No doubt he harks back to MacArthur’s remark about “[coming] again to the point of repentance.” And without the context we might suppose that this remark recasts the Scripture writer’s words. After all, he did not say “restore again to the point of repentance, did he?” But taking the context as referring to a return to the past laying of the foundation of repentance and the initial work of the Spirit (listed by Chris) we can readily see that the idea is that of bringing the subjects back to their first encounter and then on from that this time to repentance.
If that were possible, it would be God permitting it and indeed He Himself would be giving them repentance (6:3; 2 Tim 2:25-26).
This whole topic is so very real to me at the moment because I have been a sworn enemy of once saved always saved up until a week ago!!
The proof for me that helps me see(given by God’s grace to me in opening my eyes) is the fruit that results from believing either side.
When I believed like many others, that the warning passeages such as Hebrews 3 were speaking about losing ones salvation, I was without joy and graceless. Ask my children, wife and pets!! God forgive me…
Talk about a Pharisee. If you do not believe you are kept by the power of God for salvation then you must believe you have to get to the end of life by and through your own strength.
This only leaves you in misery and depression. You must hold it all together. You must try to please God with your efforts at being holy. You must fast and pray and read and study and work and work and work!!
“He who has ceased from his own works has entered His rest.”
Come to Me all you who are heavy laden and I will give you rest.
Oh , you may say you have rest and still do not believe in eternal security.
What are you resting on? Are you trusting in Him to keep you till the end? Are you leaning on the everlasting arms?
Are you able to present yourself before His throne blameless?
The proof is in the resultant fruit brother and sister! Look at your life …are you experiencing joy inexpressible and full of glory through just believing in the gospel?
Is the fruit of the Spirit evident in your life as you strive to obey your way to heaven?
I think that the opposite may be true. For when we depend on self the flesh is activated and we die. Rom 7
But when I begin to see that it is God’s work, He drew me, He chose me , He saved me granting me repentance unto life and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, then I rejoice in Him. I can only be glad and rest in the finished work He did. He is faithful, I am not. Ahh, the pressure is off of me now. It is not our job to get ourselves into heaven, it is God’s work and He is well able!!
Oh thankyou Lord!
It is our foolish pride that will not buy this…so keep going on in your own way…eventually I hope and pray that you will get fed up with your saving work and accept His!! It is a lot easier.
Love in Christ
Dennis
Christians who continue to hear the message , and follow Jesus will not fall. There is complete joy. For those who fall back into sin , do not reepent , who stop listening and do not follow Jesus they are in danger of having a hardened heart. That is why the warning passages in Hebrews speak to Christians of all ages.
I think this is probably the most difficult passage in scripture to interpret. I have heard both Calvinist and non agree with me on this. I think that the key is both a full understand of our role in salvation, and a look at the whole of the counsel of God on this issure.
Jesus said in John 6:37, “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” He later says in v44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Now, I have never heard an even a non-Calvinist say that the people spoken of here are anyone other than the elect. They are described as those given to Christ and those who come to Christ, clearly believers. Christ says that these will not be cast out and that they will be raised on the last day, clearly teaching that those who truly believe and have faith will never be lost.
Now as a Calvinist, I believe that the command from the Lord to repent and believe is a universial one. That is, the gospel call is for everyone, elect and not. However, I believe that none in the flesh are able to come to Christ (Rom 8:6-8), so God elected some unto salvation. This is the basic teaching of Calvinism.
Now, I think that when we look at this Hebrews 6 passage in light of the universial command to repent and believe, we can correctly understand what the writer of Hebrews is trying to comunicate. Obviously, we know that there are many who believe they are saved who are not. I think that we can all agree with that. So the question is can the terms used in this passage refer to unbelievers who appear to be saved or must they be believers. I think that they do refer to unbelievers who have heard the true gospel and reject it. Above a statement was made that Calvinists believe that dead sinners are unable to understand the gospel, this is not true (I hope that all you Calvinists will agree with me). On the contrary, I believe when the Gospel is proclaimed it is understood by the non-elect. This is what is ment by by the phrase “those who have once been enlightened” Being enlighted does not have to mean that they are born again.
We can go through the rest of these phrases that appear here and search for them in the rest of the Bible and we will not find a passage the absolutly refers to them as born-again believers. The bible refers to believers as being filled with the Spirit, not partakers. The bible says that we are heirs of the age to come heirs of the heavenly gift, not that we mearly tasted it.
Every nonbeliever who hears the gospel proclaimed and rejects the command to repent and believe has been enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift. These terms do not mean that this person has been regenerated. A person justified by faith cannot lose there justification by there efforts since they did not gain it by there works. Those who come to Christ will be raised up on the last day and will never be cast out.
Robert
Daniel Chaney,
I apologize for being so delayed answering your question about “how do I have any assurance of my salvation”?
Ray B. has done a good job of explaining the participatory idea of God’s covenanting. I won’t belabour the point, but I am firmly convinced that I cannot earn my salvation by anything I do outside of one thing; and that is to believe. The New Testament is filled with admonitions to keep the faith, hold fast to what we believe, beware lest a spirit of unbelief cause you to FALL from the living God, and so on. Our only hope is faith in believing that God will keep His promises to those who are obedient. We are not obedient in order to save ourselves, but we are obedient because “it is God woho works in us both to will and do of His good pleasure”. Our obedience is only possible by God’s grace which confirms in us the hope we have. The two (faith and obedience) go hand in hand. As James says, one without the other is dead.
So, I know that I am “protected by God through faith in Christ Jesus” and my “works” prove to me (not to God) that I am His. If I cannot live a life without reproach (and by this I do not mean perfection, but consistency) that should be evidence to me that I probably do NOT have eternal life. As Peter so eloquently says “so that the tested genuineness of your faith–more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire–may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.” (1 Peter 1:7-9 ESV) and “Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.” (2 Peter 1:10 ESV)
which, I might add, infers strongly that Peter felt the opposite was also possible.
I KNOW I will make heaven my home as long as I am honest with God, myself and others; forgive anyone and everyone (what happens if you don’t? See Matthew 6:14-15, 18:35), and trust in Him no matter what. Unbelief is our greatest enemy because “without faith it is impossible to please him”. In summation the hebrews writer makes it very plain:
“Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.” (Hebrews 3:12-14 ESV)
I am new to the Pulpit Magazine and appreciate this ministry and the opportunity it provides for open and sincere dialogue on relevant issues to Christianity. This topic is of special interest to me and I have been reading the comments over the past few days. So, since I am way behind, I will jump right in…
I believe that people are born again only after being drawn by God, that salvation is only through Jesus and the work he completed on our behalf. It is faith, by His grace, that makes us Christians. When we believe the gospel of Jesus, we become Christians. Probably everyone who has posted to this article would agree with this much. What comes next is where the differences begin.
I do not find, anywhere in the Bible, where it refers to “true believers”. It talks about believers and non-believers. There are not various levels of believers discussed. If there were a category of “true believers”, what would the other believers be called; false, fake, second class, or inferior believers? Faith is the required element for belief. You either have faith or you do not. Jesus pointed this out:
(Luk 17:5) And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. (Luk 17:6) And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
(Joh 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life…(Joh 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
There is no 50%, 75% faith and there is no non-true believer. However, there are believers that do not have all of their beliefs correct. Probably all of us would fall into that category. Our walk of faith is a process whereby we are growing and learning as we go, being conformed to His image.
The Bible does not say that an unbeliever, who has the gospel explained to him to the point of him understanding what is being presented, has lost the chance to accept Christ and will be eternally condemned to hell, because he turned away and continued on with his life as usual. If this were the case, why would we keep praying for anyone who we have already presented the gospel and they have, to this point, rejected it? Are there any of us who accepted Christ the first time we heard the gospel explained? Having this limited opportunity to accept the gospel, or it’s too late doctrine, is the only explanation I can see for those who want to apply Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26 to unbelievers.
The initial article posted here explains these verses by saying, “…it is the opportunity for receiving salvation, not salvation itself, that can be lost.” He also stated that the writer is talking about “those who have heard the truth and acknowledged it, but who have hesitated to embrace Christ.” The conclusion to these statements is; once you have heard the gospel, to your understanding, you have the opportunity to accept Christ or the opportunity for receiving salvation will be lost, forever, if you reject that opportunity. The “forever” is not up for dispute, based on Hebrews 6:6 “…it is impossible…” That seems like a drastic condemnation of those who would later reach a point in life where they want to trust God and believe in Jesus. Sorry, old man, remember when you were a rebellious teenager and you rejected the gospel, it is too late now!
Another part of these verses in Hebrews, that I have not noticed being discussed here, is the phrase, “…since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God…” Jesus was our substitute and paid the debt of death for us. This substitutionary work of Jesus, on the cross, is applied to us when we become a Christian. His blood washes away our sins and frees us from the power of sin. Our debt is paid! On the cross, He bore our sins. The work of the cross is not applied to a non-believer who has only heard the gospel and acknowledged it but has hesitated to accept it. That is why “again” would not make sense.
Verses 4-6 have to be talking about a believer (one who has the work of the cross already applied to them) who has fallen away (utterly, by choice, rejected the gospel and Jesus and become the same as non-believers) and then desired to come back to Christ at a later time. To be able to do so, would mean that the work of the cross would have to be applied to him a second time – “they again crucify to themselves the Son of God”. This is not talking about losing your salvation because you sinned. The Bible is very clear (I John 1:9) that there is provision for fellowship being restored when we sin. These verses refer to the apostate who has fallen away from the gospel. He believed at a time in his life and then rejected the gospel, intentionally turning away from Jesus. They tell us that when this believer falls away and becomes an unbeliever, he cannot return. He can only look forward to judgment (Heb. 10:27-29). The warning is to make sure we are not drawn away by the deceitfulness of sin and end up with a hard heart where we would reject the gospel that we once believed. (See: II Peter 2:20-21, Heb. 10:38-39, Gal. 5:1, II Peter 1:10, Heb. 3:12, Luke 8:13)
“and were made partakers (Grk: a sharer) of the Holy Ghost,…” Heb. 6:4
(Heb 3:14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
(2Pe 1:4) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
The word “partakers”, refers to those sharing in the thing described. The use of the same word in chapter three and in Peter refers to partakers as being believers in Christ and those who have the divine nature. You are not a sharer in the Holy Ghost by rejecting the opportunity to accept Christ, or hesitating to become a believer.
(Heb 6:5) And have tasted (Grk: experienced) the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (Heb 6:6) If they shall fall away (Grk: apostatize), to renew them again (Grk: once more) unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh (again), and put him to an open shame.
They have tasted the word of God and the powers of the world to come. These are not people watching from the sidelines, they experienced first-hand. The translation of the Greek then states very clearly, “having fallen away”. The “if” is not in the Greek. It is talking about someone who has then, after being enlightened and tasting and being a partaker, fallen away. It is impossible to “renew them again unto repentance”. It does not say that it is impossible to bring them to the point of repentance. It does, specifically, say that they cannot be brought back to repentance, again. This means that they have been in repentance before. Thus, they had to have been a believer.
The question has been asked, here, to those who believe these verses refer to believers who fall away; “how can you have assurance and peace?” Since the verses are not talking about committing a sin and losing your salvation, these are not problems. Many places in the Bible, we are instructed to stay the course. If we do so, we will not fall (away).
I have a similar question for the Calvinists. How can you have assurance and peace? You must believe that there are professing believers among you that are not “true believers”. That they will be known, in time, by their falling away. Those that look just like you, act like you, talk like you and tell you that they believe just like you. But, in the future, some of them will fall away and be exposed as being non-believers, all the time. It seems that the only way to know, for sure, who is a “true believer”, is to die before you fall away and make sure you walk the walk until then. What if that man who sat next to you in church for 30 years, praising and worshiping God, teaching in the Sunday school and professing to be a believer all that time; has a tragedy strike his family that is so terrible that he gets mad at God, curses Him and does not want anything to do with Him, again? Has he just exposed himself to have been a fake all 30 years? If he had died before the tragedy, what would have happened to him, since what would have come later would have exposed him as a fake? With your belief, he would have been condemned even if he died prior to falling away; because, if he had lived and then fallen away, you believe that this proves he never was one of you. How can you have peace since you do not know that you are a true believer until you die? Maybe, you have not fallen away, yet…
A question : who is included in “holy brothers who share in the heavenly calling ” ? ( 3 : 1 ). Whoever it is, they are those who are warned later in the chapter. They are holy brothers and share in the heavenly calling.
Hi all, I just got back from a week-long Christian music conference in North Carolina and will have to get back up to date with all the comments.
The main speaker at this conference spoke on this very issue, from Hebrews 12. His point was excellent. Every true believer will finish the race. The warnings of falling back are given to keep those in the race from becoming fruitless. However, true Christians are those who finish the race, thus proving there veracity.
Ray,
In your posts, I still haven’t seen a biblically supported answer to some questions. Please entertain these two questions (any answer would be appreciated):
1) Since you believe this Hebrews passage is speaking of believers only, and since you believe it is supporting the idea that a true believer can lose their salvation, must you not then agree that those spoken of cannot regain their salvation?
“…it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”–v. 6
2) As a few of us have explained how this Hebrews passage does not conflict with our understaning of the passages which teach an unconditional eternal security (e.g. John 6:37-40, Php. 1:6, Rom. 8:28-30, 1Jn. 2:19, Jn. 0:26-30, and many others), please explain how those passages do not conflict with your understaning of Hebrews 6.
Thanks again. Any answer would be appreciated.
In Christ,
Keith
Keith ,I have answered. Please answer my question as to who are the holy brethren of Heb. 3 .
Ray,
Since a genuine Christian has been forgiven of all his sin and has been justified before God, and since a man cannot be a true Christian without having been forgiven of his sins and justified before God, SINCE ALL OF THAT, do you believe that such a man can lose God’s forgiveness and his justified standing before God? Just answer yes or no.
Daniel ,
I have already answered that question. Please answer my question.
Ray,
The “holy brethren” are those who the writer believes to be genuine Christians, but cannot be sure. The only way he can know for sure is if they hold fast until the end.
Now as to your answer to my question, which I believe is yes, how can you believe that a man can lose God’s forgiveness of sin when God says that He will remember our sins no more in Hebrews 8 and 10? In order for God to remember our sins as you say He does, these verses, as well as many others, must be false. How can a man who has been declared inocent (justified) by God be punished in hell? If we have been given the seal of the Holy Spirit as a down payment (earnest) with the promise of receiving our inheritance in heaven, then how can we not receive it? How worthless do you believe God’s forgiveness is?
Ray,
You said:
“Please answer my question as to who are the holy brethren of Heb. 3 .”
Holy brethren refers to believers. They are set apart unto God, holy unto Him. If you are trying to argue that If Hebrews 3 is talking about believers then Hebrews 6:4-8 is also talking about believers, that I disagree with. I have already shown in an above post (Dec. 23rd) that the personal tone he takes with true believers (3:1; 6:9) is different than the “those who..”(6:4) tone he takes regarding the unbelievers in their congregation. There’s your answer.
Now, if you please…
I have read back through all of your posts. I suppose you have somewhat addressed John 6 and John 10. But you have not answered my first question. So here it is again:
1) When Hebrews 6:6 says “…it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” what does the writer mean? If it is truly about a believer, can that believer regain his/her salvation, or is it lost forever?
As for the second question, you have addressed John 6 and John 10 as follows:
A) You said,”I agree with John 6 : 37 – 40. John 6 : 45 , Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. Similar to John 10. Listen , pay attention to Jesus . Follow Him. Those who so continue have assurance.”
Ray, John 6 and 10 do not say “listen, pay attention to Jesus. Follow Him…”
You are introducing an exhortation that is not in the text. In fact, Jesus is telling the grumbling Jews that they CAN’T come to Jesus (v.44), but by the Father’s doing; not to “listen, pay attention…”
B) You said,”The teaching from Jesus about those who will never be lost in John 10 is for those he just said will he listen to him and follow him.”
Come on, Ray. Give some support. All this whole chapter says about His sheep following him is that they WILL do it; they WILL follow Him; it’s what they do. It does not say what you said, that “those who will never be lost…is FOR those he just said will listen to him and follow him.” You are manufacturing a condition that is not in the text. You are putting the cart before the horse. I do agree that Jesus promises salvation to those who follow Him, but He is not saying “IF you continue to follow me THEN I will save you.” That’s not what the text says.
If those are your final ideas about John 6 & 10, that’s fine. I won’t bug you any more. But please answer the first question. Thanks.
Keith
Keith,
I was moderated in some of my posts and may have not all been allowed. Too bad , I was only trying to answer. Hope this is allowed to go through.
I believe the brethren in Hebrews is speaking about Christians. We will have to disagree.
I have already stated that any erring brother can be restored. Some are. Some do not and then are lost. I do not believe the once saved always saved , once in grace always in grace, however you want to state it , is biblical. I have already sated , once you are saved you can stay saved but it is conditioned on what Jesus says in John 10 and John 6. You do not agree , but Jesus makes it very clear that those who will be saved are those who always keep on listening and following. Those bretheren in Hebrews 6 who were not , were putting themselves in the danger of coming to the point of no rpentance. A heart that had become hardened. I have known , Christians , those who at one time were true Christians, that fell away and then died with a hardended heart. Not willing to repent. This is where I stand and I have given scriptures to back my convictions.
Daniel,
Notice the common element in the following verses:
Mark 16:16, Luke 8:12, John 1:12, 3:15-18, 3:36, 5:24, 6:29, 6:40, 6:47, 8:24, 11:25-26, 11:40, 12:36, 12:46, 16:9, 17:20, 19:35, 20:31, Acts 10:43, 13:39, 15:11, 16:31, 19:4, Rom. 1:16, 3:22, 3:26, 4:5, 4:11, 4:24, 10:4, 10:9-11, I Cor. 1:21, Gal. 3:22, Eph. 1:19, I Tim. 1:16, 4:10, Heb. 10:39, 11:6, I John 3:23, 5:1, 5:5, 5:13
It is, believe and you will have eternal life. It does not say, get your sins forgiven and you will have eternal life. Our sins were forgiven on the cross. When we belive, the penalty that was paid by Jesus, is accounted to us. When we sin, we do not undo what Jesus did, we hurt our fellowship with God and need 1 John 1:9, to restore that fellowship. When we sin, we do not lose salvation. Hebrews 6 and 10 are not talking about losing salvation because of a sin or sins. They are talking about the person who has made a deliberate choice to stop believing in Jesus. Because we believe, we can look forward to eternal life, if we no longer believe the gospel, we cannot.
I imagine you are thinking that we cannot change our mind or heart to become an unbeliever, I believe that we can. I do not believe that God has made us as robots with no free will. So, this is what it boils down to, in these verses in Hebrews. Does one have the ability to reject Jesus, after accepting Him?
What happens to a believer, who is not a “true believer”, who dies before he falls away?
Mike F,
You said, “Since the verses are not talking about committing a sin and losing your salvation, these are not problems. Many places in the Bible, we are instructed to stay the course. If we do so, we will not fall (away).”
The problem that I have with this is you must make you insurance about your own ability to “stay the course.” If you believe that salvation is all of grace then how are we save by grace, then keep our salvation by or own works?
Hebrews 12:1-2 says, ” Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Jesus said in John 6:37, “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” He later says in v44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”
I light of these passages and many more that say that it is the power of God, not our own ability to “stay the course,” that enables us to persevere. The reason that we have these warnings about falling away is because the writers of scripture are not omnsciencent, that is they do not know for sure who is saved or not. James wrote about those who “believe” but there “faith” is not shown by works, therefore ith is dead. This is the audience that is addressed in this Hebrews 6 passage. I think this is where you get the idea that Calvinists believe that there are “various levels of believers.”
I hope that I am corectly understanding you. I also hope you see the danger in telling others that they can loose there salvation because of there inability to abide. If this were true, who of us would persevere? I know that I would mess it up, but praise be to God, He keeps me by His Spirit.
In Christ,
Robert
Robert,
I did not say anything about “an inability to abide” causing someone to loose their salvation. See my comments, above, (1/7 10:06am), end of middle paragraph. Also, I have three posts on 1/5, that were just approved and posted today.
The verses you listed from Heb 12:1,2; are an example of what I mean by “stay the course”. That phrase may not be the best wording, but there are numerous verses that tell us that …if we do these things, we will… If you need, I will furnish references to some of them.
I am not saying, “keep your own salvation by works”. You do not lose salvation by sin or keep it by doing good. Hebrews 6 and 10 are talking about falling away from the faith, i.e. rejecting the faith, on purpose, intentionally.
Ray B,
You said earlier in regards to John 10, that Jesus is teaching that if we “continue” to hear his voice they will not fall away.
Am I understanding you correctly, if so, where did you get that from the text? John 10:26-29 says, “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given {them} to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch {them} out of the Father’s hand.”
Jesus is saying that His sheep do hear his voice and do follow and will never perish and that He gives them eternal life. These are all positive, unconditional statements, that the text never indicates are based on our ability to “continue to hear Him.” I don’t where you got this idea of “continuing to hear His voice.” Could you please clear that up and give us your exegetical basis for this interpretation.
Thanks,
Robert
Mike F,
The point that I was trying to make about Heb 12:1,2 is that it makes it clear that Christ is the one who authors and finishes our faith, not us. I think that you misunderstood me. The reason that is used the phrase “ability to abide” is because you said that we have to stay the course. If we don’t do this we will loose our salvation, according to your view. I brought up a couple of verses that teach that it is God, not us, that enables us to stay the course. How does your understand of this Hebrews 6 passage explain Christ’s words in John 6, John 10, ect? That is the point that I was trying to make. How would you consistantly explain these passages that teach that God keeps us?
Robert
Mike,
You said, “I do not believe that God has made us as robots with no free will. So, this is what it boils down to, in these verses in Hebrews. Does one have the ability to reject Jesus, after accepting Him?”
If Christ is truly in someone’s heart then that man cannot reject Christ. Do I believe that men are robots with no free will? Absolutely not. I am choosing at this moment to say this to you. Does this mean that God is not orchestrating my will? Absolutely not. It just means that from my perspective, I have a free will, and from God’s, I don’t.
You also asked, “What happens to a believer, who is not a “true believer”, who dies before he falls away?”
If a man is not truly saved, he will go to hell because he had not reached that from which you claim true Christians can fall away. If a man is truly saved, I believe he will never fall away because the Holy Spirit sustains him.
Mike and Ray,
John 10:25-29: “Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”
Here we see that those who are not of God will not hear His voice, and those that are of God WILL, with no exceptions. These verses do not say that if they continue to hear me, then they will be my sheep and have eternal life. It says that if they are my sheep, they absolutely will hear me and have eternal life. Not only that, but they will not lose it. God promises that every one of His sheep will have eternal life, never perish, nor be plucked out of Christ’s hand either by themselves or anyone else. This is possible because God is greater then all. Do you believe that one of God’s sheep (genuine Christians) can be taken from Him?
Robert,
I quote from my earlier post:
“When we sin, we do not lose salvation. Hebrews 6 and 10 are not talking about losing salvation because of a sin or sins. They are talking about the person who has made a deliberate choice to stop believing in Jesus. Because we believe, we can look forward to eternal life, if we no longer believe the gospel, we cannot.”
This is what I believe. As far as stay the course or loose salvation, that is not what I said. I have said, that if you reject Jesus, after having accepted him, you are no longer a Christian and you cannot come back. As far as the comments about staying the course, or whatever phrase you want to use, there are numerous verses that tell us to do that very thing, or…(the or… varies between verses).
I also believe that Jesus/God is able to keep us. But, since I also believe that we have a “will”, I believe that, even though nothing is able to snatch us away from the hand of God, we can choose to leave that firm grip.
There have been questions about “how can we have assurance or peace if we believe Hebrews 6,10 refers to believers”. I see no problem with assurance. If I never choose to reject Jesus, I am secure.
Thanks for your questions and feedback. I would like to believe that all of us, on this site, want one thing-to make sure we believe correctly. I hope that I and each of you will have a heart open to the Spirit leading us in any area where correction is needed. Some differences are not “life and death” issues, but details. Even though, I want my details in line with scripture.
Mike F,
The reason I raise the questions about those texts(i.e. John 6:37,44 and John 10:26-29) is because to be consistent you would have to believe that we can be snached out of Christ’s hand. You see, Jesus says no one is able to take us from Him, yet you say by the power of my “will” I am able to spoil God’s plan of salvation in my life. Romans 8:29-30 says that we are “predestined…called…justified…glorified.” this is not a chain that is broken according to this text. And again, if Jesus is right in John 6:37, all that come to Him will be raised up on the last day. I also am thankful for your feedback. I used to hold a simular position. We need to be willing to be corrected, not just wanting to be right.
Robert
John 10 : 27 and 28. Is the believer to just once hear and follow ? When a beleiver feels like it ? When it is convenient? It is a durative characteristic. Those who will continue to follow and hear will be saved. Those who do not will not be saved.
In John 15 :6 Jesus said that those who do not abide in Him will be “thrown into the fire and cast away.”
Hebrews 2 warns about drifting away from the word and chapter 3 warns about the hardended heart that will develop for those who continue to drift.
A Christian can choose to persevere in faith and obedeince or choose to drift dangerously into sinful habits and refuse to repent. If not , then wny are we commanded to try and restore the brother trapped in sin ?
Why even worry about those who are not faithful and not producing works with their faith? Why be too concerned about those who decide to become immoral ? Yes, it can happen to those who have truly beleived. THat is why it is imperative to keep on listening and following. Grow in the Christian graces and then you will not fall .2 Peter 1 : 3- 11.
There is free moral choice .
Ray,
You said, “Those who will continue to follow and hear will be saved. Those who do not will not be saved.”
Are you saying that we cannot be saved until we die? I believe that I was saved when Christ came into my heart. I also believe that there is no possibility that Christ will leave my heart (which would be necessary for me to lose my salvation). So we see that losing salvation must be something that God does, not us. Do you believe that God does do this even though He says that He won’t?
Ray,
You said, “Why even worry about those who are not faithful and not producing works with their faith? Why be too concerned about those who decide to become immoral?”
Because this is evidence of one who is not saved. This cannot and will not be the end of one who is truly saved.
Mike,
You said, “This is what I believe. As far as stay the course or loose salvation, that is not what I said. I have said, that if you reject Jesus, after having accepted him, you are no longer a Christian and you cannot come back.”
Then you do believe that you can lose salvation. According to your statements, if a man becomes “no longer a Christian”, as if he once was, then he has lost his salvation and cannot come back. Yet you also said that you did not say “stay the course or lose salvation.” What do you believe?
Daniel ,
I have answered you.Yes, a Cbristian can lose his or her salvation. Numerous passages so teach. Numerous passages teach how a Christian can stay saved. We will have to disagree.
Ray,
Indeed we may have to agree to disagree. I believe that once God has saved a man by electing (chosing him before the foundation of the world), drawing (placing within him the desire to know God), justifying (giving him a right legal standing), and adopting (bringing him into His family), He will, as He has promised, glorify him in heaven. I further believe that all of this is not under the condition that we continue to be faithful to Him, because if we have truly been elected, drawn, justified, and adopted, God will keep us faithful to Him. Again, this is God’s perspective. I agree that your view is indeed how man sees salvation and perseverance. From man’s view, someone can appear to be saved and later turn from the faith. But I believe that such a man is evidencing the fact that he was never saved in the first place, and you believe that he has lost his salvation and can never get it back. I know of many verses that could lead you to believe the way that you do, however, those verses do not contradict my view. The verses on which I base my beliefs do not fit in with your view. They are: 1 John 2:19, Rom. 8:30, Eph. 1:13-14, and many others.
Phil. 1:6 says, “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ”
Paul is confident that the good work (from verse 5) that God had begun in them would not cease until the day of Christ (His second coming). This obviously says that the work begun at salvation will not stop. If you disagree with this then we will have to agree to disagree.
Ray,
You said:
“John 10 : 27 and 28. Is the believer to just once hear and follow ? When a beleiver feels like it ? When it is convenient?”
Good questions…but not the point of John 10. Try reading it again with this question in your mind:
What is Jesus trying to teach? God means something when He says it, right? So what is the POINT of the text. Again, good questions, but definitely not support of your position.
That being said, it’s been a pleasure chatting with you. It has helped my study tremendously. As we’re at a standstill, I probably won’t be back to this thread again, so I’ll see you around.
Just remember, the doctrine of perseverence does not mean what many take it to mean. Some would say that if you can’t lose your salvation, then why not go on sinning? If you’re secure, then why bother. But like Paul and all other believers who believe in the keeping power of the Almighty God, I say “May it never be!”(Rom. 6:2) That’s just not a characteristic of a true believer.
Grace and peace to you,
Keith
Daniel,
As to “free will”- “If Christ is truly in someone’s heart then that man cannot reject Christ.” How, if that man can accept Christ, can he not also reject Christ, later? If we can exercise our will to accept, why is that will taken from us so that it could not be exercised again, later? God gave us a will to choose and decide. I Tim. 4:1, “…some shall depart from the faith…” It does not say that they will depart from being near the faith of other or from the place where they only heard about the faith, but actually “from the faith”, itself. This could not happen without the exercise of the will. II Tim. 2:3 tells us there will be a falling away in the last days. A falling away from what? From observing the “true believers”? No, from the faith.
We have a will that God acknowledges. Ish. 1:18-20, John 7:17 “If any man will do his will…” – there is a choice. Romans 12:2, Deu. 30:19 “…choose life…”, Jos. 24:15 “…choose you this day whom ye will serve…”, Job 36: 11-12, Jer. 18:8, Jon. 3:10, Col. 1:23 “If you continue in the faith…”-there is a choice. Heb. 3:14 “…if we hold…”, Rev. 22:17 “…whosoever will…”, Heb. 2:3 “…if we neglect so great salvation…”, II Peter 1:9-11 “…he was purged from his old sins…make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things, ye shall never fall…”
One of the reasons it took me so long to reply to your post was that I was researching scripture. Just what I could find, from the New Testament with verses with “if” and having to do with conditions for the believer to follow in order to obtain the goal, the salvation of our souls, amounts to 32 verse references. Why is so much space given in scripture to a situation that is impossible to happen, if we, as believers, cannot fall away? Here they are: Matt. 5:29, 18:15-17, John 8:24,31,51, 9:31, 12:26, 14:15, 15:10,14, Rom. 8:13,17, ICor. 3:17, 15:2, Col. 1:23, IThes. 3:8, IITim. 2:12,21, Heb. 2:3, 3:6,14, 10:26,38, James 1:23, 2:17, IPet. 1:17, IIPet. 1:10, 2:20, IJn. 2:3,24, 4:12. They are full of statements such as: if you continue in my Word, if you keep my sayings, if he neglect, if any man serve me, if you love me, if you do, if we suffer with him, if you continue, if you stand fast, if we deny, if we purge, if we hold fast, if we hold the beginning, if we sin wilfully, if we draw back, if we do these things, if we keep the commandments, if it shall remain in you, if we love one another…
When we accept Christ, we do not lose our ability to accept or reject. I believe that God receives more glory by the man who accepts and does not draw back, by choice of his love of God and appreciation of Jesus; than he would from the man who had no choice but to accept and no choice but to stay. The evidence is overwhelming that there is an ability to choose and the necessity to make sure we make our calling and election sure, so that we will not fall away.
I feel like the argument of “well, if he falls away, it just proves that he never was saved” is pretty weak. It sounds like the best someone came up with to explain Heb. 6 and 10; when these verses did not fit with the doctrine he already decided to believe. I have read, here, that the description used in Heb. 6:4-6 does not specifically label that person as saved, etc. No, it does not have the label, but instead of the label, it has a fairly strong description of what makes up a person with that label. It is not a hypothetical warning for a situation that could not happen. It is a real warning to believers, to not fall away. I will repeat myself-I do not believe that falling away has to do with committing a sin and losing salvation. In the MacArthur Study Bible, the notes he added in Heb. 10, concerning “willful sinning” is what I agree with. Falling away is a willful, intentional rejecting of Christ.
The verses in Heb. 10:26-29 are very similar to 6:4-6. You claim that those in chapter six must be unbelievers, since it is impossible for a “true believer” to fall away. How do you explain 10:29? It specifically tells us that this person “was santified” by the blood.
I apologize for such a long post, I have completed a study on Heb. 6 and 10; which are even longer and in my opinion, show very clearly that these verses are talking about believers.
You wrote, “It just means that from my perspective, I have a free will, and from God’s, I don’t.” I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if God’s perspective disagrees with yours, you lose. If you were right and God sees you as not having a free will, then you don’t, no matter what your perspective would be. But, as shown by a multitude of verses, above, you do have a free will and God acknowledges that.
Daniel,
I had to break and start a new posting.
I asked a question, “What happens to a believer, who is not a “true believer”, who dies before he falls away?” Your answered with, “If a man is not truly saved, he will go to hell because he had not reached that from which you claim true Christians can fall away…”
I understand what you are saying, but my question must not have been clear as to what I meant.
A professed believer, who is living the walk of a Christian, dies. What happens to him? I would assume the answer would be, he would go to heaven. After all, he claims to believe and walked the talk. But, if this same person had lived longer, and some tragedy happened in his life that caused him to get so upset that he cursed God and rejected his faith in Jesus, and fell away (as we are warned against), I would assume that the response of a Calvinist would be that this proves he was not ever a true believer. Your view, I believe, is that this man, since he fell away, was never really a Christian. This would mean that some who claim to be Christians and never fall away before they die, would still not go to heaven. To me, this does not make sense and does not line up with many verses in the Bible.
My answer would be that he is a believer and if he never falls away, he will go to heaven. Pretty plain and simple.
Daniel and Robert
John 10:25-29
In answer to your posting about these verses. Sure, I believe just what they say. But, they do not say that the sheep cannot take themselves out of His hand. It says that no one can pluck them away from His grip. I do not see a conflict with my belief.
Robert
Romans 8:29-30
As I mentioned earlier, predestined comes as the second step in the order. Foreknowledge came first.
Daniel,
Sorry for so many and long posts, but you did ask me a lot of questions as a result of my postings.
You asked me about my wording, “becomes no longer a Christian” and what it is that I believe.
I can’t go into detail here as it would even be longer than the above posts, but I chose that wording on purpose because of what I do believe, and you picked up on that.
Briefly, being “born again” and being “saved” are not the same thing. Man’s spirit and his soul are not the same thing. It is our spirit that is born again, when we accept Jesus and our Christian walk is a process towards our soul being saved.
Good night!
Keith ,
Jesus means exactly what he means in the John 10 passage. Those sheep who listen and follow , will be saved. But those same sheep have free will and can choose to stop listening and following.
Romans 6 is written to believers to warn them not to abuse the grace of God.
Thanks for the discussion.
Mike,
Don’t be afraid to give me long explanations of your view. I appreciate the fact that you have based your view on your understanding of scripture.
You said, “I feel like the argument of “well, if he falls away, it just proves that he never was saved” is pretty weak. It sounds like the best someone came up with to explain Heb. 6 and 10;…”
Actually this is what John said in 1 John 2:19: “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”
Here John says that even though they professed to be of them, they were not. Even though they went out FROM THEM, they were not of them. The reason these men went out was because they were not of them in the first place. If they had been of them they would NO DOUBT have continued (persevered). However, the fact that they went out proves (makes manifest) that they were not of them in the first place.
You also said, “How, if that man can accept Christ, can he not also reject Christ, later? If we can exercise our will to accept, why is that will taken from us so that it could not be exercised again, later?”
That is a good arguement to refute an Armenian. I believe that I was saved as a result of God’s chosing rather than my chosing, and kept as a result of God’s chosing rather than my chosing.
You also said, “I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if God’s perspective disagrees with yours, you lose. If you were right and God sees you as not having a free will, then you don’t, no matter what your perspective would be. But, as shown by a multitude of verses, above, you do have a free will and God acknowledges that.”
Exactly right. God’s perspective is the only one that matters eternally. God does not see me as having a free will. God sees me as a vessel fitted for honor or for destruction, whatever He decides. However, the “multitude of verses” are speaking of my perspective. I do not see as God sees. All I can see is what is happening at the moment, but God sees from an eternal viewpoint and planned everything already. The verses that say “if you continue, if you stand” are indeed the way I see it. But God sees it from the standpoint of Phil 1:6 and many other verses that I have shown, for which I have not heard an answer.
I would encourage you to do a study on Romans 9, on the topic of salvation.
You also said, “Briefly, being “born again” and being “saved” are not the same thing. Man’s spirit and his soul are not the same thing.”
Correct, they are not the same thing, but they are inseperable. One cannot be saved without the other. If we are Christians, we are already saved from our sins. A Christian, by definition, is one who has been saved from his sins. The “Christian walk” is that of sanctification, becoming more like Christ. The starting point is salvation, which is defined as (the point of being saved from sin). If you have not been saved then you do not have salvation, and have not been forgiven of your sins.
You also said of John 10:25-29, “Sure, I believe just what they say. But, they do not say that the sheep cannot take themselves out of His hand.”
Verse 28 says, “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
If I am one of God’s sheep, God has given me eternal life, and I will never perish. This is what you do not believe. This verse says that no force is able to pluck us or cause us to escape from His hand. If you are His sheep you have eternal life. We don’t really need to go farther than this.
Sorry for such a long post.
Mike F,
In response to your last. John 10:25-29 say that Christ’s sheep “will NEVER PERISH.” Christ saves completely according to this passage, as well as as John 6:44, which says, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I WILL RAISE HIM UP ON THE LAST DAY.” You also made a common point in regards to Romans 8:28-30, but you missed the point. The passage says that all those who were forknown will be GLORIFIED. Foreknew doen’t simply mean that God chose those who would chose him, read Romans 9, it means “for-loved,” not just that He knew there choices. You see, in Romans 8 you have to say that some who are called will not be glorified, but that is not in the text! It says, “And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” This chain of “foreknew…predestined…called…justified…and GLORIFIED.” These passages are very clear that all who are called will NOT be lost, but will be “GLORIFIED”, “RAISED UP ON THE LAST DAY”, and “WILL NEVER PERISH”!
I hope my tone does not get misunderstood, but you are ignoring what the text plainly says. These passages do not leave room for the idea of “the sheep walking away.” I don’t see how you don’t see the problem with you position in light of these passages.
Robert
Daniel and Robert
I really appreciate that you each took the time to read all of what I wrote. I spent hours doing my research and writing it. I do have some questions and comments about what each of you responded, but will not have time to address them until later tonight.
In the mean time, if you read this, I was wondering if you would address the “multitue of verses” I listed that include the “if” as conditions for the the goal we all seek. As mentioned, I spend a lot of time preparing my comments and it seems that I mainly get back responses that say, “John 6 and 10″. I do see your points in those scriptures and understand why you use them to back up your points and they do that very well. But, what about my points or questions? How do you reconcile all of those verses that strongly indicate conditions? How do you explaine Hebrews 10, where it plainly states that that person was santified. I acknowlede your points but you seem to ignore responding or explaining your thinking on my strong points.
Thanks, and I will have more time this evening to ask questions about your responses.
Mike F ,
I agree with your comments. Hebrews 10 as all the letter was writtn to Christians. The passages you mentioned that have if , state a conditional perspective to perseverance. We do have moral responsiblity and the moral responsiblity is a response of faith not works of the law.
When once saved alsways saved is taught , it is taught to accomodate Calvinistic theology.
Daniel and Robert,
Another question, that I hope you will respond to by this evening.
Is it God’s will that people sin and disobey him?
Ray B
Thanks for the encouragement. I have appreciated reading your comments over the past several days. I have a question. Do you believe the same as I have posted that Heb. 6,10 are not refering to losing salvation due to a sin or sins, but a rejecting of Christ?
Mike F,
I apoligize for not addressing your comments on Hebrews 10. I did not mean to, I was just very moved to address what you said earlier about John 10 and Romans 8. In answer to your statements, yes, the person in Heb 10:26 is not a born-again believer. If we look at the context, in verse 14 we read, “For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.” The writer goes on in verse 39 to say,”But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.” Now, if as you say we are able to walk away from Lord and lose our salvation at anytime, who can the writer of Hebrews be so sure that “we are not of those who shrink bat to destruction”? He can say this so surly because they are,”of those who hav faith to perserving of the soul.” Now, we have two choices here. 1) The word of God contradicts it’s self or 2) this person who falls away is a unbeliever. That’s really it. Now, I don’t believe #1, and if you did, I don’t think that you would waist so much time debating what it means. So we are left with #2. Now, obvoiusly you have read my many points reguarding John 6,10, Rom 8, ect. You see, I do agree that at a surface level read it is reasonable for someone to come up with the same conculsion that you have about Heb 6&10. However, when we look at the whole of scripture in regards to the issue of losing your salvation, we must deal with the plain passages that teach our eternal security.
Now, in regards to your remarks about “free will.” I do believe that the Bible presents the concept of human will. I would not use the term “free” to describe it, because I think that we would both agree that God influences it. Now, it is common for non-Calvinists to believe that we teach that man does not have a will at all. This is what some teach, but not most, and I think most who have written on this site would say the same. The issue of our need for God to do all the work of salvation, including perseverance, is the depravity of the “will of man.” That is to say, that man would not chose to follow God on his own, of to stay in comunion with Him if it were up to our “free will. Romans 8:6-8 says, “For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, FOR IT IS NOT EVEN ABLE {TO DO SO,} and THOSE WHO ARE IN THE FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD.” Romans 3:10&11 says, “as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD.” So, I think you have a misunderstanding of how we view “free will.” This is why every person is still responsible to repent and believe and will be judged if they do not, because everyone choses to sin against God. This is why He chose save some effectually, and allow the rest to pay for there own sin. He wanted to demenstrate His own glory by showing mercy on the elect.(read Romans 9) So, as you can see, I agree that the Lord commands and requires all to repent or be judged.
Robert
Ray B,
Calvinistic theology teach “once saved, always saved” to accomidate Jesus and Paul’s theology according to John 6:37,44, John 10:26-30, and Romans 8. I don’t see how we can take the words of Jesus, “no one will be able to snach them out of my hand” and say that the human will is more powerful that God’s will. Jesus says in John 17 that it is the Father’s will that He lose none who are given to Him. So I guess that Jesus is not able to complete the Father’s will for Him??? I hope you don’t believe this. If you do, please provide exegetical work on the above passages to show that we can lose our salvation and that our will is more powerful that Christ’s and the Father’s.
Robert
Mike F,
It is absoultly NOT God’s will that people sin against Him! This is why He will judge sinners with hell fire, and why He crushed the Son on behalf of the elect!
Robert
Mike F ,
Yes and no as to your question. The letter early warns about drifting, chapter 2. Then chapter 3 speaks to the long run of drifting, to the point of a hardened heart. Any Christain can go so long in the wrong direction until , yes they can reject Christ and if not totally intellectually reject Him , they cna become immune to any attempts at pleas to repent. Again , the hardened heart. Heb. 12 warns that no one will see the Lord without holiness and we are encouraged to encourage each other not to miss the grace of God and many be defiled.
Overall , the letter is not speaking to the temptations and sins all believers will have to constatly battle. The writer does speak to an extreme case , but the warning is needed. Do not even start to drift.Keep up your very important dialog.
Robert ,
I have answered a number of times.
Ray B,
Your answers were all very simular to this one, “Jesus means exactly what he means in the John 10 passage. Those sheep who listen and follow , will be saved. But those same sheep have free will and can choose to stop listening and following.” Now you answered, but you did not deal with the text. You talk about “free will” and sheep who “choose to stop listening and following,” but WHERE IS THAT IN JOHN 10 ???
I looked back at your answers and could not find one time that you did meangful exegesis on John 10. Yet, you keep saying you “already answered the questions.” Answering the question with your own presupposition is not the same thing as doing exegesis on the text in question. John 10 is so clear that you have not been able to work you theology into the text, you just keep stating your position.
Robert
Mike,
The many verses that you have stated in this discussion that speak of condition for salvation or perseverance are speaking of man’s perspective. Let’s say that John MacArthur were to suddenly turn from the faith with open hatred for God. This is indeed a stretch, but we would have to conclude Biblically that he had never truly been saved. Phil. 1:6 says that if God has saved us, He will continue this work until the day of Christ. 1 John 2:19 says that if a man is truly saved, he will no doubt continue in the faith. Romans 8:30 says that those who are predestined will be called, justified, and glorified. So if MacArthur is truly saved, he will persevere to the day of Christ. If not, then he will fall away. If I am discipling a man whom I believe is truly saved, I will encourage him to persevere. I know that if this man is saved, he will persevere, but the only way that I can know if this man is saved is if he does persevere.
The matter of perspectives that I have been bringing out is this: I am chosing to type this post to you (my perspective), but I know from the Bible that God directs every step I (choose to) take (God’s perspective).
I appreciate the feedback. You guys are keeping me up late at night, but I am enjoying the discussion. It is good to be challenged to search the scriptures to rightly divide the word of God.
Daniel & Robert,
You quoted I John 2:19 as support for the teaching that if one falls away, it just proves that he was not one of us, ever, anyway. This verse is talking about “antichrist”. In KJV, the word antichrist is in four verses, all written by John. He explains who it is that he calls antichrists. (I John 2:18,22; 4:3; II John 1:7) These are people that deny that Jesus is the Christ. They are not just sinners and not just the same as unbelievers. An unbeliever can be someone who may even acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ but is not ready to submit his life to His Lordship. So, I feel like I John 2:19 is refering to a much more severe situation than a professing believer who does not persevere to the end.
I would agree that God’s foreknowledge, prior to predestination, is tied to His foreordination, which is based on His eternal purpose. The scripture is clear, God chose us before the foundation of the world. I do agree that Romans 8:29-30 “appears” to go through the steps with a one-to-one ratio. I emphasize “appears” because of all the other things I have been writing about. I do not see how all of those verses that indicate a condition fits with the one-to-one ratio. They are all very clear, speaking to believers, that “if” you do this, “then” you will get to that place, if you do not, you are in danger of falling away with a hard heart. This indicates that, even though God chose us and called us, there is still the possibility of falling away. I do not believe that so many verses would be written by various writers in the Bible, that basically warn the same thing, if it were not possible for this to be a real situation.
You said that God does not see us as having a free will. If that were true, why would he talk to us as though we do? Why would he relate to us, who have no free will (we just think we do) under our conditions? Why wouldn’t he just tell us that this is the way it is going to be, because I said so. Instead, he gives us choices.
I asked the two of you, Daniel and Robert, if it is God’s will that people sin and disobey him. Robert responded back and stated that is is absolutely not God’s will that men sin. I agree completely, but, men do sin; beginning with Adam. So, Adam, against God’s will chose to disobey. This shows that Adam did have a will to operate outside of God’s will.
God told us that he puts before us life and death and encourages us to chose life. There is definately more to it than us having a different perspective, about our will, than God has. Daniel, unless I am not understanding you, you indicated that man’s perspective (belief) is that we have a will to chose, but God knows that we do not have that ability. But, as stated above, it is clear we do have a will to chose.
It is this will that I see is being warned against in all those verses using “if”. If it were impossible for us, as believers, to exercise that will, in a wrong way, why on earth would there be so many warnings? Every verse is profitable for teaching, but if you are right, those verses are just filler because the warn against the impossibility and are there just to confuse us or scare us.
As to the difference between born again and saved…You are right, you cannot be saved without being born again. You mentioned that we are already saved from our sins. Agree completely. “Saved” means delivered. There are several things we are saved or delievered from or to, in the Bible. When we become born again, we are delievered from the bondage of sin and our sins are forgiven. Several verses state very clearly that we are working toward the salvation of our soul. Our soul will be saved at our death, if we are believers.
John 10:25-29, about being plucked out of His hand, it sounds to me as the guarantee pertains to no external power is able to steal us away from God’s hand.
John 6:44 is a very stong verse of assurance. It sounds like it fits with the one-to-one concept.
You have quoted the verses about it being the Father’s will that none that God gives to Jesus will be lost. Could the key word be “will”? I talked above, and you agreed, that man can do things against God’s will. Just because it is God’s will does not mean it will happen…Adam’s sin, etc. Besides, another verse states Jesus as saying that none that the Father has given me has been lost, except Judas. There is one that was Jesus’ that was lost.
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Verse 29 is clear that “he was santified”. Verse 39 does not change that. This verse just states that “we” are not one of the previously santified ones who fall away but we will go on to the saving of the soul. It like the verse that states that the writer is confident of better things for you.
Robert, how can you say that the only option left to explain this is the person was an unbeliever? “he was santified”. I do agree that there are “plain passages that teach our eternal security”. But, there are plain passages that also teach the possibility that a believer must persevere in order to be saved. Here again, is the distinction between born again and a saved soul.
Robert, thanks for your comments about man’s will.
Daniel, you used the example of John MacArthur and what it would mean if he turned from God to hatred of God. I will restate a prior situation. So, if John fell away, you conclude that this proves he never was a true believer. If he never was a true believer, then that would have held true, prior to him falling away. If he had died, while he still persevered, but did not live long enough to get to the place where he would have been exposed, he still would not be saved. So, “the only way that I can know if this man is saved is if he does persevere”, is not true all the time. Some may still be persevereing when they die but still fall into the group that never were one of us. I have trouble with that! Also, I still do not understand the perspectives about the will of man.
Time for sleep. Thanks, guys!
Mike,
Sorry to keep you up so late (2:18 a.m.). Thanks so much for your responses. As you said, they are a challenge to me to always study the scriptures.
You said, “So, “the only way that I can know if this man is saved is if he does persevere”, is not true all the time. Some may still be persevereing when they die but still fall into the group that never were one of us.”
These men are not saved, but are putting on an act. The key is there heart (which we cannot see). A man in this position is living to please others and gain their respect rather than living for God. When this man dies, he will be one who says “Lord Lord”.
In response to your first paragraph, the “antichrists” are said to have gone out from among believers (apostasy). John is saying that the evidence of the fact that they were never truly of them is held in the fact that they went out. Had they truly been of them they would no doubt have continued (persevered).
My definition of apostasy is this: 2Pe 2:20-21 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.”
However, if you will notice, verse 1 says that these men are false prophets, obviously not true believers.
You said of certain verses, “They are all very clear, speaking to believers, that “if” you do this, “then” you will get to that place, if you do not, you are in danger of falling away with a hard heart. This indicates that, even though God chose us and called us, there is still the possibility of falling away.”
It would seem to indicate that perseverance is conditional, and from our view it is. We must fight the good fight and finish the course as Paul did. Certainly this is something we must do. But is the power and will to do this, of ourselves? God plans every step I take, but I seemingly choose to take them. It is all about perspectives.
Robert ,
I have no desire to impart a certain personal theology but I have taught what I believe the scriptures teach.
Mike F ,
Thanks again for your correct insights. Being saved by grace does not rule out free human will and choice to either accept or reject the gift of salvation. Also , the perserverance of the Chrisitian in staying with the message , and not departing, Heb 2 , following Jesus , listening to his voice , John 10 , and continuing to obey out of love for God , I John , is not the same as works of the law. Once saved, God has provided everything we neeed to stay in the saved relationship. It is choice to stay or depart.
Ray,
You have admitted on another post that God does not punish forgiven sins. So you must also believe that once a man is forgiven of his sins, he cannot go to hell. In other words, you cannot lose your forgiveness.
Daniel ,
You can lose your salvation. God does punish unforgiven sin . Even the sins of a Christian who will not repent. But if a Christian does repent he or she can be forgven. If this is not true then why are Christians commanded to repent ? Why are Christians commanded to confess ? If all true Christians are saved no matter how they live then why even be concerned about repentance ? Or is it true that a real Chriatian, will not sin ? Then how do you live by I John 1 : 5 – 2 : 3 ? If once saved always saved ,once in grace , always in grace is true ,then why should God warn us and give us all the moral instruction ? I mean sure , we should want to be pure but what if a Christian decides to stop being pure and lives a totally impure life , then do not worry , if once saved always saved is true , because not matter what , the most iommoral Chriaitan will be saved , if once save always saved is true. Or , is just that there is a difference between a real true Chrisitan , however that is defined, and, one who is not ?If the eternal perserverance of the saints is correct then everyone whoever confesses Jesus as Savior is forever saved and nothing that believer ever does will cause him or her to lose salvation , right or wrong ? I hear all kinds of preachers preach that all you have to do is just believe in Jesus and you are saved for all of eternity. Nothing else . Just believe. Is that right ? If it is all by irresistable grace , then can anyone be held accountable for anything ? If you are the elect then do not be concerned , you will just automatically obey , and there is no real cocern about sin in the long run, right or wrong ?
Daniel,
I just have time for a quick glance at this mornings comments. But, in your comment to Ray, I have a comment; it is not the forgiveness of sin that makes us born again, but the faith in Jesus. The forgiveness is a result of the faith. So, your comment as to how would God send someone to hell, who had their sins forgiven, but had fallen away, be possible. If they fall away, the result is the severing of their relationship, in other words, they have rejected that which they had “saving faith”. For this, they would be sent to hell.
Be back later…
Ray,
You said, “If all true Christians are saved no matter how they live then why even be concerned about repentance?”
This is not what I said. A true Christian will bear the fruit of the Spirit, thus evidencing that fact that he is a true Christian. If I am a fig tree, I will bear figs.
You said, “I mean sure , we should want to be pure but what if a Christian decides to stop being pure and lives a totally impure life , then do not worry , if once saved always saved is true , because not matter what , the most iommoral Chriaitan will be saved , if once save always saved is true.”
“Once saved, always saved” is true. There is no such thing as an immoral Christian. If a man that professes Christianity lives an imoral lifestyle, then this his claim to Christianity is invalid. A (true) Christian will not and cannot decide to stop being pure. However, if a man that professes Christianity and lives a pure lifestyle later decides to stop being pure, his claim to Christianity is invalid.
You also said, “If the eternal perserverance of the saints is correct then everyone whoever confesses Jesus as Savior is forever saved and nothing that believer ever does will cause him or her to lose salvation , right or wrong ? I hear all kinds of preachers preach that all you have to do is just believe in Jesus and you are saved for all of eternity. Nothing else . Just believe. Is that right ? If it is all by irresistable grace , then can anyone be held accountable for anything ? If you are the elect then do not be concerned , you will just automatically obey , and there is no real cocern about sin in the long run, right or wrong ?”
You can tear down straw men all day if you like. You know that this is not my position.
The eternal perseverance of the saints is true, but it does not mean that we can do whatever we want. Nothing can cause a man, who genuinly has salvation, to lose salvation. The Holy Spirit works in the true believer both to cause them to will and to do of God’s good pleasure (Phi 2:13). A Spirit-filled believer cannot live a lifestyle of sin. However, one who professes to be a Spirit-filled believer can. The difference between one who professes and one who is, is perseverance.
Mike,
If it were possible to lose saving faith, then would it indeed be saving faith? If it were possible to lose saving faith, wouldn’t forgiveness of sins necessarily be lost with it?
Ray,
God has punished the all sins of all the elect on the cross. Are you Catholic? I am not trying to offend you if you aren’t, but they believe we have to partake of the mass in order to forgive the sins that you after initial salvation. It sounds like you are saying that beleivers are not totally forgiven yet? If you believe that we have not yet been forgiven for future sins then I want to ask, how many of your sins did Christ pay for when He died? You made an statement earlier that you seem to be mistaken about what Calvinists believe. We do believe that man is totlaly responsible for his sins. It is not God’s fault that man sins. But, God does not take sin lightly, that is why He doesn’t save everyone. He allows some to pay for there own sins with hell fire, and He demenstrates His grace on those He saves(Romans 9). We do not believe that it is acceptable for a believer to continue in sin(Romans 6). Jesus said that those who truly believe, “Those who love will keep My commandments,” do not continue in sin. We are not saying that eternal security is a licence to sin. It sounded to me like that is what you have been getting at. I know you don’t agree with Calvinistic theology, but I wanted to at least let you know what we really teach.
Robert ,
I am a Christian . I am not a Catholic, Protestant , etc.
You have answered my question that those who are saved in Calvinsim do not really have a choice and neither do those who are not the elect. No one can choose to do anything. They just do it because God intervenes in some to save some and will let the rest be condemned to hell because they are absolutely incapable of believing. That is the understanding I am gaining by your comments and other comments. There is no free will. There is no way any person can hear the gospel and be saved except those who God has arbitrarily decided to save. In esence at birth , you are either lost or saved. Makes no difference. Some are just chosen to go heaven and others to go to hell. Let me know if I am getting this right or not. Thank you.
Ray,
I am borrowing a quote from someone in response to your view that Calvinism means that God makes an arbitrary choice of who to save.
“So you believe that election this way is arbitrary.
That’s false. There is a sense in which mercy is arbitrary in a way that justice is not, for mercy, by definition, is undeserved, and not, therefore, obligatory. Reformed theology does not teach there is no selection criterion at all. It is merely hidden and undisclosed. We do not tell God He is arbitrary for not disclosing His reasons. Is a storm that God causes “arbitrary?”
To say that it is arbitrary in the above sense is not to say that it’s unjust or unfair, for inequality of treatment is only unjust when it denies a party his just claims to something. But, by definition, no one has a just claim on the “mercy” of God. All are condemned as sinners and deserve death. (cf. Romans 3).
If the purpose of reprobation is to manifest the mercy of God (Romans 9), then how is that or election, it’s flip side, arbitrary? By attacking the doctrine of reprobation, the objection has just supplied a reason for reprobation. Something would only be arbitrary if it had no rationale, no overarching aim. What is arbitrary has no reason or criterion and therefore no purpose. Scripture declares in Ephesians 1 that we have been predestined according to the kind intention of God’s will, and Romans 8 says that part of the reason has to do with God’s intention that Christ be the firstborn of many brethren and that part of this purpose extends to us being conformed to Christ’s image. Therefore, election/predestination is in no way “arbitrary” because it is not random or purposeless.”
Ray B,
Apparently you didn’t read my earlier post that I wrote to Mike on the issue of “free will”. Here it is again:
Now, in regards to your remarks about “free will.” I do believe that the Bible presents the concept of human will. I would not use the term “free” to describe it, because I think that we would both agree that God influences it. Now, it is common for non-Calvinists to believe that we teach that man does not have a will at all. This is what some teach, but not most, and I think most who have written on this site would say the same. The issue of our need for God to do all the work of salvation, including perseverance, is the depravity of the “will of man.” That is to say, that man would not chose to follow God on his own, of to stay in comunion with Him if it were up to our “free will. Romans 8:6-8 says, “For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, FOR IT IS NOT EVEN ABLE {TO DO SO,} and THOSE WHO ARE IN THE FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD.” Romans 3:10&11 says, “as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD.” So, I think you have a misunderstanding of how we view “free will.” This is why every person is still responsible to repent and believe and will be judged if they do not, because everyone choses to sin against God. This is why He chose save some effectually, and allow the rest to pay for there own sin. He wanted to demenstrate His own glory by showing mercy on the elect.(read Romans 9) So, as you can see, I agree that the Lord commands and requires all to repent or be judged.
Now the bible does leave man totally responsible to repent and believe the gospel. Most Calvinists do believe this. So do I. The problem is not as much that they can’t repent and believe, but according that their mind is so set on wicked things that they won’t repent and believe. Our will is so depraved that, “THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD,” and “THOSE WHO ARE IN THE FLESH CANNOT PLEASE GOD.” Now, we both agree that it is very pleasing to God when a sinner repents and believes, but Romans 8:6-8 says that those who are in the flesh cannot do anything to please Him. Jesus said in John 6:44 “NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER WHO SENT ME DRAWS HIM, AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP ON THE LAST.” These verses speak very plainly of the unregenerate man’s INABILITY TO COME TO CHRIST.
This is a whole other issue that that addressed in Hebrews 6, but if we don’t get depravity right, we can’t understand why God must keep believers by His power, not there “free will.”
Jer 17:9 “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?”
Robert
Daniel ,
But then why preach. Only God knows and we do not so why even amke much of an effort. Ok , so maybe arbitrary is not the best word but if only God knows then why should we be so zealous to reach the lost. He will save them . And why bother with trying to bring back a brother from sin. If only the true believers will be saved , and only they will be the ones who will not fall into a hardened haert then why are we commanded to restore someone who has fallen ? Gal 6 :1 , James 5 : 19 and 20. What about someone who does wander from the truth, was he a true believer and if he is will God not bring him back but if he is a true believer then why would he wander from the truth ?
Ray B,
Sorry for commenting on you question to Daniel, but I could not resist(no pun intended). This is a common question that is raised by non-Calvinists that is very simple. Why preach the Gospel? Because we are commanded to! Yes, we do believe that God is totally soverign. Yes, we believe that those who were not predestined to salvation will pay for there sin in hell, so why proclaim the Gospel?
I think this is the whole issue, we must understand that God has ordained that His people would come to repentance by the proclaimation of the Gospel. No one comes to repentance except by the proclaimation of the Gospel. This is His way of calling His people to Himself. The Gospel for the non-elect is about proclaiming God’s holiness to sinners. I think a verse that is often overlooked that is very relivant to this issue in found in Acts 13:48, “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”
I hope this will help you understand why Calvinists do preach the Gospel.
Ray,
You said, “But then why preach. Only God knows and we do not so why even amke much of an effort…why should we be so zealous to reach the lost…And why bother with trying to bring back a brother from sin…why are we commanded to restore someone who has fallen?”
Because we don’t know. God certainly could save souls without the gospel being physically presented to them, but He has divinely chosen to use men to share the gospel. “How can they hear without a preacher?”
You also said, “What about someone who does wander from the truth, was he a true believer and if he is will God not bring him back…”
Yes, if he is a true believer God will bring him back, but He will use men. He could do it without men, but He has chosen to use them.
You also said, “but if he is a true believer then why would he wander from the truth ?”
Although a true Christian will not totally nor finally fall away from the faith, he still struggles with the old nature of sin. Like Paul, they do that which they would not, and that which they would they do not. They have another nature waring in them. We do err from truth, but God in His mercy uses His word and others to bring us back to Him.
So we go after the brother who has wandered from the truth , has been ovetaken in a sin or sins and comes back , then is he the elect ? But what about the brother who does not come back as a reuslt of the pleas and visits, etc, is he the non -elect , not a true Christian who is arbitrarily chosen to be sent to hell ?
Ray,
If he comes back, this is evidence that he was one of God’s elect, but this fact does not make him so. If not, this is evidence that he was not, but again does not make him so.
Ray,
God does not choose people for hell. God knows that they have sinned, and that they deserve hell, and chooses not to save the non-elect from that hell. If a person no longer confesses faith in Christ, it is strong evidence that this person was never saved. Those who are elect and fall into sin will be restored, but I don’t think that we as men have the right to say for sure that a person who has fallen into sin is not elect. We cannot see what the Lord is doing in God’s heart. So in other words, we can never assume that a person is not elect. We must continue to proclaim the Gospel call of God to everyone to repent and believe, or face His wrath in hell.
I was doing my nightly comment, last night. When finished, I clicked on “Submit Comment” to find that the website must have been down for maintenance, or something… So, I lost what I wrote.
Here is part of it-
I have read John MacArthur’s full article on, “Is Your Salvation Secure?” I have a question about something that appears to be a contradiction between that article and the Calvinist’s explanation for Hebrews 6 and 10.
In Dr. MacArthur’s article, he quotes I Cor. 2:14, “natural man does not accept the thing of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him.” and also, II Cor. 4:4, “The god of this world (Satan) has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”
He adds, “There is no way he could muster up enough of whatever it would take to turn around and accept Christ…” Later he states, “It (the term ‘called’) speaks of when God turns around a person’s heart–a heart that could never turn to God, know Him, understand the gospel, or know hope on its own.”
Heb. 6:4, “…those who have once been enlightened…” (Websters – Enlightened: illuminated, furnished with clear views…). Sounds like II Cor. 4:4 “that they might not see the light” refers to being enlightened. If Satan is blinding the minds so that they will not be able to see the light, be enlightened, how can the unbeliever in Hebrews “have once been enlightened”?
Side track: [Also in 6:4, “…been made partakers of the Holy Spirit…” (Websters – Partaker: One who has or takes a part, share or portion in common with others; a sharer). The word partaker is used in 22 verses in the NT, six times in Hebrews. Except for where you want to say that it cannot mean what the definition says it means, in Chapter 6; every single time it is used, it refers to a sharer and one who has a part in the subject. John MacArthur, in the notes in his study Bible, wrote “Even though the concept of partaking is used…of a relationship which believers have…” If, every other time the word is used, it means one thing, then why try to make it mean something else in this one passage? He also says that “tasting” is the same thing as experiencing. They experienced the heavenly gift. Whether the gift is Jesus or the Holy Spirit, they experienced him, not just observed him from a near distance.]
Heb. 10:26, “…after receiving the knowledge of the truth…” How can this refer to an unbeliever? An unbeliever, according to Dr. MacArthur, has a heart that could never know Him or understand the gospel.
Daniel,
You quoted II Peter 2:20-21, as your definition of apostasy. I agree, it is a good one. In vs. 20, “knowledge” means (Grk.-full discernment). In vs. 21 “known” means (Grk.-to become fully acquainted with). Again, how could these, who “could never…understand the gospel” be those who were never believers.
Have a good day!
Ray, Robert and Daniel
You guys are troopers! I have trouble keeping up with this one post. Yesterday, I saw that the three of you are on several others, also. I appreciate all three of you. You challenge me to examine my doctrine and have to support what I believe. That is a good thing and can only make us stonger. Thanks for being civil in your comments and I hope we will all keep an open mind to whatever God may be trying to say to each of us. I would imagine that none of us has it exactly right.
God bless you and I’ll be back later.
Mike,
The heart of an unregenerate sinner is such that it cannot know the things of God without being enlightened. However, being enlightened and being saved are two seperate things not to be confused. A sinner can be enlightened to the truth (know what Christ did on the cross), yet not be given the grace to embrace this knowledge in saving faith. I personnally know of several men who believe in God, yet count the pleasures of this life to great to give up in favor of eternity.
Hope this helps,
Mike,
I also have enjoyed this time debating with all of you. Praise be to God that we have the inerrant scriptures and are able to agree that there is absolute truth and discuss it on a level.
In reguards to your last about the Hebrews 6 passage, I would concur with Mike. Enlightment just means that they understand the gospel but do not embrace it with true faith, which I John MacAurther indicates in his commentary on Hebrew. The use of words do not have to mean that the person is born-again. To say that it must is to contradict the clear biblical teaching that God keeps us in Him by His power.
Mike F ,
An additional thought on Heb. 6. Those who have been enlightened are ” to be brought back to repentance. ” Must be a bleiver that at one time believed but now must be brought back and to do so must repent. Not a statement of someone who for the first time is accepting salvation. Good thoughts. The brethren mentioned in Hebrews are Christians.
Ray,
Did Christ pay the penalty for your sins?
Daniel ,
YES. So , no matter what anyone does , as long as they pray the sinners prayer and accept Jesus into their heart as personal Savior then that person will be saved for all eternity , right ? Nothing else really matters because only the elect will be saved , since when God forgives sins , then there is eternal security, or is there something else ?
Ray,
Is God just?
Daniel and Robert,
Neither one of you commented about what I wrote concerning “partakers”.
Daniel,
Please explain your response to my last paragraph about II Peter 2:20-21.
You quoted II Peter 2:20-21, as your definition of apostasy. I agree, it is a good one. In vs. 20, “knowledge” means (Grk.-full discernment). In vs. 21 “known” means (Grk.-to become fully acquainted with). Again, how could these, who “could never…understand the gospel” be those who were never believers?
I will ask it in another way, since natural man (all those who are not believers) cannot understand the things of God, for they are spiritually discerned; how can these verses refer to a natural man? He has obtained full discernment of Jesus, has escaped the defilements of the world (what could that mean if he has been an unbeliever all of the time?), he became fully acquainted with the way of rightousness (this implies much more than someone told him about the plan of salvation). And if he was an unbeliever, all of the time, why would his last position be worse than his first position, since it is the same position?
If your answer to the last sentance has to do with, as John MacArthur wrote, “it is the opportunity for receiving salvation, not salvation itself, that can be lost’, I believe I addressed that in my very first posting. As follows:
The Bible does not say that an unbeliever, who has the gospel explained to him to the point of him understanding what is being presented, has lost the chance to accept Christ and will be eternally condemned to hell, because he turned away and continued on with his life as usual. If this were the case, why would we keep praying for anyone who we have already presented the gospel and they have, to this point, rejected it? Are there any of us who accepted Christ the first time we heard the gospel explained? Having this limited opportunity to accept the gospel, or it’s too late doctrine, is the only explanation I can see for those who want to apply Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26 to unbelievers.
The initial article posted here explains these verses by saying, “…it is the opportunity for receiving salvation, not salvation itself, that can be lost.” He also stated that the writer is talking about “those who have heard the truth and acknowledged it, but who have hesitated to embrace Christ.” The conclusion to these statements is; once you have heard the gospel, to your understanding, you have the opportunity to accept Christ or the opportunity for receiving salvation will be lost, forever, if you reject that opportunity. The “forever” is not up for dispute, based on Hebrews 6:6 “…it is impossible…” That seems like a drastic condemnation of those who would later reach a point in life where they want to trust God and believe in Jesus. Sorry, old man, remember when you were a rebellious teenager and you rejected the gospel, it is too late now!
Mike,
I believe that those who the passages in Hebrews are talking about, are those who perhaps have even made a profession of faith, and perhaps have even continued as if they were saved for a while, before falling away. It would indeed be impossible for a man to return to a faith that he once claimed to believe, and now denies. However, this does not mean that this man was saved.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Receiving the knowledge of the truth does not mean that they are genuinely saved. We must interpret these passages in light of other scriptures that clearly say that we cannot lose salvation. Hence, these verses in Hebrews cannot be saying that.
Daniel ,
Please answer my questions and you will find the answer to your question about is God just.
Mike,
I will take some time to go indepth and answer your question in reguards to the word “partakers” tonight. I do not have all the materials in front I need in order to give an answer that is beyond surface level. In short, I kinda mentioned in an earlier post, believers and non-believers can be “partakers” of the Spirit. It is the believer alone that is said to be “filled with the Spirit.” This phrase is never used of someone who “falls away.” Like I said, I have done some more in depth work in this issue. You will get a much longer answer tonight.
Robert
Mike F,
There is areason why some will tell you that a partaker of the Holy Spirit in Hebrews is a a non-beleiver is because it accomodates Calvinistic , once saved ,always saved theology.
Instead the whole context of Hebrews and many other passages will teach you that a beleiver can fall but does not have to fall. The believer in harmony with God and His word and obedeince to His word can have eternal security.
Ray,
To my understanding, your question was, “So , no matter what anyone does , as long as they pray the sinners prayer and accept Jesus into their heart as personal Savior then that person will be saved for all eternity , right ?”
If a man is truly saved, there are things that he will not do. It is like the question, “If Christ would have sinned, would He have been God?” God cannot sin. Christ was God. If He had sinned would He still have been God. Well, He just wouldn’t have sinned. Similarly, we have the question, “If a true believer turns to apostasy, did he lose his salvation?” A true believer cannot turn to apostasy. A “professing” believer can. If a professing believer turns to apostasy, he was not a true believer, because a true believer just won’t do that.
Is God just? Just answer yes or no.
Daniel,
Your quote, “We must interpret these passages in light of other scriptures that clearly say that we cannot lose salvation. Hence, these verses in Hebrews cannot be saying that.”
You are saying that the verses that support your doctrine are the over-riding guide to interpret other scripture. The verses that “clearly say” that we can, as believers, fall away, just have to be explained away, regardless of how many there are and how plain they are. Maybe verses in John should be looked at in light of the verses in Hebrews, instead of only the other way around.
I have admitted in prior posts that the verses in John do appear to present a one-to-one ratio as they progress through the stages. You have admitted that God’s will is not always done by people. John wrote that it is “God’s will” that all those given to Jesus will not perish. Then later, Jesus tells us himself, that he did lose one of those the Father had given him. My point, just because it is God’s desire and will that none be lost, some are, as proven by the scripture.
I gave you a long list of references that show a condition, by using “if”. I have pointed out that “partaker” only refers to believers, in all of the other verses in Hebrews (this John MacArthur also agrees with), I pointed out that Heb. 10 refers to the person as having been santified. The evidence is, in my opinion, over-whelming. And for this reason, I look at the places in John in light of, how do these verses relate to the rest of scripture, not just, how does the rest of scripture relate to these.
Ray B,
As I just mentioned to Daniel, the evidence is over-whelming that the continued walk with Christ is conditioned upon us keeping our eyes on Him and not falling away through the deceitfulness of sin, a hardened heart, which can result in a rejection of the gospel that we once held dear.
Robert,
Thanks for taking the time to provide the insight from your more in depth study. I am looking forward to reading it.
Daniel ,
You did not answer all the questions. Then you will find your answer. With me there is no problem with God being just. I cannot find it in Calvinistic teaching.
Ray,
Is it just for God to demand payment for your sins when the payment was already made by Christ?
Mike,
You said, “You are saying that the verses that support your doctrine are the over-riding guide to interpret other scripture. The verses that “clearly say” that we can, as believers, fall away, just have to be explained away, regardless of how many there are and how plain they are.”
No, I am saying that we should interpret the verses that have 2 potential interpretions, in light of those that have just 1.
You said, “Then later, Jesus tells us himself, that he did lose one of those the Father had given him.”
Who was this, and where is this found?
You also said, “You have admitted that God’s will is not always done by people.”
I do not recall such an admition. If by “God’s will” you mean those things that Christ would have us do, you are correct, we do not always do those things. However, if you mean by “God’s will” that we can upset God’s plan from eternity past, you are incorrect, for there is nothing that we can do to thwart God’s will in that sense.
You said, “John wrote that it is “God’s will” that all those given to Jesus will not perish.”
Where is that in the text? John said that Christ will lose none of those given to Him. He did not say that Christ would prefer to lose none.
Those who are saved will be glorified. This is clear in scripture. We must interpret the verses that indicate a condition, in light of the clear didactic teaching. If we do so, we will find that they are speaking of our perspective of salvation and perseverance.
Daniel,
The one Jesus lost – Judas. Joh 17:12 “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.” Jesus said that he only lost one of those given to him.
This happened after John 6, where it states, Joh 6:39 “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Jesus told us that it is the Father’s will that all that he has given to Jesus should be raised up…
As to the comment about admitting that God’s will is not always done. That referred to my earlier question, “Do you believe that it is God’s will that people sin?” I thought you answered that, but maybe it was Robert. Either way, the answer is No. But the reality is that people do sin. This is an easy example, along with many other examples in the Bible, where the people went against God’s will.
So, in John 6, it states that it is God’s will that …
That does not mean it will always happen and we have one case (Judas) where it did not.
I agree that we cannot change the eternal purpose God has set in motion and He will accompolish His eternal plan with or without the help of an individual’s obedience. But, when it says that it is God’s will than none be lost and then one is and we have numerous verses warning us to follow close to Jesus so that we will not be lost, it seems clear to me.
Mike,
“Perdition” in John 17:12, means “the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell.” Judas was not saved. He was the son of Satan, not the son of God. Judas was given to Christ as an apostle, yet not in eternal election, to be saved by him. A son of perdition is not a son of God.
John 10:27-28 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Those who are God’s sheep will hear His voice, will be known by God, will follow God, will be given eternal life, will never perish, and neither will they be plucked from God’s hand by any. If God’s sheep will be given eternal life and will never perish, then how can you believe otherwise?
Daniel, at the time of Judas, no one was saved or born again, but there were believers. Satan came into Judas just prior to the last supper (Luke 22:3). You yourself referred to Judas as an apostle. No where is that term used of non-believers. Where is the evidence that he was the son of perdition prior to Satan coming into him?
Compare the verses, John 17:12 and 6:39. They sure sound like they are refering to the same situation – “those that thou gavest me I have kept” and “all which he hath given me I should lose nothing”. How can you say that they are referring to different situations?
One is talking about God’s will, which we have shown that man can go against God’s will; and the other is talking about the time when one of those given to Jesus was actually lost.
What you and Robert have written has helped me see foreknowledge in a different light and helped me see, more clearly, God’s election. I appreciate that and it took looking at each of those with an open mind, instead of a preconcieved doctrine. I am absolutely sure that none of us has doctrine perfectly figured out. That is why I try to hear what others are saying, see why they are saying it and want to see strong support (from scripture) for that belief. Then I want to compare that with other scripture to see that it meshes. When it does, I have learned something new and I adjust my belief. When it does not, I try to examine it to see how the two might work together. When one doctrine appears to be supported by verses, as does your point in this discussion, but a reading of other verses say something else, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. That is what I look for. All I am asking of you is to be willing to do the same. I know that you believe you are right and you are well meaning in your comments. So do I. The truth is that we both probably have some of our beliefs in error. You have strong support for election and I believe I have strong support for a believer being able, not likely, to fall away. I acknowledge your point but you seem to refuse to read all of my support with an open mind. That is all I am asking. So many of these verses seem to speak so plainly and I believe that someone who was reading them and had not been taught Calvinism ahead of time, would read them to mean exactly what they say. Calvinists seem to ignore the literal words and meaning and try to explain away these many verses by explaining that they cannot mean what they say because that would not agree with Calvinism. So, clearly, they must not mean what they say. John Calvin and later, the 5-points of Calvinism have some good teaching but that does not mean that they have to be absolutely 100% correct in every thing they say.
I find it very interesting that the group of believers who challenged Calvinism with five points of disagreement and had support for their points, were summarily put down and not one point they made was accepted. This just sounds too much like the Church was bound and determined to not budge and inch, so all five points were discredited. I am sure you have studied, probably both sides, more than I have, but I would think that each side probably has some issues more correct than the other side.
It’s important to be strong in our faith, but it can lead to error when we refuse to consider an opposing view with an open mind.
The Book of Life was written before the foundation of the World. It contains the names of the saints. Yet, the Bible tells us, in two places; Rev. 3:5, 22:19; that names can be taken out of that book. One way is to not be an overcomer. Several of the verses I have listed with conditions, talk about the potential of not being an overcomer. These are those who began with their names in the Book of Life. Your explanation, if they did not overcome, then that just proves they were never written in the book. The Bible says otherwise. Scripture tells us that we cannot get our name written into the Book but we can get it blotted out. That sounds like Hebrews 6:4-6.
I am not frustrated and I do not want to stop discussing points and verses, I actually look forward to doing this in the wee hours of the morning. What I think would be awesome would be for some of us to come together here to see how these doctrines, that seem to contradict each other, may reach agreement somewhere in the middle.
Could it just be possible that God did predestine the elect but left them with a will to continuely choose to follow him. That he saw that he would receive more glory from those who overcome by allowing them to stay or stray?
Good night.
Hey Mike,
Thanks for the imput. I also enjoy this discussion, and am in no way frustrated or angry. We should always aproach the scriptures with an open mind, willing to have our beliefs strengthened or changed.
In reference to Judas, I do not believe that Satan could physically enter a heart currently occupied by Christ.
You said, “What I think would be awesome would be for some of us to come together here to see how these doctrines, that seem to contradict each other, may reach agreement somewhere in the middle.”
The two points that seem in contradiction are these: 1) man has a will to choose 2) God governs man’s will. Both of these points are entirely scriptural and entirely correct. We know that two scriptural points cannot be in contradiction, so how do these two, seemingly opposed, points harmonize? Hyper-Calvinists would say that men are robots with no will whatsoever. Arminians, typically, would say that God does not influence our choices, therefore we have a completely free will. I believe that they harmonize at the point of “perspectives.” From God’s perspective, we are vessels. From man’s perspective, we are to choose for ourselves what we will do. This is where I think they meet.
I believe that God keeps us saved rather than that we keep ourselves saved (but this is God’s view from scripture). You believe that men keep themselves saved (but this is man’s view from scripture). Both of these views are in agreement.
Daniel,
Thanks for taking that in the way I meant it instead of being offended.
Let’s start here…”perspectives”. I am sure that I do not understand what you mean by that. You have briefly summarized it, but to me, it does not make sense. Can you show me from scripture clear examples of this? Can you explain it in detail? Or, can you refer me to a very good writing about it?
And, how do you explain the verses about the Book of Life?
Thanks
God helps any believer to be saved who decides to contantly walk in the light, stay obedient and confess sin. God has given us everything we need to overcome sin. It is a daily walk with God.
Ray,
Who keeps us saved, ourselves or God?
Mike,
You asked, “And, how do you explain the verses about the Book of Life?”
In Rev. 3:5, the fact that Jesus emphatically states that He will not take their names out of the book of life, should not be taken as teaching that He will do that same thing in other cases.
“Perspectives” A good example of that is Rom. 9:16 and Rev. 22:17
Rom. 9:16 So then it (God’s chosing) is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Romans speaks of the choice not being made by man but by God, while Revelation speaks of the choice being made by man. While Revelation is speaking on the level of an invitation for man to come, Romans is speaking on the level of how God was working in the situation. Many times when we go through a situation that requires us to make a hard decision, at the time we wonder if we made the right choice. Then when looking back at that time, we can see that God was at work. Our perspective (or the way we see salvation) is that described in Revelation: whoever wants to, can come to Christ. God’s perspective (or the way God sees salvation) is that described in Romans: it is not of him that wills (chooses) but on God that chooses to show mercy on some and not others (some vessels for honor and some for destruction, Romans 9:21).
I hope that clears it up a little bit.
Daniel ,
Both. A Christian will stay saved by living in obedience to the word of God given to us by Him. A Chriatian must apply the word . Free decision . Or is each moment of a Christian’s life directed by the supernatural intervention of God every day in the life of a Christian ? Are Christians just robots with no will at all? If so , it seems we would never have to struggle with sin if the warning passages are just for the non-believer .
Daniel,
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
I am not sure how you see this verse to say that Jesus emphatically states he will not take their names out of the book of life. It specifically states that he will not “if” they overcome. I did not take a verse that said he will not and apply it elsewhere to mean that he will. He said he will in the same verse, if they do not overcome. Read this whole letter to the church in Rev. 3. The whole thing is an exhortation to hold fast, repent; and a warning if you do not hold fast and strenghen those things that are about to die.
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
How do you see here that God will never take a name out of the book of life? He warns us that He will, “if”.
Daniel,
As to perspectives -
I do not understand why God with His correct perspective would deal with man on the level of his wrong perspective. All scripture is inspired by God and suitable for teaching… So, why did God inspire men to write so many verses, based on our perspective, warning us of the dangers of not overcoming, the consequences of falling away, the dangers of being deceived and getting a hard heart; if He knew none of this were possible for believers? Why didn’t He just inspire the writers to write verses that corrected man’s wrong perspective?
Robert,
If you are still out there, please remember to post the comments about the “will” that you referred to a couple days ago. Thanks.
Mike,
You said:
“You yourself referred to Judas as an apostle. No where is that term used of non-believers. Where is the evidence that he was the son of perdition prior to Satan coming into him?”
Evidence: John 12:4-6
“But one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, who would betray Him, said, “Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it.”
Also of note is that after Jesus said to his disciples at the last supper that one of them would betray Him, still none of them had any idea it would be Judas. But he was a true follower just like them….right?
I may be able to post sporatically. This blog was taking away time from some of my other priorities.
Great discussions guys!!
Keith
Ray,
You said that both God and we ourselves are responsible for keeping our salvation. What happens if we do not do our part but God does His?
Mike,
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
If you take away from my book, I will take away from your book. But, there name is not written in the book of life anyway. If Christ had paid the penalty for their sin, then they would be secure. We know from other verses that God will finish the work that He begins at salvation, so this cannot be speaking of losing salvation. We must interpret scripture with scripture. If you think that this verse says that you can lose your salvation, then you have to deal with other verses that clearly say that you can’t. Again, I am not presuposing the perseverance of the saints, I am looking at many verses that say that you cannot lose salvation, and interpreting other verses knowing that scripture cannot be in contradiction (that is my presuposition).
“perspectives” Man does not see as God sees. This is speaking of the fact that man’s perspective is not the same as God’s. This is why God inspired the scriptures that speak to man’s perspective.
Phil. 1:4-6 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Keith,
I had thought about Judas being a thief before I wrote that question. But, are you sure that him sinning positively excludes him from being one of the apostles? Are you sure that this sin going on in him has doomed him to perdition? Perdition means utter destruction of the soul to hell. Every believer has been a sinner and some were thiefs. You might say that some “true believers” still sin and some might even steal.
Your next statement, I do not understand what you meant by it. My point was that Jesus stated that of all that the Father had given him, Judas was the only one he had lost.
Thanks for joining in.
Daniel,
You said, “If you take away from my book, I will take away from your book. But, there name is not written in the book of life anyway.” Rev. 22:19 does not say if you take away from my book, I will take away from your book. We have no book. It says that if we alter the teaching in this prophecy (the book of Revelation), Jesus said that he will take our part out of his other book, the Book of Life. What would he take out of that book, other than their name?
The last part of this same paragraph that you wrote, I could repeat, just exchanging opposing words. – We must interpret scripture with scripture. If you think that this verse says that you canNOT lose your salvation, then you have to deal with other verses that clearly say that you CAN. Again, I am not presuposing the losing salvation due to a sin, I am looking at many verses that say that you CAN lose salvation, and interpreting other verses knowing that scripture cannot be in contradiction (that is my presuposition).
That is what I meant a couple nights ago, you seem to be ignoring what verses are plainly saying and trying to explain them away because they do not fit your doctrine.
Also, I responded back to one of your answers and asked another question, which you may have missed because it has not been mentioned again. So, I will copy those two paragraphs here:
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
I am not sure how you see this verse to say that Jesus emphatically states he will not take their names out of the book of life. It specifically states that he will not “if” they overcome. I did not take a verse that said he will not and apply it elsewhere to mean that he will. He said he will in the same verse, if they do not overcome. Read this whole letter to the church in Rev. 3. The whole thing is an exhortation to hold fast, repent; and a warning if you do not hold fast and strenghen those things that are about to die.
That verse is about as plain as it gets. We have a responsibility to be overcomers, or we are in danger of having our name blotted out of the book of life. We know what it means to have our name in the book of life and it is clear what it means to have our name removed from that book. And this whole concept sounds a lot like Heb. 6:4-6. If we get our name blotted out…it is impossible to renew them again to repentance.
I agree that God’s persepctive is not the same as man’s.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
I think you may have it backwards when you said, “This is why God inspired the scriptures that speak to man’s perspective.” It seems like God inspired scripture has the purpose of getting man, with his limited and sinful perspective, to see and understand the message from God’s perspective. They are not to help us see things wrongly just because it is our perspective.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Why would God want to communicate to us on a man-to-man level (our perspective) rather than on a God-to-man level? The scripture is profitable for teaching. They are for teaching man what God expects of him, based on His perspective, which is the only true and right way of looking at things.
Mike,
You said:
“I had thought about Judas being a thief before I wrote that question. But, are you sure that him sinning positively excludes him from being one of the apostles?”
I don’t think I made a statement about Judas being excluded from being one of the apostles. Nevertheless, Peter says in Acts that Judas was counted as one of them and had a share in their ministry. In Luke 16 Jesus is said to have named him an apostle as well. But it is God himself who ‘positively’ excluded Judas from being an apostle when he said in Acts 1,”For it is written in the book of Psalms,
‘LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE MADE DESOLATE,
AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT’;
and,
‘LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE HIS OFFICE.’ ”
Later in Acts 1:25 Judas is said to have turned aside from the ministry and apostleship. I think Judas is the perfect case study of 1Jn.2:19. From man’s perspective, Judas turned (Acts 1:25), which is true, but from God’s perspective, this was already decreed by Him and would come to pass (Acts 1:16). It is not God’s will that any should perish (paternal will–may or may not happen), but it was God’s will that Judas perish (decretive will–will happen). It’s hard for me to wrap my head around it. God’s ways are mysterious.
You also said:
“Are you sure that this sin going on in him has doomed him to perdition? Perdition means utter destruction of the soul to hell. Every believer has been a sinner and some were thiefs. You might say that some “true believers” still sin and some might even steal.”
I believe Judas was a “believer” in the sense that he believed Jesus was the (political) Messiah. But for lack of a better word, I do not believe Judas was a “repenter”. We have some insight into this from John, who informs us that it was a regular occurrence for Judas to steal from the money box. Contrast this with Zaccheus who, when he met the Lord in Luke 19, showed the true heart of repentance. So, yes his sins doomed him to perdition, just like all sinners who have not believed AND repented. While true believers may steal at times, they do not continue in a habit of sin (1Jn).
You also said:
“Your next statement, I do not understand what you meant by it. My point was that Jesus stated that of all that the Father had given him, Judas was the only one he had lost.”
I was being sarcastic. Sorry. Judas appeared like a true follower of Jesus to the rest of the apostles (Jn. 13:22), but he served another master–mammon.
Sorry for the long post.
Keith
For some reason, my post was removed from a few weeks ago. I asked people to read Eze 18. Maybe I should have given an explanation. Eze 18:21-22 talks about the person who was very wicked, but repented of his wickedness and lived righteously. Eze 18:22 says that man will live.
On the other hand, Eze 18:24 says, “But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? NONE OF THE RIGHTEOUS THINGS HE HAS DONE WILL BE REMEMBERED. Because of the UNFAITHFULNESS he is guilty of and because of the SINS he has committed, he will die.”
The point is not how you start in Christ; you must finish this life living in obedience to Christ. Those who endure to the end will receive God’s promise of eternal life. Those who don’t, Eze 18:24 says the righteous things they had done previously won’t even be remembered. This is why Jesus in Mt 7:23 said, “I never knew you” to those who asked him, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?”
We must be careful how we define grace. The Father will not drag anyone into everlasting life kicking and screaming. We are LED by His Spirit. God, however, is faithful to us. We, in turn, must remain faithful to him. The Apostle Paul exhorts the believers in Philippians by saying in Phil 2:12-13, “…continue to work our your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.” This is true grace–God’s willingness to save a very corrupted human race (through the suffering of His Son) and then, by His Son, His word and His Spirit, faithfully enable us to walk in our salvation if we are willing.
As I stated in my original e-mail, salvation is God’s promise. He who endures to the end will be saved. If we continue in our willingness and obedience we are truly His disciples. If we don’t, he will not even remember the good we once did. God is the same today, yesterday, and forever. What was true about God in Ezekiel’s time is still true about Him today.
The “once saved alway saved” mentality could lead to people not working out their salvation with fear and with trembling. A person could be taking a haphazard approach to his or her salvation. The person being saved does have a role to play–he or she must remain faithful and submitted to God.
Mike,
You have not made an attempt to respond to any of the verses that have been posted here. Please do not presupose what these verses in Rev. mean until you have dealt with those. Here is one to start with.
Phil. 1:4-6 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Sorry I was unable to get this posted on Friday. I had it all done and my computer messed up and I lost it all. But here it is as promised, why I don’t think that the fact that these “partakers” mentioned in Hebrews 6 are true believers.
Partakers (greek, metochos)- sharing in, or associate with.
This word does not necessitate that these people mentioned in this passage must be believers. This same word is translated as “partner” and “companion.” In Hebrews it is used to describe the relationship between Christ and the angels. In Luke 5:7 it is used to describe the relationship between fishermen. Now, is the relationship between believers and the Holy Spirit? No, the bible teaches that believers are filled with the Holy Spirit, not mearly associated with Him. The angels are not filled with the Holy Spirit, and this “filling” does not describe the relation between the fishermen in Luke 5:7. So, though these people had some relationship with the Spirit, it does not mean that they were filled with Him. So the question becomes, can someone filled with the Holy Spirit lose there salvation? I think the bible answers plainly, no.
The bible describes those who have received the Spirit as being sealed. This is seen in 2 Cor 1:21-22 which says, “Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.” Paul says that those who have received the Spirit in there heart are sealed and have a pledge
from God. Likewise Eph 4:30 says, “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.” Paul says that those who received the Spirit were also sealed till the day of redemption. Earlier in Eph 1:13-14 we read, “ In Him, you also, after listening to the message of, the gospel of your salvation having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.” Paul says a lot in these verses. First he says that after they heard the gospel they believed. He goes on to say that these who believed also received the Holy Spirit as all true believers do as a promise and that they were sealed by God in view of there redemption. I think that these passages are very strong in there teaching that those who truly receive Spirit are sealed. Paul also encourages the church with these words in Rom 5:3-5, “And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God had been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.” Paul is saying that they should rejoice because there tribulation will result in perseverance because they had received the Holy Spirit. Now, the relationship that these true believers in these passages is not the same as described in Hebrews 6. But, I will go through the context of this passage and show why I don’t believe that this passage is talking about true believers falling away.
Now, we have seen a lot of talk about Hebrews 6:4-6, but unless I missed it, I don’t think I read anyone who discussed the verses that follow. Verses 7-9 say, For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for who it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless an close to being coursed, and it ends being burned down.” The writer draw gives a picture of a crop that is tilled. He says that if it brings for vegetation it receives a blessing and if it brings only thorns it is usless and finally burned. Now, I hope we all know that ture faith produces works, or it brings forth useful vegetation. James 2:14 says, “What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but has no works? Can that faith save him?” James is saying that true, saving faith will have works, and that “faith” that does not have works cannot save you. Jesus said that those who love Him, keep His commandments. I think that we all believe that those who are truly saved, love Christ and desire not to sin, and to keep His commandments. I think that it is clear that the writer of Hebrews is trying to establish the difference between the people who he speaks of in verses 4-6, and true believers, those who bring forth true fruit. I think that the writer goes on to make a very clear distinction.
In verses 9-12 we read, “But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and still ministering to the saints. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patients inherit the promises.” The writiter says that they are CONVINCED of better concerning the beloved. Now, if he was trying to communicate that these people could lose there salvation, this would not make since. The writer does not know how much longer they will chose to be saved, but he is sure that they will not be those who he had spoken of earlier. He also goes on to say that they have “the full assurance of hope until the end,” in other words, they don’t need to worry, they are the beloved, they will make it. You see, the writer is not trying to communicate that the true believers are in danger of losing there salvation, but that the false believers are will lose there their false since of salvation.
We as believers can rest assured in the power of Christ it keep us until the last day. I’ve been continually bringing up several verses as assurance that those who come to Christ will not be lost. I have not received any exegetical response to lead me to believe otherwise about these passages, such John 6, 10, Romans 8, ect. These passages are very plain. I will also admit that the language used in Hebrews 6 is very strong, but we as believers are not to use our security as a licence to get sluggish. The bible is indeed full of warnings about those who would convince themselves that they are saved and in Matthew 7 Jesus says that He will say, “I NEVER KNEW YOU.” Not that at one time He knew them and they chose to walk away. He NEVER knew those who will be judged in hell.
Sorry about the long response. I hope that it helps everyone.
Robert
Curtis ,
Thankk you for your comments. You have stated in a very good way what it does mean to stay with the Lord until the end. Yes, as you said , the scriptures teach us that each one has the responsibility to stay faithful.
Curtis or Ray,
Curtis said, “God, however, is faithful to us.”
If we lose our salvation, then God has not been faithful to us, because He has not finished what He began at salvation as He said He would. If we can lose our salvation, then the seal of the Holy Spirit would mean nothing. If we could lose our salvation by our actions, then salvation is of works.
Ray B.
Thank you. This has been a wonderful discussion and frankly I can appreciate and respect both sides of this issue. We must seek after truth as for hidden treasure, because those who seek after it with the whole heart will find it.
Daniel Chaney
You can’t lose what you haven’t received YET. Salvation is God’s promise for those who remain in Him. God is faithful…He will not change His mind. Unfortunately, people change their minds all the time about everything. People say I would never do this or say that then turn around and do or say the very thing they said they wouldn’t do or say.
God is ever faithful leading, helping, teaching, strengthening, exhorting, correcting, disciplining, and warning us to endure to the end.
Robert and Daniel Chaney
We have a role to play to receive this great gift of salvation from the living God. Please note I said to receive and not obtain (to get possession by trying). What do you think Paul is saying in the following verses in 1 Co 9:24-27?
“Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.”
What does being disqualified from the prize mean to you?
Also, what do you think about Mk 9:38-40 which says the following?
“Teacher, said John, we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
“Do not stop him, Jesus said. No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.”
Please note that Jesus said “in the next moment.” This implies that OVER TIME (through unfaithfulness, disobedience, rebellion, unbelief, and the like) a person can turn away from Christ where he will not only stop being his disciple he will start speaking bad of Christ.
I would love to hear your explanations of the scriptures I have just quoted from the Apostle Paul and Jesus Himself.
Regardless of if we agree or disagree on this particular issue, God bless all here who are seeking to please God in spirit and in truth. This site is truly a breath of fresh air!
Curtis
Curtis,
You said, “You can’t lose what you haven’t received YET.”
I agree, but you also cannot lose God’s forgiveness of sin, your justified standing before God, or your place in His family (which is my definition of salvation). With that definition, what is your response to the statement I made?
“If we lose our salvation, then God has not been faithful to us, because He has not finished what He began at salvation as He said He would. If we can lose our salvation, then the seal of the Holy Spirit would mean nothing. If we could lose our salvation by our actions, then salvation is of works.”
Do you believe that salvation is kept or obtained by our works?
Daniel ,
The issue is not that God is faithful , the problem is with our faith and faithfulness. If we are not faithful He will disown us 2 Timothy 2 : 11- 15. God gives us everything to be faithful. All the spiritual resources for life and godliness so we can escape the corruption of the world but we have to grow in the graces to make our calling and election sure 2 Peter 1 : 3 – 11. If a Christian does not persevere to the end then it is that Christian who will be found to be unfaithful. God will not have failed but the Christian that decided by free will to depart and stay away until death without any repentance .
Sure the Holy Spirit is the seal of our inhritance. It is for those who are in Christ . Eph. 1 : 3. In the same letter Paul warns Chrsitans who are disobedeint that they will have to face the wrath of God. Eph. 5 : 3 – 7 However , if any Christian will heed the instructions in God ’s word then they can remain secure in Christ. It is remaining faithful. Our faith and faithfulness and love is expressed in our obedeince. And all are free will decisions. If not then how could we ever really love God ? It makes it sound like election is cold and robotic . And the non -elect are just doomed without any hope because there is just no way they can respond if they hear a thousand sermons on grace.
Daniel Chaney
Everything you described (forgiveness of sin, your justified standing before God, or your place in His family) is contingent on a person being in and remaining in Christ.
Salvation is a gift from God to those who believe the testimony He has given about His Son Jesus Christ. Believing what we have heard is what saves us. Good works are the evidence of that belief. Our good works, however, can only come about as we are enabled to do so by the WORK of the Holy Spirit if we continue to humble ourselves and be led by Him.
For example, if I tell my daughter it’s raining heavily outside, if she believes me, she will put on her raincoat, boots, and take her umbrella. If she doesn’t believe me, she won’t. How do I know she believed me (or how do I know she is a believer of what I said)? She goes outside dressed for the downpour I warned her about. If she doesn’t, she didn’t believe. In the truest sense, what saved her from looking like she took a shower with her clothes on? Believing what I (her father) said. Dressing appropriately was the evidence that she believed me.
Daniel, I am still waiting for you or Robert (or anyone else) to give me your understanding of 1 Co 9:24-27 and Mk 9:38-40.
Sin is very enticing. Over time, perpetual sin becomes sinfulness (living a sinful life) which ultimately leads to depravity. Through all of it, however, God remains faithful to us attempting to convince us of our sinful condition. But He resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. He cannot ignore a broken heart and a contrite spirit…which He is constantly looking for and trying to create in the sinner.
Curtis,
You were are not using that 1Cor 9 passage in it’s context. Salvation is not even address in this context. Paul is incourageing the believers he is writing to that they should see there Christian lives as more that a half hearted, get by race. He is telling them that they should treat it as though they are running the greatest race because they will recieve an imperishable crown. Maybe you could clear up what you ment by bringing up that passage.
In reguards to the Mark passage, you added a lot into the mouth of Jesus. He said, no implied anything that had to do with keeping or losing salvation. Please make sure you are using doing responsible exegesis on the Word of God before taking Jesus and Paul out of context.
Robert
Ray,
Eph 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
The men whom Paul is speaking to in this passage, are believers (ye also trusted, of your salvation, ye believed). Those who are saved are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a guaruntee that we will receive our inheritance. Believers are a purchased possession, that is guarunteed to be redeemed. Every true believer will have the Holy Spirit. If we have the Holy Spirit, then we have God’s stamp and will certainly be redeemed, and will receive our inheritance. We cannot lose the Holy Spirit.
Robert
People keep saying “lose your salvation.” I didn’t say people could lose their salvation. Salvation is God’s promise to the believer who endures to the end of his or her life. How can you lose what hasn’t happened yet. Hebrews 11:1 say, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Although I have not yet seen this salvation come to pass yet, one day it will. I believe with all my heart that Christ is coming back to save me from the wrath to come and to transform my lowly body to be like His resurrected body. As a result of my confidence in God’s promised salvation, I live my life in a manner that pleases Him, because without holiness no one will see the Lord (Heb 12:14).
Paul in the KJV of the Bible of 1 Co 9:27 said, “But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”
I certainly don’t want to misrepresent what God is saying to His Church. So I respectfully ask you what is Paul saying, if he is not saying I don’t want to become a hypocrite (preaching the truth but living contrary to it)? In Mt 23, Jesus vehemently condemned the scribes and the pharisee for their hypocrisy. Paul doesn’t want to become like them and neither do I.
Regarding Mk 9:38-40, again losing your salvation is not an accurate description for the reasons I already mentioned. Christ said in Mk 9:39, “No one who does a miracle in my name can “in the next moment” say anything bad about me.” He didn’t say he would “never” say anything bad about him. I don’t believe Christ makes mistakes when he speaks. He is God in human form.
I can certainly see a man who just healed somebody in the name of Jesus not being able to speak negatively of Jesus in the next moment. He has clearly just been used by the Spirit of Christ. I can also see that same man turning his back on Christ some time in the future, because of temptation and/or being persecuted for Christ’s sake. We can choose to accept God’s invitation to follow Christ and we can choose to turn away from Christ. But God is faithful, loving, merciful, and full of grace. He can get us to see the error of our ways and turn us back to Him before it’s too late.
I have a tremendous fear of distorting God’s word. With all due respect, I don’t believe I did that. Like you, my sole desire is to be an instrument that God uses to point people to Christ. I am always open to receive correction, because no man has a grasp of the entire Bible. I truly want to know the truth, because God’s truth has made me free and continues to do so.
Very respectfully
Curtis
Sorry about not answering, I have been gone most of the last two day.
Keith, (your comments on 1/13 at 1:16pm)
Sorry, I did not mean to put words in your mouth, I thought that was what you meant by earlier comments. If that (are you sure that {Judas} sinning would positively exclude him from being an apostle?) was not what you meant, then I missed something; because it sounds again like that is what you are saying in this posting. First, you tell us that Peter included Judas as one of them and that Judas had a share in the ministry. Second, you tell us that Jesus named Judas an apostle. But, then you tell us that “it is God himself who ‘positively’ excluded Judas from being an apostle”, from Acts 1.
Now I am more confused. If the scripture tells us that Peter considered Judas an apostle and so did Jesus, how could God say he was not? You seem to be saying that Jesus and God disagreed on this matter. The verse, in Acts, that you then quoted does not say Judas never was an apostle. It sounds like it is referring to the state of Judas after Satan came into hime and he became the son of perdition. “let another man take his place” refers to after the betrayal.
Then you quote Acts 1:25 that tells us Judas turned aside from apostleship. Doesn’t that mean that he was in apostleship? I agree that it was part of God’s plan from the beginning, but that does not change that he was one of the apostles, before falling away. I agree with your statement about God’s will.
In your next paragraph, I pretty much agree with all you said, it makes good sense.
Daniel,
In reference to “You have not made an attempt to respond to any of the verses that have been posted here. Please do not presupose what these verses in Rev. mean until you have dealt with those.”
I am not sure what you are referring to. I have said two or three times that I get your point with the key verses you use to make your argument, that they are very good verses and do seem to say exactly what you say that they say. What else am I supposed to say about them?
But, after making that concession, I have then asked you to explain what, to me, are some very plain verses and to tell me how they could mean anything other than that they plainly say.
I brougth up Rev. 3:5, “He that overcomes…I will not blot out his name out of the book of life…” The first time I mentioned this verse, you said I was taking the phrase out of context that says “blot out his name” and applying it elsewhere where it discusses overcoming. I responded by stating that it is in the same verse and sentence. You did not respond to the second comment. I asked you again to respond and explain this verse the third time. You now accuse me of not responding to your verses and telling me “to not presuppose what these verses in Rev. mean”. How is quoting a verse, presupposing? I am asking you, for the fourth time, what could this verse mean when you literally read what it says, if it does not mean that one who does not overcome could have his name blotted out of the book of life?
And please don’t say that it cannot mean what it clearly states because that does not agree with what else I believe.
Daniel, I do not mean to sound wrong or portray anything other than furthering the discussion and trying to see how some verses could possible reconcile with your beliefs. It just seems like you are avoiding Rev. 3:5.
Daniel,
As to Phil. 1:4-6
Paul is telling them that he is confident that God will continue to work in them until the day of Jesus Christ. To me, that sounds like a very nice vote of confidence and encouragement Paul is extending to the Philippians in his greeting. Paul saying he is confident is not the same as God telling them that, no matter what you do or how some of you may fall away, I guarantee that each and every one of you will have the work that I began in you, fulfilled when Jesus comes back.
I am also confident that God will continue this work in them, as long as they want it. I do not see anything here that goes against what I believe, that one has a will, does not lose it when he is born again, and if he is lead away by the deceitfulness of sin, his heart is hardened, he quenches the Holy Spirit, he falls away, that the work began in him will cease because it is impossible to renew him again to repentance.
Many people tell others that they are confident that they will be able to do something. This is not a guarantee that that event will ever happen. I am confident that the Suns will win the western conference. What happens if the Lakers pull it off? It just means that I was wrong in what I was confident about.
Your turn!
Mike,
Judas was an apostle. I don’t believe he ever was a true believer, as evidenced by his pattern of theft and his heart to betray Jesus. I think, like many others of the day, he was looking for a political Messiah, not a Saviour of his condemned soul. Also, remember, the apostles never came to Jesus of their own accord. It was Jesus himself who said that they did not choose Him, but He chose them, and one of them would betray Him. So Jesus picked Judas as an apostle (in God’s plan from eternity past), he never was a true believer, and God also ordained his falling away as an apostle (i.e. that the scripture would be fulfilled).
I wasn’t trying to show “disagreement” within the Trinity, just showing chronology. It is very clear from the text that Judas was an apostle and then was replaced after his death. My two points are this: that it was all orchestrated and brought to pass by God, and that Judas was never a true believer (proved to be an apostate).
Thanks for the reply.
Keith
Curits,
You said, “Our good works, however, can only come about as we are enabled to do so by the WORK of the Holy Spirit if we continue to humble ourselves and be led by Him.”
I totally agree with that. Good works are the result of the Holy Spirit bearing in us the fruit of the Spirit, when we are in fellowship with God. However, multiple verses tell us that we cannot lose the Holy Spirit.
You said, “Everything you described (forgiveness of sin, your justified standing before God, or your place in His family) is contingent on a person being in and remaining in Christ.”
If God has forgiven our sin, we cannot lose that forgiveness (Heb.10:14-17, Heb.8:12). The very essence of forgiveness would be violated if it could be taken back. If a man is declared to be just before God by God, then that declaration must stand.
Curtis,
Sorry, I had to switch computers.
Joh 6:38-40 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Unless Christ is not able to accomplish His Father’s will, all those who have been truly saved (given by the Father) will be raised up at the last day. Unless Christ failed, He will lose none.
Mike,
Paul, in Eph., is stating that if God has truly begun a good work at salvation, He will most certainly perform that work (sanctification) until the day of Christ. Also, I would appreciate it if you would look at, and respond to the verses in the above post to Curtis.
Rev. ~ I will have to respond to this with a series of questions. 1) Do you believe that God knew before He created the world, who would be with Him in heaven?
Curtis,
You are right to say that we cannot lose our salvation. You said that we cannot lose what we do not have yet. We do already have salvation. Eph 2:8-9 speak of having already been saved. Romans 8:29-30 says that those who were predestined will be justified and finally glorified. Now, it is true that we have not yet been glorified, but we are saved. It is proper to say we have been saved, are saved, are being saved, and will be saved. All these things are true. My point was that true believers will not lose there salvation, because they are sealed by the power of God to persevere until the end. I hope you do not feel like you must rest in your own power to stay faithful. It is true, as I have said several times on this post, that many will apear to have believed, but Christ never knew them. I also agree that we are not to live contrary to the Gospel that we claim has saved us, but our living does not determine our salvation.
I pointed your mistake in those passages, because you made strong statments about what you think that they imply, but the texts themselves do not say these things. The Paul who wrote that passage is the same who wrote Eph 1:1-14, “Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and {who are} faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed {be} the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly {places} in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, {that is,} the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God’s own} possession, to the praise of His glory.”
Robert
Mike,
Perhaps a better way to state the question is this: does the Bible teach that God knew before He created the world, who would be with Him in heaven?
Daniel Chaney and Robert
I fear that at some point, what we are doing discussing this topic as fellow believers will move past the point of building each other up to tearing one another down. I respect everyone’s belief on this. At some point, we all just have to agree to disagree. Regardless, everyone has my utmost respect, because I perceive that most, if not all, here are children of the most high God with an intense desire to please Him through the knowledge of the truth.
Robert, If you have read my previous posts, you should know that I don’t believe in salvation by works. If I could have saved myself by good works, there wouldn’t have been a need for Christ to come.
There seems to be enough scriptures to support both points of view. There are many other scriptures I could quote, but I will quote only one more…not to change anyone’s mind but so that you will understand why I believe what I believe.
“Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation–IF YOU CONTINUE IN YOUR FAITH, ESTABLISHED AND FIRM, NOT MOVED FROM THE HOPE HELD OUT IN THE GOSPEL. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.” (Col 1:21-23)
Very respectfully
Curtis
Daniel,
Yes. The Bible clearly teaches that the Book of Life was written before the foundation of the world.
Keith,
Thanks for the reply. I pretty much agree with what you said. Two minor points, one-I have trouble with the label of “true believer”. I do not see it as scriptural as the Bible refers to believers and unbelievers. I wrote much more about this way up the line of posts, here. Either someone is a believer are they are not, from what I see in scripture.
Second – because Judas proved to be an apostate, (again, based on what I believe and what I have written above in much more detail) does not mean he was not a believer. I am sure you realize by what I have written that I believe that Heb. 6 and 10 are discussing believers who become apostates.
Thanks again.
Mike F
I have enjoyed reading your posts…some would say of course I have because I agree with you (smile).
They are probably right (smile).
Hey Mike,
First of all, being a believer does not mean that one has been forgiven of their sins (saved), because the devils also believe and tremble. One who is a believer (believes in God) can turn from that belief, but one who is saved cannot lose that salvation.
You said, “Yes. The Bible clearly teaches that the Book of Life was written before the foundation of the world.”
Exactly (I appreciate your short answer). Next question: does God ever get any new information?
I felt like I owed Daniel Chaney and Robert a response to their comments to me. It would have been rude for me not to respond.
Daniel Chaney
Regarding the Holy Spirit. God said he would never leave us nor forsake us. He would be with us always to the end of the world. Humanity, on the other hand, will leave God and many have done so. There is nowhere in the scriptures where God has said man would never leave him or forsake him. The children of Israel did it too many times to count, and those that did not return to God paid the price.
Robert
I will make a comment regarding predestination and predetermination.
I have always understood those scriptures as pertaining to the body of Christ (the church) as a whole. Would you agree that concerning the unbeliever, Hell has been predestined and predetermined for them also?
God predetermined before the foundation of the world that he would have a people, who were made a little lower than the angels, as his very own. He would be our God and we would be his people.
I don’t believe that individual believers are predetermined in the way that you are describing it. Each person has to choose who he will serve (God or self). Salvation is presented by God as a decision or choice you have to make. After making the choice to follow Christ, you (the individual) must follow him to the end.
The body of Christ was definitely predestined and predetermined by God. As a result, who can oppose the Father’s will and purpose. It has happened according to his perfect will. The individual, however, is not predestined or predetermined by God. The individual has a choice to make: eternal life or the second death.
By God’s grace, he comes to us. By God’s grace, he convinces us of sin. By God’s grace, Christ came into the world. By God’s grace, Christ died for our sins and raised for our justification. By God’s grace, God gives us his Spirit who enables us to live a life that pleases him. By God’s grace, we will endure to the end. By God’s grace, we will live with him and Christ forever.
God, however, will not lead us to the end against our will. He has given us the capacity to disobey and to change our minds. We were made in God’s image and in his likeness. Choice is one of the abilities that God has given humanity that make us like him.
But, by God’s grace, he will keep coming after us because he ALONE is faithful.
May God continue to bless us with the desire to please him.
Curtis,
Thanks for the encouragement.
Daniel,
I assume you are talking about “Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.” Please read it for what it actually says. It says, you believe that there is one God, so do the devils. It does not say that the devils are believers in the gospel of Jesus Christ. When I talk about believers, that is what I mean; not someone who believes in something else.
So, as long as we are talking about believing in Jesus; yes, when we believe our sins are forgiven. Here are a couple of verses for support:
Luk 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Earlier in another comment, I wrote something about being saved. Saved means delivered. We can be delivered from several things. When we become a believer we are delivered from the power of sin. When we die, as a believer, our soul is saved. There are many verses that talk about being saved, looking forward to the saving of the soul, etc. This is what all the verses are talking about that refer to receiving the prize, etc. So, technically, sure, once you have your soul saved, you will not lose it.
But, since I know that is not what you meant, that is a sidetrack.
That was rare, you don’t get too many short answers from me, do you? Just curious, why is your answer to the question that I have asked, four times, a series of questions? My question is pretty simple. Does Rev. 3:5 imply that those who do not overcome may have their names blotted out of the book of life?
Answer to Question #2: God is all knowing and always has been. Along with writing the Book of Life, he set out his eternal plan. He is completely in control of that plan being fulfilled. God is in charge! Part of that plan was giving man a will – freedom to choose. I have shown above that there are times when man does not do God’s will, this is because we have a will. Man’s ways are not God’s ways. If man only did what God wanted him to do, then man’s ways would always be God’s ways.
Robert,
I just now had the opportunity to read your post on 1/13 at 9:47 PM about Partakers. I appreciate all you had to say and for taking the time to think it through and write it all down. I see you points and understand why you have reached the conclusion you have. I have a few comments about what you said.
You said that the same Greek word is translated as partner and companion. Strong’s Concordance, for KJV, does not show this word translated into compaion. It does show it translated into: fellow, partaker and partner. NAS Bible has companion instead of fellow in Heb. 1:9. That is the only place this Grk word is translated as fellow or companion. You mentioned that, in this verse, it is used as the relationship between Jesus and angels. When I read verses 7-9, it seems like the subject of angels ended in 7 and this word in 9 refers to men. The notes in the John MacArthur Study Bible indicate that it is more likely that it is referring to men.
Strong’s defines this Greek word for partaker (#3353)to mean: participant, that is a sharer. It is from (#3348) which is defined as: to share or participate, by implication belong to. This word is translated into: be partaker, pertain, take part, use. This word came from (#3326 and 2192). 3326 is a preposition and 2192 is the verb. #2192 is defined as: to hold…such as possession…
In Luke 5:7 (#3353) is the only place it is translated as partner. Luk 5:7 “And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them…” You could exchange partner with participant or sharer and have the same meaning.
What both verses that are translated into partner and fellow (or companion) show is that of sharing of something or participating in something together. They are not describing a relationship.
You wrote that believers and the Holy Spirit do not have a relationship, but that believers are filled with the Holy Spirit, not merely associated with him. The defination of Partaker does not include “filled” or “relationship” or “associate”, so you cannot substitue these for partaker. But, the defination does include sharer and participant, so you can substitute these in Hebrews 6:4 and it will make more sense.
Your argument that “partakers” (in Heb. 6:4) cannot mean believers because believers do not have relationship with the HS, but are filled with the HS; does not apply because the word is not about relationship. Using your argument, this would mean (since the partakers cannot be believers) that unbelievers have relationship with the HS. This, clearly, cannot be the case.
To reword your last two sentences in that paragraph: So the question becomes, can someone who is a sharer of the HS and a participant in the HS lose their salvation? I think the Bible answers plainly, yes.
Mike,
You said, “This is what all the verses are talking about that refer to receiving the prize, etc. So, technically, sure, once you have your soul saved, you will not lose it.”
But then how do you interpret the verses that have been shared that say that the Holy Spirit is our GUARUNTEE that we will receive that prize?
In my first question I asked, “does the Bible teach that God knew before He created the world, who would be with Him in heaven?” and you answered, “Yes. The Bible clearly teaches that the Book of Life was written before the foundation of the world.”
If the book of life contains only the names of those whom God knew before He created the world, would be with Him in heaven, then none of those names will be blotted out, because all will be in heaven.
You asked, “Does Rev. 3:5 imply that those who do not overcome may have their names blotted out of the book of life?” I believe that the answer is no, and by the series of questions, I am trying to show the logic behind that answer.
Third question: If God knew before He created the world, who would be with Him in heaven, and never gets any new information, then why do you think that He would have to make a change to HIS book that was supposed to only contain the names of those who would spend eternity in heaven? Either He gets new information, there is an error in the book, or there will be no changes?
Daniel,
I guess I should have expanded a little more on my answer to #2. I do not believe God gets new information. This is because he is all-knowing. That does not mean that he does not know that someone who was planned for salvation, will fall away and then have is name blotted out. Because he is all-knowing and knows the future, he is not caught off-guard when we do not do his will. This does not come to him as “new information”. It does come to him as disappointment and justice is served.
I have read many comments on this post asking those of us who believe that believers have the will and, though rarely I hope, make the decision to reject Christ; how can you undo the forgiveness of sin? I believe that forgiveness of sin is accounted to us when we are born again. The Bible tells us that we become Christians because of faith in the gospel. If we reject that faith, we will be sent to hell because of unbelief, just like any other unbeliever. The only difference between the two is any other unbeliever still has the opportunity to turn around and believe unto salvation. Heb. 6 tells us that the one who was there, left, cannot come back.
Answer to #3- No, he does not get new information, there is no error in the book, but yes, there can be changes in the book – very clearly stated in the two verses mentioned above, in Rev.
I agree that scripture must mesh with other scripture. When it does not, then we have to examine both to see where adjustment is needed to what we believe. Rev. 3:5 is very clear as to what it is saying. If it did not mean what it says, as you believe, why would it say that? If no names could be blotted out and no changes would ever happen, why, as God, have John write such a verse? God is not out to deceive us or scare us with false statements. When he had that verse included in that book, there was a reason – I believe it was a warning against not being an overcomer.
God has changed many things through the Bible from what he started out with. This does not mean he got new information or that he was in error. It means that man has a will and the ability to choose to not obey God’s will. When this happens, it affects that man, it does not change the overall plan of God. He still accompolishes what he set out to do. God’s eternal purpose will still be done.
Daniel, I asked you if Rev. 3:5 “implied” … You answered, no. How can you read it and say, no? Of course it at least implies that. I used “implies” as a way for you to say that it did, but … You said it does not even imply … That seems to indicate that you are not even willing to read a verse, that disagres with your belief, and actually see it for what it plainly states. I imagine that if you took that verse and had 50 people read it, who did not have prior doctrines to defend, it would probably be unamimous as to, yes, it implies that a non-overcomer could have his name blotted out.
I have been honest with you about your key verses. I read them and see why you believe what you say. I am just asking for the same from you in an open-minded examination of the verses that seem to say the opposite.
You explain Hebrews with John, etc. When the letter was sent to the Hebrews, they did not have the book of John sitting next to it to use as the authority as to what it said. They had to read that letter by itself. What the writer meant was not footnoted to John 6, 10. There were no trick verses to mislead the readers. It means what it says. But, what it says and means does agree with the rest of scripture. So, when a plain statement is found, we must not be so set in our other doctrine that we have to ignore those plain statements because they just do not fit. I have had numerous times when I came to that same point. Here is a verse that does not fit what I believe. What is wrong? I have had to adjust my belief several times. I will probably have to do it several more times. When I die, I will still have some things that are not just right, but my goal is to read the scripture, for what it says, and make my doctrine fit that. Sometimes this has been hard. Long held beliefs have had to be abandoned in order to try to line up with the word. I started this whole discussion to see if I was in error about these teachings. So, far I am not convinced as I see verses being ignored or explained away, when it is clear what they say.
John chapter 17 (KJV) -
At John chapter 17 Jesus prays to his Father (Jn.17:1 below).
Jesus is praying for all those whom his Father has “given” to him (Jn.17:6 below) and whom He has given eternal life (Jn.17:2 below).
Christ Jesus is praying for all those He has chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love (Eph.1:4 below).
In Jesus’ prayer to his Father, Jesus confirms that God the Father has sent him into the world.
And, in this prayer, He reveals that just as his Father has sent Him into the world, He has sent those whom his Father has “given” Him into the world (Jn.17:18 below), that those who have been “given” to Him are not of this world (Jn.17:14, Jn.17:16 below).
John 3:13 (below – KJV) confirms that no man ascends to heaven, except that he has come from heaven, as Jesus came from heaven. John 3:13 confirms John chapter 17, below.
Jn.17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
Jn.17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as THOU HAST GIVEN HIM (Jn.17:6, Jn.6:37 below).
Jn.17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou HAST SENT.
Jn.17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Jn.17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.
Jn.17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world (Jn.17:2): thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
Jn.17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
Jn.17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
Jn.17:9 I pray for them (Jn.17:6 above): I PRAY NOT FOR THE WORLD, but for them which thou hast given me (Jn.7:11 below); for they are thine.
Jn.17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
Jn.17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me (Jn.17:9 above, Jn.17:12 below), that they may be one, as we are.
Jn.17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition (Dan.11:36, Re.17:8); that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Jn.17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
Jn.17:14 I have given them (the church of God, 1 Cor.10:32) thy word; and the world hath hated them, because THEY ARE NOT OF THE WORLD (Jn.17:16 below), EVEN as I am not of the world (Jn.3:13 below).
Jn.17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Jn.17:16 THEY ARE NOT OF THE WORLD, EVEN AS I AM NOT OF THE WORLD (Jn.17:18, Jn.3:13 below).
Jn.17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth (Jn.17:19 below).
Jn.17:18 As thou (Father, Jn.17:11 above) hast sent me (Jn.5:24, Lk.10:16) into the world, even so have I ALSO SENT THEM INTO THE WORLD (Jn.3:13 below).
Jn.17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth (Jn.16:13, Jn.17:17).
Jn.17:20 Neither pray I for these alone (who I am with), but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; (those future yet to come)
Jn.17:21 That they ALL may be one (Eph.2:16); as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us (Jn.17:11 above): that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jn.17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Jn.17:23 I in them, and thou in me, THAT THEY MAY BE PERFECT IN ONE (Col.1:28); and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Jn.17:24 Father, I will that they also, WHOM THOU HAST GIVEN ME (Jn.17:9, Jn.17:11-12 above), be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD (Re.13:8).
Jn.17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
Jn.17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast love me may be in them, and I in them.
Jn.6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out (Jn.7:6 above).
Lk.10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that SENT ME (Jn.17:18 above).
Jn.3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven (Jn.7:18 above), EVEN the Son of man which is in heaven.
Eph 1:4 According as he (Christ) hath chosen us (Col.1:24) in him before the foundation of the world (Jn.17:24), that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Pat (ndbpsa ©) Bible Prophecy on the Web
Curtis,
Could you tell me how you understand what Paul is saying in Romans 8:6-8. Once I get your response I will have some more to discuss on the issue and why I disagree with your posistion. Thanks for the comment.
Robert
Mike,
thanks for taking the time to read my post. I can tell that really took a deep look at it. However, I am not sure that you understood what I meant. My point was that these people who were “partakers” of the Spirit are not said to be “filled” with the Spirit in this context. Now, I am not saying that believers could not properly said to be “partakers,” but that there relationship is more than just that, they are filled. The bible often says that those who are filled with the Holy Spirit are sealed, (see my references in the post on the subject)and that this is until redemption. So, as is clear of the people in Hebrews6, they were not sealed for redemption, because they fell away. If you read John MacArthur’s commentary on this passage you will see how he deals with it and he makes a strong case that I highly recomend you consider. I always go back to Romans 8:29-30. The chain of redemption is not one that is broken. It goes from predestination all the way to glorification. There is no room for the justified to fall away in God’s plan of salvation. I always use the NASB so that would explain your findings of the different ways the word is translated. We all love strongs, but it is not the only lexical sorce. Greek words, just like english words, are best defined by how the author used them. I hope this answers some of your questions.
Robert
Mike,
You said:
“Two minor points, one-I have trouble with the label of “true believer”. I do not see it as scriptural as the Bible refers to believers and unbelievers.”
I do see that. In fact, I read it…in James 2:19, of one who is said to (earlier) have “useless faith,” faith that cannot save. There are “believers” who have not repented. Where there is no true repentance to accompany belief in the Gospel, there is no salvation.
You also said:
“Second – because Judas proved to be an apostate, (again, based on what I believe and what I have written above in much more detail) does not mean he was not a believer.”
Actually, what I said was that we have insight into Judas’ true character, how he had never repented from his thieving ways. And we also see that the other apostles thought he was one of them. And then when he betrayed Jesus it was manifested (to them) that he never was one of them. And finally, thanks to God’s own writing in the Old and New Testament, we see that this chain of events was to fulfull prophecy, fully ordained and brought to pass by God Himself. I was not leaning on his apostacy as the only source of my argument.
In Christ,
Keith
Mike,
You asked, “Does Rev. 3:5 imply that those who do not overcome may have their names blotted out of the book of life?”
I did not look at the “imply” because I assumed (wrongly) that I knew what you were asking. Yes, on the surface, this verses seems to imply that a name could be blotted out of the book.
You said yourself that the book of life contains only the names of those who will be with God in heaven. I asked, “Does the Bible teach that God knew before He created the world, who would be with Him in heaven?” and you answered, “Yes. The Bible clearly teaches that the Book of Life was written before the foundation of the world.” The book of life was written before the foundation of the world, and God knew before He created the world, who would be with Him in heaven. The book of life contains only the name of those who will be in heaven.
Joh 6:37-40 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
You said that men do not always do God’s will, but Christ always does God’s will. He came to do God’s will, and this is what Christ came to do: to lose none of those that were given to Him by the Father, but that He should raise them up at the last day. Did Christ fail His mission of doing the will of God who sent Him?
Curtis,Could you tell me how you understand what Paul is saying in Romans 8:6-8. Once I get your response I will have some more to discuss on the issue and why I disagree with your posistion. Thanks for the comment. Robert
Robert
1. The mind that is controlled by the Spirit has “submitted” himself or herself to God. People can change their minds and stop being submitted to God, thereby, no longer being controlled by the Spirit.
2. Patricia Burns quoted verses from John 17. I will quote John 15:1-10. These words came from the mouth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
15:2 EVERY BRANCH IN ME THAT BEARETH NOT FRUIT HE TAKETH AWAY: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I AM THE VINE, YE ARE THE BRANCHES: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: CONTINUE YE IN MY LOVE.
15:10 IF YE KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
3. It sounds like a man that follows Christ can change his mind. Robert, I would love to get your take on these verses, especially John 15:9 & 10.
Very respectfully
Curtis
Curtis,
I asked for your thoughts on Pauls words in Romans 8:6-8. Will you please comment on these verses?
Thank you,
Robert
Curtis,
I will also give you my take on the John 15 passage tonight. I don’t have time to do so right now.
Robert
Robert
Also pay special attention to John 15:2 and 15:5.
Curtis
Robert
I gave you my thoughts in the first paragraph of my original response. I then followed that up with my second paragraph regarding John 15:1-10.
Please take another look at paragraph #1.
V/r
Curtis
I have to admit I like the description of God keeping me saved after I accepted Christ as Lord and Savior. I also admit that, when I pray, I ask the Father to keep me because I truly with all of my heart want to please him. I do not discount the importance of the Holy Spirit work in me and God faithfulness to me.
I do, however, have a problem with God saving some and God not being willing to save the rest and sending them to hell because of it.
Curtis
Sorry to take so long in responding. I posted something two nights ago that only showed up today. I have been waiting for the moderator to un-lock my postings.
Robert,
You are right, in Heb. 6, the partaker is not said to be filled with the HS. But, are you placing too much on what it does not say and too little on what it does say? There are plenty of verses that talk about believers where it does not say that they were filled with the HS. Just because it does not mention it here, does not necessarily mean it was not the case. As I discussed above, the word for partaker is not talking about relationship, but about sharing. Heb. 6 has the partaker sharing in the HS.
Curtis,
You said, “The mind that is controlled by the Spirit has “submitted” himself or herself to God. People can change their minds and stop being submitted to God, thereby, no longer being controlled by the Spirit.”
If we are controlled by the Spirit, will be led by the Spirit to stop being led by the Spirit?
You also said, “I do, however, have a problem with God saving some and God not being willing to save the rest and sending them to hell because of it.”
Read Romans 9:10-about 24 on this topic. This passage shows Pauls thoughts on this subject.
Daniel,
As to John 6:37-40:
“him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.” – No problem here, Jesus has promised that he will not case us out and another place that he will never forsake us. This is not the same as us forsaking him.
“the Father’s will…that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing…” It is the Father’s will that all those given to Jesus, that none be lost. It is also God’s will that “none should perish”. It was God’s will that Adam and Eve walk close to him and not eat of the tree. It was His will that the chosen people, coming out of Egypt, inherit the promised land. Jesus acknowledged a difference in his own will and that of the Father, when he prayed, “not my will but thine be done”. Man has a will that can turn away from God. We are not robots with no choice. Where is the glory to God to have those follow him who had no choice in doing so? God tested Abraham to see if he would choose his own will over that of God’s will. Jesus came to do the Father’s will.
No, Christ did not fail in his mission to do God’s will.
The problem is that men do not always do the Father’s will.
Daniel, just read your most recent post. Not to speak for Curtis, buy wanted to comment. We submit to being led by the Spirit. It is not something that we have no choice about. If that were not true, why would it tell us to not quench the Spirit? and, grieve not the Spirit?
Mike,
If Christ lost even one of those that was given to Him by the Father, then He would have failed that which He came to do.
There is a difference in God’s will (what would Jesus have us do) and God’s will (God’s eternal plan from eternity past). The first will is obviously not always done, I agree, but the second is always done with no exceptions. For instance, the first will is what we mean when we say, “you are stepping out of God’s will” and the second is what we mean when we say, “it must have been God’s will.” When Christ said that He came for the express purpose of accomplishing the will of God (to lose none) then He absolutely will accomplish that goal.
As to my comment to Curtis, I agree, we are not robots with no choice. But to what extent are we being led by the Spirit if we could fall away completely and the Holy Spirit could leave us? How much influence does the Holy Spirit have in our decisions?
Daniel Chaney
The Spirit would never ever lead us to not follow his leading, but we can choose to stop following his leading. I never said it happens overnight, but I definitely believe over time it can and has happened.
I will read Romans 9:10-24 as soon as I can. I know what scriptures you are referring to, but to be fair I need to carefully study them from your point of view before I comment on it. I will try to respond tonight, but it may be tomorrow morning.
I truly thank God for everyone here and for your sincere desire to please the only one who saves. We must submit ourselves one to another and we must reason together without devouring each other. I think we are doing that. What a mighty God we serve!
God bless everyone!
Mike F
Right or wrong (I am certainly open to that possibility), we are definitely on the same page.
Keep digging for God’s hidden treasure; it’s exceedingly more valuable than precious stones, gold, and silver.
Curtis
Mike,
the reason that I am paying a lot of attention to the fact that that these people mentioned were not speficially said to be filled with the Holy Spirit, is because the bible is clear that those who are will be sealed until the day of redemption. They will not fall away as those mentioned in this passage.
Curtis,
I do not want to give you a half hearted answer to you points on John 15, so I will try to get to the text tomorrow. I do however, want to comment on something that you said in an earlier post. You said,”I do, however, have a problem with God saving some and God not being willing to save the rest and sending them to hell because of it.” This is a common thought from those who reject God’s absolute sovereignty in salvation. What we must remember is that everyone deserves hell. God is not obligated to save any sinner. The fact that He chose to save even one God-hater should blow our mind. When we understand the holiness of God and His hatred of sin, it is much eaiser to understand why He allows some to pay the price for there sin in hell, while He only crushed the Son on behalf of the elect. I recomend that you read R.C. Sproul’s book “The holiness of God.” He is a great author, anyone would enjoy reading his work. Also, a preacher by the name of Paul Washer is very good and does some studies on God’s holiness. He is a very powerful speaker and you can find his sermons all over the internet.
Robert Wiesner
Robert,
It is absolutely amazing that God chose to save anyone! Thanks for you comments.
Daniel,
Christ or God do not fail because of a man’s failure. If a man fell away from God, that is not a failure of God or Jesus doing God’s will.
I agree completely, there is a difference between what God would have us to do (His will) and His eternal plan for the ages. That is where, I believe, some of the confusion comes in. I think you are mixing God’s will-eternal plan into an area that has His desire for each of us. God desires than none parish or be lost – not the eternal plan kind of will. God’s will is that none that He gives to Jesus be lost – again (I believe) not part of the eternal plan. God’s will was for Jesus to die on the cross – eternal plan. The way to distinguish between the two is to look at whether or not man’s will becomes a factor. It is not that man’s will is stronger than God’s will, it is that God established it this way – where man has a choice and will be held responsible for that choice.
I have learned, because of writing on this site, a better understanding of foreknowledge. But foreknowledge still means what it says – knowing before hand. Some Calvinists liken foreknowledge to pre-ordination. To me, pre-ordination seems to be more closely linked to predestination – the second step in the process.
I have also gained, over the past couple weeks, a much greater appreciation of what it means to be chosen by God to be called into the kingdom of God.
I believe that the difference between the two wills of God is deeper than you mentioned.
“For instance, the first will is what we mean when we say, “you are stepping out of God’s will” and the second is what we mean when we say, “it must have been God’s will.”
I sort of agree on the first half because that is showing that man’s will came into play. The second part still could be a part of the first kind of will, but the man’s will did not go against this kind of God’s will. It seems like God’s eternal plan is relating to more of the “big picture” and he will bring it to pass, in spite of men going their own way.
As to “How much influence does the Holy Spirit have in our decisions?” He has just as much as we give him. We can, based on scripture, grieve and quench the HS. Clearly He would not lead us to do that. We are instructed to submit to the HS and be led by Him. That means we have to surrender our will to that of God – a choice we have to constantly make. We only loose control of our life, when we become believers, to the extent we surrender it. There is a spiritual war going on around us for our souls. Satan is very happy with many of the US churches, as they teach contentment with the present state of the congregation. “Be not deceived”, a warning to stay alert as to the cunning wiles of the enemy, because the devil wants to distract us and neuter our walk with God.
Curtis,
I responded to you at 10:34 PM. For some reason, that post is waiting for moderation before being posted. Last time this happened, a couple nights ago, it took two days for it to show up.
Robert,
The reason I am saying that what it does not say, does not mean that they were not filled with the Holy Spirit. Do you believe that when a person is born again, that they are filled with the Holy Spirit? I do, and if you do, then why are we warned against grieving or quenching the Spirit? When we do either, what happens?
Curtis, since I can see what I wrote and has not been approved by the moderator, I will copy it here and see if this posts.
Curtis,
Thanks for you comments, too. As I said above, when I started out posting on this article (since the whole concept of Calvinism was new to me), I appraoched it with the possibility that it may be time to do some doctrinal adjustment. I came here to see what Calvinists believe and why, and to present an argument for what I believe and see if I receive a logical answer that explains the many verses that seem to say the opposite. I have been shown several scriptures that present the Calvinist teaching (along the lines being discussed) and I see what they mean by these verses. The problem I am having with accepting what is being shown to me is that the explanations for the other verses seem to be weak. I do not mean this in a bad or wrong way towards anyone. I just mean that these verses seem very clear as to what they are saying, I mean very clear! Yet, the explanation seems to be about the same each time. They can’t mean what they clearly say because that would not agree with the other verses that back up our belief. Again, I do not want to come across as harsh, mean, arrogant or anything else like that. I just want to see a better answer as to why to disregard these many verses. I admit that I do not have all the answers as to how these seemingly opposing verses come together, but there is a way that they do. That is what I am looking for, here. I am willing to give and adjust my belief, but I would have to be convinced, by scripture, that I have been wrong. There is a way that someone can fall away, or the warning would not be there. There is a way for someone to have their name blotted out of the book of life, or it would not say that. There is the requirement to be an overcomer, to run the race, to stay the course, to not quench the Spirit, to make our calling and election sure, etc., or they would not say that. To me, the evidence is overwhelming.
Mike,
You said, “Christ or God do not fail because of a man’s failure. If a man fell away from God, that is not a failure of God or Jesus doing God’s will.”
But we see in those verses that Christ came for the express purpose of not losing any. If Christ were to fail this purpose, the result would be what you say: loss of salvation. If a man were to fall away after being saved, Christ would have just lost one of those that had been given to Him, and therefore He would have failed the purpose for which He came. In this case it is not a matter of man doing the “will” of God, it is a matter of Christ doing the will of God.
Thanks for the discussion, I see where you are coming from. I don’t agree, but I see it.
Daniel Chaney
I see why you believe what you believe after reading Ro 9:10-24. But the entire chapter (Ro 9) is talking about God’s sovereign choice of Israel. Before the foundation of the world, before good or bad was done, he made Israel his chosen people. By doing so, all other people remained objects of God’s wrath.
Ro 9:4 says, “…Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;”
The sovereign mercy and compassion of God is for the purpose of glorifying Himself. Israel was the beneficiary of his mercy and compassion and Pharoah was not, as well as Esau and Ishmael. He is the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, so that excludes Ishmael and Esau according to is divine purpose.
He also used the already hard-hearted Pharoah in that way–to glorify Himself. Pharoah continuing with his opposition to God was God’s doing, but Pharoah gave God something to work with–an already hardened, arrogant, and proud heart.
Anyone with half a brain would have let Israel go very early on, but God had a plan to make His power known to the world for His glory and their salvation.
God uses people (the righteous and the wicked) for His glory. He knew what kind of person Pharoah was going to be, because He knows the end of all men from the beginning. So He raised Pharoah up for a time such as that. To use these scriptures to prove that God chooses to save some and doesn’t choose to save others ( therey condemning them to eternal punishment) is a tremendous leap. It’s one that I am not willing to make.
1 Tim 2:3-4 says, “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVE, AND TO COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.”
Men can accept or reject the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is why God commands us to go into all the world and preach it, because faith comes by hearing the word of God. Once a man has heard the word of God in spirit and in truth, he is without excuse. Man condemns himself to hell by rejecting the gospel of Jesus Christ.
V/r
Curtis
Curtis,
Yes, Romans 9 is talking of God’s sovereign choice of Israel, but it is also talking of God’s sovereign choice in salvation. We see this most clearly in vs. 24 “Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” So this passage is speaking of God’s choice in salvation, not just His choosing of Israel. In vs. 19 an objection is raised against this “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?” Here we see that Paul is anticipating someone saying that this doctrine is unfair because man would not be responsible for his actions, and therefore should not be punished. It is completely fair for God to fit one vessel to honor and another to dishonor.
This doctrine does not negate the necessity to preach the gospel, however. We do not know whom God has chosen, and therefore must preach the gospel to all people, because that is the means that God has chosen to use (how shall they hear without a preacher). God certainly save a man without our help, but has chosen this means of salvation. Yes, man can accept or refuse the gospel. We are without excuse even if we never heard the gospel. We are condemned already (even before we reject the gospel). But Christ died to pay the penalty for my sins so that I wouldn’t have to. God forbid that I should sin so that grace may abound. If I turn from the faith, Christ has not failed his purpose, for He will indeed lose none that are given to Him, but it is made manifest that I had never been given to Him in the first place.
Mike,
the fact that this passage does not say that they were filled with the Holy Spirit and that they fall away DOES mean that they were not filled with the Spirit. Those filled with the Spirit are SEALED according to Eph 1&4. We do recieve the Spirit at the new birth. As believers we can grieve the Spirit by walking in sin, but this does not mean that a saved person has lost there salvation.
Robert
Mike,
Perhaps a good way of saying it is this: If it is my job to keep a child out of the street, and that child walks out into the street, did I fail my job?
Daniel Chaney
A. I hear Paul saying in a general sense that God will do whatever He wants to do with or through whomever He wants to do it. No man’s understanding or approval of His plan is required and why is that? Isa 55:8-9 explains it.
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
B. Let me give you an example in the Book of Habakkuk.
1 The prophecy that Habakkuk the prophet received.
Habakkuk’s Complaint
2 How long, LORD, must I call for help, but you do not listen? Or cry out to you, “Violence!” but you do not save?
3 Why do you make me look at injustice? Why do you tolerate wrongdoing? Destruction and violence are before me; there is strife, and conflict abounds.
4 Therefore the law is paralyzed, and justice never prevails. The wicked hem in the righteous, so that justice is perverted.
The LORD’s Answer
5 “Look at the nations and watch and be utterly amazed. For I am going to do something in your days that you would not believe, even if you were told.
6 I am raising up the Babylonians, that ruthless and impetuous people, who sweep across the whole earth to seize dwellings not their own.
7 They are a feared and dreaded people; they are a law to themselves and promote their own honor.
8 Their horses are swifter than leopards, fiercer than wolves at dusk. Their cavalry gallops headlong; their horsemen come from afar. They fly like a vulture swooping to devour;
9 They all come bent on violence. Their hordes advance like a desert wind and gather prisoners like sand.
10 They mock kings and scoff at rulers. They laugh at all fortified cities; by building earthen ramps they capture them.
11 Then they sweep past like the wind and go on—-guilty people, whose own strength is their god.”
Habakkuk’s Second Complaint
12 LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, you will never die. You, LORD, have appointed them to execute judgment; you, my Rock, have ordained them to punish.
13 Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrongdoing. Why then do you tolerate the treacherous? Why are you silent while the wicked swallow up those more righteous than themselves?
14 You have made people like the fish in the sea, like the sea creatures that have no ruler.
15 The wicked foe pulls all of them up with hooks, he catches them in his net, he gathers them up in his dragnet; and so he rejoices and is glad.
16 Therefore he sacrifices to his net and burns incense to his dragnet, for by his net he lives in luxury and enjoys the choicest food.
17 Is he to keep on emptying his net, destroying nations without mercy?
C. Habakkuk (the clay) is stunned by what the Lord (the Potter) has allowed and what the Lord is planning to do. But the Lord will use who He wants, when He wants, how He wants and there isn’t a soul in all creation who can oppose Him. He is the potter and all creation is His clay.
Then there is Isaiah 55:6-7
6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
D. The Lord is telling the wicked to turn to Him. The wicked can choose to do so or not. Whichever they decide, the wicked (all humanity) have a choice. God has prepared the table through Christ. Through Christ, God is inviting the wicked to come eat and drink. Check out Isa 55:1-3a:
1 “Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters;
and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost.
2 Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and you will delight in the richest of fare.
3 Give ear and come to me; listen, that you may live.
V/r
Curtis
Curtis,
Absolutely. I agree 100 percent. The wicked can choose to turn to Christ. They are to blame if they don’t. But then we also see that God makes them into the type of vessel they are anyway. For my knowledge, how would you explain these seemingly contradictory statements?
Daniel Chaney
That’s a great question. I have to go back to Phil 2:12-13 (and other scriptures like it):
“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
This relationship is initiated and maintained by the living God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. I did not choose God. He chose me. It’s God who first loved me. By His great mercy, grace, and love, He has given me an understanding. I am held accountable for this understanding. He then tells me to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling.
The scripture says to whom much is given much is required. And what is required? That I love the Lord my God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. And how do I do this love for God? Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments. But I can’t keep His commandments on my own and thankfully God has never asked me to. For it is God which worketh in me both to will and to do of His good pleasure. This relationship is a heart thing. He causes me to want Him…and I want Him to cause me to want Him. I don’t want to live in sin, disobedience, and rebellion. Because I want to please Him, he keeps me.
For God so loved the WORLD that he GAVE His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believeth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
He offered and is offering His Son to the whole world and not just a few people. Every soul that opens his or her heart when He knocks will receive the Father and Son in his or her heart. We have to receive the gift of God’s Son as an act of our will. A gift is given, but it doesn’t have to be received. The intended recipient doesn’t have to take it.
V/r
Curtis
Curtis,
I am a little confused as to your position. You said, “I did not choose God. He chose me.” then you said, “We have to receive the gift of God’s Son as an act of our will. A gift is given, but it doesn’t have to be received.”
I believe that Christ’s death on the cross paid the penalty for my sins. Therefore, since those that go to hell thereby pay the penalty for their own sins, Christ must not have paid their penalty (God’s justice could not demand two payments). Had Christ paid the penalty for all, I believe that all would necessarily be saved.
I am not sure what you are trying to say to me. I am not sure whether you agree or disagree with my position. The first half of your post sounded like you agreed completely, but the second half seemed to contradict the first half.
Daniel Chaney
I’m sorry for the confusion. By “receiving” Christ, you also receive eternal life and escape the wrath of God. God “gave” Christ to die for the sins of the whole world. But if a man doesn’t accept (receive) that as God’s testimony about His Son he is calling God a liar, so that man remains condemned. He will not accept Christ as his substitute for his sins. He does not believe that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Or he doesn’t believe he has a need for Jesus. Either way, they are rejecting God’s Lamb. A man who does that will die in his sins because his condemnation remains. Let me add verses 17-21 to John 3:16.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
I hope this helps.
V/r
Curtis
Curtis,
So are you saying that Christ did not die for the sin of unbelief? If Jesus only died to make salvation potential and not actual, the work is only started at the cross and is finished at the believer’s “acceptance of the gift” or “activation of the potential.”
I believe that my salvation was purchased at the cross, and therefore my penalty was already paid. If Christ’s death was a pre-payment for everyone’s sins, then there is no more penalty to be paid. Even if they were to reject the gospel, their sins would have already been paid for, and they would therefore go to heaven. Also, if Christ’s death paid the penalty for everyone’s sins, then Christ, by His death, would have paid the penalty for those who were already in hell before He was born.
In some previous posts you made the following statements: “God chose us, we did not choose Him” “God will do whatever He wants to do with or through whomever He wants to do it. No man’s understanding or approval of His plan is required” “This relationship is initiated and maintained by the living God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.” “By His great mercy, grace, and love, He has given me an understanding.” “The sovereign mercy and compassion of God is for the purpose of glorifying Himself.”
I agree with these statements. But then if God has already chosen us, then why is salvation based on our choice? Will we not come to Christ if we have been chosen? If we have been chosen, will not God provide the desire, the means (preaching), and ultimately the choice itself?
Daniel Chaney
John 3:16 says, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son; THAT WHOSOEVER “BELIEVETH” ON HIM “SHALL NOT PERISH” BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.
The unbeliever shall perish if he doesn’t believe.
God has reached out to all humanity through Jesus Christ. God has initiated the relationship with mankind. He sought us; we did not seek Him.
It’s like a man who tells a woman I have chosen you to be my wife. The woman, however, says I don’t want to be your wife.
God tells mankind I want to be your Savior and Lord because you need me to be. A remnant will accept God’s invitation, but the majority will reject God’s choosing of them.
God called Israel His chosen people, but only a remnant believed and obeyed Him? Because of Israel’s unbelief, an entire unbelieving generation was unable to enter the promised land. They had to die off first, then Israel went into the promised land.
Believing God is nothing to boast about, because the believer hasn’t done anything with his body to earn salvation. Almighty God did all the work through the physical body of Jesus Christ. Mankind’s salvation is not a matter of what people can do with their bodies; salvation is a matter of the heart. Ro 10:1-11 makes this very clear.
Ro 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Ro 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Ro 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Ro 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Ro 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above])
Ro 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Ro 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ro 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Ro 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Hopefully, this will clear up my position.
Curtis
Daniel,
To go along with what Curtis is saying,
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. God gave every man the measure of faith. Man has the ability through his will to be able to chose God, because of the measure of faith given to him.
As stated above, John 3:18 and Rom. 10:4 show that it is belief that makes us Christians and unbelief that makes unbelievers condemned. When we believe, the work of the cross is accounted to us.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
The penalty for sin has been paid. It is his faith that is credited as righteousness, not that his sin’s were covered.
Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
“Justification of life to all men.” The price paid on the cross covers the sins of the whole world.
Rom 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Rom 8:12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh– Rom 8:13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
So, those that are led by the Spirit are sons of God. Submitted believers are those led by the Spirit.
Rom 8:19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God…Rom 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. Rom 8:24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
The salvation of our souls will be revealed at our death or Christ’s return. He that endures to the end will be saved. He that overcomes…, etc.
Jesus died once for all, for the penalty of the sins of the world. When we believe, it is accounted to us. That is why Heb. 6:4-6 tells us that it is impossible to renew him again to repentance, seeing he would crucify the Son of God, afresh (again). So, until a man has believed the first time, he has not had the penalty accounted to him the first time. Once he has believed, the death on the cross is credited to him. If he were to fall away, reject the gospel and Jesus and the grace that had been given him for the forgiveness of sin, then it is impossible for him to come back to do it the second time. It would be the same as needing the death done again so it could be accounted to him the second time. This is why Heb. 6 must be referring to believers. They already had the death accounted to them, once.
Mike and Curtis,
I would be happy to discuss salvation with you on another discussion board, but I think we should try to stick to the topic at hand, which is perseverance or preservation of the saints.
Mike, in reference to Christ’s purpose for coming to the world being that of losing none that were given Him:
If it is my job to keep a child out of the street, and that child walks out into the street, did I fail my job?
Mike F
Very well said!
Daniel Chaney
We have gotten off topic. To answer your question…
I think the comparison of an adult keeping a child out of the street is and oversimplified one. We are God’s children, but we are not to act like little children. We grow in the grace and knowledge of Him. Jesus said, “Follow me.” Paul said, “Follow me as I follow Christ.”
The Holy Spirit leads, guides, comforts, teaches, corrects, warns, rebukes, empowers, strengthens, etc., to keep us on the straight and narrow path to everlasting life in Christ. We are not like a child who doesn’t understand the consequences of his or her actions. God has made us children of light and the salt of the earth.
The Apostle Paul tells the Corinthians in 1 Co 14:20 (KJV)to be the following: “Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.”
The NIV translations says, “Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.”
Curtis
Mife F and Daniel Chaney
I submitted a short reply this morning at 7:54am, but my comments are still awaiting moderation.
V/r
Curtis
I found a treat for everyone who has been involved in this discussion of God and man’s roles in salvation. Please take the time to view/listen.
In Christ,
Keith
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U96fkt2CJyw&NR=1
Keith,
I listened to the clip by John MacArthur. Excellent! One view is the way I see it as a man (or a vessel), the other is the way God sees it as the potter. We personally must make our calling and election sure; this is how we see it. However, God is the one that keeps us saved; this is how God sees it. God’s view is ultimately true, but both are legitimate, and both are spoken of in scripture. How are they both equally true? I believe it is because of what I just said, one is God’s view, and one is man’s view. Thanks for posting that link.
Keith
I watched the video. I have no problem at all with what he said.
I continue to stress, however, that the Bible says it is God’s will that ALL men be saved. God has invited all to come. WHOSOEVER will, let him come. The elect of God are the “whosoever wills.”
Curtis
Daniel,
I apologize for my last posting. Not only was it long but it got off track. I was up too late, last night, reading in Romans and finding these scriptures and ended up copying some that were off topic. However, the very last paragraph was on topic and I will copy it here, for your responce:
Jesus died once for all, for the penalty of the sins of the world. When we believe, it is accounted to us. That is why Heb. 6:4-6 tells us that it is impossible to renew him again to repentance, seeing he would crucify the Son of God, afresh (again). So, until a man has believed the first time, he has not had the penalty accounted to him the first time. Once he has believed, the death on the cross is credited to him. If he were to fall away, reject the gospel and Jesus and the grace that had been given him for the forgiveness of sin, then it is impossible for him to come back to do it the second time. It would be the same as needing the death done again so it could be accounted to him the second time. This is why Heb. 6 must be referring to believers. They already had the death accounted to them, once.
Thanks,
Mike F
I also just watched the UTube video. It is very good and seems to say that we are each right, to some degree. Since it has to do with salvation, and per the note above, we are sticking to the subject of Heb. 6:4-6; we will save (get it?) it for another time.
Thanks for the link. I also found other videos by John MacArthur very interesting and informative.
Hey Mike,
Here is a clip from Matthew Henry’s commentary on Hebrews 6:4-5.
“He shows that this spiritual growth is the surest way to prevent that dreadful sin of apostasy from the faith. And here,
1. He shows how far persons may go in religion, and, after all, fall away, and perish for ever, Heb_6:4, Heb_6:5. (1.) They may be enlightened. Some of the ancients understand this of their being baptized; but it is rather to be understood of notional knowledge and common illumination, of which persons may have a great deal, and yet come short of heaven. Balaam was the man whose eyes were opened (Num_24:3), and yet with his eyes opened he went down to utter darkness. (2.) They may taste of the heavenly gift, feel something of the efficacy of the Holy Spirit in his operations upon their souls, causing them to taste something of religion, and yet be like persons in the market, who taste of what they will not come up to the price of, and so but take a taste, and leave it. Persons may taste religion, and seem to like it, if they could have it upon easier terms than denying themselves, and taking up their cross, and following Christ. (3.) They may be made partakers of the Holy Ghost, that is, of his extraordinary and miraculous gifts; they may have cast out devils in the name of Christ, and done many other mighty works. Such gifts in the apostolic age were sometimes bestowed upon those who had no true saving grace. (4.) They may taste of the good word of God; they may have some relish of gospel doctrines, may hear the word with pleasure, may remember much of it, and talk well of it, and yet never be cast into the form and mould of it, nor have it dwelling richly in them. (5.) They may have tasted of the powers of the world to come; they may have been under strong impressions concerning heaven, and dread of going to hell. These lengths hypocrites may go, and, after all, turn apostates. Now hence observe, [1.] These great things are spoken here of those who may fall away; yet it is not here said of them that they were truly converted, or that they were justified; there is more in true saving grace than in all that is here said of apostates. [2.] This therefore is no proof of the final apostasy of true saints. These indeed may fall frequently and foully, but yet they will not totally nor finally from God; the purpose and the power of God, the purchase and the prayer of Christ, the promise of the gospel, the everlasting covenant that God has made with them, ordered in all things and sure, the indwelling of the Spirit, and the immortal seed of the word, these are their security. But the tree that has not these roots will not stand.”
Mike,
Yes, we are both correct to some degree. This is the issue of perspectives that I have brought up now and then. But of course we will have to “save” it for another time.
Daniel Chaney
I enjoyed reading your post with Matthew Henry’s commentary on Hebrews 6:4-5.
I really hope that what he said is true about the so-called “truly” saved: that God will somehow bring us back to right relationship with Him no matter how far we fall. In the meantime, however, I will do what Paul tells “me” to do: Continue to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. I will also continue to be as wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove (smile).
Again, I really enjoyed the commentary.
V/r
Curtis
Mike,
I would disagree that the video is not pertinent. The topic of the video is election. Election states that salvation is God’s sovereign choice that He makes from eternity past. Election does not refer to the initial response to the call of the Gospel only, but of election to eternal life! If a man is elected by God from eternity past, where is the scripture that shows a man can become unelect?
What I hear from your view is that a man can choose to accept the Gospel, be saved, and then choose to turn from Christ and become lost again. Why even use the term saved in the first place if that is the case? Saved from what? Certainly not from the penalty of eternal destruction, because that is contrary to election.
2 Thes. 2 13-15:
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
God has chosen us from the beginning for salvation (the end state…even to glory) THROUGH sanctification and faith. And yet, we have the responsibility to stand firm. Here you see God’s declaring the end from the beginning and yet our will present as well. I agree with Pastor MacArthur that both sides hold true. But this also means that since election holds true, the elect WILL be saved…period. You cannot lose your salvation.
That is how I see the point as relevant, and not something to “save” for later.
Keith
My second paragraph sounded a little confusing to me when I read it again. It reads:
Certainly not from the penalty of eternal destruction, because that is contrary to election.
What I meant is that if a person can lose their salvation, they were not elected TO eternal life. They must have been elected to something else, I suppose.
Keith
Keith,
My comment about the video not applying, was in reference to an earlier post by Daniel, suggesting we stick to the subject and discuss salvation somewhere else. But, I do see what you mean by tying it into this discussion.
Your next paragraph has my position a little wrong. You said, “What I hear from your view is that a man can choose to accept the Gospel, be saved, and then choose to turn from Christ and become lost again. Why even use the term saved in the first place if that is the case? Saved from what? Certainly not from the penalty of eternal destruction, because that is contrary to election.”
My view, a man can choose to accept the Gospel, be born again, later choose to reject the gospel and be lost again. If you ask what is the difference, it is between being saved and being born again, they are not the same. So, when you ask, “Why even use the term saved”, I didn’t, unless I had a mental lapse. I have commented on this above, and will summarize again here. We are saved (delivered) from the power and penalty of sin, when we become believers – the Spirit comes to dwell within us, giving life to our spirits; thus, born again. Our soul will be saved at our death or when the Lord returns. This is why I believe that scripture teaches that we must stay the course, be overcomers, etc, to the end; looking forward to the prize, looking forward to the saving of the soul, etc. As the Bible states, he who is not an overcomer will have his name blotted out of the book of life.
Although this is also, somewhat of a sidetrack, it also ties in as our salvation is still being worked out and this has to do with the possibility of falling away.
Mike,
You have not yet responded to my analogy of the little child choosing to run out into the street. If Christ’s goal is to lose none, then will He lose any?
Mike,
You know, I don’t think I have ever realized what you have been saying:
“If you ask what is the difference, it is between being saved and being born again, they are not the same.”
I would be very careful about making a statement like this, brother. I am exhorting you to get back into scripture on this issue, read some good commentaries, talk to your pastor…but primarily get back into scripture on this issue. Honestly, I just have to say that your view on this topic is wrong. The scriptures DO teach that we are saved when we are born again and there really is not room for differences of opinion on an issue as important as the salvation of mens’ souls.
Just to get you started, take a look at Titus 3:4-8
“But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, HE SAVED US, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. THIS IS A TRUSTWORTHY STATEMENT; …”
He SAVED (past tense) us, Mike. Being born again (renewing by the Holy Spirit) is being saved.
There is a past moment of salvation for all believers, a present being saved (1Cor 1:18), and a future salvation to be revealed. I believe there is a great deal to be discussed on each of those, but the point is that the moment we became born from above we were saved. Scripture is very clear on that.
Here’s some other scriptures for you to chew on:
Jn 1:12-13, 3:1-21; 2Cor 5:17; 1Pet 1:3-9; 1Jn 2:28-3:3 (born again is equated to being a child of God); 1Jn 3:9-11 (we don’t continue in sin BECAUSE His seed abides in us), 4:7-14; 5:1,4,18(if you are born of God, Jesus keeps you, and the evil one does not touch you).
Mike, from your comments, I thought you already believed/knew this. I’m sorry I mispoke your position. Even in your last response to me you wrote:
“We are saved (delivered) from the power and penalty of sin, when we become believers”
What is the penalty of sin? (I hope we all agree that it is the second death) If we are saved from that penalty, but then incurr it again, we’re we ever really “saved” in the first place?
Please understand that I am putting my foot down here out of concern for you.
Your brother in Christ,
Keith
If saving faith does not mean just that, then what is it? Were we really saved from something if that something is placed on us again? If saving faith does not protect us from the penalty of sin, then what is it worth?
We would all agree that election, regeneration, salvation, adoption, and justification are all supernatural works, incapable of being performed by fallen and sinful men. How powerful, then, we must be if, in our sinful state, we can undo the supernatural work of almighty God by our works, or lack of them.
Keith,
Thanks for your sincere response and concern. As I am working and have appointments to get to, I will have to wait until later to further explain what I mean by what I said.
Just as food for thought – do you believe that the spirit and soul are two different things, or can the two terms be used interchangeably?
Be back later…
Daniel Chaney and Mike F
Daniel, I commented on your analogy of the little child choosing to run out into the street. The moderator cleared it last night or this morning I guess. I posted it on 19 Jan 2008 at 7:54am. Please scroll up and take a look at it if you haven’t read it yet.
I was hoping to get your response to it.
V/r
Curtis
Keith
Are you saying that God chose the people to be saved from the beginning and the rest He did not choose to be saved?
Because God chose the ones to be saved, this gives Him the right to condemn the ones He did not choose even though they can’t believe Him because He didn’t choose them.
Is this what you are saying? If you are, we are no different than the animals who live by instinct. But we were made in God’s image and in His likeness. He has given us the ability to believe or not to believe. It’s exactly what Adam and Eve did in the garden–they chose not to believe what God had said to them and suffered the consequences. They were cut off from the tree of life.
So God is going to be angry with the ones He purposely did not choose and condemned them to hell because He didn’t choose them?
God is angry with them although He didn’t choose them. We are “saved” from the wrath of God because He chose us, while everyone else will endure the His wrath because He didn’t choose them?
Are you saying the elect are the ones that God makes believe on Christ and the others He doesn’t want them to believe, so that can’t, bringing upon themselved the wrath of God and the damnation of hell and the second death?
I don’t believe that is the God of the Bible. He said His Son died for the sins of the whole world, so “whosoever” can be saved from His wrath by believing what He has said about His Son. He said whosoever will, let him come. The criteria for salvation is believing. God is not preventing people from ever believing then punishing them forever for it.
1 John 5:1-13
[1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
[2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
[3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
[4] For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
[5] Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
[6] This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
[7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
[8] And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
[9] If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
[10] He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
[11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
V/r
Curtis
Curis ,
Good comments. Some would say that he passages you gave are only for the elect. I like you find it difficult to not believe the whosoever passages teach free will. Every person has a free choice to make to either accept or reject the gospel.
One of the ways to approach election is to ask if it is individual or corporate. The scriptures teach that those who choose to believe and obey the gospel are included in the elect. In other words , election is a corporate term.
Curtis,
I’ll respond in sections…
“Are you saying that God chose the people to be saved from the beginning and the rest He did not choose to be saved?”
Yes. Not only am I saying it, God says it.
“Because God chose the ones to be saved, this gives Him the right to condemn the ones He did not choose even though they can’t believe Him because He didn’t choose them.”
He has the right to condemn all, Curtis, for all have sinned. He is the potter, we are the clay. He has every right to make one lump for honor and one for dishonor. It sounds like you’re making the “that’s not fair” argument. Paul answers that argument much better than I can in Romans 9:19-24.
“If you are, we are no different than the animals who live by instinct.”
I believe that is a non sequitur argument. Scripture’s clear teaching of election is not in contradiction with God’s unique creation of man in his own image. You’re imposing on me a jump in logic that I did not make. Please don’t do that.
“But we were made in God’s image and in His likeness. He has given us the ability to believe or not to believe.”
The first statement you make does not demand the second. You’re making an unscriptural leap. There are none who seek after God (Romans 3:11). Faith is the gift of God (Eph. 2:8)
“It’s exactly what Adam and Eve did in the garden–they chose not to believe what God had said to them and suffered the consequences. They were cut off from the tree of life.”
That statement by itself is correct.
“So God is going to be angry with the ones He purposely did not choose and condemned them to hell because He didn’t choose them?”
Yes he is angry with them. No, they are not going to hell because God did not choose them; they are going to hell because they sinned against a holy God.
“God is angry with them although He didn’t choose them. We are “saved” from the wrath of God because He chose us, while everyone else will endure the His wrath because He didn’t choose them?”
Pretty much, except that those who endure His wrath don’t do so because He didn’t choose them; it is BECAUSE of their sin.
“Are you saying the elect are the ones that God makes believe on Christ and the others He doesn’t want them to believe, so that can’t, bringing upon themselved the wrath of God and the damnation of hell and the second death?”
Yes to the first part; no to the rest that you wrote after the word “and.”
“I don’t believe that is the God of the Bible. He said His Son died for the sins of the whole world, so “whosoever” can be saved from His wrath by believing what He has said about His Son. He said whosoever will, let him come. The criteria for salvation is believing. God is not preventing people from ever believing then punishing them forever for it.”
You keep making the claim that God punishes people because he prevents them from believing. That is a fallacy that you are creating because you think the doctrine of election is unfair. The Bible teaches that man must believe AND repent to be saved (that is the criteria). The Bible also teaches that God chose the elect before the foundation of the world. When you make statements like “I don’t believe the God of the Bible…”, you have to realize it is the God of the Bible who speaks of this election. It’s not something that Calvinists “made up.”
I hope that explains my view a little better for you, because the view you just posted was inaccurate.
V/r, (BTW, are you military?)
Keith
Ray B.
I agree with you 100%. I have always understood those scriptures in Ephesians to pertain to the coorporate body of Christ. The body of Christ (the church) was predetermined/predestined and the elect (not select) are those who believe God’s testimony of His Son.
V/r
Curtis
Curtis,
I don’t think you understood my analogy of the child. It was not meant to say that we are to behave like children, it was meant to say that if that child went out into the street, then I would have failed my job. If we are able to choose to leave Christ after having been saved, then Christ has failed His job stated in John 6:37-40.
You said to Keith, “So God is going to be angry with the ones He purposely did not choose and condemned them to hell because He didn’t choose them?”
We are all deserving of hell by default for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It does not take a deliberate action by God to “not choose” some. Those who are not specifically chosen will go to hell by default. Only those who are specifically elected will go to heaven. Men do not go to hell because God purposely chose them for hell, they go there because He did NOT purposely choose them for heaven.
Curtis,
The “elect” are those whom God has predestined before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1:4,5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Also read Rom. 9:11; 11:5,7,28; 1 Th. 1:4; and 2 Pt. 1:10.
These are the elect.
You said, “…and the elect (not select)…”
You might be interested to know that the definition of election is: “divine SELECTION abstractly or concretely: – chosen, election; the act of picking out, choosing; of the act of God’s free will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons; the decree made from choice by which he determined to bless certain persons through Christ by grace alone; a thing or person chosen; of persons: God’s elect.”
Keith
Yes, I am military (smile). Sorry for the redundancy.
My commennts have nothing to do with me thinking that God is being fair or not. He doesn’t need my or anyone else’s permission to do anything that He does, because no one can oppose His will.
I am saying that you and others have misunderstood the scriptures on election, predetermination, and predestination. There are too many scriptures in the Bible that contradict that doctrine.
I believe it refers to the coorporate body of Christ (the church) being predetermined and predestined. You believe it pertains to each human being. I wholeheartedly disagree.
V/r
Curtis
Daniel Chaney and Keith
(Daniel’s comments) We are all deserving of hell by default for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It does not take a deliberate action by God to “not choose” some. Those who are not specifically chosen will go to hell by default. Only those who are specifically elected will go to heaven. Men do not go to hell because God purposely chose them for hell, they go there because He did NOT purposely choose them for heaven.
*********************************************************
I honestly believe that this is a complete misrepresentation of God’s word and His will.
Please explain 1 Ti 2:3-4 to me.
[3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
[4] Who will have “ALL MEN” to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Is Eze 18:23-32 applicable today? Of course it is. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
[23] Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[25] Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
[26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
[27] Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
[28] Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
[29] Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
[30] Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
[32] For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
V/r
Curtis
Keith
Correction: I “was” in the military. I retired 1 Sep 07 after serving 28 years in the Air Force.
Again, I sincerely apologize for the redundancy in my earlier post (smile). That was not my military background coming out; it was simply a passionate reply. I drive my introverted wife crazy (smile)!
V/r
Curtis
Curtis is right. The elect is a corporate term. Those who choose Christ are the predetermined elect. Not some arbitrary choice without free will. Too many passages speak to whoever will
Ray and Curtis,
Do we become the elect when we are saved? Which comes first, the salvation or the election?
Keith,
This post has been busy since I commented, this morning and you may not have seen my question. I look forward to explaining my position, but since it will take a while, I will have to do it later in the day, when I have more time.
Please resond to this question as it will help me with my answer and as to where to start.
Is the soul and spirit of man, the same thing, where the two words can be used interchangeably?
Thanks
Curtis & Ray,
I’ve heard the elect “boat” argument (that’s what I call it) before. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the way it goes is that the Church is elect, not certain people. The Church will be going to heaven, regardless of the decisions people make. That being said, people can choose to get on and off the boat (the Church). So whether people go to heaven or not is their own choice, but this elect Church will go to heaven because it is God’s choice. Is this accurate?
Problems with this:
What if no one decides to get into and stay in the boat? Then you have an empty boat that ultimately arrives in heaven. That’s not a good plan. I guess God would just be lucky if people decided to stay in it, right?
But wait, God has foreknowledge right? And scripture says there will be saints in heaven. So he knew that if he offered the chance to be in the boat that certain people would choose to stay in it and therefore would be with Him in heaven! Great plan, except that would mean that God would have had to create the boat plan and THEN “play it out” in His crystal ball to see if that plan would work. I wonder how many plans he had to go through before he came up with the boat plan.
You see the problem with this? It leaves God in a position where He has to respond to what people do. That is not a sovereign God.
I’m sorry, but God does not take up counsel with man before determining when, how, and why He does things. He is the sovereign, not us.
I guess the last and greatest problem that “boat” proponents must deal with is that this is not a scriptural doctrine. And by doctrine, I mean something that scripture actually teaches. Scripture does teach that believers are chosen before the foundation of the earth. Scripture does teach that man has a choice to make and must repent. Just because the two don’t jive in our minds doesn’t mean there is a contradiction.
Example: Was Jesus 100% God or 100% Man? Yes….but that’s 200% right? That can’t be right, because my mind says it can’t. On the contrary, I don’t have to make sense of it for it to be true. God’s mind is infinite and mine is very finite.
Keith
P.S. Curtis, it was the “V/r” that gave you away. I’m in the Navy.
Daniel Chaney
Ray and Curtis,
Do we become the elect when we are saved? Which comes first, the salvation or the election?
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Daniel
God knows the end of every human being from the beginning. He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. Time is something we are subject to, not God. He presides over time.
As I have previously stated, God preordained and predetermined the body of Christ (the church) not individuals. The elect are the saved. The saved are the elect.
Please explain 1 Ti 2:3-4 to me.
[3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
[4] Who will have “ALL MEN” to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
V/r
Curtis
Keith
I here you…but I wholeheartedly disagree. Virtually, every book in the Bible (Old and New Testament) tells man to repent of his or her wicked living and be saved.
Based on your logic, God should have skipped this whole process and just made man in a glorified body from the beginning. Doing so would have eliminated the need for Christ to come to earth as a man, endure brutal torture and ridicule, and die for the sins of the world. It would also have made it impossible for a man who had no choice in the matter to have to go to hell since the condemned man would never had existed in the first place.
I can’t believe you don’t see how what you are saying is a very presumptuous theology.
Also, I’m still waiting for your explanation of 1 Ti 2:3-4.
[3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
[4] Who will have “ALL MEN” to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
I never considered V/r to be a military term, but I suppose it is (smile).
With sincere appreciation (Thought I’d change my saluation this time (smile)).
Curtis
Curtis,
You said, “God knows the end of every human being from the beginning. He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. Time is something we are subject to, not God. He presides over time.”
I agree, so which came first, the election or the savation?
You do not seem to understand the nature of election. It is the act of God CHOOSING man. Its very meaning is SELECTION. God selected the elect before He created the world. The elect are individuals (as you have admitted) selected by God for eternal life.
To answer your question: We both agree that not all will be saved. God would have all men to be saved. There must be a reason that God does not save all, right? Since we both agree that God does the saving, we must also agree, since not all will be saved, that God chose not to save all, right? If God chose not to save all, then this choosing must have been done prior to this plan’s being played out, like before the foundation of the world. If your view also agrees that God did not choose to save all, then how is that any different than my view. I believe that He created some vessels for dishonor, and you believe that He created some who will not be saved. Your belief must also assume that God created some for hell, since He did indeed create some with the knowledge that they would go to hell. Since God knew who would be saved before the foundation of the world, and since none are able to do what God has not planned, how is foreknowledge any different than predestination. God knew who would go to hell, and didn’t do anything about it. There is really no difference in our views, so ultimately, you would explain this verse the same way that I would.
Mike,
I did see your question. Haven’t gotten to it yet.
Keith
Curtis,
You said:
“Also, I’m still waiting for your explanation of 1 Ti 2:3-4.”
What exactly do you need explained? You haven’t said.
If you’re just looking for an exposition, here’s a good one:
2:4 “desires all men to be saved”. The Gr. word for “desires” is not that which normally expresses God’s will of decree (His eternal purpose), but God’s will of desire. There is a distinction between God’s desire and His eternal saving purpose, which must transcend His desires. God does not want men to sin. He hates sin with all His being (Pss. 5:4; 45:7); thus, He hates its consequences–eternal wickedness in hell. God does not want people to ramain wicked forever in eternal remorse and hatred of Himself. Yet, God, for His own glory, and to manifest that glory in wrath, chose to endure “vessels…prepared for destruction” for the supreme fulfillment of His will (Ro. 9:22). In His eternal purpose, He chose only the elect out of the world (Jn. 17:6) and passed over the rest, leaving them to the consequences of their sin, unbelief, and rejection of Christ (cf. Ro. 1:18-32). Ultimately, God’s choices are determined by His sovereign, eternal purpose, not His desires.——-John MacArthur’s commentary from his study bible.
Does that help?
Keith
Curtis,
You said:
“Based on your logic, God should have skipped this whole process and just made man in a glorified body from the beginning. Doing so would have eliminated the need for Christ to come to earth as a man, endure brutal torture and ridicule, and die for the sins of the world. It would also have made it impossible for a man who had no choice in the matter to have to go to hell since the condemned man would never had existed in the first place.”
I’m sorry Curtis, but my “logic” does not necessitate that conclusion. Who am I to tell God what He should or should not have done? He does what He will. His plan in Christ has been from eternity past. Contrary to popular belief in some circles (not accusing you) we are not the center of God’s plan in redemtion, Christ is (Col. 1:15:20). I know that God chose that plan to glorify Himself, and I also know that God elected me to eternal life before time began, and I know that it was my choice to make in believing the Gospel by faith, and I know that, being dead in my trespasses and sins, God had to make me alive and give me that faith. I know all these things because the Bible teaches them all. God is not glorified most by what you think would glorify Him best. He’s got that area covered, too.
Keith
Keith,
I was not looking for a long answer or a teaching. I just wanted to know how you viewed this one issue so I would know what all I needed to include in my response. Are the spirt and soul of man the same thing or something different, in you opinion? A one word or sentence answer will suffice.
Thanks.
Mike,
Here you go…
You have said:
“Briefly, being “born again” and being “saved” are not the same thing. Man’s spirit and his soul are not the same thing. It is our spirit that is born again, when we accept Jesus and our Christian walk is a process towards our soul being saved.”
and…
“We are saved (delivered) from the power and penalty of sin, when we become believers – the Spirit comes to dwell within us, giving life to our spirits; thus, born again. Our soul will be saved at our death or when the Lord returns. This is why I believe that scripture teaches that we must stay the course, be overcomers, etc, to the end; looking forward to the prize, looking forward to the saving of the soul, etc. As the Bible states, he who is not an overcomer will have his name blotted out of the book of life.”
Your question is “Is the soul and spirit of man, the same thing, where the two words can be used interchangeably?”
I have done a little research. The two main Greek words used in the New Testament are pneuma (for spirit) and psyche (for soul)
pneuma – wind, breath, things which are commonly seen as having no material substance; the immaterial part of the inner person that can respond to God
psyche – life, soul; heart, mind; a person; the immaterial (and eternal) part of inner person
So are they different terms? Obviously. Can they be used interchangeably? Obviously. Your argument may be, “but what about 1Thes. 5:23?” (may your spirit (pneuma) and soul(psyche) and body be preserved complete). Doesn’t that teach that they are different? No, the author is using a form of redundancy to emphasize completeness.
How about 1 Cor. 15:45? (So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.) The distinction here is between the first Adam having life, but the second Adam being able to give life. The distinction between soul/spirit is overlooked and obviously interchangeable.
So, to make a long story longer, the words are different, but interchangeable. Both mean the immaterial part of a person. There is no doctrine (teaching) within the Bible that makes a distinction.
Keith
Keith and Daniel
No matter what scriptures I give you, you have managed to explain them all in such a way as to make your understanding of predestination and election the correct one. All of these scriptures are as easy to see and understand as the nose on your face. It’s as if you refuse to give them any credence at all.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree (smile).
V/r
Curtis
Curtis,
You have not responded to the verses that Keith and I have brought. Could you attempt to give an exegetical answer for those verses before you deny our interpretation of the verses you have brought?
You said, “It’s as if you refuse to give them any credence at all.”
We have not ignored those verses or their authority in the slightest. If this is your view of our interpretaion, then perhaps you should question your reason for posting on this discussion. If when our interpretation of verses is different than your’s, you say that we are not giving the verses credence, then is it really the verses or is it your view of them that cannot be wrong? The verses that you have quoted do not deny our view, and we have given explanations why. Please do the same with the verses that we have given.
Keith, thank you for your response, above. Please take the time to read this lengthy study that I did. I hope that it will explain why I believe what I do. I know that it may have some new concepts, but I ask you to read it with an open mind. Thanks.
SOUL vs SPIRIT
BORN AGAIN vs SAVED
By: Mike Foil
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I grew up being told the soul and spirit were pretty much the same thing. I was often hearing the two terms used interchangeably. I remember hearing that the soul is the “mind, emotions and will”. When I tried to find scripture that supported that, I found none. I found some verses where it did seem like you could use either word, but others where it would not make sense to do so. I decided to try to figure out whether they were the same or not.
The two verses, above, convinced me that there is a difference between the soul and the spirit of man. There is no reason (I Thes. 5:23) to list “spirit and soul and body”, if the two were the same thing. The passage in Hebrews tells us that the soul and spirit can be divided. How could that be if they are one and the same? This verse also tells us how to figure out what the difference, search the word of God. Using a Bible and Strong’s Concordance, I began searching the verses that mention spirit and soul in both the OT and NT. I trusted the Holy Spirit to show what each meant and the difference between the two.
In the start of this study, I found it very unclear as to a distinction as the definitions for the Hebrew and Greek words for each were very similar. Both talked about life and breath. As I read the verses with “soul” and “spirit” and other verses where the same Hebrew and Greek words were also used but translated into other English words, a difference began to surface.
As the Bible (I Th. 5:23) states, we are spirit and soul and body. Adam was created thus. God told Adam, “Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ” When Adam did eat of that tree, what died? He did not die physically, he died spiritually. This left Adam with a body and soul, but spiritually dead. (Dead means without life). The Bible also tells us that Adam and Eve were created in the image of God. “Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” We were not physically in the image of God because both male and female were both created in that image. “Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. ” Adam and Eve were created in the image of God, spiritually. The spiritual part of man is what distinguishes man from animal. Animals have a body and soul, but no spirit. This, I determined, was supported by seeing that the Hebrew word for soul was translated into “creature” in Genesis as God talked about the animals.
So, as I read the applicable verses, the difference became more evident. The spirit is the part of man that has the supernatural life. We hear the term used to refer to ghosts. Even the Holy Spirit is also called the Holy Ghost. Angels are referred to as spiritual beings. The soul of man is the part of him that is the life that exists in the physical body. My soul is my life, it is me, I am a soul that lives in a body and I have a spirit. Apart from God, my spirit has no life-is spiritually dead, I have no spirit-life apart from God. When my body dies, my soul does not die, it departs. In other words, it is me, my life (soul-life) that will spend eternity either in heaven or hell. It is not my body, for God tells us that he will give us a glorified body, and the Bible tells us that our bodies will return to the earth. Mankind, since Adam, have been born into sin and separated from God. This is because we are born spiritually dead.
There was no way for mankind to connect with God, being spiritually dead. God cannot have fellowship with darkness. God made a way to have fellowship with us by sending His Son to pay the penalty for our sins, thereby justifying us who believe the gospel. He sent the Spirit of Holiness – His life – to dwell in us and quicken our dead spirits. He gave birth to our spirits by making them alive with His Spirit – thus, the term “born again” and the concept of God living in each of the believers. It is not a rebirth of us physically (which was our first birth), but a giving of life to our spirit. As those who have been born again (our second birth), we now are body, soul and an alive spirit because the Holy Spirit dwells in us. The concept of being born again relates to our spiritual nature.
Verses that support the above conclusion: (I have added the words in parenthesis)
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (Christ) was made a quickening (life giving) spirit.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. NASB
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
As I began seeing the difference between soul and spirit, I also noticed that being born again related to our spirit and being saved related to our soul. This was a surprise to see as I was not looking for it. But, I could not see any reason for them not being different acts as they were each relating to different parts of man.
To start with, “saved” means basically the same thing as”delivered”.
G4982 σώζω sōzō sode’-zo
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, “safe”); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): – heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.
Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries
The word “saved” is used many times in the Bible and in many applications. The question is, what is one being saved or delivered from or to? The following are some verses where “saved” means something other than us being saved to go to heaven:
Saved – Other Meanings:
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luk 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.
Luk 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save (deliver) the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. (This clearly cannot mean personal salvation as it is the result of someone else’s prayer of faith.)
When we talk about personal salvation, we still have the question as to what is the thing the person is being delivered from.
Salvation – Past Tense:
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
2Co 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
These all talk about us being saved, already. What were we delivered from or to when be became born again? Saved to justification of life (Rom. 5:16,18), saved to “abundance of grace and the gift of rigtheousness” (Rom. 5:17), delivered to newness of life (Rom. 6:4), delivered from the old man and to not serving sin (Rom. 6:6), delivered to being dead to sin (Rom. 6:11), saved from sin having dominion over us and saved to being under grace (Rom. 6:14).
Because of being born again, we are free from the power that sin held over us and are now able to be servants of righteousness (Rom. 6:18).
(Rom 7:6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
This was all accompolised by God when we were born again in our spirits. Through the cross, God reconciled us to Him.
Then there are the verses that discuss being saved in future tense.
Salvation – Future Tense:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now (present tense) justified by his blood, we shall be (future tense) saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled (past tense) to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be (future tense) saved by his life.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
If salvation was accompolished when we were born again, then why are all these verses talking about a future salvation? To understand, we must go back to the question, what will we be saved from or to?
Salvation of the Soul:
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Luk 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
And this one really sums it up:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
We were saved from and to several things and positions when we were born again. But, at that time, our soul was not yet saved or delivered. Another way to say it; while we are alive, we have yet to have our soul delivered from this life to its final position with God. The salvation of our soul takes place at our death or the return of Jesus. This is future tense and is different from being born again, past tense.
Understanding that there is a difference between soul and spirit makes it possible to understand that there is also a difference between being born again (spirit) and having our soul saved.
Thanks for reading and God bless!
Daniel,
You said, “If we are able to choose to leave Christ after having been saved, then Christ has failed His job stated in John 6:37-40.”
Using that same logic, then you would have to admit that Christ failed this other job:
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
It says that Jesus came to “save the world”. Is the whole world saved?
No, then is Jesus a failure?
No.
It seems you are taking verses and applying a more literal and extreme meaning than may have been meant.
The verses in John state that this is what the will of God is, that none be lost. This is why we had the earlier discussion about whether or not God’s will is always done as it relates to individuals. Sure, his eternal purpose will be accompolished, that is not the same thing.
Keith,
I posted my explanation about being saved not being the same as being born again. The comments are long and at this time, they are waiting for moderation to be approved.
Thanks for your input here, I really do appreciate each of you.
Mike,
You quoted:
“Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.”
You must also compare this with Jn. 3:17-18:
“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
His first coming was not to judge. That is for the second coming.
This comes down to God’s will (paternal will) versus God’s will (decreed will – His purpose). I believe John 6 is dealing with His decreed will. It is the will of the Father that Jesus lose none, and Jesus says He will DO it. It is stated as an action that He will perform, not merely a desire that He has.
V/r,
Keith
Mike,
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Here, Jesus is saying that His purpose for coming to the world was to save, not to judge. The emphasis is not on “the whole world” but on the purpose. He did indeed come to save.
Daniel ,
I answered your question in my last post. We differ on the definition of election and the Calvinistic doctrine of once saved always saved.
Keith,
My point in quoting John 12:47, did not have anything to do with the judging. Daniel keeps asking others, if we believe that Jesus failed his job, when we say that some can fall away. He uses John 6:37-40 to show us what the job was. My point was, if that means Jesus failed his job in John 6, based on what we believe; then based on what Daniel believes, Jesus failed his job in John 12:47. This verse does not say that he is referring to his second coming, it uses the word “came”, past tense, for the present time he was there.
You don’t need to explain to me what this verse actually means, I already know that, I am just using it as an example to show Daniel that the “failing his job” argument can be turned against his reasoning. Just because it was God’s will that something be done, does not meant that Jesus failed his job if that did not happen. Remember, we all agreed that man has a free will!
My explanation about soul vs spirit and born again vs saved, just got posted. It was written last evening. You can’t miss it, it looks like a book…
I am looking forward to your feedback.
Thanks.
Mike,
I do not agree that man has a “free” will. I agree that man does have a will to make certain decisions. However, I do not believe that a dead man can make himself live again. If we are dead in our trespasses and sins, if there are none that seek after God, then we cannot choose God apart from His enabling. That is not a completely “free” will. We also know that God hardens hearts (confirming and setting an already obstinate heart). This does not leave one with complete “free” will. He also turns hearts towards himself. The Bible does address the will of man, but no where does it address man as having “free” will.
Mike,
The idea that we are saved, are being saved, and will be saved is the same thing as my idea of salvation, sanctification, and glorification (just different terms). I agree that the soul and spirit are different, but I also insist that they are inseperable. One cannot have salvation without the other.
You said, “My point was, if that means Jesus failed his job in John 6, based on what we believe; then based on what Daniel believes, Jesus failed his job in John 12:47.”
This is not a necessary conclusion. If Christ came for the sole purpose of losing none (as is clearly stated), then for Him to lose even one would be a failure of this purpose. This verse is not just a matter of man not always doing God’s will, it is a matter of what CHRIST came to do! Whether or not Christ will do what He said He would is not up to man. This is a necessary conclusion from John 6. In John 12:47, Christ says that He came not to judge but to save. Again, the emphasis is NOT on “the whole world” the emphasis is on the fact that He did not come to judge. This verse says that He came to save, and He DID save. John 6 says that He came to lose none, and He WILL NOT LOSE ANY!
Keith,
I was just kidding when I said that we all agree that man has a free will…
Daniel,
First of all, thanks for taking the time to read all of that. You said,
“I agree that the soul and spirit are different, but I also insist that they are inseperable. One cannot have salvation without the other.”
I am not sure just what you mean by “inseperable”. Since both are a part of man, neither one can be removed, leaving only the other two parts. So, yes, they are inseperable. Saying that “one cannot have salvation without the other”, I assume means that the soul cannot be saved without the spirit being born again. If this is what you menat, I agree completely. But the opposite does not hold true. One can be born again, have the initial deliverance (those items included in the Saved-Past Tense) and not reach the goal of having the soul saved (the Saved-Futue Tense). Once saved-always saved, if that is referring to the soul, is of course correct because the soul does not get saved (delivered) until we die. But, it does not hold true if we are referring to the deliverence we receive, when we are born again, from the power of sin. This is why there are so many verses warning and instructing us to be overcomers, to run the race, to work out our salvation; and those talking about receiving the prize-the salvation of our souls. We cannot get our soul saved, which is the ultimate goal, without being born again. This is because we, without the life of God living in us, cannot achieve this to even a small degree. But, by yielding to the leading of the HS, living in us, God has given us all that is needed to be able to follow and obey, thru His strength, and end up with our soul going to heaven.
Without going into such a long posting about the soul/spirit and salvation/born again, it has been difficult for me to explain all that I have meant in some of my postings, above; because most would not understand what I meant by what I said. Once you understand that these things are not the same as each other, it makes the understanding of many of these verses much more clear.
God gave us His Spirit to equip us to be able to get our soul saved. Some, however, who have tasted, been partakers, etc; end up falling away before reaching the goal.
Mike,
Your view of the process of salvation is this: saved (past) saved (present) and saved (future). My view is the same with different wording: saved (born again, justified, adopted) sanctified (being made more like Christ) and glorified. This process is also described in Rom 8:29-30 “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
Does this verse mean that only some or most of those who are called and justified will be glorified? No, it says that those who are justified, they will also be glorified.
You said, “God gave us His Spirit to equip us to be able to get our soul saved.”
He did not give us His Spirit just to equip us to be able to get our soul saved, He gave us His Spirit to GUARUNTEE it (Eph. 1:12-14, 4:30).
Daniel
We have not ignored those verses or their authority in the slightest. (IMHO, I think you have.)
If this is your view of our interpretaion, then perhaps you should question your reason for posting on this discussion. (I’m not sure what you are saying. Every discussion/debate has to end at some point. IMO, this one has reached its end. There’s not one scripture I can give you or you can give me that will change each other’s minds.)
If when our interpretation of verses is different than your’s, you say that we are not giving the verses credence, then is it really the verses or is it your view of them that cannot be wrong? (Scriptures validate themselves. I have given you more than enough scriptures to show you why I believe what I believe. My mother is a JW who doesn’t believe that Jesus was/is God and I have shown her multiple scriptures using her own bible to prove that He is God.)
The verses that you have quoted do not deny our view, and we have given explanations why. (I believe those scriptures do deny your view.)
Please do the same with the verses that we have given. (As soon as I get the opportunity, I will look at the other scriptures you have quoted and give you my understanding of them. I have commented on some, but I will take a close look at all or most. I’m a full-time student, so please be patient with me. I’ll probably comment on each in different posts).
V/r
Curtis
Curtis,
Could you show me which verses I have ignored?
My goal is to base my view on all of scripture, not leaving any verses out. Therefore, if you think that a verse denies my view, and I give you an exegetical answer why it does not, it is not the verse that I am in disagreement with, it is your view.
I know you have given me many verses, but, as I have shown, those verses do not contradict my view. You, however, have not yet given an answer for the verses I have shared.
When Romans 9 says that salvation is not of him who wills nor of him who runs but of God who shows mercy, what does it mean if not just that?
When John says that Christ (who never fails) came for the express purpose of losing none, what does it mean if not that Christ will lose none?
I understand if you do not have a lot of time to answer. I am in no hurry.
Mike F
Curtis, since I can see what I wrote and has not been approved by the moderator, I will copy it here and see if this posts.
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Mike F
I am just now reading this e-mail. What you said is exactly what I see as well. This is why I said in a post to Daniel yesterday that we just have to agree to disagree…and basically move on. The thrill is not in winning a debate. The thrill is in the spiritual understanding of God’s priceless and flawless word. The truth makes us free and His word is truth.
Again, you stated it very well.
Curtis
Mike F.
I just re-read your 19 Jan 2008 at 1:22am post. What an outstanding post! It was line upon line and precept upon precept.
Curtis
Mike F.
My explanation about soul vs spirit and born again vs saved, just got posted. It was written last evening. You can’t miss it, it looks like a book…
I am looking forward to your feedback.
Thanks.
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Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Line by line; precept upon precept. Very well articulated and I understood.
Curtis
Curtis,
Thanks for taking the time to read all of that. Also, thanks for the encouraging words.
Mike
Mike,
Below are some of the verses that you referred to that you said are a past tense of the verb to save. I would argue that the first two are not, and possibley not the third. Various verses (including the first two below) refer to a present “being saved” that you did not really discuss. I read everything you wrote, but it still seems really “new” to me, and I know there is NOTHING new under the sun. I’ll need to think over this more after reading those verses in context. That was a bunch to chew on. Of concern, you (hopefully unwittingly) distorted 1Cor. 1:18 (see below).
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. (“being saved”, not “saved”, in all reputable Bible versions)
2Co 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: (“being saved” in all but KJV)
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.(“being saved” in YLT)
Keith
Mike,
You said:
“This is because we are born spiritually dead.
There was no way for mankind to connect with God, being spiritually dead.”
With that being said, how can man “choose” God if he is spiritually dead and unable to connect with God? Doesn’t that mean that the work of making a man born again has to be completely wrought by the Living God?
Keith
Mike,
Food for thought while I dig into the spirit/soul thing more:
John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son HAS eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
If you have eternal life when you believe in the Son of God, and then you lose it if you lose your faith, does that mean that you had “temporal” eternal life?
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but HAS passed out of death into life.”
Same question…you hear Christ’s word, believe Him who sent Christ…and get “temporary” eternal life? And the second part says that after you hear the Gospel and believe you pass out of death and into life. Is that with the possibility of death again?
John 6:47 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes HAS eternal life.”
Same question.
John 6:54 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood HAS eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
So here is says you have eternal life, THEN Christ will raise you up on the last day. You possess it and then Christ will raise you up. Does he mean something other than the salvation of your soul?
John 10:28 “and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.”
The only time that anyone would even attempt to “snatch them out of” His hand is in this present heaven and earth, so this eternal life must be able to be obtained on this side of the judgement. So again, does he mean something other than eternal?
Acts 13:48 “When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”
That’s a really good one! So they had actually been APPOINTED to eternal life. So if they lose their faith are they dis-APPOINTED (pun intended ), losing their “temporal” eternal life?
Seriously, though, I’ll stop all that for now (trust me, there’s more). But, Mike, while I’m digging through your soul/spirit study more, please dig through the issue of “eternal life” in this present age. Can you have eternal life now? And can you then lose it?
Keith
Keith,
First of all, I am glad you took the time to read it.
In response, you wrote, “Of concern, you (hopefully unwittingly) distorted 1Cor. 1:18.”
I imagine that you consider the KJV and ASV “reputable” Bible versions. I believe that all of the verses, including I Cor. 1:18, except one, were quoted from the KJV. The second verse of concern to you, II Cor. 2:15, is also quoted from KJV and supported by ASV. Though I also have high respect for NASB and Young’s, many scholars also believe the ASV to be one of the most accurate translations. The third verse of concern to you, I Cor. 15:2 uses past tense in all of the following versions: ALT, ASV, KJV, NASB, and RV.
Keith, I am not trying to deceive you or trick you. I used KJV because it is widely accepted. I would assume that you use NASB, which is very good. But, I noticed that once you used that version, or another one that is similar to it, to dispute the first one, you switched to YLT for the third verse because your other one did not agree with you. You accused me of distorting a verse and implied that you thought I may have done it on purpose.
I believe that we are saved (delivered), being saved and are to be saved from a variety of different things. I listed nine verses that KJV has “saved” in past tense. Even if the two you found should be, more accurately, in present tense; what is the point? There are the other verses that use past tense and this is not the portion of what I wrote that you said you disagreed with, prior to me writing it. You already said that we “were saved”-past tense.
In your post that prompted me to write about this subject, you said the following about my statement that being saved and being born again are not the same thing:
“There is a past moment of salvation for all believers, a present being saved (1Cor 1:18), and a future salvation to be revealed. I believe there is a great deal to be discussed on each of those, but the point is that the moment we became born from above we were saved. Scripture is very clear on that.”
Based on your own writing, “There is a past moment of salvation…a present being saved…and a future salvation…” Since being born again is something that happens at a point in time, how can you say that it is the same thing as salvation, which has stages?
I respect a man who knows what he believes, why he believes it and is willing and able to defend his belief. That is how I see you and Daniel – I respect both of you. But, as I have expressed before, there have been times in the past where things I firmly believed had to be adjusted because I saw in scripture where the Bible taught otherwise. Someone near and dear to my heart told me about this article on this website, around Christmas. He knew I would be interested because we had recently had a discussion on the same verses in Hebrews (he is a Calvinist). Because I have high respect for him and what he has learned, I approached this with the possibility that I may have to make another adjustment or two in my belief. It may not have sounded like it, by my writing, but I was looking to see if I would be convinced otherwise by the dialogue. I came with the intention of defending my belief but also having an open mind to see if I was wrong. I would only hope that others writing here would approach it in the same way – defend your belief but do it with an open mind because, just MAYBE, you may have something that is not just right. Now, after saying all of that, I think I am picking up from you that same attitude in your thinking about my post. It sounded like you were willing to reconsider your initial stand against what I suggested and consider it in light of the verses that back it up. That is all I am asking – thanks.
Remember the two questions we are discussing right now, are the soul and spirit different and is being born again and having the soul saved the same thing?
If when we are saved (and I mean at conversion), we only have the possibility of keeping that salvation, then what is it that keeps us saved? Is it our works or is it God? It cannot be both.
Daneil ,
It is both. The works would be works of faith mentioned in James 2. A man is not justified by faith alone. ” You see that a person is justitfied by what he does and not by faith alone. ” James 2 : 24 . When a Christian lives in harmony with the word of God , given from Him , then a Christian will not fall. It is all part of living in obedience . Not works of the law and not flawless obedience but being faithful. And when there is sin , then confession , repentance and walking in the light.God has provided everything we need to live secure. But He also gives each person the free will to choose. Some choose and stay faithful and are saved. Others choose to walk away from it all and forfeit their salvation because of foolish choices and long extended habits of sinful iving without any remorse , repentance or confession of sin . They trample the Son of God underfoot.
Ray, well said.
Daniel, your statement assumes that we DO ONLY have the possibility of keeping salvation. As I stated above, the word saved, just means delivered. “Saved” is not some super-spiritual term. When we read “saved” we need to ask the question, what is this verse telling us we are delivered from or to? Usually, when we say “saved” we are talking about the salvation of the soul. That happens at our death. That is when our soul is delivered from this present life to eternity with God. The saved (past tense) that took place when we were born again is us being delivered from the power of sin over us. We were set free to serve God and given the HS to empower us to do so. We can resist the Spirit and be disobedient or submit and be obedient. It is not our strength, it is God’s working in us, but it is our choice.
Mike,
I messed up on 1 Cor 1:18. I just looked it up again in the KJV and you were right. I could have swore it said “being saved” when I looked it up yesterday. Please forgive me for that. I got sidetracked on that little rabbit trail and it turned into me trying to pick at that one part instead of sticking to the point. I’m sorry.
I think I have the problem of treating this like a debate that I am trying to win, instead of using this as an opportunity to seek the Lord and your good. I’ve always been a really competitive person and my flesh gets the best of me sometimes. I will try to devote more prayer to this issues instead of just making it an academic pursuit.
I still haven’t had a chance to really get into your post as a whole. I’ll get back to you.
Your brother in Christ,
Keith
Keith,
I also, sort of enjoy the challenge of the debate. It is easy to be defensive of my view and look at how to find fault in other’s views. I have learned a lot on this blog and it has been good for me to be questioned and have to be able to back up what I write.
Thanks for being open to a new idea and considering it. I rarely talk to people about what I posted above as I know the initial response will be negative and most will not listen long enough or with an open mind in order to actually hear what I am saying or honestly look at the verses to see the support.
Ray,
James is absolutely NOT saying that works are what get us or keep us saved, he is saying that works are the result of the Holy Spirit’s work of sanctification. As Spurgeon said, “if keeping my salvation were up to me, then I would have lost it long ago, and so would everyone else.”
You and Mike have both admitted that the Holy Spirit helps us stay saved. If the Holy Spirit is helping us, then how weak must He be if we still fall away? If saving faith can be lost, then was it saving faith? Christ will not fail what He came to do, so He will not lose any.
Ray and Mike,
If the Holy Spirit is our guaruntee that we will receive our inheritance, then if we don’t receive it, the guaruntee was no good.
Daniel,
Some have posted here that the HS is as an Earnest Deposit that guarantees the outcome. You seem to like relating a Bible situation to a story (ie: kid in street), so I will do the same.
In real estate, a buyer puts up an earnest deposit that states he will keep his word and follow through with the transaction. This deposit is not a guarantee that the deal will close, as he does not have control over the seller changing his mind. The earnest deposit is a one-way promise.
Spiritually, the earnest of the HS is a promise of God, made to man. Man can reject his side of the transaction. If that happens, it does not diminish God, the HS or His promise. It does not mean God, Jesus or the HS “failed”. It means that man messed up real bad.
Mike,
Your story is not quite acurate. I will attempt to give another story.
A man purchases a slave and puts on him a stamp to show to whom this slave belongs. Then this man goes away for a while leaving a promise with this slave that he will return and give the slave an inheritance.
We are sealed (stamped) by the Holy Spirit. The redemption of the purchased posession is not contingent on the slave, but on the redeemer.
Mike,
In your story, the deal has already closed when we accepted Christ.
Daniel ,
You know I have said if a person falls away it is the fault of the person. I have already asked you , when a Christian sins if the Holy Spirit fails us but you never answered. Actually our basic big difference is not in what God does or does not do for us. Is is if each person is given free will and how you define election. The Calvinistic approach leaves us without any real decision making. Those who are saved are arbitrarily saved. The only conclusion to the five points of Calvinism. The non- elect in Calvinistic theology are lost and cannot do anything about being saved. We are all robots and puppets on a string. It may not be what you think but every time I engage in a study Calvinistic thinking this is the way it comes across to me. We will have to disagree. I guess since I strongly believe in personal free choice I must be one of the non-elect in your perspective. But I have long accepted that Jesus is the Savior . He died for my sins as well as the sins of the whole world. I believed , confessed and was baptized for the forgiveness of my sins. A free choice. And I like others who have made a similar choice are the elect , the predestined. Called by the gospel. My faith came by hearing the word . Not an arbitrary choice.
Ray,
You said, “I guess since I strongly believe in personal free choice I must be one of the non-elect in your perspective.”
Not at all. I strongly believe that there are godly men on both sides of this issue, who seek to please God with their lives and become more like Christ every day.
You said, “I have already asked you , when a Christian sins if the Holy Spirit fails us but you never answered.”
No, the Holy Spirit does not fail if we sin, the Holy Spirit fails if we fall away completely. In the Bible, the Holy Spirit is not presented as a means to perfection in this life, but the next. The Holy Spirit is the means of sanctification, which is the PROCESS of becoming like Christ. If we sin, this shows that our ultimate goal (Christ-likeness) has not yet been achived.
You said, “Actually our basic big difference is not in what God does or does not do for us. Is is if each person is given free will and how you define election.”
Actually our difference is indeed in what God does or does not do for us. I believe that Christ keeps us saved through the Holy Spirit’s working in us both to will and do of His good pleasure. And you believe that Christ does not keep us saved, we keep ourselves saved. This is very much an issue of what God does or does not do. The BIBLE defines election as:
“the act of picking out, choosing; of the act of God’s free will by which before the foundation of the world he decreed his blessings to certain persons; the decree made from choice by which he determined to bless certain persons through Christ by grace alone; a thing or person chosen; of persons: God’s elect”
We are not the elect if we are saved, we are saved if we are the elect (picked out by God).
You said, “The Calvinistic approach leaves us without any real decision making. Those who are saved are arbitrarily saved. The only conclusion to the five points of Calvinism. The non- elect in Calvinistic theology are lost and cannot do anything about being saved. We are all robots and puppets on a string.”
We are not robots at all. We do indeed make genuine decisions that effect our future as well as others’. At this moment I am CHOOSING to respond to you. However, to say that I can choose to do good apart from God’s working??? The choice is from our perspective. I may choose in my mind to accept Christ, but ultimately it is God that directs my decisions (Pr. 16:9). We indeed choose to follow Christ, but it is God that works in us, causing us to will (desire) and do (choose) His good pleasure (Phil 2:13).
You said, “And I like others who have made a similar choice are the elect , the predestined.”
What do you think it means to be predestined?
You said, “Called by the gospel. My faith came by hearing the word .”
You have faith because God has chosen the hearing of the word as the means of giving you that faith.
You said, “Not an arbitrary choice.”
I believe I have said something about the choice being “arbitrary”.
Daniel,
You had just said that, “If the Holy Spirit is our guaruntee that we will receive our inheritance, then if we don’t receive it, the guaruntee was no good.” It sounded like you were referring to the verse that tells us the HS has been given to us as an earnest, II Cor. 1:22. Strong’s has this to say about earnest:
G728 ἀῤῥαβών arrhabōn ar-hrab-ohn’
Of Hebrew origin [H6162]; a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest: – earnest.
So, it is a one-way promise, just as I stated above. God is giving us, as it were, a security deposit that backs up His ability to deliver the rest of the promise. As I said, a pledge or security deposit is binding on the person who gives it.
In response to what you just wrote to Ray, the Holy Spirit does not fail if someone falls away. I know that is what you believe, but the only way the Holy Spirit would fail is if He did not fulfill His promise to be our guide, our comforter, provide us with the strength to do what is right, etc. If we fail, it is not His fault, it is our fault. He is there and willing and able to do His part, we just have to yield to His leading. If He stopped leading and left us on our own, to do it in our strength, then He would not have done what was promised. What does it mean to quench the Holy Spirit?
You said, “The Holy Spirit is the means of sanctification, which is the PROCESS of becoming like Christ. If we sin, this shows that our ultimate goal (Christ-likeness) has not yet been achived.”
Do you believe that we will ever, in this life, be just like Christ, without any sin? If not, then according to what you are saying, the Holy Spirit failed to accompolish his job. Christ-likeness is perfection in this life. You just said that the HS is not a means to perfection in this life, but then tell us that it is his job to get us like Christ. You throw out phrases like: …then are you saying that God failed, Jesus failed, the Holy Spirit failed… This is all based on your denial that man has any responsibility for working out his own salvation. Don’t get me wrong, I do believe that the Holy Spirit is working within us to make us more like Christ-holy, but until we get rid of the old nature that is at war with us, we will not quite get there. My point is, that just because we do not quite get there, it does not mean the Holy Spirit has failed. If you agree, then how about stop jumping to that conclusion about the things we say, when it is clear that is not what we mean.
You then quoted what you said was how the BIBLE defines election. I repeat, you said the BIBLE has this quoted defination. I am sorry, but what you had in quotations is not a part of the BIBLE.
Daniel, us submitting to the Holy Spirit’s leading is not us keeping ourselves saved.
Where is the line drawn as to where you have an ability or a will and can choose to do things, like respond to us, and to where you cannot choose to do things, like good? What is submitting to the leading of the Holy Spirit, if it is not choosing to follow him-do good? If we have a choice to do good or sin, then we have a choice!!! You said, “to say that I can choose to do good apart from God’s working???” I assume you mean that you cannot choose to do good, submit to the Holy Spirit, without God’s help. But, you do have God’s help, the Holy Spirit is in you, giving you that help. But it does not mean that you will submit to that help. If you do not, the Spirit did not fail, he was there and able, you failed.
Mike,
With the definition of “earnest” that you have given, (a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest) if God has promised, by giving us the Holy Spirit, that He will pay the rest, will He not pay it?
You said, “Do you believe that we will ever, in this life, be just like Christ, without any sin?”
NO.
You said, “If not, then according to what you are saying, the Holy Spirit failed to accompolish his job. Christ-likeness is perfection in this life.”
Christ-likeness is NOT perfection in this life. We will achieve Christ-likeness in heaven. The work that was begun in us at conversion will be completed at the day of Christ; not before, but it will most certainly be completed.
You said, “This is all based on your denial that man has any responsibility for working out his own salvation.”
Again, I am absolutely NOT saying that man does nothing. It is just that what man does is a response, not a cause.
You said, “I do believe that the Holy Spirit is working within us to make us more like Christ-holy, but until we get rid of the old nature that is at war with us, we will not quite get there.”
I agree 100%. We will not get there in this life, but we will most certainly get there.
You said, “My point is, that just because we do not quite get there, it does not mean the Holy Spirit has failed.”
I am not quite sure what your meaning is here. Do you mean to say that “just because we do not quite get there in this life” or “just because we do not quite get there and fall short”
You said, “If you agree, then how about stop jumping to that conclusion about the things we say, when it is clear that is not what we mean.”
It may not be what you mean, but it is a necessary conclusion. The Holy Spirit’s job is not to make us Christ-like in this life, so if (when) this does not happen, it does not mean that the Holy Spirit failed, since this was not His job. However, Christ’s job IS to lose none, so if He loses even one, He did fail His job. The Holy Spirit’s job IS to continue the work begun in us and to complete it at the day of Christ, so if He stops working in us (for any reason), He did fail His job.
You said, “You then quoted what you said was how the BIBLE defines election. I repeat, you said the BIBLE has this quoted defination. I am sorry, but what you had in quotations is not a part of the BIBLE.”
I apologize, this is the Greek definition.
You said, “Daniel, us submitting to the Holy Spirit’s leading is not us keeping ourselves saved.”
I realize that, it is God working in us both to desire and choose His good pleasure (whatever He desires).
You said, “I assume you mean that you cannot choose to do good, submit to the Holy Spirit, without God’s help. But, you do have God’s help, the Holy Spirit is in you, giving you that help.”
Exactly! So is it the Holy Spirit’s work, or my decision? Could I make such a decision without that help? No. So it is God not I that chooses.
I realize what you are saying and why you are saying it. From our perspective, we have a “free” will; but from God’s perspective, we are nothing but vessels fitted for whatever He decides. I understand your view, but do you see how this works?
To ALL -
The Doctrine of Details:
Over the last couple weeks I have been thinking about our extensive discussion on this article. (I am not sure, as I have not checked, but it would not surprise me if this was not the longest discussion on this blog.) It seems that we have approached this subject from every conceivable angle, using just about every verse that could possibly relate. We have each made our points, restated them, reworded them, backed them with different scripture and tried to prove our doctrine. Now, 300+ comments later, it does not seem like anyone has changed what they believe. But, speaking for myself, I do feel like this has been good for me. I have learned from each of you and been challenged to search the scripture. I know more than when I started and that is good.
As I stepped back and looked at what each of us were saying about some issues, one thing seemed to surface. In some of the issues, though we have different beliefs as to how it happened or who was responsible for it happening, when it was over, the net result was not very different. For instance –
Some believe that God predestined those who would become “true” believers, that He placed the Holy Spirit in them and drew them unto Him unto conversion. That He then takes each of those and leads them all the way to glorification, with no loses along the way. They believe that any professing believer that does not make it through sanctification, to glorification, is exposed as never to have been a true believer because true believers cannot fall away. The net result is that believers that follow God and are led by the Spirit end up glorified and spending eternity with God.
Others believe that God foreknew who would choose to respond to the calling and those He predestined. As those people do respond, they are born again and begin their walk with God with the Holy Spirit leading them. They believe that we are to be overcomers, endure to the end, not be deceived to the point of falling away and this we can do as we submit to the Spirit. They believe that along this path, man still maintains a will that leaves him able to reject God, just as he was able to accept God. Those that endure to the end will be saved. The net result is that believers that follow God and are led by the Spirit end up glorified and spending eternity with God.
Whether we are believers or true believers, when we follow after God, we will see each other in Heaven. Sometimes our doctrines of details may keep us from seeing the big picture and realizing we are all brothers who love God and expect to see Jesus.
Forgive me if I misstated your belief in some way, but I tried to sum it up in a brief paragraph, as best I understand. Thanks guys. I am not signing off and will continue to check back here and respond, but it does seem like we have fairly well covered this issue.
Mike F
Mike F ,
Well said. I agree. It has been a good and thoughtful discussion.
Mike,
If you will look carefully at the two view you described, both are scriptural views. I have shown many times how I believe they work together in such a way as to not deminish the other, but I am not sure that you understood what I was saying. The first one you described was completely God’s view, as it did not say anything about man’s choices. The second was completely man’s view, as all it talked about was man’s choices. Both are in scripture, and I believe that one is God’s view and one is man’s view. Do you understand the “perspectives” that I have brought up many times?
I for one have learned much through this discussion about what I believe and why I believe it. I believe that people on both sides can be just as good of Christians. I have enjoyed this discussion.
Thanks, guys, see you elsewhere!
God Bless!
Daniel Chaney
Ps 5:4 – For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
(I don’t see what this scripture has to do with election or predestination.)
Ps 45:7 – Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
(This scripture pertains to Christ.)
Jo 17:6 – I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
(This scripture is Jesus praying to the Father about making himself known to the 11 disciples/apostles. The Father gave them to Jesus and Jesus said they kept His word. This is true of every “BELIEVER.” We know that no man comes to God, except he be drawn by God. Jesus, in Jo 6:44 says, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” The scriptures clearly reveal that God attempts to draw all men to Christ, not just the ones that come to Christ.)
Ro 8:29-30 – For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
(Paul is referring to all who have answered God’s call to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. God is God. He knows the end from the start. I do not see how anyone can turn these scriptures into God wants some saved, so He saves them, and they go to heaven. God does not want to save the rest, so He doesn’t, and He sends them to hell. God wants all men saved…period. Most won’t be saved because they refuse to believe on the one the Father has sent to them–His Son Jesus Christ…period.)
Ro 1:18-32 – Too long to type.
(Not one these verses remotely hints at God choosing some people for salvation and rejecting the rest before the foundation of the world. Not one single verse says it or implies it.)
Col 1:15-20 – [15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
[19] For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
[20] And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(Again, not one of these verses implies that God has chosen some while rejecting the rest.)
Eph 1:12-14 – [12] That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[14] Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
(There are too many scriptures that oppose “your interpretation” of these verses. I have given you more than enough to show why I don’t agree with your interpretation. The Bible validates itself line by line, precept upon precept. Many other scriptures invalidate your interpretation of Eph 1:12-14.)
Eph 4:30 – And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
(Please see response directly above.)
Daniel, this discussion has run it course for me. We have to agree to disagree. I have meditated on your interpretation of the elect, predestination, etc., and asked God for insight on your interpretation. I have sincerely given it thought. Honestly, this interpretation of salvation does not bear witness in me. If it is the truth, I know the Father will reveal it to me to be so. As it stands right now, I believe it’s God’s will and purpose to present the gospel to every man for the purpose of saving his or her soul. He takes no pleasure in the death of one sinner. He desires every man to repent and be saved. Christ shed His blood for the remission of the sins of every soul in the whole world. But because men loved sin more than righteousness, they would not accept the Father’s offer of peace with Him through Christ; thereby, missing out on eternal life and receiving the “JUST” recompense of their rejecting of the Father and His Son.
It has been a pleasure discussing this topic. May God continue to bless each and every one of you. There’s no doubt in my mind that each of you is my brother in Christ and that you have my best interest in mind…as I have yours.
V/r
Curtis
Curtis,
Giving me verses that you say don’t support my view(although there could be some argument about that), will never do anything to invalidate my view.
You said, “I believe it’s God’s will and purpose to present the gospel to every man for the purpose of saving his or her soul. He takes no pleasure in the death of one sinner. He desires every man to repent and be saved.”
I agree, but there is something that God wants even more than He wants to save everyone, and you would have to agree with this, so that is not a valid argument against my view since it goes against yours as well. If God wants all to be saved, then in order for all NOT to be saved, God would have to choose not to save all, right?
“Christ shed His blood for the remission of the sins of every soul in the whole world.”
I have already given my thoughts on this.
As far as Eph. 1:12-14, I have not even interpreted these verses. Vs. 14 “Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” Do you know what I take that to mean? I take it to mean that the Holy Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession. What is a purchased possession? It does not take an interpretation to know that a purchased possession is something that has been bought and is now owned by the purchaser. It does not take an interpretation to know that an earnest is a guaruntee. Putting those DEFINITIONS (not interpretations) together, I come up with this: God owns us becuase He has bought us. The Holy Spirit is a guaruntee that we will receive our inheritance. This is not an interpretation, this is plain reading.
Your brother in Christ,
Daniel Chaney
Boy, I am struggling. Now I am thinking that I may be one of those who came to the full knowledge and yet didn’t fully commit. I have fallen back into gross sin again and am afraid HE won’t grant me the repetance that saves.I am scared