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	<title>Comments on: The Flaws of a Fad-Driven Church</title>
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	<description>A Ministry of Shepherds' Fellowship</description>
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		<title>By: Jean McDowell</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/comment-page-1/#comment-127232</link>
		<dc:creator>Jean McDowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Apr 2008 05:54:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Too, I have gained tremendous insight from Grace to You.  I have listened to John MacArthur for thirty years. He has a passion for the scripture and I have learned to have that same desire, to learn, and use his teachings to help me lead a better life. I have passed his tapes on to friends and young women I mentor, they in turn, play them for their spouse&#039;s and children, small groups. I recently studied Johm&#039;s book,on the Apostles, and it has made the Gospels come alive. Hybels tought bad doctrine, made a feeble repent, and is now on the path to teaching contemplative prayer and the Emergiing Church. He should rethink his next move. I have been a Christian for 76 years and will be ninety years old this coming August. I currently live in a retirement community, and will start a Bible study this month. I will be ninety years old in August and still have that love for reading the scripture everyday. It is the only way to live your life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Too, I have gained tremendous insight from Grace to You.  I have listened to John MacArthur for thirty years. He has a passion for the scripture and I have learned to have that same desire, to learn, and use his teachings to help me lead a better life. I have passed his tapes on to friends and young women I mentor, they in turn, play them for their spouse&#8217;s and children, small groups. I recently studied Johm&#8217;s book,on the Apostles, and it has made the Gospels come alive. Hybels tought bad doctrine, made a feeble repent, and is now on the path to teaching contemplative prayer and the Emergiing Church. He should rethink his next move. I have been a Christian for 76 years and will be ninety years old this coming August. I currently live in a retirement community, and will start a Bible study this month. I will be ninety years old in August and still have that love for reading the scripture everyday. It is the only way to live your life.</p>
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		<title>By: Johnny T. Helms</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/comment-page-1/#comment-78542</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnny T. Helms</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:41:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/#comment-78542</guid>
		<description>Wow, talk about openin&#039; a can &#039;o worms. Anyway, the hucksters on TBN and now occupying so many church pulpits fit the description given by Peter in his second letter; they have indeed and continue to make merchandise of their followers&#039; souls (2:1-3). They do view the church-going public as the market place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, talk about openin&#8217; a can &#8216;o worms. Anyway, the hucksters on TBN and now occupying so many church pulpits fit the description given by Peter in his second letter; they have indeed and continue to make merchandise of their followers&#8217; souls (2:1-3). They do view the church-going public as the market place.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/comment-page-1/#comment-75867</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:40:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/#comment-75867</guid>
		<description>Keith,
In the context of this blog, a fad is...

Anything that detracts from the primacy of the bible.  

Anything that would would be seen as making up for supposed limitations of biblical teaching.  

Anything that would be used to replace the efforts of the Holy Spirit in drawing people to Christ. 

Anything that would attempt to fill the God-void in ones life with pop-psychology and worldly wisdom.

So much has been written in supporting these new ways (fads) of reaching our post-modern culture.  I am sure there were fads that were used in the past for this purpose that have long since faded away.  The only certain thing that is of God is His Word which will outlast any fad.  

His Word stands alone.

Regards,
Tim</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keith,<br />
In the context of this blog, a fad is&#8230;</p>
<p>Anything that detracts from the primacy of the bible.  </p>
<p>Anything that would would be seen as making up for supposed limitations of biblical teaching.  </p>
<p>Anything that would be used to replace the efforts of the Holy Spirit in drawing people to Christ. </p>
<p>Anything that would attempt to fill the God-void in ones life with pop-psychology and worldly wisdom.</p>
<p>So much has been written in supporting these new ways (fads) of reaching our post-modern culture.  I am sure there were fads that were used in the past for this purpose that have long since faded away.  The only certain thing that is of God is His Word which will outlast any fad.  </p>
<p>His Word stands alone.</p>
<p>Regards,<br />
Tim</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/comment-page-1/#comment-75781</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Nov 2007 04:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/#comment-75781</guid>
		<description>Phil,
   Good points about the dangers of the fad-driven church. Yet, we must remember that we will be worshipping with these brothers in glory one day and should come alongside and support and love them in whatever way possible. We should rather see the reformation of these churches than their &quot;death.&quot; I used to be so critical of these churches until the Lord convicted me of loving all believers regardless of their theological or ecclestical positions. This does not mean we don&#039;t stand for the truth, but must do so in love.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil,<br />
   Good points about the dangers of the fad-driven church. Yet, we must remember that we will be worshipping with these brothers in glory one day and should come alongside and support and love them in whatever way possible. We should rather see the reformation of these churches than their &#8220;death.&#8221; I used to be so critical of these churches until the Lord convicted me of loving all believers regardless of their theological or ecclestical positions. This does not mean we don&#8217;t stand for the truth, but must do so in love.</p>
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		<title>By: Phillip Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/comment-page-1/#comment-74974</link>
		<dc:creator>Phillip Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Nov 2007 19:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/#comment-74974</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Keith:&lt;/strong&gt; &lt;em&gt;&quot;Calvin says babies go to hell too.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

Really? Care to quote him to that effect?

In point of fact, Calvin did not believe that.

However, this thread isn&#039;t about Calvin&#039;s views on baptism, government, infant salvation, or whatever. See &lt;a rel=&quot;nofollow&quot; href=&quot;http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/20/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-1/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the link I already posted,&lt;/a&gt; where I explained exactly what I mean when I accept the label &quot;Calvinist.&quot;

Future comments need to be about the actual material in the above post, or I will ask moderators to delete them.

Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Keith:</strong> <em>&#8220;Calvin says babies go to hell too.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>Really? Care to quote him to that effect?</p>
<p>In point of fact, Calvin did not believe that.</p>
<p>However, this thread isn&#8217;t about Calvin&#8217;s views on baptism, government, infant salvation, or whatever. See <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/20/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-1/" rel="nofollow">the link I already posted,</a> where I explained exactly what I mean when I accept the label &#8220;Calvinist.&#8221;</p>
<p>Future comments need to be about the actual material in the above post, or I will ask moderators to delete them.</p>
<p>Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/comment-page-1/#comment-74633</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:45:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/#comment-74633</guid>
		<description>Brian, 

I am not a Benny Hinn fan. Its just that I am  glad we live in a land of freedom you can be wrong about the Trinity and not be burned at the stake. 

Keith

PS Have any of you heard the Twisted Sister Christmas CD?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian, </p>
<p>I am not a Benny Hinn fan. Its just that I am  glad we live in a land of freedom you can be wrong about the Trinity and not be burned at the stake. </p>
<p>Keith</p>
<p>PS Have any of you heard the Twisted Sister Christmas CD?</p>
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		<title>By: Keith</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/comment-page-1/#comment-74626</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 21:27:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/#comment-74626</guid>
		<description>Phil, 

Your blog invites me to leave a reply. That is why I did leave a reply in this public forum without contacting you personally first. I thought you wanted me too. 

We agree on many things I am sure. I believe,like you, that God’s purposes are being fulfilled and will be fulfilled perfectly in the end. 

I believe God will save all humans He wants to save.
He will be merciful to whom He wants. 
He will harden whom He wants. 
He is soveriegn. 
He has the power and the wisdom to draw all men unto himself.
If He is lifted up He will do just that.
He is the Savior of the WORLD after all.
The gospel is GOOD Tidngs of GREAT JOY which shall be to ALL people.  
He will use me, you, Hybels, MacArthur or a donkey to speak His word and accomplish His will.
What is God&#039;s purpose; His will? 
The Lord is not willing that any should perish. 
His will be done.
He wants everyone to repent.
Amen.
God desires all men to be saved.
God is merciful to all.
God is not pleased with the death of the wicked. 
He wants them to turn and live. 
God can do all things. 
With God all things are possible.
God does whatever He pleases. 
God will bring all things into subjection to Christ. 
God will reconcile all things in Christ. 
God will bring to acquittal and life to all persons through Christ.
As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.  
Love Never fails. God is Love.
God will not cast off forever. 
God is Love. 
God’s tender mercies are over all His works. 
 
God does not forbid: opinion polls, public relations, salesmanship, merchandizing, and customer satisfaction.



God does not forbid: The culture and the study of marketing techniques, opinion polls and listener responses helping preachers to preach.

God does not forbid: Adapting our message to the preferences of the audience, or risk having them reject the message?

I say use all of these tools without excluding the Bible.

No, Paul told Timothy: “But you . . . fulfill your ministry.” “Preach the word! . . . in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.”

That is what we are called to do as pastors. True

But fads and fashions of our culture are not wrong in and of themselves.

What Fads are you talking about that are wrong?

Which fads and the programs are killing the evangelical movement?

If you are just trying to say preaching the Bible is more important than DRAMA, MUSIC, and THREE PC SUITS, I agree.

Maybe Hybels needs more Bible Preaching than skits. OK. Keep on praying for him. And so will I. Rebuke him, reprove him, admonish him, exhort him...etc  And I&#039;ll pray for you too. I have sure learned alot through GRACE TO YOU.

I am hoping not for the death of the fad-driven churches, what ever a fad-driven church is. I am hoping that churches will all grow and mature. I hope I live long enough to see that. 

Who are the fad driven churches?
What are the bad fads?
What sins do you want them to repent of?

Keith</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil, </p>
<p>Your blog invites me to leave a reply. That is why I did leave a reply in this public forum without contacting you personally first. I thought you wanted me too. </p>
<p>We agree on many things I am sure. I believe,like you, that God’s purposes are being fulfilled and will be fulfilled perfectly in the end. </p>
<p>I believe God will save all humans He wants to save.<br />
He will be merciful to whom He wants.<br />
He will harden whom He wants.<br />
He is soveriegn.<br />
He has the power and the wisdom to draw all men unto himself.<br />
If He is lifted up He will do just that.<br />
He is the Savior of the WORLD after all.<br />
The gospel is GOOD Tidngs of GREAT JOY which shall be to ALL people.<br />
He will use me, you, Hybels, MacArthur or a donkey to speak His word and accomplish His will.<br />
What is God&#8217;s purpose; His will?<br />
The Lord is not willing that any should perish.<br />
His will be done.<br />
He wants everyone to repent.<br />
Amen.<br />
God desires all men to be saved.<br />
God is merciful to all.<br />
God is not pleased with the death of the wicked.<br />
He wants them to turn and live.<br />
God can do all things.<br />
With God all things are possible.<br />
God does whatever He pleases.<br />
God will bring all things into subjection to Christ.<br />
God will reconcile all things in Christ.<br />
God will bring to acquittal and life to all persons through Christ.<br />
As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.<br />
Love Never fails. God is Love.<br />
God will not cast off forever.<br />
God is Love.<br />
God’s tender mercies are over all His works. </p>
<p>God does not forbid: opinion polls, public relations, salesmanship, merchandizing, and customer satisfaction.</p>
<p>God does not forbid: The culture and the study of marketing techniques, opinion polls and listener responses helping preachers to preach.</p>
<p>God does not forbid: Adapting our message to the preferences of the audience, or risk having them reject the message?</p>
<p>I say use all of these tools without excluding the Bible.</p>
<p>No, Paul told Timothy: “But you . . . fulfill your ministry.” “Preach the word! . . . in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.”</p>
<p>That is what we are called to do as pastors. True</p>
<p>But fads and fashions of our culture are not wrong in and of themselves.</p>
<p>What Fads are you talking about that are wrong?</p>
<p>Which fads and the programs are killing the evangelical movement?</p>
<p>If you are just trying to say preaching the Bible is more important than DRAMA, MUSIC, and THREE PC SUITS, I agree.</p>
<p>Maybe Hybels needs more Bible Preaching than skits. OK. Keep on praying for him. And so will I. Rebuke him, reprove him, admonish him, exhort him&#8230;etc  And I&#8217;ll pray for you too. I have sure learned alot through GRACE TO YOU.</p>
<p>I am hoping not for the death of the fad-driven churches, what ever a fad-driven church is. I am hoping that churches will all grow and mature. I hope I live long enough to see that. </p>
<p>Who are the fad driven churches?<br />
What are the bad fads?<br />
What sins do you want them to repent of?</p>
<p>Keith</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/comment-page-1/#comment-74612</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 20:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/#comment-74612</guid>
		<description>@Keith
&quot;But when was the last time Benny Hinn had anyone burned at the stake for getting the doctrine of the Trinity wrong?&quot;

This was hilarious, considering what Benny Hinn said about the Trinity:
“God the Father, ladies and gentleman, is a person and He is a triune being by Himself, separate from the Son and the Holy Ghost... See, God the Father is a person, God the Son is a person, God the Holy Ghost is a person; but each one of them is a triune being by himself. If I can shock you and maybe I should, there’s nine of them! What did you say? Let me explain. God the Father, ladies and gentlemen, is a person with his own personal spirit, with his own personal soul and his own personal spirit body.  You say, I never heard that!  Well, you think you are in church to hear things you heard for the last fifty years?”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Keith<br />
&#8220;But when was the last time Benny Hinn had anyone burned at the stake for getting the doctrine of the Trinity wrong?&#8221;</p>
<p>This was hilarious, considering what Benny Hinn said about the Trinity:<br />
“God the Father, ladies and gentleman, is a person and He is a triune being by Himself, separate from the Son and the Holy Ghost&#8230; See, God the Father is a person, God the Son is a person, God the Holy Ghost is a person; but each one of them is a triune being by himself. If I can shock you and maybe I should, there’s nine of them! What did you say? Let me explain. God the Father, ladies and gentlemen, is a person with his own personal spirit, with his own personal soul and his own personal spirit body.  You say, I never heard that!  Well, you think you are in church to hear things you heard for the last fifty years?”</p>
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		<title>By: Elizabeth</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/comment-page-1/#comment-74577</link>
		<dc:creator>Elizabeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:51:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/#comment-74577</guid>
		<description>Ok, a few things here.  I believe we need to quit calling ourselves Calvinists, non-Calvinists, ect. and call ourselves what we are, Christians -- we follow Christ.  I say this because man is not perfect -- Calvin, Luther, Zwingle (I probably misspelled that), etc. were not perfect and did some things we would not tolerate today.  We&#039;re guilty of taking the man out of his century.  They all agreed, including Knox, that there were wrong teachings of the Roman Catholic church; teachings that were not scriptural.  There were 10 things they agreed on totally, except for Luther who agreed with 9 and departed on the subject of the Lord&#039;s Supper.  The others taught that the Lord&#039;s Supper was in memorial of Christ and that he wasn&#039;t physically present in the wine and bread, being continually present because He is omnipresent already.

Having said that, they all agreed on what are called today the Doctrines of Grace, the aforementioned TULIP.  John MacArthur aptly renames them: Total Inability (to get to God on our own merits), Actual Atonement (those who are saved), God&#039;s Effectual Call (those whom he calls respond like Lazarus coming alive from death - a dead man can&#039;t respond unless he is called by God).  Perserverance of the Saints is the doctrine that one cannot lose their salvation that God has called them to because He will not lose anyone from His hand.

The Doctrine of Election is difficult because it is a paradox, but it is Biblical (read Romans 9).  It was difficult in Paul&#039;s day as well, because after stating it he goes on to say, who are we to question the way God has decided to do things...  There are things we cannot understand like why did God choose to love Jacob and hate Esau; the virgin birth; the trinity.  But just because we cannot totally understand them doesn&#039;t make them not true or not from God.  In fact, the more I study the Scripture, I come to believe that just in the fact that I cannot understand some of the paradoxes I find says more about how they are from God.  If I could understand everything, the doctrines would be man-made.  Who can know the mind of God? How unsearchable and unfathomable are His ways.

All that to say, if the Word was consistantly taught from the pulpit, maybe we would learn to study it on our own and know it and be able to pass it on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, a few things here.  I believe we need to quit calling ourselves Calvinists, non-Calvinists, ect. and call ourselves what we are, Christians &#8212; we follow Christ.  I say this because man is not perfect &#8212; Calvin, Luther, Zwingle (I probably misspelled that), etc. were not perfect and did some things we would not tolerate today.  We&#8217;re guilty of taking the man out of his century.  They all agreed, including Knox, that there were wrong teachings of the Roman Catholic church; teachings that were not scriptural.  There were 10 things they agreed on totally, except for Luther who agreed with 9 and departed on the subject of the Lord&#8217;s Supper.  The others taught that the Lord&#8217;s Supper was in memorial of Christ and that he wasn&#8217;t physically present in the wine and bread, being continually present because He is omnipresent already.</p>
<p>Having said that, they all agreed on what are called today the Doctrines of Grace, the aforementioned TULIP.  John MacArthur aptly renames them: Total Inability (to get to God on our own merits), Actual Atonement (those who are saved), God&#8217;s Effectual Call (those whom he calls respond like Lazarus coming alive from death &#8211; a dead man can&#8217;t respond unless he is called by God).  Perserverance of the Saints is the doctrine that one cannot lose their salvation that God has called them to because He will not lose anyone from His hand.</p>
<p>The Doctrine of Election is difficult because it is a paradox, but it is Biblical (read Romans 9).  It was difficult in Paul&#8217;s day as well, because after stating it he goes on to say, who are we to question the way God has decided to do things&#8230;  There are things we cannot understand like why did God choose to love Jacob and hate Esau; the virgin birth; the trinity.  But just because we cannot totally understand them doesn&#8217;t make them not true or not from God.  In fact, the more I study the Scripture, I come to believe that just in the fact that I cannot understand some of the paradoxes I find says more about how they are from God.  If I could understand everything, the doctrines would be man-made.  Who can know the mind of God? How unsearchable and unfathomable are His ways.</p>
<p>All that to say, if the Word was consistantly taught from the pulpit, maybe we would learn to study it on our own and know it and be able to pass it on.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/comment-page-1/#comment-74575</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/15/the-flaws-of-a-fad-driven-church/#comment-74575</guid>
		<description>Phil,
Don&#039;t get me wrong. I like you and John MacArthur. I think you are smarter than me and more successful than me. I just disagree with your theology on some points. I am sorry if I sound mean or arrogant. I have listened to John MacArthur since 1979. I like you guys because you will at least discuss these topics with me. Many people won&#039;t. For me Calvinism is depressing. All I see is God torturing 99% of people to Hell. And Calvin says babies go to hell too. But John MacArthur says &quot;instant heaven&quot; for babies on &quot;Larry King&quot;. So John is a Calvinist, but he does not agree with Calvin on many things. Am I right about that? Calvin was just a man. Hybels is just a man. Me too. John MacArthur an Phil are just men. Maybe Hybels should preach more in depth. I would love to hear Phil or John MacArthur debate the christian Universalists like Gary Amirault and Tom Talbott. Thanks for replying to my comments. You people are very interesting. I don&#039;t think you are harsh or Pharisees. I think you feel passion for your beliefs, thats all. Thanks for &quot;reasoning together&quot; with me.
Keith</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil,<br />
Don&#8217;t get me wrong. I like you and John MacArthur. I think you are smarter than me and more successful than me. I just disagree with your theology on some points. I am sorry if I sound mean or arrogant. I have listened to John MacArthur since 1979. I like you guys because you will at least discuss these topics with me. Many people won&#8217;t. For me Calvinism is depressing. All I see is God torturing 99% of people to Hell. And Calvin says babies go to hell too. But John MacArthur says &#8220;instant heaven&#8221; for babies on &#8220;Larry King&#8221;. So John is a Calvinist, but he does not agree with Calvin on many things. Am I right about that? Calvin was just a man. Hybels is just a man. Me too. John MacArthur an Phil are just men. Maybe Hybels should preach more in depth. I would love to hear Phil or John MacArthur debate the christian Universalists like Gary Amirault and Tom Talbott. Thanks for replying to my comments. You people are very interesting. I don&#8217;t think you are harsh or Pharisees. I think you feel passion for your beliefs, thats all. Thanks for &#8220;reasoning together&#8221; with me.<br />
Keith</p>
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