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	<title>Comments on: Why Elder Rule? (Part 1)</title>
	<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/</link>
	<description>A Ministry of Shepherds' Fellowship</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:49:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/#comment-79566</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:40:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/#comment-79566</guid>
					<description>Interesting article! Different view though. Timothy was a single pastor (Bishop) of a church. The word elder is the same word as Bishop. Everyone who promotes the elder rule concept never uses biblical context. Titus 1:5 is used “ordain Elders in every city”. But no one reads the next 2 verse These elders are Bishop (s) Singular. Pastor, Bishop and Elder is the same office. Cheers Christopher</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting article! Different view though. Timothy was a single pastor (Bishop) of a church. The word elder is the same word as Bishop. Everyone who promotes the elder rule concept never uses biblical context. Titus 1:5 is used “ordain Elders in every city”. But no one reads the next 2 verse These elders are Bishop (s) Singular. Pastor, Bishop and Elder is the same office. Cheers Christopher
</p>
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		<title>by: jeff flora</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/#comment-72969</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:18:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/#comment-72969</guid>
					<description>Tom, Also, I have observed all of the attitudes you have listed in almost all of those whom I know in the home church movement.
Let us hold fast to that which is good!!!
Jeff</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, Also, I have observed all of the attitudes you have listed in almost all of those whom I know in the home church movement.<br />
Let us hold fast to that which is good!!!<br />
Jeff
</p>
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		<title>by: jeff flora</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/#comment-72968</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:15:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/#comment-72968</guid>
					<description>Tom, Thank you so much for the balanced counsel.  When I mentioned the size problem of a home church I was thinking that my home could only hold 4 or 5 families (I have 10 children and my family is not the largest).  This would severely limit the representation of the spiritual gifts to the point of possibly running the risk of becoming out of balance.  That was my thought.  I believe we have at least one who is qualified and desires to be an elder. 
Praying,
Jeff</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, Thank you so much for the balanced counsel.  When I mentioned the size problem of a home church I was thinking that my home could only hold 4 or 5 families (I have 10 children and my family is not the largest).  This would severely limit the representation of the spiritual gifts to the point of possibly running the risk of becoming out of balance.  That was my thought.  I believe we have at least one who is qualified and desires to be an elder.<br />
Praying,<br />
Jeff
</p>
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		<title>by: tomgirotti</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/#comment-72856</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2007 00:24:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/#comment-72856</guid>
					<description>Amen, great treatment on this subject, GCC. I think it reveals your approach of relying on the Scriptures as sufficient in ordering how we think about and practice church life. Much of the modern leadership models we see today have evolved away from the Scriptural pattern due to politics, pragmatism, etc. It is refreshing to read this teaching calling us back to the Lord's norm.

Jeff, not to hijack this very important thread, but I wanted to also offer some thoughts on your comment about the home church movement (and it does intersect with the topic of elder leadership). Like most "movements", this one in my view covers a broad spectrum of ideas and practices, some healthy and some very unhealthy. First, some unhealthy aspects I've observed: (1) SOME home churchers exude a spirit of pride and condescension, looking down on their "institutional church" brethren as unenlightened or evil; (2) reacting against perceived or real clergy abuse in their past, SOME home churchers take a very casual view of leadership or dispense with it altogether, ignoring the Bible's teaching on elders; (3) SOME home churchers are so laissez-faire about any kind of "form" or regulation that they ignore clear Biblical patterns and instructions about church life, preferring their own serendipitous whims.

Now with all that being said, I think there is much to commend within this movement: (1) Getting back to the Bible: meeting in believers' homes is a consistent NT pattern, established by the apostles, and not just because of persecution. Not that the structure's architecture is the priority issue, but a home's familial setting and atmosphere is much more conducive to practicing all the one anothers enjoined in the NT. Our gathering is for the purpose of mutually edifying and encouraging one another in the Lord. The NT doesn't mention "having a service" where only 1 or 2 people run the whole show; (2) Some home churchers actually do follow the Bible in examining and recognizing qualified men as elders to lead the church. They feed and protect the flock. (3) The home church's necessarily smaller size ensures that no one can hide. The relationships tend to be closer, and the elders can better know the people they lead. Of course, this closeness also tends to bring issues into the open sooner and they have to be dealt with lovingly and Biblically.

Jeff, the one specific concern you mention ("you are so limited to the size of the church") - - are you talking about the difficulty of finding enough qualified men to be elders? If so, that is a valid concern, but that was overcome in the NT, and it can be overcome now. Jesse's comments about getting an existing elder/pastor from another church to help in a provisional way is one good idea - - but his help needs to include developing some of the men to the point where they are mature enough and are qualified to lead.

tom</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen, great treatment on this subject, GCC. I think it reveals your approach of relying on the Scriptures as sufficient in ordering how we think about and practice church life. Much of the modern leadership models we see today have evolved away from the Scriptural pattern due to politics, pragmatism, etc. It is refreshing to read this teaching calling us back to the Lord&#8217;s norm.</p>
<p>Jeff, not to hijack this very important thread, but I wanted to also offer some thoughts on your comment about the home church movement (and it does intersect with the topic of elder leadership). Like most &#8220;movements&#8221;, this one in my view covers a broad spectrum of ideas and practices, some healthy and some very unhealthy. First, some unhealthy aspects I&#8217;ve observed: (1) SOME home churchers exude a spirit of pride and condescension, looking down on their &#8220;institutional church&#8221; brethren as unenlightened or evil; (2) reacting against perceived or real clergy abuse in their past, SOME home churchers take a very casual view of leadership or dispense with it altogether, ignoring the Bible&#8217;s teaching on elders; (3) SOME home churchers are so laissez-faire about any kind of &#8220;form&#8221; or regulation that they ignore clear Biblical patterns and instructions about church life, preferring their own serendipitous whims.</p>
<p>Now with all that being said, I think there is much to commend within this movement: (1) Getting back to the Bible: meeting in believers&#8217; homes is a consistent NT pattern, established by the apostles, and not just because of persecution. Not that the structure&#8217;s architecture is the priority issue, but a home&#8217;s familial setting and atmosphere is much more conducive to practicing all the one anothers enjoined in the NT. Our gathering is for the purpose of mutually edifying and encouraging one another in the Lord. The NT doesn&#8217;t mention &#8220;having a service&#8221; where only 1 or 2 people run the whole show; (2) Some home churchers actually do follow the Bible in examining and recognizing qualified men as elders to lead the church. They feed and protect the flock. (3) The home church&#8217;s necessarily smaller size ensures that no one can hide. The relationships tend to be closer, and the elders can better know the people they lead. Of course, this closeness also tends to bring issues into the open sooner and they have to be dealt with lovingly and Biblically.</p>
<p>Jeff, the one specific concern you mention (&#8221;you are so limited to the size of the church&#8221;) - - are you talking about the difficulty of finding enough qualified men to be elders? If so, that is a valid concern, but that was overcome in the NT, and it can be overcome now. Jesse&#8217;s comments about getting an existing elder/pastor from another church to help in a provisional way is one good idea - - but his help needs to include developing some of the men to the point where they are mature enough and are qualified to lead.</p>
<p>tom
</p>
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		<title>by: Jeff Flora</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/#comment-72832</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:37:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/#comment-72832</guid>
					<description>Jesse,
I suppose this is not the forum for going into a lot of details but I thank you for your biblical advice. Pray for us as we move foreword.  We only want His direction, not ours.
Jeff</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jesse,<br />
I suppose this is not the forum for going into a lot of details but I thank you for your biblical advice. Pray for us as we move foreword.  We only want His direction, not ours.<br />
Jeff
</p>
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		<title>by: donsands</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/#comment-72800</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/#comment-72800</guid>
					<description>"The different terms, then, indicate various features of ministry, not varying levels of authority or separate offices, as some churches espouse."

Amen.

I was an elder in a local EFCA church, and we all complimented one another pretty much. 
Rulers, (Heb. 13:7), shepherds, teachers, evangelists, and other gifts as well. We had times of disagreements, but we were all sold out for the Gospel, and for Christ, and so we would meet at the Cross, and wait on the Holy Spirit to fill us with His wisdom. He was faithful, if we were patient.
When we were impatient, then we had problems. It's tough to wait on the Lord in this age. The flesh is weak, and yet the spirit is willing.

My exhortation for all elders is to be patient. And above all, love one another, with a deep genuine love, the love Christ calls us to. If this love is lacking, then beware. Strengthem this love most of all. Also elders need to be able to teach the Word. Of course not ever elder will be a scholar, but they should have their Bibles in hand more than not. Without the sword of the Spirit to wield for the protection and comfort of the sheep, the sheep will be scattered for sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The different terms, then, indicate various features of ministry, not varying levels of authority or separate offices, as some churches espouse.&#8221;</p>
<p>Amen.</p>
<p>I was an elder in a local EFCA church, and we all complimented one another pretty much.<br />
Rulers, (Heb. 13:7), shepherds, teachers, evangelists, and other gifts as well. We had times of disagreements, but we were all sold out for the Gospel, and for Christ, and so we would meet at the Cross, and wait on the Holy Spirit to fill us with His wisdom. He was faithful, if we were patient.<br />
When we were impatient, then we had problems. It&#8217;s tough to wait on the Lord in this age. The flesh is weak, and yet the spirit is willing.</p>
<p>My exhortation for all elders is to be patient. And above all, love one another, with a deep genuine love, the love Christ calls us to. If this love is lacking, then beware. Strengthem this love most of all. Also elders need to be able to teach the Word. Of course not ever elder will be a scholar, but they should have their Bibles in hand more than not. Without the sword of the Spirit to wield for the protection and comfort of the sheep, the sheep will be scattered for sure.
</p>
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		<title>by: Jesse Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/#comment-72727</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:54:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/#comment-72727</guid>
					<description>Jeff,

For accountability with money, for accountability on teaching/doctrine, and for wisdom on the direction of the church, I strongly suggest that some sort of oversight be established in your church. If there are only a few men, it is likely that they are all acting in this role already. If none of them (or only one of them) is qualified to be an elder, I would really look at an outside body to help you get established. Perhaps a church that some of you left (hopefully you left on good terms!). The idea is that you need leaders to cast vision, to be accountable, and to be above reproach. If there is an elder or pastor in your local area who is more familiar with your situation than you can describe here, I'd ask him for help in getting established.

Thanks,

Jesse</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff,</p>
<p>For accountability with money, for accountability on teaching/doctrine, and for wisdom on the direction of the church, I strongly suggest that some sort of oversight be established in your church. If there are only a few men, it is likely that they are all acting in this role already. If none of them (or only one of them) is qualified to be an elder, I would really look at an outside body to help you get established. Perhaps a church that some of you left (hopefully you left on good terms!). The idea is that you need leaders to cast vision, to be accountable, and to be above reproach. If there is an elder or pastor in your local area who is more familiar with your situation than you can describe here, I&#8217;d ask him for help in getting established.</p>
<p>Thanks,</p>
<p>Jesse
</p>
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		<title>by: jeff flora</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/#comment-72639</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:55:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/#comment-72639</guid>
					<description>Sorry, I meant to ask you about this idea of haveing provisional leadership until we believe someone is qualified to be an elder.  What are your thoughts?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I meant to ask you about this idea of haveing provisional leadership until we believe someone is qualified to be an elder.  What are your thoughts?
</p>
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		<title>by: jeff flora</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/#comment-72637</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/11/12/why-elder-rule-part-1/#comment-72637</guid>
					<description>We have started a church (Jan. 1st 2007) with 4 families (now 7) with provisional leadership since we did not want to lay hands on anyone prematurely.  We believe as you portrayed here in this article that we should be lead by a plurality of elders and not one of them is to be “head elder”.  

Also, what are your thoughts on this “home church” movement I see around here (Kansas)?  Are you aware of this movement?  I have some problems with it since you are so limited to the size of the church.  Maybe this could be a separate article.
Thank you, 
Jeff</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have started a church (Jan. 1st 2007) with 4 families (now 7) with provisional leadership since we did not want to lay hands on anyone prematurely.  We believe as you portrayed here in this article that we should be lead by a plurality of elders and not one of them is to be “head elder”.  </p>
<p>Also, what are your thoughts on this “home church” movement I see around here (Kansas)?  Are you aware of this movement?  I have some problems with it since you are so limited to the size of the church.  Maybe this could be a separate article.<br />
Thank you,<br />
Jeff
</p>
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