Doug Pagitt’s Recent Interview
October 26th, 2007
(By Nathan Busenitz)
Okay… so this is already four days old (which is like four millennia in the blogosphere), but with fires in Santa Clarita at the beginning of this week, I didn’t hear of it until yesterday.
For some of you this will be old news. (Sorry.) But for those of you who haven’t heard this yet, you really need to take a few minutes and listen to it. It is a radio interview between Todd Friel (of Way of the Master radio) and Doug Pagitt (a leading figure within the Emergent Church). It’s about 15 minutes long and worth the time.
If you are at all curious about where (at least one leading voice within) the Emergent Church stands theologically, this is a pretty eye-opening indicator.
For the 2-part YouTube version click here.
For the full podcast/MP3 version click here. (Note: The part with Pagitt is about 5 minutes into the show.)
For Todd Friel’s follow up article click here.
I listened to this when it was first on WOTM. It was utterly incredible how Pagitt responded to everything Todd said or asked. Pagitt was extremely defensive and had to have everything pried out of him. But, I can confidently say this: I have no doubt at all that he teaches a very different gospel from Dr. MacArthur and there is no question whose is the perverted version (and it ain’t Dr. Mac’s).
Thank you very much for posting it in here.
I found it to be an unhelpful interview due to the confrontation nature. While I don’t agree with all of Pagitt’s thoughts and theology, I don’t agree with MacArthur’s or Friel’s either.
What would have been a helpful interview could have been a gentlemanly dialogue where the two people didn’t speak over each other and perhaps some understanding could be reached.
I’m not a subscriber to the emergent Church ideology, but I have to say that the more I see it being mis-characterized and attacked by its own Brothers and Sisters in Christ… the more I want to defend it and find value in it.
For those interested, Matt Slick interviewed Mr.Pagitt recently as well, I believe the interview itself lasted about a 1/2 hour. You can get the mp3 of the podcast here:
http://carmpodcasting.blogspot.com/2007/10/matt-slick-and-doug-paget-discuss.html
Lord have mercy on Doug Paggit. This man, not only is lost, but he has been deceived in such a way that is hopeless. He is right, and everyone else is wrong. And I have no idea what he teaches about heaven and hell. It’s impossible to know what he is saying, and yet he says it’s simple when compared to the simple truth, which is wrong.
For he condemns true Christianity as heresy, and his teaching as true Christianity.
Sad, very sad.
But he would say the same thing about what i just wrote.
Well I have so say…Emergent Church is a cult!
so the Cosmos isn’t a place heh? So I’m nowhere right now…
I have no idea what his doctrine is, as he didn’t seem to give anything – all we can know from that is that it
1)is completely opposed to historical Christianity and systematic theology
2)makes no sense whatsoever
3)is very vague
4)is defined by what it says isn’t right, rather than what says is right.
The only doctrinal thing I got is that Pagitt doesn’t believe the blood of Christ does anything – we get treated the same – so we’d be accountable and punished (though Pagitt denies that) the same as a non-believer, rather than be told that our punishment is taken by Jesus (Pagitt says that faith doesn’t make a difference to how we are ‘judged’).
One of the things that struck me was how whenever Mr. Pagitt was confronted with a question that he really didn’t like, he responded with comments like “You know, this isn’t an interesting conversation…this is just not an interesting or helpful conversation for me to be a part of.” That, plus his readiness to label Todd’s positions as “false,” indicate to me that Mr. Pagitt isn’t really as interested in promoting discussion as he is in promoting his own bizarre version of Christianity, and labeling those with whom he disagrees as “unreasonable” at best.
I’m familiar with the Emergents and have listened to their heretical podcasts many times. Still, thie was jaw-dropping. Unabashed heresy in the name of Christ. The devil himself would almost blush at Pagitt’s brazenness.
Christ isn’t going to say “well done”, He’s going to set the barbecue knob to well done!
In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. And you know the way where I am going. — Jesus, the dualistic platonist, recorded in John 14:2-4
Another verse that describes this whole situation:
Just as Jannes and Jambres (Y)opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also. — 2Pet 3:8-9
Pray for discernment for people, that they may see this obvious folly.
“…hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.”
Tried and proven methods of interpretation such as the historical – grammatical method are such because no matter what Scripture passage you apply them to it never pits one passage against another. These methods give us the most faithful account of what the author meant when he wrote. They also convey most accurately what was understood by those to whom the authors wrote.
In other words, without the proper methods of Bible interpretation we cannot be certain about our theology or anything else for that matter. This is where we find Doug Pagitt – walking blind, out of touch and out of sync with God’s holy, authoritative word.
What gobbledeegook! The way Doug answers questions hurts my brain!!! Emergent language is so nonsensical. Speaking of where a person goes after death. No difference in how we will interact with God? How a persons life transforms into the evermore? I thought emergents was about breaking it down being plain its too complicated for me. Give me pastor Mac and verse by verse any day!!!
It’s really sad what Doug Pagitt is doing here, I just heard the interview this morning.
It’s obvious to me its just another “how to please the world and use the Bible” kinda thing.
No one goes to Hell. No one gets offended, but if something sounds offensive, you spin it to mean something else (how he metamorphes anything about hell).
This movement will last as long as its ppl don’t read the Bible, which I’m sure they’ll have no trouble with.
that was just incredible. he’s a very confusing man who seems to be most skilled at dodging a question and then get your head spinning so you don’t know what to think. good thing Todd was able to stay on track and stick to the same question no matter how many times Doug sidestepped it.
I was thinking of the same verse you mentioned Mike (John 14:2-4) while I was watching…it would be interesting to see how he explained , then again, maybe not…
thanks for the post Nate,
john
I wonder how Mr. Pagitt maneuvers his way out of this:
…dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, AWAY FROM THE PRESENCE of the Lord and from the glory of His power…
2 Thess. 1:8-9
Now you see it, now you don’t. What is is? Where is there when you get there. Be here now, be now here, now be nowhere? What’s the difference in an orange. Oumoum……
Pagitt is the origional nowhere man sitting in his nowhere land thinking of his nowhere plan for nobody. REAL-izationism was a central fascist thought. To real-ize the perfect man, in a perfect world, to manifest the son’s of God in the here and now, was the theme of Triumph of the Will by Adolph Hitler. By claiming that the world is a creation of the linguistic metanarative, the Word made manifest, was the crux (cross),the swaztika (see Mein Kampf). In short the swaztika was a symbol of perfection, nervana, well being. It is the people that make the state, the state is the people, people are what the state says they are. Reality becomes pure subjectivism. The final arbitor is the state, which, established by the will of the people, declares and creates what is real by the collective will invested in it. In the final analysis what is real is the state. This is “statism” fascist style. So, it all depends on your definition, or in other words, what state you’re in.
This man is scary- not because I think he knows what he is laying the ground work for, but because he and millions of others do not know.
Luke 23:42-43 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, TODAY you will be with me IN PARADISE.”
Sounds like these two had an appointment somewhere REAL later that day. Yes….THERE!!! Not in some future-perfect earth thousands of years later. Would Pagitt say Jesus was offering some false metaphoric/euphamistic hope to make him feel better on his death bed? If so, why did he not offer the same hope to the other criminal? Would he say that Jesus is a Platonist? Hmmm…Jesus did create Plato…I’ll have to ponder that.
Of course, if this whole account is just a quaint narrative, passed down by shepherds sitting around campfires, rather than the inspired, inerrant word of God, you can somehow fit that into your “theology”
You know, we can be outraged by Pagitt’s offenses against the Gospel, or we can mock Pagitt for his absurdity. But our first response should be a profound sadness that God’s name is being slandered and that thousands are being led astray by this man’s false teaching. God help them all – we need to be on our knees for them.
Very revealing. John 14:2-3 says, “In my Father’s HOUSE are many ROOMS. If it were not so, would I have told you that I GO to prepare a PLACE for you? And if I GO and prepare a PLACE for you, I will COME again and will take you TO myself, that WHERE I am you may BE also.”
But of course, Christ was a Platonist. Sounds to me as if Pagitt didn’t even know what HE believed.
I think Pagitt needs to read Luke 16:23-25 if he believes that no one will be sent to hell (an actual place of torment).
Luke 16:23-25 “And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.”
Where does Pagitt’s ideas come from? Surely he didn’t just invent these ideas. Does anybody have a clue as to what Pagitt might positively articulate heaven and new creation to be?
Michael -
If you think Doug Pagitt is a “brother in Christ” you are sadly mistaken. His books are full of half-truths and perversions of the gospel. And lately, with these frequent interviews, Pagitt continues to demonstrate his utter disdain for the authority of God’s word. I don’t think Pagitt is a well-meaning but misguided soul at all. Every retort he gave the host of the show was obviously a deliberate attempt to paint Todd F. as a behind-the-times, strangely unorthodox dinosaur from the archaic days of modernism. He knew exactly what he was doing! Once he sized up the direction of the show his rants were more like condescending dismissals in order to appear progressively Jesus-friendly.
“What about his emphasis on ‘the Jesus narrative of life’?”
Doug Pagitt knows nothing of the true Jesus Christ whose very revelation is the scriptures.
2 Timothy 3:5 -
“Holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; and avoid such men as these. 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith.”
Don’t be deceived my friend. Study the Gospels in depth and Pagitt’s entire system crumbles under the weight.
wow. all of emergent village speaks definitively in Doug Pagitt?
This is a fascinating development.
Everyone who is friends with him or remotely connected to him is now responsible for his excesses, mistakes, behavior, etc?
That’s great.
Next time someone paints us all with a broad brush because of the occasional idiocy of Pat Robertson…you get my point.
If Pagitt is not your brother, then have compassion on him as one who is lost, pray for his salvation.
If Pagitt is a wayward brother, then pray for him and read the Bible that says restore him gently, that tells you something about what God expects of you…even when you proclaim the Absolute Truth of the inerrant Word of God.
I don’t see any of this in these discussions (that sadly become forums for peoples spleen venting).
It’s not indicative of the Spirit of Christ and such composure is not incompatible with speaking the Truth.
For the sake of the Kingdom, our witness and the health of the Church we all need to grow up.
Wow! I find it interesting that we can all sit around and talk down about Doug Pagitt. I personally do not find that to be the most Christ like approach. Isn’t that what we should be seeking to do? I mean we are Christians right? I do think it was an entertaining and very eye opening interview. We should use it to learn about where we don’t want to go with our theology. I beg of you all though please pray for the Emergent Church, and Emergent Village. They have potential to reach millions of people, but if they are afraid of the truth then there will be no point to reaching those millions. If you are interested in learning more on this topic please check out my web site… http://www.TheFireofNewDesire.com
Todd was rather arrogant at times, but after all, he’s a Calvinist and that is part and parcel with Calvinism.
However, I think it is obvious that Doug is lost. He uses warm, fuzzy words to make himself and his theology sound deep and intellectual, as well as thought out, but it’s really not. It’s just burying anything concrete in a bunch of warm, fuzzy and intellectual words.
I think one interesting thing is, as Calvinism is often criticized for its surrounding arrogance and intellectual ivory tower basis that makes the gospel unreachable for the common man, what Doug believes(which I am not quite sure what that is), has the same issue. You can’t really know what to believe about anything, and I’ll throw the word “platonic” in there, and “cosmology” in there, and maybe if I throw enough philosophical words in to the mix, I can avoid having concrete, explainable beliefs about pretty much anything, and I will still sound researched, well thought out, and “spiritual” if I use enough big words to explain what I may or may not believe.
It sounds like Todd and many others had already made decisions about Doug Pagitt before even letting him speak. The questions asked of this man were so loaded with accusation and misunderstanding, I think it reprehensible that such a disrespecting, unloving, un-Christian interview took place in the name of Jesus. As one who is genuinely trying to find out more of what the Emergent Church is trying to do in this world, I think interview and the one-sided commentaries that followed on this site -completely unhelpful. Pagitt was much more respectful and honest than Todd, and he seemed to have a more thorough understanding of Scripture and the integrity of the gospel than Todd’s string of favorite judgment verses. I don’t think Pagitt was trying to avoid the truth of God’s judgment and our call to live godly lives. Perhaps if people actually listened to him and let themselves use the brains God gave them to think critically instead of instantly condemn, the church might truly be the Body of Christ in this world, working toward redemption and reconciliation. For we will all be judged, as you say.
Susan,
Pagitt seemed to have a more thorough understanding of the scripture than Todd?? More like he threw out much of it. John 14:2-3 says, “In my Father’s HOUSE are many ROOMS. If it were not so, would I have told you that I GO to prepare a PLACE for you? And if I GO and prepare a PLACE for you, I will COME again and will take you TO myself, that WHERE I am you may BE also.”
Luke 16:23-25 “And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in TORMENTS, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am TORMENTED in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art TORMENTED.”
You know, I’m getting really bugged by the way we throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, Pagitt and McLaren have some goofy views. In my opinion so does MacArthur. Heck, I probably have some goofy views myself. People call emerging people a cult because of what Pagitt says? How about I call Calvinists haters because Calvin burned people at the stake if they disagreed with his views. How about I call Lutherans, or anyone non-caltholic, nazis because Luther called for the expulsion of all Jews from Europe. See the stupidity? You would say I’m a jerk if I lumped you in with the errant views of those men, however we’d all acknowledge that despite their misguided ways they also gave us some great intellectual gifts. Reformed people have some goofy guys. Evangelicals have some goofy guys. Emerging people have some goofy guys. Pagitt, like Calvin, has some goofy things to say and some good things to say too.