Thanks for your gracious response. I also have seen this type of debate get a little too carried away. I think people tend to forget that, in this debate, they are usually dealing with brothers and sisters in Christ.

You said, “The biblical doctrine of election/predestination is where God chose a body or group of people to be saved…but each individual has the opportunity to respond (choose) whether or not to be included in that body.”

These statements are in contradiction. Either God chose or man chose. If God chose first, as you said in your first section, then there is no choice for man to make, unless God’s choice is not powerfull enough. Are you saying that God needs our permission to bring us to Himself. As you have admitted, God chose a body of believers to be saved. This is what Calvinists call election; think of the very name “election”. It is done previously to the actual salvation, in fact, before the foundation of the world. If this is true, then is it certain that those that God has chosen will come to Him?

Appreciate your comments

Your brother in Christ,
Daniel Chaney

Thanks for all the reading material, but I have read it many times with a different interpretation than you.

I believe that the elect is the body of believers. The biblical doctrine of election/predestination is where God chose a body or group of people to be saved, but each individual has the opportunity to respond (choose) whether or not to be included in that body.

Consider this illustration……

I view biblical election as an elevator called “believers in Christ” that is predestined to go up. After hearing the Gospel a person chooses whether or not to get on the elevator. God, in His infinite wisdom, already knows who will and won’t get on that elevator and therefore has foreknowledge.

Daniel, we just view this differently. We can both keep pointing to various Scriptures to validate our belief, but it really comes down to this; one of us is wrong and we are going to point the finger at the other and say ‘he is wrong’. We can’t both be right.

Does this mean that either one of us is lost? No. I believe that we can both be saved (as I think you do too) no matter which view we take.

As long as there will be this debate of election and predestination we need to always be careful not to be seen by the world as fighting among ourselves. As long as the debate is in the format we have used here (polite and courteous) the debate is healthy. I have seen many debates on this subject get ugly and viscous. When this happens non-believers see the believers as a divided and hostile group that they would never consider listening to.

Thanks for the discussion.

Wayne

Read Acts 13. When you get to verse 48, tell me what you think.

Also read: 2 Thes. 2:13, Rom. 8:28-30, Eph. 2:1-10, Eph. 1:4-6,11, 2 Tim. 1:9, John 13:18.

What do you think that “before the foundation of the world”, “Predestined”, “from the beginnig”, and “before ordained” mean, if not just that?

Of course I don’t put in a good word for myself and my good decision when I thank God for my salvation; I didn’t do anything myself to earn salvation (lest I should boast); unless you count responding to the Gospel that was preached to me the day I was saved (And I know you don’t).

I disagree with your statement ‘It indicates that God’s work reaches into our hearts to bring about a response that is absolutely certain-even though we respond voluntarily.’

If God is bringing about a response, and the response is what brings about salvation, it wasn’t voluntary on my part.

Remember –

1 Tim 2:6 ‘Who (Jesus) gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.’

Hebrews 2:9 – ‘But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.’

Christ died for all men, tasted death for every man. Every man who hears the Gospel has an opportunity to respond; positively or negatively. If the person repents and trusts in Christ to save him, he is now the elect.

Whosoever… All….Every man….Anyone….He that….(Scripture ref’s already provided)

Those words above are not for the elect as you define elect, they are for every one.

You said, “Obviously you acknowledge that there are verses that say the opposite of the view you’re taking.”

No, I said the opposite of that. I believe what I believe, because there are no verses that say the opposite. However, Paul’s view in Romans 9:10-24 does contradict your view. Do I believe that people with your view can be saved? Absolutely! Do I believe that both views are correct? In a sense they are. Your view is the correct view in that your view describes man’s perspective of salvation. Do I believe that there are verses that support it? Yes, but those verses do not say that man has the ability (in and of himself) to convert to a view which 1 Corinthians 2:14 says that he is not even able to understand. If I were witnessing to someone, I would ask him to accept Christ. Am I admitting by this that I believe that man has this ability by himself? No, I am saying that that fact that he accepts Christ, in itself, is proof that the Holy Spirit was drawing him.

This leads me to another statement you made: “If they are drawn by the Father, are they the elect as you see them? If they reject the Gospel, does that mean they were not the elect?”

Yes. 1Th 1:4-6 says, “Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:”

Here we see that the apostles knew that the Thessalonians were the elect because they accepted Christ. Had they not accepted Him, the apostles would have known that they were not the elect. “They accepted because they were elect”, not “they were elect because they accepted.”

You said, “In other words, you ‘chose’ (LOL) to follow some verses of Scripture instead of others.”

I “Choose” to follow all of scripture. Does this mean that God is not in control of my decisions? No

When you thank God for your salvation, do you also put in a good word for yourself and your “good decision”?

The term “Irresistable Grace” is subject to misunderstanding since it SEEMS to imply that people do not make a voluntary, willing choice in responding to the gospel-a wrong idea. Irresistable Grace refers to the fact that God effectively calls people and also gives them regeneration, both actions guarantee that we will respond in saving faith. It indicates that God’s work reaches into our hearts to bring about a response that is absolutely certain-even though we respond voluntarily.

Obviously I seem to be somewhere in the middle of what a full blown Calvinist believes and what a full blown Armenian believes.

What is interesting to me is this statement you made……

‘First, I want you to know that I would not hold to this view if I thought that certain verses explicitly said the opposite. I would never hold to a view that is not supported with scripture. I would never ignore or “explain away” certain verses.’

Obviously you acknowledge that there are verses that say the opposite of the view you’re taking. Why? Because there are verses that say the opposite (in your view) of what I’m trying to show you, you must agree that there are verses that say the opposite of what you’re trying to show me.

In other words, you ‘chose’ (LOL) to follow some verses of Scripture instead of others.

I’m saying that these Scriptures work in harmony of each other and do not contradict. I see a God part and a man part.

Here’s where it can get really crazy……If the only way to Christ is if the Father draws him, what happens (or can it happen) if that person rejects the Gospel? If they are drawn by the Father, are they the elect as you see them? If they reject the Gospel, does that mean they were not the elect?

Listen, in the end, you are my brother in Christ and because of this I love you as a brother. The good news for either one of us is that we were drawn by the Father to repent of our sins and place our trust in Christ to save us. For that, I am forever indebted to my Lord and Savior. I am a bondservant to Him. I was a slave to sin and now I am a slave to Christ. I was lost and now I’m found.

I can’t wait to see my Lord and cast down any crowns I may have on that day!!
In Him,
Wayne

You said, “Look what Jesus say’s in John 6:40 – And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV) You have to ignore ‘every one’ in that verse (or explain it away).”

First, I want you to know that I would not hold to this view if I thought that certain verses explicitly said the opposite. I would never hold to a view that is not supported with scripture. I would never ignore or “explain away” certain verses.

I believe that “EVERYONE” that believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. I believe that whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. I never said that I didn’t believe this. I just believe that God causes them to believe on Himself. Keep in mind that all of these verses are written to men. Man’s perspective of salvation is that I chose to follow Christ. Right now, I am choosing to type this post. However, since other verses say that salvation is all of God and none of man, we must see that God’s perspective of salvation is quite different from ours.

You said, “I know this; man cannot come to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:37, 39, 44). How does this happen? Is it the sovereign work of God alone or does man have a part in it?”

I believe that it is the sovereign work of God alone. Romans 9:10-24 is Paul’s view of this subject. Verse 16 is specifically what I would like you to consider: “So then it (God’s choosing/salvation/election) is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” If God draws a man to Himself, as you have stated, then salvation is the sovereign work of God alone, because man’s “part in it” is brought about by God.

We may have to agree to disagree.

I know this; man cannot come to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:37, 39, 44). How does this happen? Is it the sovereign work of God alone or does man have a part in it?

Look what Jesus say’s in John 6:40 – And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)

You have to ignore ‘every one’ in that verse (or explain it away).

Look at what Jesus say’s in John 6:45 – It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Again, ‘every man’ is going to hard to ignore and explain away. Every man that ‘hears’ the Word of God AND learns of the Father comes to Jesus. I see a God part and a man part there.

John 6:47 – Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

He. He that believes. If he believes he has everlasting life. If he does not, he will not.

Who is he? Well, 1 Tim 2:6 say’s – ‘Who (Jesus) gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.’ Jesus gave Himself for all (‘he’ in John 6:47)

Hebrews 2:9 – ‘But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.’

Jesus should taste death for every man (‘he’ in John 6:47)

John 3:15-16 – That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The whosever’s in these verses are going to be hard to ignore or explain away. In fact, they are the same ‘he’s’ mentioned by Christ Himself.

There are more verses supporting mans part but I will close with this…..

Romans 10:13-17 – For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Whoever calls on the Lord will be saved, but to call one must believe, and to believe one must hear the gospel. The gospel is to be preached to all, and of those who hear it, ‘whoever’ calls on the Lord will be saved.

The Scriptures clearly teach that salvation is
conditional; God draws and man must respond.

Yes, we agree on that. God can and will glorify himself no matter what our eternal situation is.

You said, “Can someone reject the Gospel? Can someone accept the Gospel?” I have said this before but perhaps you did not see it: I am not arguing that man does not make decisions, I am saying that those decisions are sovereignly decreed by God before the foundation of the world. However, this does not mean that I am not doing anything. If I thought that this fact absolved me of responsibility, I would not be discussing this with you.

Can someone reject the Gospel?

Can someone accept the Gospel?

God will be glorified by either of the two above.

God will be glorified if someone spends eternity in hell as well as eternity in heaven. Either way, God will be glorified.

Do we agree on that?