A Warning & An Open Invitation
October 10th, 2007
(By John MacArthur)
Today we will consider two final ways in which God’s love extends to the whole world. This will conclude our series on the love of God. This series was adapted from John’s book The God Who Loves published by Thomas Nelson.
Admonition
God’s universal love is revealed not only in common grace and His great compassion, but also in His admonition to repent. God is constantly warning the reprobate of their impending fate, and pleading with them to turn away from sin. Nothing demonstrates God’s love more than the various warnings throughout the pages of Scripture, urging sinners to flee from the wrath to come.
Anyone who knows anything about Scripture knows it is filled with warnings about the judgment to come, warnings about hell, and warnings about the severity of divine punishment. If God really did not love the reprobate, nothing would compel Him to warn them. He would be perfectly just to punish them for their sin and unbelief with no admonition whatsoever. But He does love and He does care and He does warn.
God evidently loves sinners enough to warn them. Sometimes the warnings of Scripture bear the marks of divine wrath. They sound severe. They reflect God’s hatred of sin. They warn of the irreversible condemnation that will befall sinners. They are unsettling, unpleasant, even terrifying.
But they are admonitions from a loving God who as we have seen weeps over the destruction of the wicked. They are necessary expressions from the heart of a compassionate Creator who takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. They are further proof that God is love.
The Gospel Offer
Finally, we see proof that God’s love extends to all in the gospel offer. We saw earlier that the gospel invitation is an offer of divine mercy. Now consider the unlimited breadth of the offer. No one is excluded from the gospel invitation. Salvation in Christ is freely and indiscriminately offered to all.
Jesus told a parable in Matthew 22:2–14 about a king who was having a marriage celebration for his son. He sent his servants to invite the wedding guests. Scripture says simply, “they were unwilling to come” (v. 3). The king sent his servants again, saying, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast” (v. 4). But even after that second invitation, the invited guests remained unwilling to come. In fact, Scripture says, “They paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them” (vv. 5–6). This was outrageous, inexcusable behavior! And the king judged them severely for it.
Then Scripture says he told his servants, “The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast” (v. 9). He opened the invitation to all comers. Jesus closes with this: “Many are called, but few are chosen” (v. 14).
The parable represents God’s dealing with the nation of Israel. They were the invited guests. But they rejected the Messiah. They spurned Him and mistreated Him and crucified Him. They wouldn’t come—as Jesus said to them:
You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life. (Jn. 5:39–40)
The gospel invites many to come who are unwilling to come. Many are called who are not chosen. The invitation to come is given indiscriminately to all. Whosoever will may come—the invitation is not issued to the elect alone.
God’s love for mankind does not stop with a warning of the judgment to come. It also invites sinners to partake of divine mercy. It offers forgiveness and mercy. Jesus said, “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your souls” (Matt. 11:28–29). And Jesus said, “The one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out” (Jn. 6:37).
It should be evident from these verses that the gospel is a free offer of Christ and His salvation to all who hear. Those who deny the free offer therefore alter the nature of the gospel itself. And those who deny that God’s love extends to all humanity obscure some of the most blessed truth in all Scripture about God and His lovingkindness.
God’s love extends to the whole world. It covers all humanity. We see it in common grace. We see it in His compassion. We see it in His admonitions to the lost. And we see it in the free offer of the gospel to all.
God is love, and His mercy is over all His works.
How does the paragraph below square with the doctrine of Election?
“The gospel invites many to come who are unwilling to come. Many are called who are not chosen. The invitation to come is given indiscriminately to all. Whosoever will may come—the invitation is not issued to the elect alone.”
In the previous discussions on Election, it seems as though Pulpit Magazine was saying only the Elect could and would be saved.
I know the subject as been “God’s love”, but a few comments from the Pulpit Magazine would be most appreciated.
One more question. I have heard many preachers say that the bible says “Whosoever will may come.” Is this phrase actually in the bible?
Thanks,
Kelvin
Kelvin, you wrote “One more question. I have heard many preachers say that the bible says “Whosoever will may come.” Is this phrase actually in the bible?”
I can find several “Whosoever will…” in a concordance but none that say exactly what you asked. There are plenty that infer whosoever will, may come e.g. Acts 2:21 & Acts 10:43; Matt 18:4; Mk 8:34 etc.
However, it seems, the real trouble you are having is with meshing predestination or the doctrine of grace with God’s universal call unto salvation. (Pulpit topics the last few days by JM). Well! welcome to the club. But, again, just because we cannot harmonize the two doctrines together in our minds does not been we ignore one doctrine over the other. Both are in the Bible, both must be taught.
Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
“It should be evident from these verses that the gospel is a free offer of Christ and His salvation to all who hear. Those who deny the free offer therefore alter the nature of the gospel itself.”
Somewhere, in parentheses, is implied “but only if you’re the elect anyway will you ‘hear’”
I’m going to continue to invite people to come to Christ, assuming they might actually respond. God certainly already knows those who are His but we don’t.
Kelvin,
You said: “In the previous discussions on Election, it seems as though Pulpit Magazine was saying only the Elect could and would be saved.”
It is true that only the elect will be saved. Let me say a couple of things to this. First, no man “can” be saved unless the Father takes the initiative and draws a person to Himself (John 6:37,44). The Bible clearly teaches that left to themselves, no man seeks God and no man would choose God. In fact, they all run away from God (Romans 3:10-12). So, God in His grace elects some to be saved, effectually calling them to Himself. They respond to the Gospel because God draws them irresistably to His Son.
Second, some who have commented to this series seem to be attempting to build a theological system that they feel is “airtight” according to their own standards. This I think is the problem with both Arminianism and hyper-Calvinism. In the quest to answer all of the questions, it is easy for us to go beyond or minimize what the Bible clearly teaches.
As John MacArthur has pointed out, the Bible clearly teaches that God invites all men to come to Him to be saved. I take Him at His word and assume that His invitation is sincere.
The Bible also teaches that sin has rendered every man incapable of responding to the Gospel.
The Bible also teaches that all who do respond savingly to the Gospel have been lovingly and graciously chosen before the foundation of the world by God (Ephesians 1:3-14).
I’ve been a pastor for 25 years and have been teaching the Bible for 35 years. I still cannot completely reconcile the twin truths of man’s responsibility and God’s sovereignty in salvation, nor am I able to answer all of the questions. But I am comfortable teaching both because I trust the Word of God. By no means do I believe that the Bible contradicts itself. But let’s face it - God did not tell us everything.
By the way, I take comfort in the fact that even Jonathan Edwards had great difficulty with the doctrine of election as a young man. He admits that at first he hated the doctrine of election! But, after much biblical study, he accepted it and then came to love the doctrine.
I would like to recommend John MacArthur’s series on the Doctrines of Grace which Grace to You broadcast a couple of weeks ago. You can find the Mp3 series here: http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Grace_to_You/archives.asp
Blessings to you Kelvin, as you study God’s Word.
Steve Lamm
Hi Kelvin
You asked: How does the paragraph below square with the doctrine of Election?
“The gospel invites many to come who are unwilling to come. Many are called who are not chosen. The invitation to come is given indiscriminately to all. Whosoever will may come—the invitation is not issued to the elect alone.”
Perhaps Jesus’ words in John 6:37 will help. There He says, “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”
The second half of the verse “the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out” is a general call by Christ to the crowds. He is, in essence, saying, “If you come to Me I will not reject you.” Or put another way: “Whosoever will may come.”
Jesus said this to a crowd that, for the most part, would reject Him (v. 66). Most within the crowd were not elect. Yet, the Lord offered Himself to all of them; promising that if they would come to Him in faith, He would gladly receive them. This, then, points to the human responsibility side of conversion.
But notice how Jesus prefaced His statement. The first part of the verse clearly underscores the fact that divine sovereignty is also at play. “All that the Father gives Me will come to me.”
It is only those whom the Father draws, who respond in saving faith to the gospel call.
Many other passages could be cited to make this point. Acts 13:48, for example, notes that after hearing Paul and Barnabas preach the gospel, “as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.” And Romans 8:30 explains that it is those who are “predestined” who respond to God’s call.
So, back to John 6:37 — When we proclaim the gospel, we can rightly say to all people, “If you are willing to come, Christ will receive you.” But, theologically, we know that only those whom God has chosen will respond in faith.
This is only natural. Fallen men are spiritually blind and spiritually dead (cf. Eph. 2:1-3). On their own, they will not seek God (Rom. 3). In fact, they are unable to do so. Unless the Spirit opens their blind eyes and imparts life to their dead hearts, they will always choose to reject the gospel.
Yet, God in His mercy, has chosen to save some (Eph. 2:4) … not because of any inherent goodness in them, but for the sake of His own glory. Paul explains this in Romans 9. Thus, it is those whom God chooses to give to the Son (John 6:37), who will come to Christ. And when they do, they will not be cast out.
John 6:37 is an especially helpful verse in evangelism. If someone says, “I want to be saved, but I don’t think I’m part of the elect” — we can respond by saying, “Jesus promised that if you embrace Him wholeheartedly in faith, He will not refuse you. Moreover, the fact that you are willing to come indicates that God is at work in your heart. And if He is doing a saving work in your heart, you are part of the elect.”
Well, much more could be said on this topic, but I hope this is helpful. Thanks for your questions.
- NB
Steven,
Great points. Thanks for your comment.
- NB
Thanks Steve for your gracious comments.
This site is proving to be a most valuable tool to me.
It is thrilling to be able to ask questions and get answers from men who really love the Lord, even if the answer is “I don’t know.”
I have thanked the Lord so many times for Grace Church and John MacArthur for the fact that I have learned so much from you and you guys are clear across the country
I know that it is best to be clear and serious about God’s Word because sometimes we don’t know the lives that we are touching.
Thanks again for the commentary and the Mp3 reference,
Kelvin
It is interesting how the Arminians and the Calvinists really have a lot in common. The Arminians believe that man choses to be saved (which from man’s perspective really is what happens), and the Calvinists believe that God irresistably calls man to be saved. From our standpoint, we chose to follow Christ, and it seems that we made this decision apart from any influence by the Holy Spirit. But the bible tells us that even though we did make a decision, The Holy Spirit was at work in our hearts bringing us to that point.
As Nate said earlier, without the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives, we are spiritually unable to make any decision at all other than the decision to sin.
With this view, GOD IS SOOOOOO MERCIFUL AND LOVING!! We have done absolutely nothing to deserve His salvation. In fact we are so thoroughly soaked in sin that we cannot even get out of it by ourselves.
Eph. 2:1-9 tells us just exactly the situation we were in. Even we were DEAD in sin fulfilling the desires of the flesh, and were BY NATURE the children of wrath. BUT GOD! Even though we were in this condition, BUT GOD. AMAZING! It is ALL of Him. Praise Him for His undeserved love for us sinful creatures.
In Christ,
Daniel Chaney
Basically, it boils down to two beliefs. One or the other:
FAITH then REGENERATION (Born again)
or
REGENERATION (born again) the FAITH
I can’t help myself repeating RC Sproul.
)
That should say : REGENERATION (born again) “then” FAITH
my bad.
Great articles dealing with the tougher parts of Scripture. Like you Kelvin I have learned so much from this site and Grace to You. The combination was a huge reason I left the Wor of Faith movement. It is amazing how many people/churches teach Arminian doctrines without haveing scripture as the foundation. Dead men can’t make ANY decisions. Only from the Lord is it possible so all glory goes to Him. I do disagree with the Arminian/Calvinist having lots in common, besides access to the scriptures. Like Daniel said the Arminians still want to take credit for their decision and their regeneration even if all of scripture testifies against it. Bottom line is man has NO choice (dead men; see above) and any regeneration is solely the Holy Spirit. The fact men want any credit for it shows the fallen/sinful pride that caused humbling by the Lord so many times. I pray that all Arminians will learn from articles such as this and turn to the true sovereign Lord. Thanks again Pulpit!
Randy are you starting a chicken or the egg talk?
Chicken
Dave,
Amen to your post. Ultimately pride is what gets in the Armenian’s way of accepting this doctrine. They just can’t seem to get around the fact that God chose us, we didn’t choose Him. The similarity between Armenians and Calvinists, that I mentioned earlier, is that for both, every decision we make appears to be genuinely our decision. But the difference is that Calvinists know that “dead” men don’t make ANY decisions! A major problem with believing that man makes the ultimate decision to accept or reject Christ, is that it leads directly to the belief that man can make His own decisions after He is saved. I believe that before I was saved I was a spiritually dead slave to sin, and after I was saved I became a slave to God. If Armenians believe that man has enough goodness in and of himself to accept Christ before he is saved (and therefore isn’t really a SLAVE to sin), then after they are saved they will tend to not want to be SLAVES of Christ.
In the church I attend the armenian side of God’s sovereignty in salvation is all that I hear from comments expressed in Sunday school and other Bible study situations. The comments surround “free will”, God don’t want any robots, we have “free choice”, and other such comments. The leaders don’t confront, so I assume unity in the church is what they seek. The pastor and elders do believe in God’s sovereignty in election but seem to preach around it. Many times I have wanted to comment but have not to avoid confrontation and therefore “unity” in the church. Unity I have heard is not abscense of conflict, but unity is unity of doctrine. Am I correct and any ideas on the best way to handle a majority of Armenians in our church? I’m not an elder or pastor.
Bob,
Let me speak as a Pastor. The leaders have the major responsibility to see to it that all the teachers in a congregation are teaching sound, biblical doctrine (Titus 1:9). So, since you are not an elder, you do need to respect their responsibility and you should humbly encourage them to check things out, evaluate them, and then correct those who are not being biblical. This is what it means to be an “overseer.” You might what to approach them from I Tim. 3 and Titus 1. You do have a right and responsibility as a member to support them but also keep them accountable. The key thing is how you approach them. Let them know that you support and respect them.
If you’re attending a Bible study and you believe a passage has been misinterpreted, you should be able to humbly challenge that interpretation and then offer what you think is the correct one. Of course, you’re dealing with someone’s ego at that point, so be careful. Do this in private.
You said: “The comments surround “free will”, God don’t want any robots, we have “free choice”, and other such comments.”
The major problem with their argument is that they assume a definition of “free will” which is not biblical nor does it hold water. Let me offer you an argument which I learned from a very good theologian which usually makes people stop and think.
Most believers define “free will” as the ability to choose to do good or bad; to choose God or not choose God; to obey God or not obey God. But is this really correct? Consider this:
Does God have free will? The Bible says that God is totally free (Dan 4:35). He is “sovereign” and free to do whatever He chooses to do. Now, can God sin or commit evil? All Christians would say this is a preposterous and unbiblical notion. They are correct. So, if God cannot choose to do evil, then does this mean He is not free? Is God a “robot” because He cannot choose to sin or commit evil? Of course not! God acts according to His nature which is holy, righteous and good (Ps. 119:78; Ps. 145: 17).
Obviously, the typical definition of free will is flawed.
Jonathan Edwards and many others including Calvin and Luther defined “free will” as the ability to do the right and to obey God! The only way a sinner, who is enslaved to sin, can become truly free and be enabled to obey God is through redemption.
So, the notion that lost sinners can freely to choose between good and evil is not only flawed definitionally, it is unbiblical. Lost sinners choose according to their nature and their nature is corrupted by sin (Genesis 8:21; Romans 3:10-18).
Can I suggest one more thing to you. Don’t ride this issue too much otherwise your church leaders and teachers will be sorry to see you show up! Be gracious and patient. Try speaking personally with people and give them some short, powerful reading on the subject and see how they react. If you stick with biblical arguments, you’ll probably get further with the teachers.
Monergism.com is a great place to find material supporting the doctrines of grace.
Blessings to you brother.
Steve Lamm
“… after they are saved they will tend to not want to be SLAVES of Christ.”
Really?? Is there a scripture verse for that? I know that Paul talks about those who were slaves of sin becomming slaves of righteousness. And I know that the redeemed are considered joint-heirs with Christ. But - slaves of Christ?
Richard,
The best thing that I have read, on Christians being slaves of Christ, is John MacArthur’s sermon. If you will look in the September archives and pull up, “Slaves of Christ” you can click the link that says “powerful sermon” (or something like that). It would definitly be worth your time to read it.
In Christ,
Daniel Chaney
Brother Richard,
May I respond to your query?
“I know that Paul talks about those who were slaves of sin becomming slaves of righteousness. And I know that the redeemed are considered joint-heirs with Christ. But - slaves of Christ?”
Paul calls himself a slave of Christ (Romans 1:1; Galatians 1:10; Titus 1:1), his fellow believers as slaves of Christ (2 Corinthians 4:5; Philippians 1:1). James (James 1:1), Peter (2 Peter 1:1), Jude (Jude 1), and John (Revelation 1:1) did the same. The word often translated bond-servant, or servant, is also (I think more properly) translated slave.
A wonderful work which encouraged me to embrace this “liberating” truth is the book by Murray Harris, “Slave of Christ: A New Testament Metaphor for Total Devotion to Christ”. I commend it to you for its research and most importantly its implications for Christian living. I was reading this when I was preparing for our church’s mission work to a province. I was deeply encouraged by a deepened understanding of Paul’s delight in counting himself owned and led by Christ. What a Master we have in Jesus!
A fellow slave in Christ,
Oscar Villa
What about people who at one time professed to be saved and loved the Lord, now uses election as an excuse to turn from sound doctrine . They say. if I am elect I have nothing to worry about, grace will compell me, if I not elect when there is nothing I can do about it. This person lived a godly life at one time. As much as it pains me I just assume this person was never saved, what do you think?
Ruth,
No one can use the doctrine of election as an excuse to turn from sound doctrine. This doctrine does not take responsibility off man and put it on God. The doctrine of election merely shows us the bigger picture of God’s saving work. We make choices every day to do good or evil. When evangelizing, we ask people to accept Christ as their personal savior. We really do make choices. However, to say that we have the ULTIMATE choice to accept Christ, is stretching it a bit too far. Far from putting all the responsibility for our sin on God, the doctrine of election simply shows us the bigger picture that salvation is ALL of God’s grace.
If someone who at one time professed to be saved and love the Lord, now turns from Him; this is indeed evidence that this man was not saved in the first place. 1Jo 2:19 says, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.”
Wayne,
First of all, none of the verses that you mentioned say that Christ died for everyone; rather they all say that God DESIRES that all be saved. But since we both agree that not all will be saved, we must also both agree that there must be something that God wants more. I believe that He desires His own glory, what do you believe?
You said, “The Scriptures clearly teach that salvation is conditional, and that every person is able to meet those conditions. If salvation is not conditional, why did God state conditions? If not everyone can meet the conditions, why did God insist that they be preached to everyone?”
Whether my view is correct or your view is correct, we both believe in limited atonement. You claim to not believe it, but upon further examination you will see how you really do. Here is a quote by a man who puts it better than I could.
“If the work of Christ is finished… completely finished… then there can be no time for the choice of “responding.” If Jesus only died to make salvation potential and not actual, the work is only started at the cross and is finished at the believer’s “acceptance of the gift” or “activation of the potential.” The Armenian atonement tries to be unlimited in its extent. However, in doing so, it necessarily limits its application. If Jesus only makes salvation possible at the cross, the sinner himself limits the atonement when he refuses Christ. No matter what way you look at it, the atonement is limited; it’s just a matter of who limits it: God, before the foundation of the world, or the sinner after a Gospel presentation.”
Daniel,
Can someone reject the Gospel?
Can someone accept the Gospel?
God will be glorified by either of the two above.
God will be glorified if someone spends eternity in hell as well as eternity in heaven. Either way, God will be glorified.
Do we agree on that?
Wayne,
Yes, we agree on that. God can and will glorify himself no matter what our eternal situation is.
You said, “Can someone reject the Gospel? Can someone accept the Gospel?” I have said this before but perhaps you did not see it: I am not arguing that man does not make decisions, I am saying that those decisions are sovereignly decreed by God before the foundation of the world. However, this does not mean that I am not doing anything. If I thought that this fact absolved me of responsibility, I would not be discussing this with you.
Daniel,
We may have to agree to disagree.
I know this; man cannot come to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:37, 39, 44). How does this happen? Is it the sovereign work of God alone or does man have a part in it?
Look what Jesus say’s in John 6:40 - And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)
You have to ignore ‘every one’ in that verse (or explain it away).
Look at what Jesus say’s in John 6:45 - It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Again, ‘every man’ is going to hard to ignore and explain away. Every man that ‘hears’ the Word of God AND learns of the Father comes to Jesus. I see a God part and a man part there.
John 6:47 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
He. He that believes. If he believes he has everlasting life. If he does not, he will not.
Who is he? Well, 1 Tim 2:6 say’s – ‘Who (Jesus) gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.’ Jesus gave Himself for all (‘he’ in John 6:47)
Hebrews 2:9 – ‘But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.’
Jesus should taste death for every man (‘he’ in John 6:47)
John 3:15-16 - That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The whosever’s in these verses are going to be hard to ignore or explain away. In fact, they are the same ‘he’s’ mentioned by Christ Himself.
There are more verses supporting mans part but I will close with this…..
Romans 10:13-17 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Whoever calls on the Lord will be saved, but to call one must believe, and to believe one must hear the gospel. The gospel is to be preached to all, and of those who hear it, ‘whoever’ calls on the Lord will be saved.
The Scriptures clearly teach that salvation is
conditional; God draws and man must respond.
Wayne,
You said, “Look what Jesus say’s in John 6:40 - And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV) You have to ignore ‘every one’ in that verse (or explain it away).”
First, I want you to know that I would not hold to this view if I thought that certain verses explicitly said the opposite. I would never hold to a view that is not supported with scripture. I would never ignore or “explain away” certain verses.
I believe that “EVERYONE” that believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. I believe that whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. I never said that I didn’t believe this. I just believe that God causes them to believe on Himself. Keep in mind that all of these verses are written to men. Man’s perspective of salvation is that I chose to follow Christ. Right now, I am choosing to type this post. However, since other verses say that salvation is all of God and none of man, we must see that God’s perspective of salvation is quite different from ours.
You said, “I know this; man cannot come to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:37, 39, 44). How does this happen? Is it the sovereign work of God alone or does man have a part in it?”
I believe that it is the sovereign work of God alone. Romans 9:10-24 is Paul’s view of this subject. Verse 16 is specifically what I would like you to consider: “So then it (God’s choosing/salvation/election) is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” If God draws a man to Himself, as you have stated, then salvation is the sovereign work of God alone, because man’s “part in it” is brought about by God.
Daniel,
Obviously I seem to be somewhere in the middle of what a full blown Calvinist believes and what a full blown Armenian believes.
What is interesting to me is this statement you made……
‘First, I want you to know that I would not hold to this view if I thought that certain verses explicitly said the opposite. I would never hold to a view that is not supported with scripture. I would never ignore or “explain away” certain verses.’
Obviously you acknowledge that there are verses that say the opposite of the view you’re taking. Why? Because there are verses that say the opposite (in your view) of what I’m trying to show you, you must agree that there are verses that say the opposite of what you’re trying to show me.
In other words, you ‘chose’ (LOL) to follow some verses of Scripture instead of others.
I’m saying that these Scriptures work in harmony of each other and do not contradict. I see a God part and a man part.
Here’s where it can get really crazy……If the only way to Christ is if the Father draws him, what happens (or can it happen) if that person rejects the Gospel? If they are drawn by the Father, are they the elect as you see them? If they reject the Gospel, does that mean they were not the elect?
Listen, in the end, you are my brother in Christ and because of this I love you as a brother. The good news for either one of us is that we were drawn by the Father to repent of our sins and place our trust in Christ to save us. For that, I am forever indebted to my Lord and Savior. I am a bondservant to Him. I was a slave to sin and now I am a slave to Christ. I was lost and now I’m found.
I can’t wait to see my Lord and cast down any crowns I may have on that day!!
In Him,
Wayne
Wayne,
You said, “Obviously you acknowledge that there are verses that say the opposite of the view you’re taking.”
No, I said the opposite of that. I believe what I believe, because there are no verses that say the opposite. However, Paul’s view in Romans 9:10-24 does contradict your view. Do I believe that people with your view can be saved? Absolutely! Do I believe that both views are correct? In a sense they are. Your view is the correct view in that your view describes man’s perspective of salvation. Do I believe that there are verses that support it? Yes, but those verses do not say that man has the ability (in and of himself) to convert to a view which 1 Corinthians 2:14 says that he is not even able to understand. If I were witnessing to someone, I would ask him to accept Christ. Am I admitting by this that I believe that man has this ability by himself? No, I am saying that that fact that he accepts Christ, in itself, is proof that the Holy Spirit was drawing him.
This leads me to another statement you made: “If they are drawn by the Father, are they the elect as you see them? If they reject the Gospel, does that mean they were not the elect?”
Yes. 1Th 1:4-6 says, “Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:”
Here we see that the apostles knew that the Thessalonians were the elect because they accepted Christ. Had they not accepted Him, the apostles would have known that they were not the elect. “They accepted because they were elect”, not “they were elect because they accepted.”
You said, “In other words, you ‘chose’ (LOL) to follow some verses of Scripture instead of others.”
I “Choose” to follow all of scripture. Does this mean that God is not in control of my decisions? No
When you thank God for your salvation, do you also put in a good word for yourself and your “good decision”?
The term “Irresistable Grace” is subject to misunderstanding since it SEEMS to imply that people do not make a voluntary, willing choice in responding to the gospel-a wrong idea. Irresistable Grace refers to the fact that God effectively calls people and also gives them regeneration, both actions guarantee that we will respond in saving faith. It indicates that God’s work reaches into our hearts to bring about a response that is absolutely certain-even though we respond voluntarily.
Daniel,
Of course I don’t put in a good word for myself and my good decision when I thank God for my salvation; I didn’t do anything myself to earn salvation (lest I should boast); unless you count responding to the Gospel that was preached to me the day I was saved (And I know you don’t).
I disagree with your statement ‘It indicates that God’s work reaches into our hearts to bring about a response that is absolutely certain-even though we respond voluntarily.’
If God is bringing about a response, and the response is what brings about salvation, it wasn’t voluntary on my part.
Remember –
1 Tim 2:6 ‘Who (Jesus) gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.’
Hebrews 2:9 – ‘But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.’
Christ died for all men, tasted death for every man. Every man who hears the Gospel has an opportunity to respond; positively or negatively. If the person repents and trusts in Christ to save him, he is now the elect.
Whosoever… All….Every man….Anyone….He that….(Scripture ref’s already provided)
Those words above are not for the elect as you define elect, they are for every one.
Wayne,
Read Acts 13. When you get to verse 48, tell me what you think.
Also read: 2 Thes. 2:13, Rom. 8:28-30, Eph. 2:1-10, Eph. 1:4-6,11, 2 Tim. 1:9, John 13:18.
What do you think that “before the foundation of the world”, “Predestined”, “from the beginnig”, and “before ordained” mean, if not just that?
Daniel,
Thanks for all the reading material, but I have read it many times with a different interpretation than you.
I believe that the elect is the body of believers. The biblical doctrine of election/predestination is where God chose a body or group of people to be saved, but each individual has the opportunity to respond (choose) whether or not to be included in that body.
Consider this illustration……
I view biblical election as an elevator called “believers in Christ” that is predestined to go up. After hearing the Gospel a person chooses whether or not to get on the elevator. God, in His infinite wisdom, already knows who will and won’t get on that elevator and therefore has foreknowledge.
Daniel, we just view this differently. We can both keep pointing to various Scriptures to validate our belief, but it really comes down to this; one of us is wrong and we are going to point the finger at the other and say ‘he is wrong’. We can’t both be right.
Does this mean that either one of us is lost? No. I believe that we can both be saved (as I think you do too) no matter which view we take.
As long as there will be this debate of election and predestination we need to always be careful not to be seen by the world as fighting among ourselves. As long as the debate is in the format we have used here (polite and courteous) the debate is healthy. I have seen many debates on this subject get ugly and viscous. When this happens non-believers see the believers as a divided and hostile group that they would never consider listening to.
Thanks for the discussion.
Wayne
Wayne,
Thanks for your gracious response. I also have seen this type of debate get a little too carried away. I think people tend to forget that, in this debate, they are usually dealing with brothers and sisters in Christ.
You said, “The biblical doctrine of election/predestination is where God chose a body or group of people to be saved…but each individual has the opportunity to respond (choose) whether or not to be included in that body.”
These statements are in contradiction. Either God chose or man chose. If God chose first, as you said in your first section, then there is no choice for man to make, unless God’s choice is not powerfull enough. Are you saying that God needs our permission to bring us to Himself. As you have admitted, God chose a body of believers to be saved. This is what Calvinists call election; think of the very name “election”. It is done previously to the actual salvation, in fact, before the foundation of the world. If this is true, then is it certain that those that God has chosen will come to Him?
Appreciate your comments
Your brother in Christ,
Daniel Chaney