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	<title>Comments on: God&#8217;s Love for Those Never Saved</title>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-those-never-saved/comment-page-2/#comment-70438</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2007 23:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-the-non-elect-part-2/#comment-70438</guid>
		<description>donsands, 

Regarding John 17:23 I find that a great many of today&#039;s evangelicals are hesitant to think that it does mean the same love with which He loved Jesus. Because we&#039;re so on guard against humanism (and rightly so) we&#039;re been conditioned to avoid thinking that God could love us as much as the Father has loved Christ from all eternity. The strongest argument from theology is that if God loved us that much, He would be an idolater against Himself since only God is worthy of such infinite and supreme love.  The argument is sound but it is not cogent since it ignores our union with Christ. In Greek, the word used for &quot;as&quot; in John 17:23 means &quot;just as,&quot; in other words, exactly as. Inasmuch as (Strongs Lexicon). The late Dr. James M. Boice said it is the strongest word to use in the context. Yes, God does love His elect AS MUCH as He loves Jesus. This verse does not just mean in like manner; it means in exact manner. And we see the same thing --- with the same word --- in John 15:9 of Jesus&#039; love to us, as well. Such a view is not heresy; it was found in the old preachers. It&#039;s modern preaching that has largely ignored this.

Look up the following resources for some evidence:

* Charles Spurgeon&#039;s sermon on John 17:26 (&quot;Love and I&quot;—A Mystery)
* Dr. James Boice&#039;s expository sermon on John 17:23 from the Bible Study Hour
* Dr. Jack MacArthur Sr. (Dr. John&#039;s father)&#039;s sermons on John 15 and 17
* H.A. Ironside&#039;s commentary on the Gospel of John
* Martyn Lloyd-Jones&#039; sermon &quot;In the Beloved,&quot; taken from his book exposition of Ephesians 1 (God&#039;s Ultimate Purpose)
* The John 17:26 study note from the 1599 Geneva Study Bible
* John Calvin&#039;s commentary on John 17
* Puritan Thomas Goodwin&#039;s sermon &quot;The Riches of God&#039;s Love to His Elect&quot;


This is semi-speculative, but I think the reason God can love and delight in us infinitely much is for His Son&#039;s sake, because we are united to --- betrothed to --- His eternal, beloved Son. Therefore we are beloved, too. Everything God has ever done, He&#039;s done it for Jesus. Everything Jesus has ever done, He&#039;s done it for the Father. We need to view verses like &quot;for my own sake&quot; and &quot;for my glory&quot; in the context of the Trinity and the members of the Godhead acting to honor not to much themselves individually but rather each other. This retains God-centeredness and yet shows us how and why God can and does love, cherish and value (because we love what we value; cf. Matthew 6:21) us in Christ and for His sake, as much as He does Christ Himself. There is no greater love in the universe than this. Christ gets it inherently, and we as a byproduct, but we get it nonetheless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>donsands, </p>
<p>Regarding John 17:23 I find that a great many of today&#8217;s evangelicals are hesitant to think that it does mean the same love with which He loved Jesus. Because we&#8217;re so on guard against humanism (and rightly so) we&#8217;re been conditioned to avoid thinking that God could love us as much as the Father has loved Christ from all eternity. The strongest argument from theology is that if God loved us that much, He would be an idolater against Himself since only God is worthy of such infinite and supreme love.  The argument is sound but it is not cogent since it ignores our union with Christ. In Greek, the word used for &#8220;as&#8221; in John 17:23 means &#8220;just as,&#8221; in other words, exactly as. Inasmuch as (Strongs Lexicon). The late Dr. James M. Boice said it is the strongest word to use in the context. Yes, God does love His elect AS MUCH as He loves Jesus. This verse does not just mean in like manner; it means in exact manner. And we see the same thing &#8212; with the same word &#8212; in John 15:9 of Jesus&#8217; love to us, as well. Such a view is not heresy; it was found in the old preachers. It&#8217;s modern preaching that has largely ignored this.</p>
<p>Look up the following resources for some evidence:</p>
<p>* Charles Spurgeon&#8217;s sermon on John 17:26 (&#8220;Love and I&#8221;—A Mystery)<br />
* Dr. James Boice&#8217;s expository sermon on John 17:23 from the Bible Study Hour<br />
* Dr. Jack MacArthur Sr. (Dr. John&#8217;s father)&#8217;s sermons on John 15 and 17<br />
* H.A. Ironside&#8217;s commentary on the Gospel of John<br />
* Martyn Lloyd-Jones&#8217; sermon &#8220;In the Beloved,&#8221; taken from his book exposition of Ephesians 1 (God&#8217;s Ultimate Purpose)<br />
* The John 17:26 study note from the 1599 Geneva Study Bible<br />
* John Calvin&#8217;s commentary on John 17<br />
* Puritan Thomas Goodwin&#8217;s sermon &#8220;The Riches of God&#8217;s Love to His Elect&#8221;</p>
<p>This is semi-speculative, but I think the reason God can love and delight in us infinitely much is for His Son&#8217;s sake, because we are united to &#8212; betrothed to &#8212; His eternal, beloved Son. Therefore we are beloved, too. Everything God has ever done, He&#8217;s done it for Jesus. Everything Jesus has ever done, He&#8217;s done it for the Father. We need to view verses like &#8220;for my own sake&#8221; and &#8220;for my glory&#8221; in the context of the Trinity and the members of the Godhead acting to honor not to much themselves individually but rather each other. This retains God-centeredness and yet shows us how and why God can and does love, cherish and value (because we love what we value; cf. Matthew 6:21) us in Christ and for His sake, as much as He does Christ Himself. There is no greater love in the universe than this. Christ gets it inherently, and we as a byproduct, but we get it nonetheless.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Chaney</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-those-never-saved/comment-page-2/#comment-64218</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Chaney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2007 20:05:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-the-non-elect-part-2/#comment-64218</guid>
		<description>David,

You are absolutely correct to say that God sees His own glory as more important than saving everyone. But if God&#039;s glory is the reason for not saving everyone, then preserving man&#039;s free will cannot be the reason, because the two are conflicting answers and therefore cannot both be correct.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,</p>
<p>You are absolutely correct to say that God sees His own glory as more important than saving everyone. But if God&#8217;s glory is the reason for not saving everyone, then preserving man&#8217;s free will cannot be the reason, because the two are conflicting answers and therefore cannot both be correct.</p>
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		<title>By: David M.</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-those-never-saved/comment-page-2/#comment-64215</link>
		<dc:creator>David M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2007 19:08:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-the-non-elect-part-2/#comment-64215</guid>
		<description>His glory, for one. He cannot dwell with unrighteousness. I believe if man were willing, God would save everyone. He knew, however, they would not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>His glory, for one. He cannot dwell with unrighteousness. I believe if man were willing, God would save everyone. He knew, however, they would not.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Chaney</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-those-never-saved/comment-page-2/#comment-64208</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Chaney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2007 18:13:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-the-non-elect-part-2/#comment-64208</guid>
		<description>David,

So If you believe that God won&#039;t save everyone, then what do you believe that God sees as more important than saving everyone?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,</p>
<p>So If you believe that God won&#8217;t save everyone, then what do you believe that God sees as more important than saving everyone?</p>
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		<title>By: David M.</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-those-never-saved/comment-page-2/#comment-64204</link>
		<dc:creator>David M.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2007 17:45:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-the-non-elect-part-2/#comment-64204</guid>
		<description>Of course not. The Bible clearly states that the majority will be lost. I merely believe it is because &quot;they did not like to retain the knowledge of God&quot; rather than God didn&#039;t give them a shot at salvation. Even John MacArthur postulated in a book that the blinding was a strange act of mercy because, since they were rejecting what had been revealed, they would be punsihed even more severely for any additional revelation, which they also would have rejected. This satisfies the justice of God and doesn&#039;t diminish His mercy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course not. The Bible clearly states that the majority will be lost. I merely believe it is because &#8220;they did not like to retain the knowledge of God&#8221; rather than God didn&#8217;t give them a shot at salvation. Even John MacArthur postulated in a book that the blinding was a strange act of mercy because, since they were rejecting what had been revealed, they would be punsihed even more severely for any additional revelation, which they also would have rejected. This satisfies the justice of God and doesn&#8217;t diminish His mercy.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Chaney</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-those-never-saved/comment-page-2/#comment-64158</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Chaney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2007 11:33:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-the-non-elect-part-2/#comment-64158</guid>
		<description>David,

 You said, &quot;Then, even though He could, with a mere nod, save billions from eternal misery, He won’t? Come on, now…&quot; 

Do you believe that God will save everyone?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,</p>
<p> You said, &#8220;Then, even though He could, with a mere nod, save billions from eternal misery, He won’t? Come on, now…&#8221; </p>
<p>Do you believe that God will save everyone?</p>
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		<title>By: Kathy</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-those-never-saved/comment-page-2/#comment-63898</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2007 14:58:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-the-non-elect-part-2/#comment-63898</guid>
		<description>What Did Luther Believe About Predestination?
Those who would like to know the truth about this, can find it on the website at Our Reedemer Lutheran Church:
http://www.orlutheran.com/html/martin_luther.html
Don&#039;t just take peoples&#039; statements about it as factual, read it for yourself in :&quot;What did Luther believe about Predestination?- His Final Word On The Subject.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Did Luther Believe About Predestination?<br />
Those who would like to know the truth about this, can find it on the website at Our Reedemer Lutheran Church:<br />
<a href="http://www.orlutheran.com/html/martin_luther.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.orlutheran.com/html/martin_luther.html</a><br />
Don&#8217;t just take peoples&#8217; statements about it as factual, read it for yourself in :&#8221;What did Luther believe about Predestination?- His Final Word On The Subject.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jerry M</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-those-never-saved/comment-page-2/#comment-63694</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 12:40:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-the-non-elect-part-2/#comment-63694</guid>
		<description>You have to remember God is a complex being with more than one attribute.  Many people do not like the idea of &#039;hell&#039; - but from a certain direction it is one of the most logical and compelling positions of the Christian faith.  It is in part the answer to the philosopher&#039;s so called &#039;problem of evil&#039;.  What is God&#039;s relationship to the evil of this world?  Quite simply - He hates wickedness [Prov. 6:16-19] and will punish the wicked.  The sinner does not get away with His sin.  There is justice in this wicked world after all.  All stand before the bar of God. [Heb. 9:27]  

I think the grandness of this position is almost entirely lost when we try to send infants to hell.  An Arminian jibe at some of the high Calvininsts in Wales was to mock, &#039;the streets of hell are paved with the heads of infants.&#039;  We shouldn&#039;t really be thinking of infants in hell - we should be thinking of child murderers standing before God and being sentenced to hell.  We should be thinking of the immoral, murderers, the liars, the idolaters being sent to hell [Rev. 21:8].  You won&#039;t find a verse in Scripture where the inhabitants of hell are portrayed to be infants who committed no act of sin of their own.  Let&#039;s paint the picture accurately before we fault God for being less than full of compassion.  He also is just and that brings some sanity into a world filled with Virginia Tech shooters, Hitler&#039;s, O.J. Simpson&#039;s, and child abductors.  

And yes - there will be some murderers in heaven - who by the grace of God came to see their sin and turn from it - embracing the Savior.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have to remember God is a complex being with more than one attribute.  Many people do not like the idea of &#8216;hell&#8217; &#8211; but from a certain direction it is one of the most logical and compelling positions of the Christian faith.  It is in part the answer to the philosopher&#8217;s so called &#8216;problem of evil&#8217;.  What is God&#8217;s relationship to the evil of this world?  Quite simply &#8211; He hates wickedness [Prov. 6:16-19] and will punish the wicked.  The sinner does not get away with His sin.  There is justice in this wicked world after all.  All stand before the bar of God. [Heb. 9:27]  </p>
<p>I think the grandness of this position is almost entirely lost when we try to send infants to hell.  An Arminian jibe at some of the high Calvininsts in Wales was to mock, &#8216;the streets of hell are paved with the heads of infants.&#8217;  We shouldn&#8217;t really be thinking of infants in hell &#8211; we should be thinking of child murderers standing before God and being sentenced to hell.  We should be thinking of the immoral, murderers, the liars, the idolaters being sent to hell [Rev. 21:8].  You won&#8217;t find a verse in Scripture where the inhabitants of hell are portrayed to be infants who committed no act of sin of their own.  Let&#8217;s paint the picture accurately before we fault God for being less than full of compassion.  He also is just and that brings some sanity into a world filled with Virginia Tech shooters, Hitler&#8217;s, O.J. Simpson&#8217;s, and child abductors.  </p>
<p>And yes &#8211; there will be some murderers in heaven &#8211; who by the grace of God came to see their sin and turn from it &#8211; embracing the Savior.</p>
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		<title>By: NWProdigal</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-those-never-saved/comment-page-2/#comment-63627</link>
		<dc:creator>NWProdigal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 05:20:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-the-non-elect-part-2/#comment-63627</guid>
		<description>David, You said:

&quot;Then, even though He could, with a mere nod, save billions from eternal misery, He won’t? Come on, now…&quot;

God CAN&#039;T or He wouldn&#039;t be God...he&#039;d be just like you, or me. And we aren&#039;t God, not by a very long shot. God hates sin, has provided a way for all to escape the penalty, but knows most will never be able to accept it and elects those who will.

God does this because He is outside of the illusion of time and space that we are subject to and influenced by. We kill a bug without thinking about whether it could possibly be convinced to not come into our house or car. We know it cannot help itself; it will do what it&#039;s natural for it to do. Same with people. Some are incapable of loving God because of something and refuse to let that go. I like how C.S.Lewis puts it: &quot;Hell is locked from the inside.&quot; Some would rather go there than ever acknowledge God and follow His escape route.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, You said:</p>
<p>&#8220;Then, even though He could, with a mere nod, save billions from eternal misery, He won’t? Come on, now…&#8221;</p>
<p>God CAN&#8217;T or He wouldn&#8217;t be God&#8230;he&#8217;d be just like you, or me. And we aren&#8217;t God, not by a very long shot. God hates sin, has provided a way for all to escape the penalty, but knows most will never be able to accept it and elects those who will.</p>
<p>God does this because He is outside of the illusion of time and space that we are subject to and influenced by. We kill a bug without thinking about whether it could possibly be convinced to not come into our house or car. We know it cannot help itself; it will do what it&#8217;s natural for it to do. Same with people. Some are incapable of loving God because of something and refuse to let that go. I like how C.S.Lewis puts it: &#8220;Hell is locked from the inside.&#8221; Some would rather go there than ever acknowledge God and follow His escape route.</p>
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		<title>By: donsands</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-those-never-saved/comment-page-2/#comment-63607</link>
		<dc:creator>donsands</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 04:22:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/10/04/gods-love-for-the-non-elect-part-2/#comment-63607</guid>
		<description>&quot;Come on, now…&quot;

My whole point in my comments, which I guess you missed, is why God would bother to save anyone. Especially me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Come on, now…&#8221;</p>
<p>My whole point in my comments, which I guess you missed, is why God would bother to save anyone. Especially me.</p>
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