God’s Love for Those Never Saved
October 4th, 2007
(By John MacArthur)
Note: This is a continuation from yesterday’s post. This two-part series was adapted from The God Who Loves, published by Thomas Nelson.
Yesterday we ended by looking at the Rich Young Ruler in Mark 10. But that’s not the only Scripture that speaks of God’s love for those who turn away from Him. In Isaiah 63:7–9 the prophet describes God’s demeanor toward the nation of Israel:
“I shall make mention of the lovingkindnesses of the Lord, the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord has granted us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which He has granted them according to His compassion, and according to the multitude of His lovingkindnesses. For He said, ‘Surely, they are My people, Sons who will not deal falsely.’ So He became their Savior. In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; in His love and in His mercy He redeemed them; and He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.”
Someone might say, Yes, but that talks about God’s redemptive love for His elect alone. No, this speaks of a love that spread over the entire nation of Israel. God “became their Savior” in the sense that He redeemed the entire nation from Egypt. He suffered when they suffered. He sustained them “all the days of old.” This speaks not of an eternal salvation, but of a temporal relationship with an earthly nation. How do we know? Look at verse 10: “But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them.”
That is an amazing statement! Here we see God defined as the Savior, the lover, the redeemer of a people who make themselves His enemies. They rebel against Him. They grieve His Holy Spirit. They choose a life of sin.
Now notice verse 17: “Why, O Lord, dost Thou cause us to stray from Thy ways, and harden our heart from fearing Thee?” That speaks of God’s judicial hardening of the disobedient nation. He actually hardened the hearts of those whom He loved and redeemed out of Egypt.
Isaiah 64:5 includes these shocking words: “Thou wast angry, for we sinned, we continued in them a long time; and shall we be saved?”
How can God be Savior to those who will not be saved? Yet these are clearly unconverted people. Look at verses 6–7, which begins with a familiar passage:
For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; and all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. And there is no one who calls on Thy name, who arouses himself to take hold of Thee; for Thou hast hidden Thy face from us, and hast delivered us into the power of our iniquities.
These are clearly unconverted, unbelieving people. In what sense can God call Himself their Savior?
Here is the sense of it: God revealed Himself as Savior. He manifested His love to the nation. “In all their affliction He was afflicted” (63:9). He poured out His goodness, and lovingkindness and mercy on the nation. And that divine forbearance and longsuffering should have moved them to repentance (Rom. 2:4). But instead they responded with unbelief, and their hearts were hardened.
Isaiah 65 takes it still further:
I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, “Here am I, here am I,” To a nation which did not call on My name. I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts. (vv.1–2)
In other words, God turned away from these rebellious people, consigned them to their own idolatry, and chose a people for Himself from among other nations.
Isaiah reveals the shocking blasphemy of those from whom God has turned away. They considered themselves holier than God (v. 5); they continually provoked Him to His face (v. 3), defiling themselves (v. 4) and scorning God for idols (v. 7). God judged them with the utmost severity, because their hostility to Him was great, and their rejection of Him was final.
Yet these were people on whom God had showered love and goodness! He even called Himself their Savior.
In a similar sense Jesus is called “Savior of the world” (Jn. 4:42; 1 Jn. 4:14). Paul wrote, “We have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers” (1 Tim. 4:10). The point is not that He actually saves the whole world (for that would be universalism, and Scripture clearly teaches that not all will be saved). The point is that He is the only Savior to whom anyone in the world can turn for forgiveness and eternal life—and therefore, all are urged to embrace Him as Savior. Jesus Christ is proffered to the world as Savior. In setting forth His own Son as Savior of the world, God displays the same kind of love to the whole world that was manifest in the Old Testament to the rebellious Israelites. It is a sincere, tender-hearted, compassionate love that offers mercy and forgiveness.
“He is the only Savior to whom anyone in the world can turn for forgiveness and eternal life”
God set His love upon Abraham. Abraham became God’s friend. Why? Because God first loved him, and so Abraham loved God. And Abraham believed God, and obeyed God.
And His natural descendants are loved by God for Abraham’s sake. Though not all of his descendants are geunine children of the promise. In fact they are children of the devil, because they believe they are good because they are descendants. And yet Jesus said He could raise up children from stones.
Those who are genuine children of the promise are loved by God, and are considered friends of God, as Abraham was. This love is an eternal love; one that began before the world, and will last throughout all eternity.
Humbling.
Sorry, but I’m still not getting this. And donsands that was lovely but it didn’t help in the fact that how can God love those He never saves.
Even though God is doing the hardening he still loves them? Okay, fine. I think of Pharaoh here. Did God eventually love Pharaoh? Or is it that God does His hardening and loves them because He will eventually save them?
“how can God love those He never saves.”
He loves them, but it’s not an eternal love.
His eternal love saves.
The love hate relationship of God with the non-elect is a mystery to me.
As far as I can take it is that the Lord says the Father loves His enemies, and so we are to love them.
And yet this love is not an everlasting love. Jer. 31:3 A love that was upon the elect from eternity past.
And all this is for the glory of His grace and His name.
Here’s a thought. What good does it do a person in Hell for God to love them there? I suppose God does have a love for the unsaved on earth in that He provides for everything and sustains them for His purpose, but after that they go to judgment and on to Hell forever. And it is at this point that I think that God no longer loves them.
I am still confused. If Jesus loved the rich young man, does it not follow that he is one of the elect? Why then did he walk away?
” And it is at this point that I think that God no longer loves them. ”
I agree with this, I think. I know that at the Judgement if not for God’s grace, that I would be receiving justice from a holy Lord, whose mercy was better than life, which I despised and yet loved my sins, and so I would not expect a Lord of the universe to love me, but surely to despise me would have to be logical.
“A time to love, and a time to hate”. Ecc. 3:8
“.. for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are rebels.” Hosea 9:15
Discussing these truths should help us see God’s love for His Church with more humility, and should compel us to pray for the lost, and to speak the truth in love to them.
There are times when we get into these discussions of God’s love for the non-elect and the sovereignty of God vs. man’s responsibility that I wonder if we need to take a lesson from Job. Job questioned God about his actions toward him without knowledge of what was happening in the greater spiritual realm. God responded by asking him; “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding” (Job 38:4). We are allowed in Job’s case to see the posturing between God and Satan that was actually behind the events in Job’s life he could not explain (and interesting never did explain to Job).
Similarly, I have wondered if there are events in the greater spiritual battle that would affect the way God deals with sinful men that we are not able to understand because of lack of complete revelation. Revelation that God has not chosen to reveal to us. Let me speculate if I may.
Just as in the case of Job, Satan may be confronting God saying “you are not fair, if you would:
• Tell men exactly what is require of them for salvation then they would be able to save themselves from their sin. Therefore, God gives the law, but dead men could keep the law.
• Tell men that you have providing a Savior to save them from their sin. Which he did but no one would respond to God offer without the Holy Spirits intervention because they were dead in their sin.
• Let them live in a perfect world with all the blessing that come with it and they will believe. God tells us that that is what will happen in the millennium but even then dead men will still ultimately reject His Lordship.
In the end only God’s elect will respond to His awaken from the Holy Spirit to turn and worship Him as Lord. But, in the process, of which all of mankind is a part, any excuse that Satan and sinful men may be able to throw out about God not giving man the right opportunity to escape the penalty of sin is clearly rejected.
If God (the potter) made one man (pot) for honor and another for dishonor, I may not see it as fair, but He is the one who defines fair and ultimately it is what will bring Him the glory He deserve. They are both still His creation perfectly made by Him and loved by Him. If He tells me He loves them all regardless of the purpose for which He created them, who am I to disagree. It just that I do not understand Him fully. (Even though I enjoy stretching this flawed and finite mind to understand Him better.)
I hear people say that there are two types of God’s love. I would like a few verses, please. I read something in the Bible about God loving the world to such a point that He gave His only son as a payment for sin. Is there a greater love than that? I presume that by some of the responses, the answer is “yes.” So please post some clear verses on the two kinds of love God has. If you can’t may be should shut up.
Oh, by the way, yesterday I posed an issue that nobody has addressed. That is, why in the world is God jealous when the people He did not elect to worship, love, honor HIM don’t do so?
This god must be out of his mind!!!! Or maybe Calvinism isn’t biblical. Who said that????
@ Vince
It’s important to remember the the decree itself does not force anyone to do anything, but rather God uses their natural desires to have His will done. B/c ppl are acting according to their natural desires (ie Unforced by God) how can God really be at fault? If you were placed into a position unbeknownst to you, say to kill an innocent man to save the world and you did it – you would still be culpable. (not to say God really does things in this way)
And remember. God will not share His glory with another and also all ppl are subject to God. Does not God have the right to be jealous when the ppl he did not elect, but nonetheless owe Him everything good they have attribute things to evolution or their own effort, doesn’t make since that God is jealous. Remember, jealous is something you generally feel for people you care about (or at minimum have a relationship with). Your not jealous when a media person cheats on their spouse (though you might be angry at such acts), but if your spouse cheated on you their would be a since of jealously that comes out b/c you cared for that person.
edit: when I mean that the decree does not force anyone I mean that if you make a blueprint, the blueprint doesn’t walk off the table and make a building. The acutal process of building takes men, vehicles, etc. In the same way God’s decree is not some spirit that goes around and moves ppl rather the environment, time, and people’s natural desires cause things to happen.
John,
“Jealousy is something you generally feel for people you care abut,…” Yeap, that god you describe must REALLY care to elect them to hell. Oh, but He did not elect them to hell? Let’s see…what are the options? Elect to heaven or non-elect to …what?
No, John. Jealosy is because God loves them and they don’t worship, love and honor HIM. They don’t reciprocate. You are correct, God doesn’t share His glory with anyone, that is why He is jealous of it. So then it doesn’t make sense that He would be jealous if He is the direct cause of the glory due Him being given to others.
Every Christmas we sing “Joy to the WORLD, the Lord has come”. The coming of the Savior into the world benefited all humanity. The favor God shows towards His creation is a demonstration of His vast love. In theological parlance this is known as God’s “common grace”.
Yet God’s love for creation (including those who aren’t saved) does not negate His justice. Sin still must be dealt with. For those outside of Christ, they must suffer the guilt of their sins. God honors both justice and mercy. The glorious act of salvation therefore means the believer’s sins are dealt with as well; they were atoned for on the cross.
So God showed His loved towards the world by sending His Son so that by Him many would be saved. This is true even though God would have been perfectly just in not saving a single person. Therefore through God’s redemptive purposes, many receive mercy, still many receive justice, but no one receives injustice at the hands of God.
@ Vince
God is not the direct cause of the people not worshipping Him, though He does have a part – It is no appropriate to say “direct.”
If you read Romans 9 you will see that the potter can do what he wants with the clay.
“19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ “[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— ”
Now here is the real question it comes down to: Can God do what He wants with the Clay? To make some for Glory and to make some for wrath?
Can you some how dictate what is fair for God to do and not do? How can you (as Paul says) O’ Man talk back to God if He has destined some for wrath?
Look to v22 and 23 for a little explanation of why God would do that. Be honest with text and you will see that God can do what He wants b/c He is God! Even if WE CANNOT RESIST HIS WILL. I hope you do not twist the meaning of this passage to fit the idea that God cannot destine people for wrath, but just fall on your face with me and thank God for His amazing grace that He bestowed upon us brother outside of anything we have ever done. Praise the Lord!
note: The means of His salvation (active) and reprobation (passive) are totally different.
“I would like a few verses, please.”
Jerimiah 31:3 “I have loved you with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn you.”
“He that spared not His won Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s ELECT [chosen]? It is God who justifies.
Who shall seperate us from the love of Christ?” Romans 8:32-35
” … even as Christ also loved the Church, and gave Himself for it;
That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word.” Ephesians 5:25-26
No coubt about the love the Lord has for His Church, and His people.
“The foolish shall not stand in Your sight: You hate all workers of iniquity.
You shall destroy them that speak falsehood: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.” Psalm 5:5-6
“.. for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are rebels.” Hosea 9:15
Though the LORD hates the wicked, who are His enemies, those who hate Him, and are unthankful, and yet He gives them food and comfort in this life.
These are the two ways God loves as far as I read Scripture.
Surely God doesn’t love His Son, Jesus Christ the same as He loves those who hate His Son, and despise Him to the death?
Though all whom the Father gives to the Son, He will love us the same, because we are bought with a price, the precious blood of Christ His holy Son.
I always feel like I shouldn’t say the Father loves those who are in Christ the same as Christ, but the Bible tells us so. John 17:23
Though it surely can not be the smae love the Father and the Son have had for all eternity?
To Him be all praise and honor.
On another note (not really directed toward Vince):
Imagine a righteous judge who proclaims to the news that “He loves justice and hates murder! And everyone who murders another human being deserves to go to jail!” This is a correct and righteous indignation the judge has.
What if the next week his son is clearly convicted of murder and its so obvious he gives the guilty plea. Obviously this man is sorrowful, loves his son, and does not want him to go to jail. But at the same time he loves justice and hates murder, and must see that it is punished fairly.
I believe this is how God is. He hates sin and must punish it b/c He is a righteous and holy judge, but loves all people at the same time, but God and the human judge has to do what is right – convict the ones they love and see justice through. For that is right…
Great verses. Can you point out the different kinds of love? I have not seen it yet.
Now, if the Bible stopped at Romans 9, then, maybe one could make a case. But, it doesn’t. There is also a Romans 10.
Not the direct cause. Ok, make god the indirect cause. The difference now is…what?
I’m with you Ken in the joy of stretching my mind to see what I do not always understand. I think there are degrees or types of love shown by God. God can love people in different ways and degrees to a larger ability than us. Do we love all people? I hope so. Do we love our children more? I hope so again. God shows love to the condemned from birth even in just keeping the world as it is. He could kill the non-elect in horrible ways, punish them with no sun or locusts, or the death of the first born, like Egypt. He shows them affection by allowing them some blessings such as family. But much like us we treat our children/family different. That is only a finite way for me to kind of understand. But the whole of His understanding so magnified as compared to mine that I can only reolve to conjecture and best guesses. I know that it is just and good.
I can relate this to RC Sproul when he was asked about how can we say the Lord loves the condemned. He related a story to it. If he were to die and go to heaven, and find his mother not there, he would not feel any loss or pain, for the Lord is 100% just and he will understand it then. That is a tough pill to swallow, but it is only through our fallen minds that there is grey area between good and evil.
One more comment. If God is not the direct cause…is He still soveriegn?
Ok, maybe one more.
Here is a summary:
1. God is Sovereign, then
2. He is the Direct cause of everything, then
3. He is the reason some don’t worship Him, consequently
4. He is jealous, then
5. His jealousy is self-induced.
Caramba!!!!
God can manifest His perfections in any way He chooses, being always consistent with Himself. If He reveals in one part of scripture that He loves all men as a manifestation of the superlative nature of divine love, what is that to us? If in other texts He reveals the divine glory of His hatred of all rebels, what is that to us?
You say, “But how can he love and hate a sinner simultaneously?”
The same way He can love the elect from eternity, yet simultaneously consider them children of wrath by nature prior to conversion!
If God can set His eternal electing love upon a child of wrath, and wait to manifest His electing love until the effectual call of the gospel during the sinner’s lifetime, then surely He can manifest His glory through a purposeful hatred for Christ-rejecters who spurn His sincere offerings of divine love during their lifetime!
The reason we have a problem with this is because we tend to view His love for the elect exclusively against the backdrop of the eternal decrees. Once we are convinced of the doctrine of eternal election, we assume (or logically deduce) that God has only and eternally viewed us as objects of His love. Conversely therefore, we conclude that the non-elect, being sovereignly excluded from grace, can never be the objects of any kind of divine favor. What we must do is accept that just as God has eternally loved the elect unto salvation while children of wrath by nature, so he does manifest (in some sense) divine love toward objects of His wrath whom He will leave in sin.
Hey Vince,
Why did God harden the Pharoahs heart? Did God then punish Egypt for the Pharoahs decision, which he made based on his hardened heart?
The God of the Bible is sovereign, He is omniscient, He is all-knowing and all-powerful. If He isn’t, then you waste your time with Him.
If He can’t forsee evil, he isn’t omniscient. If He didn’t know the path of every created thing He isn’t all knowing. If He doesn’t have power over all and the ability to affect everything in the way He knows is best, He isn’t sovereign.
But Ken hit it dead on, the Lord tells us over and over in His word we will not understand all his ways. Thats why there is faith, we trust in His goodness and that in the end, all things work together for good. You don’t have to understand it all, you can’t. The same way you can’t do anything He can. The God of the Bible is all-knowing and just because you can’t understand His every motive doesn’t make it His shortcoming, it makes it yours. Since you can’t imagine a “loving” God condemning, it is because in this world love has been twisted to mean comforting and protecting only. That god is a universalist. And the Armenian god is no god at all.
Dave,
I would have to study more about the Arminian God. I am not how Arminians define him.
So, you agree that God, the way you describe Him, all-sovereign, suffers from a seld-induced jealousy syndrome.
I don’t have a problem with God loving the non-elect, but clearly that love is not the same as that which God has for the elect, His children.
Of great help to me has been D.A. Carson’s book, The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God.
“The same way He can love the elect from eternity, yet simultaneously consider them children of wrath by nature prior to conversion!” -Jerry Wragg
“Great verses. Can you point out the different kinds of love? I have not seen it yet.”
It’s there. You haven’t read my whole comment, it seems to me.
Do you really want to know how the Lord loves His elect, who are His people, who is His Bride, who He died for?
I suggest you read the comment by Pastor Jerry Wragg, and ponder it a bit. It’s an excellent word for us.
Well, donsands, may be we’ll have to disagree as to what “excellent” is.
I read your verses. But, you have not made a point yet, even though I think you think you did. What is interesting also is the verses you “failed” to mention. Wow, you are discussing God’s love and don’t inc;lude Jn. 3:16 or Rom. 5:8. Now, tells me alot about your approach to Scripture. Let’s say – perhaps selective approach to scripture. Are those included in your bible. Which love is refed to in Jn. 3:16 and Rom. 5:8?
Yeap, that god must be suffering a self-induced case of jealousy. He is jealous because He doesn’t love them with a saving love, and yet they have opted not to worship him, even though in his sovereignty he purposedly left them out. Let’s see, they are: unloved, non-elect and yet god expectes to worship Him, but when they don’t he is bothered. Yeap. Logical.
“Which love is refed to in Jn. 3:16 and Rom. 5:8?”
This love is God’s love for His elect. God gave His Son for the world, and surely He will save the world for those whom He died, those who believe. And He died for “us”, the elect. In verse 9 Paul says, “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him”.
I could have gladly used more Scripture. I think there are 39,000 verses in the Bible.
You are judging me wrongly. But that’s your right.
You seem to have a hang up on God being jealous. He is a jealous God for sure.
He is jealous for His holy name. And we all hate His holy name. In fact we would go on hating His holy name if not for His great mercy.
I don’t understand where you’re coming from.
“have to disagree as to what “excellent” is.”
We sure will.
God’s ways are way above mine, and I love Him and His Word. His Word rules, and is the final authority.
Vince, how do you interpret these following verses with the verse where the Lord tells us that the Father loves His enemies? And there are more, but I hope this is sufficient for you.
“The foolish shall not stand in Your sight: You hate all workers of iniquity.
You shall destroy them that speak falsehood: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.” Psalm 5:5-6
“.. for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are rebels.” Hosea 9:15
@ Vince
“Now, if the Bible stopped at Romans 9, then, maybe one could make a case. But, it doesn’t. There is also a Romans 10.”
This is the kind of exegesis that get’s us in trouble and come up with funky explanations. You can’t cover up what chapter 9 says, w/ chapter 10 , which btw does not cover it.
“Let’s see, they are: unloved, non-elect and yet god expectes to worship Him, but when they don’t he is bothered. Yeap. Logical.”
hmmm… We by being creatures and God being Holy as He, rightfully should be worshipped by His creatures WHETHER THEY ARE TOO SINFUL TOO OR NOT.
Its not like he is expecting everyone of us to play basketball like Michael Jordan – that is (unfortunately) not inherent as humans, but worship to God is. Not everyone on the Bulls need to play like Mike, but they must play.
It is not b/c ppl should worship by virtue of their election, rather it is by their creation.
I thought each man was to die for his own sin. Adam’s sin caused us to inherit a sin nature, surely, but to automatically preclude any hope of salvation except by the imposition of God is a stretch.
God wants people to go to hell. And not just some, but most! If He didn’t, He would have it otherwise. This is what you must believe to be a Calvinist.
Dear Vince…Donsands, et al,
Let me say first, I do appreciate your zeal in plummeting the depths on this discussion concerning God’s omni-benevolence.
Secondly, I am thankful even more when you show Christian respect to (vertically) your Creator and (horizontally) to your counterparts in the discussion.
Grabbing the horns of the debate,
A repeat challenge has been presented for someone out there to please reconcile the matter on how the God of the Bible can 1.) be genuinely compassionate towards each and every lost soul (Ezek. 18:23, 1 Tim. 2:4, 2 Pet. 3:9) while 2.) being supremely instrumental in hardening already-hardened hearts… ultimately to hell (or ‘double predestination’ as in Matt. 13:13-15 and Romans 9:13-18).
Well, if you do not accept 2.) double-predestination then there’s really nothing to wrangle about.
Speaking as one who does confess both God’s omni-benevolence and His sovereign role in double-predestination I’m left with the following resolves:
1. I cannot logically reconcile 1 and 2 of the above.
2. God can logically reconcile 1 and 2 in a way that is beyond me (Isa. 55:8).
3. God does not expect me to logically reconcile 1 and 2 of the above whereas,
a. His Word tells me avoid thoughts that put God on trial for being Himself (see Rom. 9:20).
b. His Word tells me “the secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.” (Deut. 29:29). Mind you, Israel had to press on in obedience while acknowledging that for their former generation -“the Lord has not given [them] a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear” (a hint of double-predestination in Deut. 29:4). I’m sure that was difficult.
c. I cannot exhaustively explain the “three-in-one/ three-IS-one” aspects of the Trinity and yet I confess the Trinity as true and not an impediment to proclaiming the God of the Gospel.
d. Even angels have a difficult time understanding all the details of God’s salvific plan in the course of it’s ongoing revelation (1 Peter 1:10-12).
e. The Apostle Paul is the example to be followed when he gives glory to God at the end of Romans 11.
Thanks again for your interaction on this…
Grace & peace,
Jon
“This is what you must believe to be a Calvinist.”
I’m a Calvinist, and I don’t believe that.
Incredible love of God.
Could you explain how this is not so? If God wanted more people saved, He would save them, no? The choice seems to be..either He can’t or He won’t. Which is it?
I say, He (sovereignly, of course) permits man to choose. Thus, the loss of almost all of humanity to the lake of fire is NOT God’s choice.
“I say, He (sovereignly, of course) permits man to choose. Thus, the loss of almost all of humanity to the lake of fire is NOT God’s choice.”
Yeah, man did choose. But, it was not mankind. For by one man, Adam, sin entered into the world…Therefore through one man’s sin came condemnation to all. One man chose, and the rest are condemned by it. Seems to reflect the revelation of God’s soveriegnty, doesn’t it.
How is it that Adam chose? Was he created both good and evil? With an evil nature as well as a good nature? Not hardly, he was created in the image of God, unable to choose evil. Then how is it that he chose evil. The text says that he listened to the voice of the woman. She had been decieved by the serpent and “saw the fruit as good.” She saw what the Devil told her to see, and she, being in transgression turned and taught Adam to see it as good. He did not chose what he knew to be evil but what he saw (believed) to be good. (Ignorance is not an excuse, as Jesus makes clear that teaching someone that sin is good does not make it any less sin.) This is why women are not allowed to teach. It reflects the story of the fall, she being like the serpent a deciever, teaching as truth, the lie. And, here is the kicker, sin did not enter into mankind through Adam. The text clearly declares that it first entered mankind through the woman. Adam definitely eats, and because he does we are condemned. But, the reponsibility for bringing sin into the world was laid upon him even though it was the woman, not the man, who was decieved by the serpent. In any case, it is not because of anything that we chose, that we are condemned. We are born possessing sin because of Adam, and in doing so we are condemned.
Now, if any would like to say that this was not God’s plan, then I would like to know who planned it. If it was Satan’s plan, then he is able to bring into being what God has no forknowledge of, and God is not God. Here is another kicker. God knew what would happen, not because someone told him it would, or that he learned it by seeing in in the future, but because he predestined it. Either way, what we have is God who is love. And he brought this all to be, regardless of whose choice it was, in love. However, if you have a stunted idea of love, you will not see that all that God does is according to it. All of creation works out his love. Do you think God loves you more than a rock because of something in you? God is able to raise up from rocks children of Abraham. Love is not because of something in the creation. Love is because God is. It is part of his eternal nature. So also is justice, because perfect love perfectly judges. Whether you want to believe it or not, all those who are in hell and will be are loved perfectly by God through justice. But, until you understand that love is not an ishy, gishy, ooie, gooie, mold it any way you want it sweet sappy formless void, but has eternal incorruptible value, definition, and specificity of action, quality, extent and function, a many facet expression of the infinite God, which Paul describes as the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, you will not know so that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
I see, “world” means the “world of the elect,” and “sinners” means the “elect sinners.”
Now, of course we don’t want to remain consistent in that kind of interpretation because, uh, it doesn’t favor the conclusion.
T I think I am starting to understand. A Calvinist basis his interpretation on Calvin, duh, who in turn based his theology on Augustine, who just happens to adopt the allegorical method of interpretation. What that means is that he understood what is not there. He had a “deeper” understanding that most people lack. Calvinism and Calvinist follow in the same foot steps. They have the “deeper” understanding for what it is not there.
I am thinking of the movie “National Treasure.” The main character is chasing after a treasure, and he figures that the clues are found on the US Constitution. However, the clues are not readily seen unless seen thru a particular set of glasses. Just like Calvinism. One can only see the theology of Calvinism if looking thru the lens of….Calvinism. Of course, the clues on the back of the Constitution were fictional, and so is Calvinism.
“We are born possessing sin because of Adam, and in doing so we are condemned.”
Amen.
God’s wrath is upon this world, and He is longsuffering, but His wrath is being built-up.
And the thing is this. God doesn’t owe anyone, except justice. The fair thing for God would be judge us all.
When I look back over my life and count my sins, they are in the thousands, even tens of thousands, and I will answer for them before a Holy God.
Why should the Lord allow anyone into His holy presence? The answer is: He shouldn’t.
But God …. with His great love wherewith He loved us!
Jesus came to take my thousands of sins, and He became sin, my sin, and He imputes His righteousness to me. 2 Cor. 5:21
And there’s no way I would have ever chosen God’s truth, I hated the truth, and loved the darkness. John 3:20
But God with His great mercy quickened my dead spirit, and gave me a new heart, an heart that now loves the truth, though it fights against my flesh.
It’s all about God showing mercy, not me choosing.
“A Calvinist basis his interpretation on Calvin, duh,”
I don’t. I base all interpretation on the Scriptures, as Calvin did. I simply use the title Calvinist to be upfront with my theology. I don’t really particular like the name Calvinist, and I know John Calvin wouldn’t like it at all.
So it’s not fiction, it’s truth.
Eap, yeap, yeap. Calvinism is Scriptural. We heard that before. But I think that may be the allegorical meaning of Scriptural…which in Augustinian thought may mean “whatever one wishes it to mean.”
And it still remains that:
1.”God is love,” but nor really, He just loves the world of the elect
2.The rest, He likes, like I like a chicken before I slaughter it
3.Those who are quasi-loved, and non-elected by his direct intervention
4.He expects to worship Him
5.Even though they can’t because He made it impossible for them to do
6.But He still expects them to worship him
7.And because they don’t, or better, they can’t, because he has not enabled them
8.He becomes jealous
9.Because those who he doesn’t really love, who are non-elect, rejected, and un-anabled because of his own decree don’t worship him.
That is all from me. I am out of pearls.
“That is all from me. I am out of pearls.”
What’s that mean?
Vince, where do you attend church, if you don’t mind me asking?
I attend Christ Fellowship Church in Fallston Maryland cfc.org. We’re a non-denonm just starting out. My pastor is reformed, but the congregation is a mixture.
He has been teaching and preaching through the book of Romans: Expository preaching. And for the most part he will do this with all the books of the Bible. He’s a good pastor, who loves the Lord and fears God with rejoicing. And yet we have some disagreements within our church for sure.
But we all agree we need to bow the knee to the Holy Lord Jesus Christ, and to His Holy Word.
Just thought you may be interested in a little background.
@ Vince
Eap, yeap, yeap. Calvinism is Scriptural. We heard that before. But I think that may be the allegorical meaning of Scriptural…which in Augustinian thought may mean “whatever one wishes it to mean.”
Yes Augustine was prone to an allegorical interpretation, but here you made a false analogy that Calvinism is allegorical b/c Augustine was.
Anyways, good dialogue. Go out and share the Gospel now.
I would like to know if God loves those whom He casts in Hell? If scripture is not clear here then just take a guess. My guess is that God does not think twice about those in Hell. Man was going to Hell anyway and God decided to save a few of them. So the Hell part might as well be moot in comparison to the saved part from a love perspective, right?
We need to accept the Scriptures at their face value and not go beyond them. There are some things that God has not spelled out.
Henry Venn: “‘If any man think that he knoweth anything yet as he ought to know, that man knoweth nothing.’ I used to please myself with the imagination, fifteen years ago, that by prayer for the Holy Ghost, and reading diligently the lively oracles, I should be able to understand all Scripture, and to give it all one clear and consistent meaning. That it is perfectly consistent I am very sure; but it is not so to any mortal’s apprehension here. We are so proud that we must have something to humble us; and this is one means to that end.” [Quoted in Christian Leaders of the 18th Century by J.C. Ryle, p. 293]
The Scriptures teach God’s love in some sense for all. [John 3:16] It teaches that in some sense He is good to all and His mercies are over all His works [Ps. 145:9] It teaches that He does not delight in the death of the wicked but rather that he repent [Ezek. 33:11]
It also teaches that certain ones are given Jesus from the Father [John 6:37] and will come to Him. It teaches that ultimately He chooses us – before we ever make a choice to believe [John 15:16] – that this choice takes place before the foundation of the world [Eph. 1:4, Rom. 8:29, 30]
To deny either truths is to deny the revelation of God Himself.
To press for why God does not save all – or choose all in light of those truths is pressing into more obscure matters of revelation.
However – ‘free will’ is not the answer
The question rephrased really amounts to: ‘Why doesn’t God save people who don’t want to be saved?’
Vince is out of pearls and scripture. For someone asking for scripture you forgot yours. Show us the scriptures that disproves the “Calvinist” view of the elect. The scripture you have given thus far are strong supporters for Calvinism than against. And just so you know from a theoretical/ philosophical stand point your logic is flawed. If A and B then C isn’t a valid argument. Plus your logic is finite and is circular in reasoning.
a. God is soveriegn and controls who goes to heaven.
b. He punishes the non elect who don’t go to heaven.
c. He is confused and unjust for doing so.
That works no different than any circular logic fallacy.
You can’t conclude c because of a & b. If this was the case you could prove/disprove any train of thought. Just for fun:
a. Vince believes in God.
b. God of the Bible is soveriegn and “calvinist”
c. Vince is a “calvinist”
The second point is scripture voices a resounding note that the Lord’s ways are above our understanding. For you to conclude that since the Lord has standards, He also has the power to impose those standards on the people,and since He controls the people He is confused takes in no account of 1. your lack of understanding His ways/means 2. your outlook that all life is worth saving 3. man in his fallen state is an offspring of Satan.
It is easy to see through your posts that your pride in what you know and how you things “should” be is more important that what scripture says. I remember a story I heard from a pastor from his seminary about a man who stood up in a class about God’s sovereignty and said “There is death, sickness, evil and horrors in the world that you can’t even imagine. I could make a better world than the one we are in.” Without missing a beat the professor said, ” Great but I won’t hold you to the whole world, how about you just make me a rabbit.”
The fact it is hard to understand everything the Lord does isn’t a lack on His part, but ours.
I don’t understand this any better than any imperfect man can.
Jon did a good job of defending what the Bible says and we can take it or leave it with one caveat: if you don’t believe even one part, do you end up believing any part?
Jesus gave us a hint as to who the elect are when He said “As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.” (Luke 8:15 ESV)
If God were to save everyone (which He practically could) then He is merciful, but not just.
If God were to damn everyone, He would be just, but not merciful.
God is both love and justice. Why some are not called is beyond our ability to comprehend. We will never understand it, even in eternity. But we will be very grateful then, as we should be now, that for some reason beyond our meriting it, God called us to be His own.
Is God fair? Absolutely! We have no clue what is going on in the spiritual world and how a person ends up with an evil and dishonest heart or a good and honest one. We are simply expected to acknowledge that God is sovereign and His ways are righteous and true even if they look wrong to us. Who else can you trust? Who else will you go to?
Thank God for Christ Jesus and His obedience. What if Jesus had questioned why He had to die? His flesh rebelled against it. That’s how we know he was truly in the flesh (unlike the JWs). But, while in the flesh He had given up His omniscience, He willingly finished what had been prophesied in order to “fulfill all righteousness”. That’s how we know He was God, too.
Why did God have to die for us? Couldn’t there have been a better way? We simply don’t understand it, so we must accept, in faith, that God knows all, is all, and deserves our trust.
No one has answered the question…God wants people to go to hell, yes? Could you explain how this is not so? If God wanted more people saved, He would save them, no? The choice seems to be..either He can’t or He won’t. Which is it?
So we can’t tell anyone that God actually wants them to go to heaven because He might not, right?
And why did people “reason from the Scriptures” in the Bible since they are programmmed to respond anyway?
Someone wrote
David,
Your view of calvinists is quite the exraordinary one. I think you know that no calvinist realy thinks this way. In fact the bible says that God is not willing that ANY should perish but that all should come to repentance. I think you also know that not everyone will be saved in the end. God is in control of everything (even salvation) but this does not mean that He enjoys sending people to hell; but we know that He will.”.
He does all His “good pleasure” doesn’t He? Only the choice of man explains the dilemma
“He does all His “good pleasure” doesn’t He? Only the choice of man explains the dilemma”
All mankind is rebellious. This humanity on earth is a cesspool of sin, which has a stench worse than anything we could ever imagine.
Do you believe that David?
And God could cleanse this earth of this stench, which is what would be logical for a holy God, who is hated and mocked constantly. And yet he comes down into the cesspool of sin, and by His great mercy and grace redeems this filth, and turns it into a sweet smelling aroma to his glory.
Should he condemn all humans to hell? And that all of us, from the smallest child to the oldest of grandmas: We are all evil to the core. Yes He should.
David, do you believe this?
Certainly
“Certainly”
Personally I have a difficult time with believeing this sometimes. i look at my grandson and it’s difficult for me to believe he deserves God’s condemnation of eternal hell.
And yet it is true.
I think it’s difficult, because although i understand God is holy, and that He hates sin, I don’t see His holiness as holy as it truly is, and i don’t see sin as sinful and evil as it truly is.
However, since we agree that God would be just to condemn all, and that would be fair, and that He owes us nothing, can we agree that to show mercy at all is His sovereign choice, and that we have nothing to do with it?
donsands,
Does that mean if your grandson were to die right now he would go to hell??
Eddie
P.S. I’ve been trying to understand how a baby who doesn’t have understanding of God’s law can be condemned and sent to hell. I’d really like your thoughts, or any one else who would like to comment.
That’s a tough one Eddie. I like to believe that all the children who die are God’s elect.
God is incredibly merciful, and His grace reaches to the ends of the universe.
However, the Scriptures are vague at best on this subject.
We are born in sin, and we are cursed, and the only way to be uncursed is through Christ the Holy One, who became a curse for us.
Perhaps they will have a study on this subject here at Pulpit Mag. I know John MacArthur has teachings on this.
“God is incredibly merciful, and His grace reaches to the ends of the universe.”
Then, even though He could, with a mere nod, save billions from eternal misery, He won’t? Come on, now…
“Come on, now…”
My whole point in my comments, which I guess you missed, is why God would bother to save anyone. Especially me.
David, You said:
“Then, even though He could, with a mere nod, save billions from eternal misery, He won’t? Come on, now…”
God CAN’T or He wouldn’t be God…he’d be just like you, or me. And we aren’t God, not by a very long shot. God hates sin, has provided a way for all to escape the penalty, but knows most will never be able to accept it and elects those who will.
God does this because He is outside of the illusion of time and space that we are subject to and influenced by. We kill a bug without thinking about whether it could possibly be convinced to not come into our house or car. We know it cannot help itself; it will do what it’s natural for it to do. Same with people. Some are incapable of loving God because of something and refuse to let that go. I like how C.S.Lewis puts it: “Hell is locked from the inside.” Some would rather go there than ever acknowledge God and follow His escape route.
You have to remember God is a complex being with more than one attribute. Many people do not like the idea of ‘hell’ – but from a certain direction it is one of the most logical and compelling positions of the Christian faith. It is in part the answer to the philosopher’s so called ‘problem of evil’. What is God’s relationship to the evil of this world? Quite simply – He hates wickedness [Prov. 6:16-19] and will punish the wicked. The sinner does not get away with His sin. There is justice in this wicked world after all. All stand before the bar of God. [Heb. 9:27]
I think the grandness of this position is almost entirely lost when we try to send infants to hell. An Arminian jibe at some of the high Calvininsts in Wales was to mock, ‘the streets of hell are paved with the heads of infants.’ We shouldn’t really be thinking of infants in hell – we should be thinking of child murderers standing before God and being sentenced to hell. We should be thinking of the immoral, murderers, the liars, the idolaters being sent to hell [Rev. 21:8]. You won’t find a verse in Scripture where the inhabitants of hell are portrayed to be infants who committed no act of sin of their own. Let’s paint the picture accurately before we fault God for being less than full of compassion. He also is just and that brings some sanity into a world filled with Virginia Tech shooters, Hitler’s, O.J. Simpson’s, and child abductors.
And yes – there will be some murderers in heaven – who by the grace of God came to see their sin and turn from it – embracing the Savior.
What Did Luther Believe About Predestination?
Those who would like to know the truth about this, can find it on the website at Our Reedemer Lutheran Church:
http://www.orlutheran.com/html/martin_luther.html
Don’t just take peoples’ statements about it as factual, read it for yourself in :”What did Luther believe about Predestination?- His Final Word On The Subject.”
David,
You said, “Then, even though He could, with a mere nod, save billions from eternal misery, He won’t? Come on, now…”
Do you believe that God will save everyone?
Of course not. The Bible clearly states that the majority will be lost. I merely believe it is because “they did not like to retain the knowledge of God” rather than God didn’t give them a shot at salvation. Even John MacArthur postulated in a book that the blinding was a strange act of mercy because, since they were rejecting what had been revealed, they would be punsihed even more severely for any additional revelation, which they also would have rejected. This satisfies the justice of God and doesn’t diminish His mercy.
David,
So If you believe that God won’t save everyone, then what do you believe that God sees as more important than saving everyone?
His glory, for one. He cannot dwell with unrighteousness. I believe if man were willing, God would save everyone. He knew, however, they would not.
David,
You are absolutely correct to say that God sees His own glory as more important than saving everyone. But if God’s glory is the reason for not saving everyone, then preserving man’s free will cannot be the reason, because the two are conflicting answers and therefore cannot both be correct.
donsands,
Regarding John 17:23 I find that a great many of today’s evangelicals are hesitant to think that it does mean the same love with which He loved Jesus. Because we’re so on guard against humanism (and rightly so) we’re been conditioned to avoid thinking that God could love us as much as the Father has loved Christ from all eternity. The strongest argument from theology is that if God loved us that much, He would be an idolater against Himself since only God is worthy of such infinite and supreme love. The argument is sound but it is not cogent since it ignores our union with Christ. In Greek, the word used for “as” in John 17:23 means “just as,” in other words, exactly as. Inasmuch as (Strongs Lexicon). The late Dr. James M. Boice said it is the strongest word to use in the context. Yes, God does love His elect AS MUCH as He loves Jesus. This verse does not just mean in like manner; it means in exact manner. And we see the same thing — with the same word — in John 15:9 of Jesus’ love to us, as well. Such a view is not heresy; it was found in the old preachers. It’s modern preaching that has largely ignored this.
Look up the following resources for some evidence:
* Charles Spurgeon’s sermon on John 17:26 (“Love and I”—A Mystery)
* Dr. James Boice’s expository sermon on John 17:23 from the Bible Study Hour
* Dr. Jack MacArthur Sr. (Dr. John’s father)’s sermons on John 15 and 17
* H.A. Ironside’s commentary on the Gospel of John
* Martyn Lloyd-Jones’ sermon “In the Beloved,” taken from his book exposition of Ephesians 1 (God’s Ultimate Purpose)
* The John 17:26 study note from the 1599 Geneva Study Bible
* John Calvin’s commentary on John 17
* Puritan Thomas Goodwin’s sermon “The Riches of God’s Love to His Elect”
This is semi-speculative, but I think the reason God can love and delight in us infinitely much is for His Son’s sake, because we are united to — betrothed to — His eternal, beloved Son. Therefore we are beloved, too. Everything God has ever done, He’s done it for Jesus. Everything Jesus has ever done, He’s done it for the Father. We need to view verses like “for my own sake” and “for my glory” in the context of the Trinity and the members of the Godhead acting to honor not to much themselves individually but rather each other. This retains God-centeredness and yet shows us how and why God can and does love, cherish and value (because we love what we value; cf. Matthew 6:21) us in Christ and for His sake, as much as He does Christ Himself. There is no greater love in the universe than this. Christ gets it inherently, and we as a byproduct, but we get it nonetheless.