Our salvation is equally a mystery. God elects us yet we choose Him This is a fact and it can not be expalined. Anyone that tries to will fail and usually lead to blasphemy. that is why its caled faith

In Christ,
Daniel Chaney

My statement of the scriptures being illumined by the Holy Spirit was not in reference to Calvinism, it was in reference to being able to know God at all. The whole of scripture is about God and His character, so if it isn’t clear, then what hope is there for becoming like Christ? I am not saying that “If you don’t understand ALL of scripture then you are not enlightened by the Holy Spirit.” But if you don’t even believe that a Christian can know God, then that is more than just not knowing scripture, that is denying its purpose.

The debate is, indeed, over. When you make a statement like this, “Anyone whose mind has been illumined by the Holy Spirit will understand the scripture,” then you are in effect saying, “If you don’t understand the scripture, then you’re not enlightened by the Holy Spirit.” It neatly precludes any debate. That broad condemnatory statement includes everyone this side of you and John McArthur, because as you can tell from many of the above comments, not everyone agrees with Calvinism, and even among Calvinists there is disagreement about the meaning of scripture. Your post is quite indicative of why you are so susceptible to Calvinist doctrine: like the Pharisees, you are quick to dispose of any criticism that doesn’t conform to your theological paradigm. Jesus harshly criticized those Pharisees because they mishandled scripture in such a way that made it nearly impossible for anyone to be saved—but them. And unlike them, in your gut you must know that your own doctrine may condemn even you. For you can never be certain that you are among those fortunate enough to have membership in God’s elect. So, ironically, you are in no better position than I. Sadly, despite your alleged “illumination,” your knowledge of the scripture can offer you no real comfort. And, equally sadly, you can offer none to the rest of us.

You have admitted that you do not claim to know God so the debate is over. 1Co 2:14 says, “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” God’s love is shown in the fact that He does indeed save some, which is more than what we deserve. God has revealed all that His children need to know for life and godliness in His unchanging, infallible, and clear scripture. Anyone whose mind has been illumined by the Holy Spirit will understand the scripture. If the scriptures are not clear, then God is not knowable. If this is the case then there is no such thing as sanctification because sanctification is the process of becoming more like Christ. I pray that God will show Himself to you because He is knowable.

Your reply is well within the accepted orthodoxy of your theology, but it is not within the accepted orthodoxy of common sense. You can quote Paul, who in fact does not further our understanding of the dilemma because he simply evades it, but in so doing you are simply adding to the problem. The point is that for you and other Calvinists rational discourse and inquiry is not an option in exploring the obvious problem generated from your theology. There simply is no way to see the statement “God is Love” as meaningful, as long as a significant number of us are going to burn in hell for no other reason but that God wills it.

You asked whether I believe that God has a right to send His creation wherever He wants to. Well, of course he has the “right” to do anything he wants, but he cannot (or, rather, his defenders cannot) claim that in so doing he is acting on any high moral principle, at least in the way we commonly regard morality. If he acts in a way that obviously contradicts our common understanding of morality, then the fault is either with our understanding of morality or with the act itself. Possibly, God’s defenders are misrepresenting him, which is quite likely, but I understand that possibility is not an option for you. So, you are left with the problem of how to understand such a counter-intuitive notion. It is not enough to say “Who art thou that repliest against God?” There are a few places in scripture where people actually do “reply” against God, and sometimes they do so successfully.

And what of the invitation to “come let us reason together”? If one desires to be a fideist, then so be it. Fideism is an acceptable, albeit non-rational, position. But I have a problem with those–like some Christian apologists–who wish to have it both ways. They speak in the language of reason, but then retreat to “faith” when the hard questions arise.

Finally, you asked: “If God has not revealed himself to us in a way that we can understand, then how can we know him? Do you even claim to know God?” You misunderstand my point about revelation. I’m not the one who claims that the bible is the authoritative “word of God.” But anyone who so claims must be prepared to answer the question: If God has revealed himself in scripture, why is it so fraught with misunderstandings and misinterpretations? You might say it is because of our depravity. But wouldn’t God have taken that into account when he inspired the writers? And, if the effort is directed toward those who couldn’t possibly make coherent sense of it, why did he undertake it? Further, it seems to me that along with the direct revelation he could of supplied a sort of “divine commentary” on it. That might help to clear up a few things. You have to admit that the presentation of God in scripture is not in any obvious way “systematic.” We supply any organization, which seems odd to me.

I also find it odd that someone can claim to “know” God, but cannot claim to understand something as simple as, “Why does God create some people as “vessels of wrath”? It would be a little like someone asking a wife if her husband was a child torturer, and she replied, “Listen, I know my husband, and if he tortured those children, he must have had a good reason.” I do not claim to know God with any degree of certainty. Please explain to me how you can so claim, but cannot claim to know his real nature?

What do you think of Phillipians 2:13? Also what do you think about the part of the verses you quoted that says, “If I want him to remain until I come”?

In Christ,
Daniel Chaney

You said, “The extraordinary and breathtaking disputes over the meaning of nearly every theologically pregnant passage of scripture are sufficient evidence that clarity is not among God’s attributes. Simply put, he is not a “great communicator,” if judged by the product of his endeavors: the Old and New Testaments.”

If God has not revealed himself to us in a way that we can understand, then how can we know him? Do you even claim to know God?

You also said, “What each of us feels deep in our marrow-saturated bones is leading us astray, if we cannot judge as unfair a situation in which, before we were born, God condemned us to hell and perpetual torment.”

Paul deals with your precise objection in Romans 9. After saying that God “has mercy upon whomever he wills, and hardens the heart of whomever he wills” (Romans 9:18), Paul then raises this precise objection: “You will say to me then, ‘Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?’” (Romans 9:19). Here is the heart of your unfairness objection against the doctrine of election. If each person’s ultimate destiny is determined by God, not by the person himself, then how can this be fair? Paul’s response is not one that appeals to our pride, nor does he attempt to give a philosophical explanation of why this is just. He simply calls on God’s rights as the omnipotent creator: “Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

Don’t you believe that God has a right to send His creation wherever He wants to?