John MacArthur, Doug Pagitt, and Yoga
September 13th, 2007
On Tuesday (September 11), John MacArthur was asked by CNN to participate in a live discussion on the topic of yoga and Christianity, for a segment of Prime News with Erica Hill. The other guest in the discussion was Doug Pagitt, a pastor in Minneapolis and a recognized leader in the emerging church movement.
The following is an unofficial transcript of that discussion (which we are posting here because CNN does not publish transcripts for Prime News with Erica Hill). A link to the video feed can be found here.
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Mike Galanos (host): [directed to Erica Hill] Let me ask you that question? When you do yoga do you feel the spirituality? Would it compromise a faith with you?
Erica Hill (host): No to me it’s very, to me it’s relaxing. It relaxes me. Now to some people maybe that would be relaxation in the form of spirituality. But to me, it’s sort of “oh,” it’s clearing my head, it’s giving me a break.
Mike Galanos (host): Okay. And that, you hear a lot of that, you read a lot of that on the internet. Me personally, I haven’t done it. I work out, maybe I’m doing a few curls and I’m getting out of the gym, so I come at this with a purely inquisitive mind. What do we have here? Alright let’s find out.
Erica mentioned it’s big — seventeen million of you out there practice yoga. But again, Erica mentioned it, some Christians, one in particular says a Christian should not do yoga. He’s Pastor John MacArthur; he is pastor of Grace Community Church also host of the radio show Grace to You. He joins us now. Bottom line, basically you can’t get the physical benefits without incorporating the spiritual roots of yoga. We’ll talk with John MacArthur in just a minute.
Also joining us, a pastor who fully disagrees and says “Hey, doing yoga is okay,” Doug Pagitt. His church in Minneapolis actually offers a class in yoga.
But let’s start with you, John MacArthur. Alright, let’s say I do decide to try yoga, head to the local gym, give it a shot. What am I opening myself up to spiritually that could go against my Christian faith?
John MacArthur: Well that would depend on how the yoga is conducted. If it’s just purely exercise, and you’re a strong Christian, it probably wouldn’t have any impact on your faith. But in the big picture, why would Christians want to borrow an expression from a false religion, from pantheism (god is everything, you’re god, everything is god), when we believe there’s only one true God (the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ). Why would we need to import that? If you want to exercise, exercise. But why borrow a term that has been part of a false religion for centuries?
Mike Galanos (host): Doug Pagitt, let’s get you in on this. And as we do, I want to read the definition from Webster’s on “yoga.” It says it’s “a Hindu theistic philosophy teaching the suppression of all activity of body, mind, and will in order that the self may realize its distinction from them and attain liberation.” Kind of tough one to cipher but, on a spiritual front for a Christian, that does not sound like Christ-centered faith to me. On the surface of that definition, what’s going on here? Help us out.
Doug Pagitt: Well, for people who perform yoga, what they’re normally trying to do is to find a whole and complete and healed life. So when people participate in yoga, most of them aren’t on some kind of a yoga agenda. What they’re trying to do is use whatever practices they can find that would help them have a whole and complete life. And for a Christian, that’s certainly what we’re after. The Jesus agenda is a whole life, is a complete life, is a healed life. So when people use it to relieve stress, to be healthy in their relationships, to feel good in their body, that’s a really good thing.
In fact, there’s a great little verse in the New Testament where it says, “Whatever is good, whatever is right, whatever is noble, whatever is praiseworthy, think upon such things.” And for so many of us, yoga has been one of those ‘whatevers’ that’s such a positive thing in our life.
Mike Galanos (host): So you say, Jesus is alright with yoga?
Doug Pagitt: Yeah, are you asking if I think Jesus was alright with yoga?
Mike Galanos (host): Yeah.
Doug Pagitt: Yeah, I’m not sure exactly how to answer a question like that. My assumption is that Christianity and yoga are not in competition with one another and are not enemies of one another. So to suggest that I could speak clearly for everything that Jesus would have been okay with – if Jesus was familiar with yoga when he was alive, and yoga has certainly around from before the time of Jesus, I don’t think Jesus ever spoke out against yoga and said, don’t perform yoga. But that kind of question that you’re going to ask somebody – “If Jesus was okay with it, then I wouldn’t do it” – that’s the kind of thing that says, would Jesus be okay with pastors wearing suits? Would Jesus be okay with having Christmas trees? These are the kinds of questions that just don’t move forward.
Mike Galanos (host): Let’s get back to the yoga — Doug, let’s get back to yoga real quick – as you do the postures, and this again, again I have not done yoga, but you do the postures, and they’re, one of the concerns is that it’s an offering to some of the millions of Hindu gods. Is there a part of you in the spirit that’s tweaked at all by this? Are you bothered at all. You practice yoga yourself. How do you go through with it?
Doug Pagitt: Hey, I have to confess that I’m not very good at it? Yoga, it’s really hard to hold these postures, to hold these positions. And I’ll tell you that from my own experience, and the many, many people that I know who participate in yoga, none of them have ever found themselves to be opened up to something negative or something demonic or something evil. In fact, many of us find the high benefit that comes from body mind connection, and from knowing that we are pushing, that we are stretching, that we are sending our body into an exercise. And that exercise is not wholly disconnected from our will or from our mind or from our spirit; it’s a complete practice. And I’ve never known anybody who has had anything detrimental come into their spirit because of their practice of yoga.
Mike Galanos (host): John MacArthur, real quick, want to get you in on this as well, is all yoga bad yoga for the Christian?
John MacArthur: Well, let me just respond to what I’ve been hearing. That doesn’t sound anything like Christianity. If you want a whole life, if you want your life to be what it should be, you don’t put yourself in some weird physical position, empty your mind, center on yourself and try to relieve your stress. You go to the word of God, to the gospel of Jesus Christ, you embrace in faith the sacrifice of Christ in his death and resurrection as your savior and redeemer. God comes, regenerates you, transforms your life, makes you a new creation, and you’re saved and you’re on your way to heaven, and you can live a life of peace and joy. That’s the promise of the gospel. There is no contribution made to that by any physical position or any kind of meditation.
The idea of Christianity is to fill your mind with biblical truth and focus on the God who is above you. That’s Christian worship. The idea of yoga is to fill your mind with nothing except to focus on yourself and try to find the god that is inside of you. From a Christian viewpoint, that’s a false religion. Exercise is a different issue.
Mike Galanos (host): Gentlemen, we’re going to have to leave it there. Pastor Doug Pagitt and John MacArthur we appreciate your time, both of you. Thank you very much.
I don’t see Mr.Doug as a pastor, yet as a grue.
thankyou for posting this video, please post future ones.
I am in seminary and wrote a research paper on the emerging church. Doug Padgitt is a fraud! Stay away from anything he says. As far as yoga, why? MacArthur hit the nail on the head. Why do we need to look inside our self for relaxation or sress relief? Is not God all we need? Does He not care for us and know our every need? Leave the “world” out of Christianity, Christianity is to go into the world through us.
As someone who has practiced Yoga in the past, I appreciate Dr. MacArthur’s comments. Initially, when people start out doing the postures and breathing exercises they only see the obvious health benefits associated with Yoga.
What they don’t realize is that they are being gradually exposed to Hindu worship/religious practice which is the basis of all the postures of Yoga. Everything associated with Yoga reflects Hindu philosophy. There is no such thing as “Christian Yoga” as any devoted Yoga swami will tell you.
Christians naively think they can do the exercises and leave all the other stuff alone. But why, as John pointed out, would any Christ loving person want to expose themselves to a false, pagan religion.
Yoga in its basic form is nothing more than stretching exercises and there are many exercises people can do that give the same health benefits.
People think there is something very spiritual about Yoga and that the postures are somehow magical for their well-being. This is nonsense. Stretching your body is stretching your body no matter how you do it.
Satan is very crafty. Just as demons used the idols of the ancient Israelites to keep them in bondage, they also work within these false systems to led people away from true Biblical christianity.
The angry comments from CNN viewers in support of Yoga practice just shows how on target John is but maybe it will give some Christian out there a reason to stop and evaluate themselves if they are engaged in this practice.
Dennis Holland
Did they actually give MacArthur the last word?
I hate to disagree with Pastor MacArthur, and even more hate to agree with Doug Pagitt. But, I do think MacArthur’s argument is flawed. First, the Hebrew term for God (“el”) is borrowed from the pagan religions of the Old Testament period—it was common to all of them. There is nothing inherently wrong with borrowing such terms. Both Paul and Peter (particularly 2nd Peter) incorporated pagan terminology and gave it a new, Christian meaning.
Secondly, yoga is the act of meditation combined with pagan religion. A Christian is called to meditate. There is of course a key difference, as MacArthur rightly notes. Namely, we do not “empty” ourselves, but rather “fill” ourselves (chiefly with the Word of God). Thus, for Christians yoga should be very bible-centered.
As for the physical positions, while I admit some of it is silly, some of it actually works. Are we surprised that God, who created humanity as a whole being, designed us in such as way that our spirits and bodies have a mutual relationship to one another? For example, if I overwork myself to the point of exhaustion, my spirituality suffers. I become angry, ill-tempered, and lack the fruit of the Spirit. Yes, it is a sin, but I can only correct that sin by ALSO making sure I have adequate rest. Why is it so hard to imagine sitting in certain physical positions helps our souls?
Perhaps God knew this, which is why we have numerous example in Scripture of people prostrating themselves before God. In other words, we could only experience a spiritual reality (humble submission to God) by participating in a physical reality (bowing the knee). The key is that the physical act doesn’t guarantee the spiritual reality–but it also cannot be divorced from it.
I think MacArthur, in reaction to pure paganism and emergent repackaged paganism, may be failing to see the fullness of humanity and the inter-relatedness of our component “parts”.
Yet again, I am a puppy in the faith compared to MacArthur, and I value his wisdom highly. If you have to choose between my thoughts, and his, if I were you I would set your default to “MacArthur”. Blessings. I should note that my wife is a Christian from India, so I also may be biased regarding yoga. But, living in a pagan context, she has been forced to think deeply about if and how to incorporate pagan practices in her daily life.
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I find it heartbreaking when someone allows the practices of a religion that denies Christ as Savior into a building designed to worship Him.
Thanks for pointing this out. I loved MacArthur’s solid, biblical perspective!
Once again John MacArthur seizing every opportunity to lay out the gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for millions to hear. Shame on Doug Pagitt for his lack of discernment with such an elementary subject. If Doug gets this wrong………
“Did they actually give MacArthur the last word?” LOL, amazing isn’t it?
Thanks again to Dr. MacArthur for being the ambassador for Christ in this dark world!
This exchange is indicative of the dangerous nature of the emerging “conversation.”
What Padgitt said is false regarding the danger of yoga: yoga practioners and teachers have admitted to potentially terrifying “kundalini awakenings”. The very meaning of the word is “yoke” – a yoke to the spiritual forces that are pursued. In the same way that a non-believer would betray the purpose of the Lord’s supper by practicipating in this symbolic meal, a Christian would betray the spiritual nature of these postures by ignoring their original intent.
While I certainly would have concerns with Christ-followers practicing yoga–especially as a spiritual exercise–I think Dr. MacArthur’s comment is a bit one-sided: “If you want a whole life, if you want your life to be what it should be, you don’t put yourself in some weird physical position, empty your mind, center on yourself and try to relieve your stress. You go to the word of God, to the gospel of Jesus Christ, you embrace in faith the sacrifice of Christ in his death and resurrection as your savior and redeemer.”
He seems to suggest–though I don’t think he actually would believe this–that physical exercise and trying to relieve stress are antithetical to the gospel. I don’t think that’s the case at all. We NEED to be healthy in every area: physical, spiritual, emotional, mental, intellectual. If any area is weak, it will bring down the other areas, too.
If yoga can be done merely as physical exercise, then I don’t see anything wrong with it; it’s the spiritual aspect to it that could be dangerous for a Christ-follower.
While the motions and even motives of Yoga are not inherently pagan or sinful (it’s just glorified stretching and kindergarten “quiet time”), its roots and practitioners are steeped in that false tradition.
John is not against stretching, quiet, or exercise here.
Christians should not associate with it simply because it is damaging to their testimony. It’s just like there is nothing inherently wrong with eating food; but when we eat it for a benefit other than Christ, it is wrong.
Romans 14 is a good reference for this, is it not?
Paul the Apostle seemed to think he could eat meat associated with pagan, demonic idol worship and leave “all the other stuff” alone. Just because A is associated with B, and B associated with C, doesn’t mean A is associated with C.
Logically, it does not follow.
We are Christians, and above this “the devil is going to get into you if you do this” kind of thinking. Paul referred to those who thought this way as “weak believers”. Strong believers (who must give up their liberty for the sake of the weak, as Pastor Doug is NOT doing) are those who understand we have been liberated from the “devil behind every bush” thinking, and now have the liberty of redeeming the sinful practices of the world for the glory of God.
I am not saying the Doug’s verion of Yoga is good—I tend to think he incorporates such practices uncritically. But, yes…in theory you can take a practice without taking the entire philosophy.
I like kneelers in pews, but that doesn’t mean I have to embrace the philosophy of Catholicism.
Philippians 4:4-7 leads up to the verses Doug quoted and they say it all for me. God promises the Christian that through prayer and supplication with thanksgiving, as they make their requests known to Him, He will give them the peace of God (His peace)- This is a peace that passes human comprehension. Surely this Christian reality of living in the experience of the incomprehensible peace of God is an adequate reason for Christians not to be looking elsewhere for peace. Perhaps many Christians are turning to worldly and pagan practices because they are not being taught, or not practicing communion with the God of all peace and comfort. John is right, why would we want to, or even need to, borrow the practices of pagan religions to achieve that which is a gift of God? This gift is the gift of knowing the nearness of our God and Savior the Lord Jesus Christ.
Some of the comments on this thread are disturbing. The question that needs to be asked is…WHY are some allowing the practices of false religions into the church? Are they implying that God’s Word is not sufficient in all things.
If a Christian wants to practice yoga on their own time, fair enough. I would be surprised their conscience wasn’t working overtime though!
However, yoga does NOT belong in the church; and if you stand at the pulpit and recommend it, you do not belong in your position.
“Practice without the entire philosophy” is what I believe is being advocated here.
I think we are focusing on the cover and not the book. We look at yoga as people in leotards stretching without talking, and there is nothing wrong with that.
Yoga in its purest sense is a worship exercise aimed at alternative divine beings. THAT is the problem.
It’s almost like reverse legalism…instead of abstaining from a behavior that could appear sinful, you are advocating that someone participate in a sinful act to prove that they are strong in belief.
While the Bible calls us to temperance, moderation and self-control in all things, such as eating and drinkng, you really can’t spin helth-conciousness into a spiritual virtue. Is it not written…?
1 Timothy 4:8 “For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things,”
and when he said
“But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection…”
I don’t think he was talking about doing squats and curls, lol!
Oh, yeah, also… Doug Padgitt is a tool of Satan. If you have any doubt about that, listen to some of his sermons on the Emergent Village website.
“All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but not all things edify” (1 Corinthians 10:23).
Why even superficially dabble in something anti-Christian and anti-biblical roots?
I so appreciate John’s non-compromising fight for the truth, and the sufficiency of God’s Word.
SDG
Just to be clear, my name is spelled Pagitt, incase someone wanted to find my tool of Satan sermons, which are not on the Emergent Village site, but can be heard in person at Solomon’s Porch.
Thanks all for the great discussion.
Padgitt said it all, if Jesus did not speak out against it, its alright- pedophilia, homosexuality, karma sutra? Ya, he and the emergents are shipwrecked.
But, he is not the greater threat. Check out your local school. Here in Cheyenne, Yoga has been taught in the local schools for years. More recently, Chi, has been introduced. Now if you know the genre, theses two occult practice cannot be removed from one another. Centering in both is the attempt to tap into spiritual power. Just as Padgitt says is the “good” life via yoga. In both disciplines symbolic logic is connect in form and word that have direct representation of spirits.
When speaking to two SBC teachers at a school here that offers Chi, they were not even willing to suggest a prayer time be offered as an alternative, which would be allowed under the Federal equal access law. Chi is taught in free time, but these two “christian” witness did not even care if another gospel was being preached, and that Christianity could also be preached, freely. Fear of their incomes obvious over-ruled the fear of the Lord.
Any church that offers the occult, any form, should be resoundly condemned!
‘Christian’ and ‘yoga’ can have very full meanings (e.g. theism, pantheism), such that putting them together (‘Christian yoga’) entails a loss of meaning for one or both terms (because you can’t have a theistic pantheism).
MacArthur seems to think that if it’s really yoga, it can’t be Christian. Fair enough. But that in no way contradicts the possibility of a real Christian doing yoga to the extent that it is not in conflict with Christianity (after all, certain physical positions do not logically entail pantheism). So it sounds like one could support Pagitt’s view (oh and by the way, note the spelling of Pagitt’s name… there’s no ‘d’) by saying that Christian yoga is full on the Christian and light on the yoga.
To say this is not to deny the sufficiency of faith in Christ anymore than watching TV, going shopping and having a 401k is denying the sufficiency of Christ. Life is big and meant to be lived to the full. The redeemed in Christ are free to enjoy the good blessings of our Creator. Yoga as mere physical and mental training (NOT as metaphysical worldview) might be a part of those blessings…
My two cents.
-Daniel-
Jason Long,
I took your comment as a reply to my earlier comment. Please correct me if I am wrong on that.
I am NOT implying a reverse legalism, nor am I implying that a “weak” Christian should practice yoga to prove he is “strong”. Paul would shudder at such a notion. The strong are to protect the weak, and even give up their liberty for them. Yet Paul VERY publicly called their position “weak”. And yes, fearing or being angry about Christians doing yoga (as people in Paul’s day feared or were angered by the meat) is a position of weak-faith. It is not a sin to be weak. Holiness and the strength of one’s faith (in Paul’s use of strong/weak here at least) are not related concepts.
So far everyone has been saying that you cannot use the practice without also getting the entire philosophy. Where is the proof for this? Where is the rationale argument that the practice MUST include the philosophy? Saying it doesn’t make it so.
JS, while I do agree with you that this potentially fits into Paul’s weak/strong dichotomy, I think there are some things that you may be overlooking.
First: Paul was really referring to a product, not a practice. He is not referring to an act used within pagan ceremonies, but a by-product of that ceremony sold on the open market.
Second: In Paul’s day buying meat that WASN’T sacrificed to idols was difficult to come by (particularly for Jews outside of Palestine). As food was necessary for daily life, this caused a great inconvenience. In such a pagan-dominated system–where the believers had little choice–Paul basically says “don’t worry about it”. Paul isn’t advocating eating meat-sacrificed-to-idols as a normal part of kingdom living, but rather as an understandable part of living in a fallen world. And even then, something that should immediately be given up out of love for fellow believers if need be.
Third: Elsewhere Paul strenuously makes a case for separated living.
Also, while others (perhaps even MacArthur) seem to be implying that the practice MUST include the philosophy (I disagree), you seem to imply that the practice can be easily divorced from the philosophy with no implications (I forcefully disagree). While I mean no disrespect to your very evident intelligence, I think that position is naive. My wife (from India–by the way where meat is still being sacrificed to idols) took years of prayer, reflection, and study of God’s word before coming to conclusions about what Hindu practices she could, and could not continue to participate in.
The issue is much more complicated, and potentially hazardous spiritually, than you seem to admit. Blessings.
I’ve heard of Hindu leaders scratching their heads over Christians doing yoga, because to them the physical part and the spiritual (Hindu) parts are inseparable. It seems to me that there are plenty of other exercises one could do.
I don’t jump up and down over it, but it creeps me out to have yoga in church.
I am grateful that this discussion appeared on National News, You Tube,and is now being blogged about. I have tried to explain to others why Christians should not dive into the yoga practice as a means of centering self, meditation etc… and was never really good at it. MaCarthur explains his points very clearly and differentiates between using the stretching excercises alone as a strong Christian, versus going full force with Yoga. Now if I just copy and mimic some stretching techniques that feel good for my back I believe Mr MacArthur is saying that would be ok. But going to a Yoga class and using the meditation techniques, centering myself and emptying my mind would go against Christianity. Seems pretty clear to me.
I have no idea why a church would want to sponsor a Yoga class in their building. Especially when one reads the definition of Yoga. Seems like spreading confusion among believers and unbelievers alike. Does the Church really need to offer this activity in the building to attract members? different subject.
“Where is the rationale argument that the practice MUST include the philosophy”?
Why practice it at all BASED on it’s known philosophy?
This discussion boggles the mind! What is the purpose for associated yourself with a practice that originated from a religion that denies Christ as Savior? I don’t care if you don’t follow the philosophy; you are still endorsing the practice. Why do we come up with so many reasons to say it is okay when it is obviously not?
Would you welcome the practices of scientology or witchcraft into the church? No? Why not? What’s the difference? Scientologist deny Christ! Wicca deny Christ! Why not let those practices in?
If you are going to tell me (with a straight face) that Jesus is okay with the practices (that originated from religions that deny Him) to be part of His church; you are also going to have to be welcoming to the others.
So, next week let’s get out our “engrams” and “magic circles” and start worshiping the Lord. Oh, wait! I forgot, we don’t believe the philosophies of those religions; we just think it’s fun and heathly.
Give me a break and God help us all!
What Flo said (Flo: I’m from GBC Columbus).
What I found even more troubling in Doug Pagitt’s comments was his inability to say anything with certainty. That should tell us more than anything else he said.
I think the only physical position we need to be in as “true” Christians is on our hands and knees. I thank Jesus Christ for John MacAurthur and his boldness.
First of all I just want to say thanks to John MacArthur for his ministry. This issue as well as so many others would be solved if we truely desired to honor God over ourselves. Yoga is not the real issue at hand here, it is the desire to please ourselves rather than to please God and keep a pure testimony.
When Paul talks about the eating of meat offered to idols he is not condemning the meat itself (the actual meat was no different than regular meat). He was saying that the association was bad and that for the sake of your testimony you should not eat it. A key passage in reference to this subject is 1 Corinthians 10:18-24 which talks about the meat offered to idols. The practice of Yoga by its association is inherantly evil. Not because stretching is evil but because of its relationship to the spiritual aspect involved in and I might add inseperable from the practice of Yoga.
The most dangerous comment that came from Mr. Pagitt was the statement that Jesus didn’t speak directly against it so it must be Ok (those were not his exact words but unfortunately that is what he was trying to say). If we can say this about Yoga then why not say it about anything at all that we want to do that isn’t directly forbidden in scripture. This statement opens up all manner of sin that we can now involve ourseves in (smoking pot for instance).
The truth is that we humans want to be free from our concience to do whatever we want to do. That is where the new idea of “Christian Liberty” came from. I say “new” not because the fact is new but because the meaning has been changed from, “freedom from the bondage of sin and death,” to, “freedom to sin without having to feel bad about it or be judged by someone else for it.”
So now we have just two options on the shelf, pleasing God or pleasing self. Are we going to chose to be different from the world or are we going to chose to fall to its temptations?
It is so refreshing, in these times of “Christian yoga,” to see a pastor take a stand as John MacArthur does here. As a former New Ager and as one who practiced yoga, I can say that if you investigate yoga, you will find that it is an integral part of Hindu beliefs and practices. In fact, bringing Hindu teachings to the West through teaching yoga was one of the goals of Hindu swamis who helped to import yoga here. This was stated explicitly in a Yoga Journal several years ago.
Famed yoga teacher B. K. S. Iyengar, who was instrumental in bringing yoga to the West, says that yoga “is a science which liberates one’s mind from the bondage to the body and leads it towards the soul. When the mind reaches and merges with the soul, the soul is freed and remains thereafter in peace and beatitude,” (B. K. S. Iyengar, The Tree of Yoga, [Boston: Shambhala, 1988], 5). [This is from one of my articles on yoga on my website at christiananswersforthenewage.org]
A friend of mine in ministry has said that yoga is to Hinduism as the Lord’s Supper is to Christianity, and he’s right. Yoga and the Lord’s Supper are not religions in and of themselves, but they are both an integral part of a religious belief system.
Twenty years ago, and even ten years ago, how many Christians were trying to rationalize doing yoga? Not very many. So why now? Because it’s a popular in the culture, imo. That in and of itself is as sad a commentary on the church as is the fact that yoga is now being practiced in the church.
For anyone who thinks that Yoga exercises (postures) are valid and safe, please get a copy of Dave Hunt’s book, Yoga and the Body of Christ and Caryl Matrisciana’s DVD, Yoga Uncoiled. You will not only have a deeper understanding of the true nature of Yoga, but you will also see how dangerous it is to the spiritual welfare of the believer. Yoga is not mere exercise. The postures themselves are specifically designed to worship the gods of Hinduism.
John H – I thought I was certain and clear. I find nothing troubling abut yoga. Seems pretty clear to me.
Doug: “Nothing troubling,” despite all that’s been posted here?
Daniel,
You wrote: [Regarding Paul's discussion of meat sacrificed to idols] “He was saying that the association was bad and that for the sake of your testimony you should not eat it.”
While I agree (basically) with the main point of your post, you are dead wrong on your interpretation of Paul. Paul was NOT saying the association was bad. He, in fact, was saying that the association was not relevant to a Christian (particularly a strong Christian), because a strong Christian is “above” any such associations. Paul exhortation to refrain from the meat has nothing to do with one’s Christian testimony–as you claim. Instead, he exhorts us to refrain out of love and accomodation of the weak believer. The weak believer, by definition, (in that scenario) is the one who sees a negative association. A strong believer, by definition, does not.
While Paul elsewhere makes clear calls for separated living, 1 Cor 10 is not speaking to that issue.
Anyway, thanks for your post. I whole-heartedly agree with your assessment of Doug’s comment. The appeal to the argument that “Jesus-didn’t-condemn-it” is slippery (we could use that same logic to support abortion).
Just change the name and “poof” – exercize. There is a problem, but there are many more significant issues in the “easy target” ambiance of the evangelical journey. After yoga let’s take care of the smurf problem and then burn Harry Potter in effigy. A problem? How about 95% of evangelical churches have no church wide prayer meeting during the week. Yea, might be a problem.
Without a revival the church will continue to do just what I’m doing, talk. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Good night, John boy.
Josh,
Thak you very much for your post. I can tell by your comment that you have truly searched the scripture to find the answers it contains for everyday life. Even if Jesus didn’t directly state it.
Regarding my statement about the association of the meat creating a bad testimony, I believe that this passage clearly states this point. The whole passage says that for the sake of the weaker believer they were not to eat it. The association of the meat was creating a problem for the weaker believers of that time. That is why Paul was telling the corinthian church not to eat it. If they did they were creating a bad tesimony to the weaker believer. In verse 28 of 1 Corinthians 10 it says, “if any man say to you “this is offered to idols” eat it not for his sake that showed it.” If a man were to say this and they were to eat it any way, wouldn’t that create a bad testimony? It would be like someone coming up to you, mabye not even a believer, and saying, “that thing you are doing is offensive to me.” For you as a beleiver to keep on dong it would no doubt create a bad testimony of your willingness to set aside your own desires to serve the needs of others as Christ would have done and did do by coming to earth to die on the cross for our sins.
Thanks again for your thoughtful post
In Christ
Daniel
Awesome response by J. Mac… He once again presented the gospel so clearly. That other guy was speechless at the end of the program.
1 John 2:16 note in John MacArthur’s NASB study bible says “While the world’s philosphies and ideologies and much that it offers may appear attractive and appealing, that is deception. It’s true and pervasive nature is evil, harmful, ruinous, and satanic. Its deadly theories are raised up against the knowledge of God and hold souls of men captive.” Why one who is a professing Christian would embrace the practice of an idolator is baffling the fact that Mr. Pagitt claims to be a pastor who arranges yoga sessions in what is supposed to be The Church of God of the Bible is even more confounding.
As an evangelical Christian who has and does enjoy yoga, I would like to add my perspectives.
- Yoga is about self awareness and self-mastery, not to mention practicing calmness and self control amid tension
- Yoga is not really about emptying the mind, but about focusing and listening to one’s body – it’s about self-care and self-stewardship
- I suppose you can take the yoga positions to the level of worshiping Hindu deities, but I highly doubt that by practicing awareness and self-discipline that you are in any way worshiping anything at all
- While self-mastery can not bring you salvation, it does help us develop and practice self-control, a biblical virtue
- Christianity has a severely underdeveloped theology of the physical self-care, and literally NO physical disciplines to integrate with our Christian life (worship aerobics may be fun, but it’s hardly approaching any serious integration of spiritual practice and physical disciplines). This is largely due to an almost literal hatred of the body which comes from (a) a poor understanding of the use of the term “flesh” in the NT, which does NOT usually refer to our physical bodies, (b) the idea that too much self-care is a waste since these bodies will be discarded, and (c) an anti-pleasure theology that rejects the goodness of the created body and the Christian enjoyment of sex and food without being mastered by such.
- I highly recommend Anglican Peter Toon’s book Meditating As a Christian: Waiting upon God, which has one very good chapter on yoga, where he recommends it with some warnings – a very balanced, if not educated and practical view.
As to Christians ruining their testimony by doing yoga, I would say
- they already have a negative testimony by lacking any cogent and useful physical practices to integrate with spirituality, beyond fasting and praise aerobics.
- our failure to recognize common truth and wisdom in other traditions, as Paul did on Mars Hill with the Greek philosophers, is a bad testimony and causes people to reject our gospel because we are rejecting valid common truths and wisdom
- Romans 14 is about freedom – to obey our conscience, to not condemn others, and yes, to be considerate if our freedom might cause others to stumble. However, Romans 14 is about balancing these prerogatives, not cowing in to Pharisaical narrowness every time some religionist is offended.
I have expanded on my comment above at
http://www.twoorthree.net/2007/09/christians-and-.html
Doug:
I guess I wasn’t clear, so let me clarify. You were clear about what you think about yoga. What I meant was that when it came to what Jesus said or would have done or taught, that’s when your propensity to a lack of clarity came through.
Thank you that someone is prepared to speak out against this New Age epidemic that is infiltrating the Church of Jesus Christ.
Am I right in thinking that Macarthurs teaching will also includes the Martial Arts like Judo and Karate?
I can’t tell you how relieved I am to know that some have really searched within themselves (probably during a yoga session) and found reasons to accept the practice of a cult.
For those who keep refering to people who defend God’s Word as Pharisee’s, I ask that you reexamine who the Pharisee’s are. Pharisee’s are those who stand up for the traditions and practices of religion (yoga) and don’t stand up for God.
I realize we all live in glass houses; but, as a Christian community, we should help each other wash the windows.
As Christians we should be more consumed with what glorifys God. If you truly believe endorsing the practice of a false religion is right; by all means, continue.
I was thrilled to hear John Mac… stand for Truth. We are to abstain from all APPEARANCES of evil. After hearing Doug on a couple of debates I have serious concerns about his convictions or lack thereof. Caryl Matrisciana has a lot to say about Yoga in her DVD “Yoga Uncoiled.” Caryl was born and raised in India and presents a clear and concise definition of the practice. Furthermore, Hindu experts, leaders and teachers who teach and practice Yoga have clearly and adamantly stated that Christianity and Yoga do NOT mix. The body positions of Yoga CANNOT be separated from the core practice of Hinduism and as such are an inherent PART OF Hindu philosophy which teaches that man and nature are ONE with divinity. It is NOT Biblical whatsoever!
Nevergall,
I just wanna tell you that I’ve been encouraged by our outrage at this discussion. Unfortunately, where the Emerging Church is involved, nothing surprises me anymore. It’s painfully obvious that if human beings want to do something, they’ll rationalize their way out of conviction and into what they want to do. And people will think them sharp, intelligent, and enlightened for it.
For I want you to know how great a struggle I have on your behalf and for those who are at Laodicea, and for all those who have not personally seen my face, that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument. … See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in HIM you have been made complete, and HE is the head over all rule and authority. — Colossians 2:1-4, 8-10.
I think the thing that needs to be remembered is that the Emergent “conversation” flatly denies the clarity and authority of scripture. MacArthur’s excellent book, The Truth War, and some articles on this site about Brian McLaren’s wildly extra-biblical ideas (as well as the Emergents own site and podcasts) demonstrate the truly apostate nature of the EC.
They are hardly people whose perspectives we want to consider on spiritual matters.
This is a song (I hope it’s not their idea of a praise song) from an Emergent podcast. There have been others that reveal the angst-ridden, bitter, dreary, almost nihilistic
view they have. Doesn’t look much like power, love and a sound mind, does it? Oh, I forgot, they’re just being “honest”.
Believe
You’ve been trying to tame that cynical tone
But there’s so much going wrong in side of your home and there’s
So much going wrong in every time zone
And sometimes you turn on the news at ten on CNN and say,
“It feels hard to speak in any other way”
Try to put it in perspective, try to see with the eyes of faith
While your faithfulness varies from month to month, feels like
Waiting for someone to call your bluff while the
Makers of the star spangled Christs that glow in the dark make you mad
And you start to wonder if the things you do are just as bad
And you want to believe in Jesus
Without a laughtrack happiness and the pre-recorded applauses
And it’s hard when along the way you see Him pull away
The beards from the chins of your Santa Clauses
But you still want to believe
But you still want to believe that He speaks in this
Beautiful, horrible, beautiful, horrible world
Where people work for peace and people kiss their mothers where
People can be so cruel to one another, and you
Want to believe that He even speaks specifically to you
Is there something that He wants you to do?
And you want to believe in Jesus
Without a laughtrack happiness and the pre-recorded applauses
And it’s hard when along the way you see Him pull away
The beards from the chins of your Santa Clauses
But you still want to believe
But you still want to believe
And you can sing
You can sing for joy
You don’t have to sing it cheap, you can
Sing hallelujah without putting your conscience to sleep
You can sing hallelujah
You can sing hallelujah
You can sing hallelujah
(my reaction upon suffering through this song was…Huh?)
I want to state one of the reasons I have always loved John MacArthur is because he usually always speaks in black and white terms.
His sermons and books have aided me and helped improve my walk with the Lord.
John however is in error here.
“Well that would depend on how the yoga is conducted. If it’s just purely exercise, and you’re a strong Christian, it probably wouldn’t have any impact on your faith.”
John has got to know you cant seperate the exercise of yoga from the religious practice of yoga.
They are one.
The Hindu swamis have been out there shaking their heads in disbelief of supposed Christian yoga.
They know the truth.
Why dont we?
John then goes on to suggest a Christian would not want to practice yoga.
John needs to repent, retract ,and clarify his statement.
Ive got to say this is the first time I can remember John not speaking in black and white terms.
It is good to see Doug Pagitt continue to speak and show what Emergent is really all about.
Keep talking Doug.
I figured after you were exposed in your debate with Bob Dewaay you would have retired.
I hope you continue to share your views of the new religion you, Dan Kimball and others have created.
Peace
Tim Wirth
I recommend a listen to a podcast on the Emergent Site called “Finding Our God in the Other”. Very revealing.
http://www.emergentvillage.com/podcast/samir-selmanovic-on-finding-our-god-in-the-other
Thank you Mike and AMEN to God’s message (through Paul) in Colosse.
Mr. Pagitt,
I’ve often wondered why the Emergent Movement is so enamored with the the world and it’s way. You proaly call yourself a minister of the Gospel, yet you and other emergent pastors have abosutely no problem rolling around in the same muck as the world. Yes, I know that Jesus associate with tax collectors and sinners, but he always called them away from there old ways. He didn’t use there worldly ways to draw them to Himself. Emergent pastors, on the other hand, parade worldly ways from their pulpits and tack on a bit of Christianese save face, and send masses back to their old ways.
Christian yoga…this is oxymoronic. Does anyone read the posts by those who’ve practiced yoga in the past. Marcia’s words were very clear–you cannot separate the exercise from the philosophy.
Mr. Pagitt, Pastor John MacArthur was doing what you should be doing. Exhorting people to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ to saved–not endorsing occultic practices that will eventually lead many into deeper bondage to satan.
Another good little verse from the Bible is Ephesians 5:1-21. for the sake of time and space. I’ll highlight emphasize v.1 and v.11-12–the context is very important though…v.1 “be imitators of God as beloved children”, and v.11-12, “take no part in in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. v.12, “For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret.
I have the opportunity to minister among Asians who have incorporated yoga, especially tantric yoga with buddhism. This syncretism has created an extremely difficult barrier to overcome. The people are very resistant to the gospel. It’s ironic, the occult practices that I pray against here in Asia, are the ones you endorse from your pulpit. I encourage you Mr. Pagitt, listen to those who have been set free from this bondage and do a little research before you promote it in your fellowship. it’s not the churches job to make people flexible and happy…preach repentance toward God, faith in Jesus Christ, and make disciples that will take the gospel to the ends of the earth.
Unto the King Eternal,
wade
Ugh. My comment was removed by the moderator, but my comments do live at the url I provided (thanks for not removing it), in which I am critical of the anti-yoga religionists talking about things they know little about here. So please read and comment on my response if you please.
http://www.twoorthree.net/2007/09/christians-and-.html
“I find it heartbreaking when someone allows the practices of a religion that denies Christ as Savior into a building designed to worship Him.”
Me too– that’s why I’ve abandoned Easter and Christmas, and everything related to them, refuse to use words like “Thursday” and “Saturday” because of their pagan origins and…
Oh wait. I didn’t do that.
And I’ll bet neither have you.
While I would like to have heard Doug (who I consider a friend!) make a statement about some kind of boundaries (“Of course, often Hindu spirituality IS woven into yoga and that should be avoided by those following Jesus”) I’m basically with him. Simply because people who don’t follow Jesus meditate doesn’t mean I can’t if I’m meditating on the right thing. Ditto prayer, serving the poor, and in my opinion yoga.
For me, yoga is a great means of stretching and exercise (which, looking at the average American Pew-Potato, we could all use a bit more of) and more importantly, a time of prayer- a time to prostrate myself before God, focus on the words of the Bible I have just read and PRAY.
We don’t need to abandon every practice simply because of non-christian origins. We redeem them. Some practices may be antithetical to the gospel and need to be avoided all together, but MacArthur and others here have failed to make that case as regards yoga. I especially love the guys who claim that Paul’s eating-meat-sacrificed-to-idols argument is basically anti-yoga- when he says clearly “For why should my freedom be limited by what someone else thinks? If I can thank God for the food and enjoy it, why should I be condemned for eating it?” His point is to protect the consciences of weaker Christians…
So
1. You claiming that I can’t do yoga puts you in the position of “weaker brother”. If that’s where you want to be, okay… but most who push an anti-yoga agenda do so because they think they are more mature and “discerning.”
2. Paul’s argument would lead me to believe that it’s wrong for me to try to get you to participate with me. Also, for me to do it in front of you? Probably not great since your conscience is weak in this area. But for you to forbid me from doing yoga stretches as I pray?
“Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.”
I want those who criticize this practice on the basis of “pagan origins” to put up or shut up. Are you willing to never again have a Christmas tree? To never use the phrase “Easter” or “Wednesday”?
If not, if you actually believe that such pagan practices can be redeemed and turned towards the worship of the one true God, how about a little benefit of the doubt here?
I thought this was a great comment by Dr. MacArthur: ““Well, that would depend on how the yoga is conducted. If it’s just purely exercise and you’re a strong Christian, it probably wouldn’t have any impact on your faith”
seeker,
“anti-yoga religionists”
Is this your way of calling those of us who disgree with yoga being practiced by churches “Pharisee’s”.
Fair enough. I understand some are quick to mislabel those who defend God a Pharisee.
Your provided link mentions the following:
“our failure to recognize common truth and wisdom in other traditions, as Paul did on Mars Hill with the Greek philosophers, is a bad testimony and causes people to reject our gospel because we are rejecting valid common truths and wisdom”
I encourage you to take a longer look at Acts 17. Paul knew that the Athenians did not know the OT, and he quoted from three of their own poets (and he does so as more of a display of their ignorance). Paul is not (and never did) endorse or welcome the practices and/or philosophies of any false religious system (including Greek poets) into the Christian Church. At no point does Paul claim there are “common truths and wisdom”.
It would seem to me that this particular area of living falls into the category where Christians are guided by the Holy Spirit, in accordance with the scriptures and the truths within, to make their own personal decision with regard to their own practice of yoga.
One of the biggest problems with the whole debate is that the term “yoga” is thrown around with different meanings by different people. Apparently, we all have different perspectives on it because we’ve probably all seen it done in different ways. To get right to the point, the area of concern comes when a Christian allows spiritual sensitivities in the practice of true Yoga (in it’s purist sense) to invade his/her own mind. However, I personally know people who have done exercises that have come out of Yoga, but are practiced devoid of spiritual connotations. In fact, I know that some even go so far as turning the exercises around and making the time of exercise a time of meditation and prayer. Although I have never tried it before myself, I do think it would be possible to perform the exercises commonly associated with Yoga after reading the Word of God, while simultaneously praying through what was read and meditating on it. Just because the exercises may have been “invented” in the context of Yoga does not mean that those same exercises can be performed in a more Biblically oriented way.
I think when people use the term Yoga, it may often be used without any reference to what exactly they are referring to. The best illustration I can think of is when a non-Christian calls someone else a Christian merely because of the external tangibles that they understand come along with being a Christian. That has no real bearing on whether or not the person they are referring to as a Christian is truly a Christian, but more on their understanding of the term. It is in this sense only in which I believe Christians may in the eyes of God have the freedom to learn physical exercises from those who practice Yoga without learning the inward emotional, spiritual, and intellectual practices.
The most honest and well-taught Christian understands that God’s world contains things that have been used in sinful contexts but are not sinful in and of themselves. Being able to separate those things out is not always easy, but simply dismissing them entirely is not always accurate either.
I would in no way advocate a believer learning about Yoga unless they are well-grounded in the scriptures, and even recommend that believer maintaining regular accountability concerning his/her understanding and practices with exercises drawn from Yoga with another Christian.
We are to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves, and above all, God’s glory is at stake. The individual believer must make his/her own decision in this, and should take into account those who might know about their practices and who may be affected by them.
In my opinion, Pastor MacArthur chose his words carefully with the understanding that all issues brought up in public media concerning what Christians can and cannot do are merely symptoms of the greater problem of sin. I personally believe that he very rightly bypassed the major points of discussion over Yoga details and terminology, and took the opportunity to explain the gospel in simple terms to a vast and listening audience. Sometimes there are bigger issues at stake, and we ought to carefully consider whether or not the question we’re asked should be answered as-is, or should be guided into a different issue of more significant impact. Probably one of the biggest mistakes of the American Christian church is its focus on fixing issues in the culture without addressing the root. Out of the heart come the issues of life.
Minor correction:
Just because the exercises may have been “invented” in the context of Yoga does not mean that those same exercises CANNOT be performed in a more Biblically oriented way.
Mr. Pagitt,
I’ve often wondered why the Emergent Movement is so enamored with the the world and it’s ways. You probably consider yourself a minister of the Gospel, yet you and other emergent pastors have absolutely no problem rolling around in the same muck as the world. Yes, I know that Jesus associated with tax collectors and sinners, but he always called them away from their old ways. He didn’t use their worldly ways to draw them to Himself. Emergent pastors, on the other hand, parade worldly ways from their pulpits and tack on a bit of Christianese to save face, and then send the masses back to their old ways.
Christian yoga…this is oxymoronic. Did anyone read the posts by those who’ve practiced yoga in the past? Marcia’s words were very clear–you cannot separate the exercise from the philosophy.
Mr. Pagitt, Pastor John MacArthur was doing what you should be doing–exhorting people to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved–not endorsing occultic practices that will eventually lead many into deeper bondage to satan.
Another “good little verse from the Bible” is Ephesians 5:1-21. for the sake of time and space. I’ll highlight and emphasize v.1 and v.11-12–the context is very important though…v.1 “be imitators of God as beloved children”, and v.11-12, “take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. v.12, “For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret.
I have the opportunity to minister among Asians who have incorporated yoga, especially tantric yoga with buddhism. This syncretism has created an extremely difficult barrier to overcome. The people are very resistant to the gospel. It’s sadly ironic, the occultic practices that I pray against here in Asia, are the same ones you endorse from your pulpit. I encourage you Mr. Pagitt, listen to those who have been set free from this bondage and do a little research before you promote it in your fellowship. It’s not the churches job to make people flexible and happy…preach repentance toward God, faith in Jesus Christ, and make disciples that will take the gospel to the ends of the earth.
w
I’ve been hearing again and again the idea that, “All truth is God’s truth” and Acts 17 has been used to justify that “motto”. It is trotted out to say we should use, embrace and immerse ourselves in the wordly culture in order to win others to Christ (never mind that Paul did not immerse himself in the culture, was troubled by the idlols, warned the Athenians of the coming judgment, told them to repent, was sneered at and then moved on.)
According to this philosophy, nothing is off limits, because, supposedly, if a Christian is practicing it, it or listening to it or reading it, then it is now somehow sanctified. After all, we’ve eliminated the dichotomy of sacred/secular. In this new paridigm we can use secular music to worship our holy God and grow closer to him through Hindu medidative practices.
I’ve really been wrestling with what exactly is wrong with the motto, “All truth is God’s truth” and I stumbled upon it this week in reading Paul Little’s “Know What You Believe” to my teenage son. In discussing the inspiration of scripture he says, “To say that “all” Scripture is inspired does not mean all the attitudes and ideas are “God’s truth”. Some are the words of evil and foolish people, even of Satan himself. Such parts are recorded as accurate information, true pictures of the people’s words and the circumstances.” How much more so can we say this about the things of the world??? Just because a Christian “find(s) a whole and complete and healed life” through yoga, does not mean he has found God’s truth as reavealed in the Scriptures. And just because Rob Bell says he finds truth in Buddhist writings, does not mean the truth he has found is “God’s truth”. Little discusses the speeches of Job’s friends: “Not all are equaly God’s truth and authoritative, but inspiration guarantees that what each speaker said was accurately recorded. A good rule for any passage is to check the participants and their belief systems.” I suggest the same applies for texts and practices outside the Bible (perhaps doubly so!)
Bob,
Correct me if I am wrong but by your statement “Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules” I could not help but come to the conclusion that you do not believe that Christians have to obey rules. When we as Christians died with Christ we did not die to rules altogether; in fact the only rule we died to was the rule of sin in our lives. Before we were saved we were bound to sin; when we were saved we were freed from that but became servants to another law (Romans 6:16). If we are saved we are servant to righteousness. either way we are not free to do anything we want to without sinning.
I don’t care what the subject is, whether music, Yoga, etc., the main principle is the same: YOU CANNOT WORSHIP GOD IN THE WORLD’S WAYS. That is just all there is to it. Why would Christians desire to please themselves so much that they would take a pagan worship practice and try to worship a Holy, Just, Jealous, and Righteous God with it? There are certain things that are not important issues (should I get chocolate, should I get vanilla?), but I think that anything that can ruin your testimony as a believer by mingling with the world is a very important issue.
I don’t care what the subject is, whether music, Yoga, etc., the main principle is the same: YOU CANNOT WORSHIP GOD IN THE WORLD’S WAYS. That is just all there is to it.
Very well-said. I have a very relevant quote from R. L. Dabney on this subject. He specifically refers to preaching, which is of first importance and is under attack as “a violent act against the audience” by Doug Pagitt and other Emerging folks. So let this ring out against that, as well as trying to “worship God in the world’s ways.”
And it is exceedingly instructive to note that there are three stages through which preaching has repeatedly passed with the same results. The first is that in which scriptural truth is faithfully presented in scriptural garb. That is to say that not only are all the doctrines asserted which truly belong to the revealed system of redemption, but they are presented in that dress and connection in which the Holy Spirit has presented them without seeking any other from human science. This state of the pulpit marks the golden age of the church. The second is the transition stage. In this the doctrines taught are still those of the scriptures, but their relations are molded into conformity with the prevalent human dialectics. God’s truth is now shorn of a part of its power over the soul. A third stage is then near in which not only are the methods and explanations conformed to the philosophy of the day but the doctrines themselves contradict the truth of the Word. Again and again have the clergy traveled this descending scale and always with the same disastrous result. … May we ever be content to exhibit Bible doctrine in its own Bible dress. — Dabney, Evangelical Eloquence.
“We don’t need to abandon every practice simply because of non-Christian origins. We redeem them”.
“Are you willing to never again have a Christmas tree? To never use the phrase “Easter” or “Wednesday”?
People who use God’s creations (meat, animals, trees, etc.) for their own pagan practices are irrelevant. However, this would be a perfect example of your “we redeem them” reply. If Christmas trees where created by human hands (wooden statues, etc.), you would have a point; and no Christian should welcome them into their home.
Easter and Wednesday (Saturday, etc.) are titles. They are not practices. Yoga is not a title; it is the practice itself. I understand that easter is also the name of a pagan goddess. However, easter is not the practice of worshipping a pagan goddess. You are trying to separate the title from the practice and when it comes to yoga you cannot because the title is the practice.
Redeeming is to recover ownership of. What exactly are you “redeeming” by practicing yoga? If anything, the Hindu’s should be “redeeming” yoga from Christians. I say amen to that!
We should be welcoming the hindu into our church and preaching the gospel to them. However, we should not be welcoming the practices of hinduism into the church.
This is just my opinion; perhaps that means I am “weak”!
Dave Hunt has written a great book on yoga check it out…
http://www.bereancall.org
OOOps wrong website, here’s the correct one:
wwww.thebereancall.org
It seems a true, regenerate child of God (from my experience) IS WHOLE. The emergents seek more wholeness because they’ve never heard the untainted Word. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of Christ.
It doesn’t seem like Mr. Pagitt is interested in Truth.
“Correct me if I am wrong but by your statement “Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules” I could not help but come to the conclusion that you do not believe that Christians have to obey rules.”
You’re kidding, right?
That’s not MY statement- it’s a quote from Colossians ch 2.
Of course there are rules… I told you I would have liked Doug to make a statement as to some boundaries.
What I am saying is that the boundary is NOT the Regulative Principle.
Nevergall- you make no sense. (And did you actually “amen” yourself???)
If I can welcome pagan religious practice such as Christmas trees, if I can call my days by the names of pagan gods and STILL serve Jesus in and through it all, doing yoga stretches while I pray and meditate on God’s word certainly isn’t going to harm me, as Dr MacArthur said.
“YOU CANNOT WORSHIP GOD IN THE WORLD’S WAYS.” You mean like with “worldy” instruments like… the organ?
You DO know the same argument was use to say that the prgan had no place in Christian worship, right? (“In Popery there was a ridiculous and unsuitable imitation [of the Jews]. While they adorned their temples, and valued themselves as having made the worship of God more splendid and inviting, they employed organs, and many other such ludicrous things, by which the Word and worship of God are exceedingly profaned (emphasis added–RB), the people being much more attached to those rites than to the understanding of the divine Word…” Whatever may be the practice in recent times of the churches of Holland, the Synods of the Reformed Dutch Church, soon after the Reformation, pronounced very decidedly against the use of instrumental music in public worship. The National Synod at Middleburg, in 1581, declared against it, and the Synod of Holland and Zealand, in 1594, adopted this strong resolution; “That they would endeavor to obtain of the magistrate the laying aside of organs, and the singing with them in the churches….” The Provincial Synod of Dort also inveighed severely against their use…The Rev. Charles H. Spurgeon, …upholds an apostolic simplicity of worship. The great congregation which is blessed with the privilege of listening to his instructions has no organ “to assist” them in singing…”)
All I’m saying is that I’m in agreement with Dr MacArthur when he says it’s possible to use yoga as purely physical exercise and have my faith remain perfectly sound. I take it even a step further and say that as part of my morning routine of reading Scripture, meditating on it, praying, when I add in the physical postures of yoga, I’m not sinning but am being a good steward of the body has given me.
Ahh- this is beautiful. Take “musical instruments” out of this quote by Augustine and insert “yoga stretching” and you have the same argument being made by some here… According to Augustine, “musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship” (354 A.D., describing the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius).
I mean- WHY would we use instruments in worship??? the PAGANS do that
“(And did you actually “amen” yourself???)”
Bob, you will have to describe where I amen myself. Please don’t disrespect me by misrespresenting my comments. I have not disrespected you”. I stated that I would support (amen) the hindu’s recovering their ownership (redeeming) of yoga from the Christian Church.
“We don’t need to abandon every practice simply because of non-Christian origins. We redeem them”.
What are you redeeming by practicing yoga? You agree it is a pagan practice; so I assume (based on your comment) you are redeeming it. Explain how you are doing this?
After reading the comments, especially of those who promote Yoga as a harmless exercise, the question that must be asked is: If Yoga is harmless, what harm would there be for a Christian to practice Christian Astrology? Christian Goddess Worship? Christian Kabbalah? Christian New Age? Christian Shamanism? Christian Reincarnation? Christian Tai Chi? Christian Wicca? Christian Witchcraft? or Christian Zen Buddhism?
Believe it or not, these belief-systems do exist. They are on the internet. They exist because people believe they are valid forms of practice and worship.
And what about Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witnesses? Can one be a Christian and uphold the practices and teachings of the Latter-Day Saints and the Watchtower Society?
All of the above are self-proclaimed forms of Christianity, but they aren’t Christian. While they pay lip-service to Jesus Christ, sadly, their hearts are far from Him (Matthew 15:7-9).
While discerning Christians would balk at the mere thought of practicing a “Christian Wicca” ritual, or have their palms read by a “Christian Psychic,” or seek physical healing from a “Christian Shaman,” professing Christians openly welcome the Hindu pagan practice into their homes and church recreational programs–mainly because the one promoting Yoga says it is merely a harmless exercise.
Christians, don’t believe it! Once Yoga establishes a foothold in a Christian church, it opens the door for other forms of the New Age Movement to enter. Regardless of how it is packaged, Yoga is self-worship (“Self-realization”). Self-worship is idolatry.
“Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry (1 Corinthians 10:14).
Yoga postures are specifically designed to worship Hindu gods.
“Little children, guard yourselves from idols” (1 John 5:21).
Yoga and its postures are vain, worldly traditions of men, and are to be avoided.
“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ” (Colossians 2:8).
Those who promote Yoga have been influenced by Yoga instructors or by materials promoting Yoga, such as books and videos. But God’s holy word plainly warns:
“For You have abandoned Your people, the house of Jacob, because they are filled with influences from the east, and they are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they strike bargains with the children of foreigners” (Isaiah 2:6).
Christians, for Jesus’ sake, don’t allow the false teachers of our day to woo and cuddle you into a practice that God despises. Guard your hearts. Stand strong in Jesus Christ and for the truth of His word (Acts 20:27-31; Jude 3).
I think Augustine finally came around to say that it was okay for the people to sing in church… as long as they didn’t enjoy it!! How would that translate into this debate? “It’s okay for Christians to practise yoga, as long as they don’t…”
PS: I’m with JMac on this one.
Bob,
I am glad to hear that I was wrong in my understanding of your statement. “Do you mean worldly instruments like the organ?” Music in a church service is in no way comparable to Yoga (seeing how David wrote most of his psalms to be played by instruments). Again I am not saying that stretching is bad, but you have admitted yourself that Yoga is more than this. You have admitted that you practice Yoga as part of your morning devotions. By the way MacArthur did not say that doing Yoga AS A PART OF YOUR DEVOTIONS is not going to harm you. You have admitted that Yoga is a form of worship. It doesn’t get much more obvious that Yoga is a pagan form of worship (just as the rock beat is a pagan form of worship).
“WHY would we use instruments in worship??? the PAGANS do that.” Exactly my point. The pagans do use instruments in their worship. And today’s churches are adopting this same music into their song services. I say again “YOU CANNOT WORSHIP GOD IN THE WORLDS WAYS.” This is one thing, but people today go beyond this and try to worship God in the PAGAN’S WAYS! The first one is dishonoring and the second is blasphemous.
In my second sentence I meant to say “Music ‘if it is God-honoring’ is in no way comparable to Yoga.
This same Christian musician, whether a rock ‘n’ roller or a concert violinist, would very likely object to electric guitars or chamber music in church. Art designed to please and to gratify the senses has its place, but worship belongs to the Word of God. Here, theological truth must take priority. The purpose is not to entertain the congregation but to convict them of sin and convert them to Christ. The audience is not the culture but God, whom the entire congregation is seeking to glorify―in his terms, not ours. — Gene Edward Veith
seeker
In your defense of yoga, you included the word SELF at least 13 times. You promote self-love. Jesus said “…If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.”(Luke 9:23 ESV)
Dr. MacArthur did a great job of summing up the gospel message in a very short space of time. Did he get make a perfect rebuttal of yoga? No, but considering what he said, it should be clear that true believers have everything they need in Jesus Christ.
Bud Press’ blurb @ 1:07 am sept. 16 really sums it all up. Excellent points, great supporting scripture. Amen.
Unfortunately, for most of us the term yoga has been Westernized to such a degree that we do not think of it in terms such as Bud pointed to. i.e. subbing in Christian (blank), like Christian wicca, psychic etc…However, this is exactly what we love to do in the west.
The irony, however, is that most of those in favour of practicing yoga (“new americans”, “emergent churchees”, etc…)are the very people who would accuse the West, westerners, and America of being colonizers and destroying cultures of the world under the banner of the American flag, democracy and imperialism. The irony is that they are practicing the same principles, taking what they want, calling it what they want, and rewriting an entire peoples belief system for their own benefit. Sounds very imperialistic and colonial to me.
With regards to the John MacArthur and Dave Pagent discussion you had I wanted to share something with you that we all need to be aware of, escpecially for Christian parents.
A quick background; I am a born again, conservative, Evangelical, Christian. I am teaching my children from a biblical worldview, using Ray’s “How to bring your children to Christ and keep them there, as well as Branon Howse’s “Christian Worldview for Children.” I have been praying and working on “getting their heart fertile” and have taught them about Christ. Although they’ve “prayed” the sinner’s prayer, I’ve explained to them that this doesn’t really make them a Christian, because there is more to being a Christian then just saying a prayer. I told them one day they’ll understand that being a Christian means giving up everything for Christ and that they must turn away from sin once and for all and trust completely in Jesus. This is something they will learn as they grow up. I ask them to pray every day that the Holy Spirit will guide them and keep them close. They know about heaven and hell, they know there is a spiritual world and they know Satan is a liar and he has his helpers, demons. My children ARE NOT afraid, they are aware, nor is it something we dwell on. That said; let me explain what happened.
My daughter, now 9 years old, went through a horrible experience last year at school. Before Christmas 2006 she started to get angry and hostile about going to church and praying. She became so difficult (beyond the normal kid stuff like refusing to go to bed) it was causing so many problems and grief. This went on until finally in March this year it peaked. While we were in bed reading our devotions and as we went to pray she started to scream and cry hysterically. When I asked her what was wrong, she said that “Lucifer” (what we call satan) whispers in her ear that God and Jesus aren’t real and that I shouldn’t pray.” I tried calming her down for a good half hour but then I asked her to tell me what was happening, she said she was seeing things in her room, red eyes in her closet, noises that would wake her up and that she kept hearing voices telling her not to pray.
Of course I was horrified. I immediately prayed with her, asking for comfort and peace and that Christ would remove any influences by satan. She slept soundly that night for the first time in months. I spoke to an elder in my church about it and she suggested it might be a satanic attack and to pray for an answer about where it might be coming from. She also suggested reading Neil T. Anderson’s The Seduction of our Children.” Well, I did that, and not a week later, I received a notice from school showing a schedule of Yoga classes they had been teaching 3 times a week since September, (unbeknownst to me). I was shocked, it was never discussed, nor were we notified of it being taught. So, I started praying like mad and after looking into it further found out that they were shutting lights off in the room, lighting candles, being asked to do “OOOHHHMMMM” chants, legs crossed, arms bent, fingers pinched, eyes closed and to not think of anything and be at peace in your mind. They were practising the Yoga prayer positions for their 330,000+ gods and goddesses and when I asked the principal why they were doing this as it was Hinduism and a religion, I was told it was “only” an exercise. I corrected him and the teacher, saying simple Pilates or stretching was excercise, Yoga was prayer positions and opening oneself to spiritual influences and an integral part of Hinduism. I sent pages of information for them to read on Yoga FROM Yogis saying how dangerous it was to practise Yoga if you don’t know what it was you were doing and then explained it from my Christian perspective. I told him he may not believe in a spirit world, but my children and I do. That by having them practise Yoga they were potentially allowing demonic influences to affect our children and that this was something I could not allow my children to be practising.
Well, I took her out; which my principal was not happy about as he had to find someone else to watch her for those 45 minutes 3 x a week. We prayed and I had others pray for her as well. Within a month, she was back to her old self. This was all done in a compassionate, prayerful and kind way, no accusations, no demands to end Yoga in the classes, but a request that they understand what yoga really was and to act upon that.
Did the Yoga have anything to do with her behaviour, the voices and reaction to prayer and church? Maybe, maybe not. I’m not suggesting she was possesed, but in my heart I know there was a spiritual attack happening. The answer I received so quickly, the fact that her personality changed from anger and hostility, to calm and happy, although she is shy to say her prayers outloud, she went back to praying and the fact the “voices” disappeared, that the red eyes in her closet stopped appearing and she sleeps soundly at night immediately after she was removed from Yoga and prayed over. Yah, I’d say it had a lot to do with it.
So as a heads up to other parents, check out whether your school is teaching Yoga in class or during phys-ed period. You have a right to have your children dismissed since it is a religious practise. This year, (so far at least) there is no Yoga being taught in our school, Praise God, and we will continue to pray for His intervention in the schools here.
Christine,
My heart aches for you. Maybe it’s time to home school. Read Deut. 6 real, real slow.
God Bless
Christine
May i respond to what you have said and say that you don’t have to wait for God to intervene in the school system. This is your child, you must intervene as the parent. You have a God ordained role to do what is Scriptural sound which is in your child’s best interest, you can’t simple deligate such a role purely over to God. God has deligated you with this role. I live in South Africa and let me tell you that our schooling system is an absolute mess. It advocates the homosexual life style as fine, and teachers it as such. I am not going to simple pray that the school sytem is changed by God, no i am going to do more than that and will never allow my child to even enter the system. My wife has given up a promising career to homeschool our two children.
Let my add though that i understand the predicament of single parents as far as homeschooling goes. In such cases it is not always possible to homeschool.
Your brother in Chrsit
John Ivins
Hey, thanks Jeff. I will reread the chapter today.
I considered home schooling. But, I am not cut out for it. My kids are actually in a French school(Francophone, not Immersion) and since I don’t speak French, it isn’t something I can teach them.
There are not a lot of negative influences at this school, and I feel comfortable with that. esepcially since I am close to we do have another Christian on the parents council.
I teach Sunday School (which is more then enough for me) and right now we’re working through Josh Mcdowell’s excellent book on “Is the Bible personally from God.” They get a lot of biblical, Christ centred influence and education, even though dad is not yet a Christian, he too is very supportive. And pretty well all their friends live here DAILY. So they too get a doseage of our faith and belief in Christ.
Yoga at school was just a huge surprise and the effect it seemed to have on her was overwhelming. Like I mentioned, once it was discovered and we took action (my husband supported me on this as well, even though he didn’t understand it) God worked it out. It also brought awareness to many other families and Christian parents what Yoga really is. Sadly, many Christians in our church still practice it and see no harm. What they don’t realize is they are participating in rituals for false gods. I do not want to even think about how it must seem to the one true living God who forbids this!
ALL prayer is appreciated!
Thanks again
Christine
For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will accumulate teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new. They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths. (2 Timothy 4).
Just another reminder that the Lord’s return is ever nearer. Praise God we still have a few men like MacArthur willing to stand up for the truth and proclaim it unabashedly.
The fundamental unbiblical viewpoint that there is anything ‘good’ outside of what is in agreement with the will and Word of God is behind so much of the error of the emergent church and it comes from being raised in a liberal society that preaches tolerance of that which God condemns.
Wake,
I absolutely agree with your post. Many churches today try to use the world’s marketing techniques to bring people into the church. They place too much importance in “attendance” and not enough in Christlikeness.
If someone goes to scripture trying to find a way to justify what they are doing, they will probably find it. But if they really examine scripture (trying to find out what God thinks about something) they will find that God doesn’t allow any room at all for fulfilling their lusts.
I appreciate the comments of Nevergall and Bud Press so much! This whole discussion board has been immensely helpful.
I’ve been a dancer for over 18 years and have been schooled in many forms of dance. For a period of 5 years I was studying under a young teacher who was a wonderful instructor but towards the end of her time with me started teaching us yoga and she had us lying in the fetal position on the floor as she shut off the lights so we could meditate. She instructed us to breathe in cleansing air and breathe out the pain through the joints that ached. (Really, that was her advice to…”my wrist is hurting.” It had to do with my competing internal seasonal energies.)
At no point during this instruction were we taught how to divorce the religious aspect of Yoga from the exercises, in fact…now having been schooled in it I don’t see how you can. These positions are specifically designed to put your bodies in a position of worship to the 300,000 + gods of Hindu. There are whole choreographed dances that serve to glorify different gods. We began every class with the Sun Salutation, which she introduced to us as a praise offering to the sun and morning! After speaking with the instructor about my spiritual confliction, I was excused from these exercises. Thankfully because of this, I was able to witness quite strongly to several of the other girls in my class.
So, I completely agree that it is impossible to “Christianize” this practice. It is a religious, repetitious practice that cannot and should not be welcomed by the church. Satan is acting forcefully today to destroy Christ’s church; why are we giving him so great an access with this false religion? Why do we not have such a high regard of the supreme authority and sufficiency of GOD and His holy Word that people feel they need to add to His revelation with religions crafted by Satan? Have we lost such passion for the sanctity of GOD’s word that we’re willing to perverse it with false doctrines??
Praise God for men like John MacArthur who love the LORD and preach His word with the holy reverence and fear it deserves. GOD is the only one who can offer complete healing and salvation. If you are struggling with stress and pressure, meditate on HIM and HIS truth and you will find peace and understanding greater than anything this world may offer!
Dear Laura:
Your testimony of God’s grace touched my heart. Thank you for sharing it. Please contact me through my website.
God bless,
Bud Press
I have to say that Dr. M’s mastery of the spoken word is so compelling that I started to laugh when I read his response beginning with ‘Well, let me just respond to what I’ve been hearing…’. God has gifted him with such amazing clarity and discernment in communication. It certainly reminds me of many poignant moments in college chapels/classes learning from him.
I acctually agree with, and respect the opinions of both men. Classical yoga (what is found in most of today’s secular yoga studios) is in many cases, a spiritual practice that is designed to relax the body, and empty the mind of all distractions so that a hightened degree of spirituality can be reached. Traditionally, that spirituality is, as Dr. McArthur said, very man centered, and is based (usually) on a belief that we are divine in the core of our being. These ideas are very scary, and absolutely anti-biblical.
That said, a big distinction MUST be made between traditional yoga that is incorporated into many Eastern religions, and CHRISTIAN yoga. Christian yoga is ALL ABOUT CHRIST. Be relaxing our bodies and clearing our minds of the daily clutter, we can fill ourselves with Christ, and worship Him with the entirety of our being. The relaxation occurs not through some mystic communion with our own divinity but through the lowering of blood pressure and respiration, improved circulation, and releasing tight, tensed muscles. The physical benefits of the postures have been scientifically and medically proven to be extremely beneficial, and if used in conjuction with prayer, praise, worship, and biblical meditation, it can be a powerful tool in the life of any Christian.
Jessica,
You cannot worship God in the world’s ways.
The Lord is so good to us to provide us with sound minds and clear thinking when we cling to His unchanging Word. May we never cease to praise Him and seek Him according to His Word.
I read some comments regarding the question of “where to draw the line” when it comes to participating in “pagan practices”. Familiar Christian customs such as those practiced at Easter and Christmas were even mentioned. Hmmmm…what do we do with that? We surely can’t brush over it. That would be hypocrisy, wouldn’t it?
It seems as though most people who have responded here agree that the inspired Word of our Savior must be the standard for what we hold as/determine to be “truth”. Therefore I wonder: how dear do we hold traditions and customs (ie-some Christmas and Easter practices)in relation to the authority of Scripture? Are we willing to give them up if we are shown that they are wrong?
When my family and I found out that trees were once idols in people’s homes used all throughout the year for hundreds of years, that once a year (near winter) they would decorate it and worship it more often than normal and place gifts under it, and that the trees represented something very similar to the Ashera poles spoken of in the OT we dumped the Christmas tree! We do not have Christmas trees anymore in our house, or even any trees any time of the year for that matter, because of the sickening knowledge we had researched and discovered ourselves. I only hope and pray that my conduct would be similar in other instances of my life as the Lord shows me those things which are abominable to Him.
Is this extreme? Sure. But I have had to ask myself this: Who am I ultimately accountable to? My Lord Jesus Christ. Who do I belong to? Not myself, but my Savior, because I have been bought by His precious blood. What has He called me to do? “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and all your strength.” Did He really mean “ALL” my heart? “ALL” my soul, mind, and strength? I don’t know about you, but that sure sounds…extreme. Yes! What the Son of God did for us is worthy of no less kind of devotion and obedience. I do not want anything in my home that is derived from a sick, unholy, abominable practice…whether “culture” has currently changed its meaning or not. And I believe that God’s Word is supportive and determinative for this mindset and conduct.
I challenge and urge my fellow brothers and sisters in this: Let us ask the Lord to show us the things in our lives that may be repulsive to Him since we are called as His children to be clean and to come out from the world. Bob is right in implying that it can be hypocrisy for us to draw a line in one area but not another. Jesus says in John 14 that our love for Him is evidenced by our obedience to His commands. Can we only partially obey? Can we only partially love God? I am left to wonder what those guys will be thinking and saying when Christ says that He never knew them because they did not do the WILL of the Father (Matt.7).
So let us be willing to cast aside the traditions and customs and familiarities of this temporary life, and instead seek to please our Lord in every way, regardless of what it is we have to let go of (Heb.12:1-2). Let us be willing to actually, really allow the Lord to sanctify us to the point that we are as strangers and aliens in this dying world(1Pet.1:14-21; 2:1-3,11). Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire (Heb.12:28-29).
See you on the other side, brothers and sisters!
Many professing Christians who practice Yoga maintain they do not worship the Hindu gods or revere the animals and insects found within the Yoga postures. However, like it or not, every professing Christian who practices Yoga is mingling with Hinduism, has learned the Yoga postures from Yoga sources, and is serving the pagan idols produced by Hinduism. Of this God informs and warns:
“But they mingled with the nations and learned their practices, and served their idols, which became a snare to them” (Psalm 106:35-36).
During a “Christian Yoga” class, one need not literally bow down and worship the Hindu gods while performing the Yoga postures, because learning the practice of Yoga is, in-and-of-itself, serving the idols of Hinduism. And serving idols, whether directly or indirectly, will become a snare to the believer.
Professing Christians who practice Yoga have learned the ways of pagans and are fellowshipping with pagan idols. Of this the Scripture commands:
“And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them” (Ephesians 5:11).
What Christian in their right mind would want to even chance the worship of a pagan god?
Those who promote “Christian Yoga” are causing weak Christians to stumble and second-guess God’s holy word. While there are those who are quick to portray Jesus holding a lamb with one hand and gesturing a peace sign with the other, Jesus was crystal clear on the fate of those who cause the innocent to stumble:
“It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble” (Luke 17:1-2).
While “Christian Yoga” instructors maintain that practicing Yoga and its postures are nothing more than simple exercises to bring Christians “closer to God,” it should come to no surprise that B.K.S. Iyengar (who is billed as one of the world’s leading Yoga teachers), maintains the same thing:
“If you do yoga postures correctly (no cheating allowed), the practice can bring you closer to God.”
As Christians, we know that Jesus Christ is God Himself in human form, second Person of the Trinity, and our Lord and Savior. But who is B.K.S. Iyengar’s god? It certainly isn’t the God of the Bible (see 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 and Galatians 1:6-9).
Indeed, there are counterfeits that mimic the real Jesus Christ. And the “Jesus” of “Christian Yoga” is not the Jesus of the Bible.
Christianity was founded by and is about Jesus Christ. But what about Yoga? The answer is found deep within the roots of Hinduism:
“I am that God (Siva) who sets everything in motion and who, absorbed in Yoga and enjoying the highest bliss, is always dancing. He who knows that knows Yoga. Kurma Purana (2:4:33)” (“The Religious Science of Sanatana Dharma/Hinduism”).
Thousands of years ago, Isaiah warned:
“For You have abandoned Your people, the house of Jacob, because they are filled with influences from the east, and they are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they strike bargains with the children of foreigners” (Isaiah 2:6).
Yoga’s gurus, instructors, and promoters are deceived and are deceiving others. Their task is to introduce (“strike bargains”) with Christians, infiltrate the Christian church, and turn Christians away from the true and loving God. Whether from the north, south, east, or west, Yoga is a pagan, demonically inspired influence from a foreign country.
So called “Christian Yoga” is only one form of the New Age Movement that is testing the metal of Christians to find their weaknesses. Once the metal loses its temper, and Yoga is welcomed into the life of a Christian, other forms of deception are sure to follow.
“Christian Yoga” is laying the foundation for something darker and more sinister. In other words, we “ain’t” seen nothing yet.
Finally, Christians should never assume something is Christian just because it claims to be Christian. “Prove all things,” the Apostle Paul writes. “Test the spirits,” writes the Apostle John. “See to it that no one misleads you,” Jesus said. If something claims to be Christian, put it to the Biblical test.
While there are many who maintain that Yoga is harmless and can be intermingled with Christianity, Yoga–in any shape, form, or fashion–is alien to the faith, foreign to Scripture, and an in-your-face form of evil. It must be rejected.
Sincerely in Christ,
Bud Press
Bud Press,
Very well said. Christians today think that Christianity is all about me and what I can get from it. They need to read John’s other article on, “Slaves to Christ.”
Jessica,
Exodus 32 is a perfect example of trying to worship God in the world’s ways. Vs. 4-6 specifically tell us that they made the graven image and called it Lord, (yeh-ho-vah) the Jewish national name of God. John Gill said, “They own that they were brought up out of that land by the divine Being; and they could not be so stupid as to believe, that this calf, which was only a mass of gold, figured and decorated, was inanimate, had no life nor breath, and was just made, after their coming out of Egypt, was what brought them from hence; but that this was a representation of God.” They were truly worshiping God, they were just trying to do it in the Egyptian’s ways by makng an image for God. Did God desire that kind of worship? Verses 7-10 tell us what God thinks about His people trying worship Him in the world’s ways.
In Christ,
Daniel Chaney
Rhnea,
If a pagan religion wanted to worship cats and/or dogs, does this mean that Christians should not have a cat and/or a dog?
Is it safe to assume that people who use God’s creations as idols are irrelevant. Meaning, as Christians we have the right to reclaim and place them back in their intended place (Genesis 1:26). However, those religions which use man-made practices of idolatry (yoga) are totally different.
I understand that you DO NOT endorse the practice of yoga; I simply feel that the argument (Bob) brought up was apples and oranges.
I don’t think you are extreme at all by not having a Christmas tree in your home. But, I also find it safe to assume you didn’t worship it when you did have one.
The debate goes much deeper than yoga and trees. It is about the sufficiency of God’s Word and ONLY God’s Word.
I must say that I do not agree with the opinions that yoga cannot be Christ centered.
First of all, there are many yoga poses that are used on an almost daily bases by just about everyone that does any type of stretching. If you have ever had physical therapy, you have been told to use “yoga” poses.
Just like Rhnea quoted, we are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. Also, our bodies are a temple. Yet our churches are full of obese “christians” who fill there bodies with nothing but junk. Now how can you serve God and love God if you can’t even walk a flight of stairs without getting winded. You can’t fully serve God if you are not physically capable. There are those that can’t help it medically, but for those who chose to be lazy and not stay active and in shape, you are chosing not to obey God.
If I am to be a servent of God, then shouldn’t I take care of the vessel with which I have been given? Yoga has many scientifically proven physical benifits. Now take the stretches, balancing postures, and fluid movements of yoga and fill your thoughts with scripture, fill your room with melodies of hymns and what “evil” could come of this.
We are told not to take judgement. Who are any of you to decide what is right or wrong. If you feel conviction that Yoga cannot be good in any way. Then don’t do it. But do not, by your words, cause others that do not have that same conviction to stumble.
“But they mingled with the nations and learned their practices, and served their idols, which became a snare to them” (Psalm 106:35-36).
You must take this scripture in its context. It doesn’t state, they mingled with the nations and learned their practices, and THEN served there idols. That would be like saying that because we study ancient Rome in history class and learned how to make paper and build a pyramid that we also served there god’s. As americans we take from many cultures. We are a constantly learning creation that daily finds new limits to what we are capable of. Just because we learn new ideas or incorperate old ones with a new twist, like “Christian Yoga”, does not mean we rebuke GOd and His divinity for Hinduism. We have merely found a new way to more WHOLEY worship God.
For they will know you by your fruits. This is what defines a true follower of God. I can look at many christian yoga instructors, for I know many, and tell you that they are true followers of Christ. Not by the words they speak or their actions but by there fruits. Others who have found deeper relationships with God through making what they have learned from these teachers a time of full body, mind and spirit worship of the one Almighty God. Those that have found themselves more capable of being active in there church and there community because of being taught how to keep there temples in good working order. I do not see fruit from some of the comments made on this blog. But who am I to judge. I only as that you encourage, pray for, and respect those that have differing opinions from your own. Encourage christian yoga teachers to constantly seek God and His direction for there life. Pray that God would protect them from any influences that might misdirect there walk with God. And respect the fact that we all have different convictions and only God can truly know someones heart.
In His Grip,
Bart
The pro-Yoga comments on this blog clearly demonstrate how deceptive pagan influences are, and how easy it is for a professing Christian to be conditioned, desensitized, deceived, and blinded into thinking that an occultic, pagan practice such as Yoga can be Christianized.
Indeed, we are witnessing fine-tuned deception at its very best.
Time and time again, God warns the believer to avoid practices that originate in the occult and paganism. Yet, many professing Christians continue to avoid God’s warnings by relying on their feelings and emotions, side-tracking the issues, and twisting Scripture to suit their own needs.
Sadly, they are playing into the hands of the one who overshadows, possesses, and darkens the doors of the New Age Movement; the one who the Apostle Paul warns us about in 2 Corinthians chapter 11.
Contrary to popular belief, the New Age Movement has been around for thousands of years. In fact, in Acts 19:18-20, we see an example of the occult and paganism Paul encountered, and how it was dealt with:
“Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing their practices. And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of everyone; and they counted up the price of them and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. So the word of the Lord was growing mightily and prevailing.”
Think about it. Occultists’ repenting and confessing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, then attending an old fashion book-burning bar-b-que. No doubt, it was a sight for sore eyes.
Paul also dealt with those who outwardly professed Christianity, but were counterfeits on the inside:
“But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage. But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you” (Galatians 2:4-5).
Well before Paul began his ministry, the Prophet Jeremiah encountered false prophets, who had their own blind followers:
“The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests rule on their own authority; and My people love it so! But what will you do at the end of it?” (Jeremiah 5:31)
That is the question each of us must answer. When all the dust has settled, what will we do? We can act as children and be pushed and blown back-and-forth by every wave and wind of false doctrine (Ephesians 4:14). Or we can stand strong for Jesus Christ and the truth of His word, reject the religious scam-artists and gimmicks designed to shipwreck our faith (Romans 16:17-18), and defend the faith–once for all delivered to the saints (Jude 3).
When we are tired, stressed-out, and over-worked, we can turn our backs on Jesus Christ and bow to the wind-tossed waves of pagan religious practices. Or we can humble ourselves in repentance at the feet of the Savior, and bow to the One Who said:
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light” (Matthew 11:28-30).
We have a choice. I choose to follow Jesus Christ. What will you do?
Sincerely in Christ,
Bud Press
Bart,
You said several things in your post that I would like to address.
1. “We are told not to take judgement. Who are any of you to decide what is right or wrong.”
We are not the ones who decide what is right or wrong. The SCRIPTURES teach us absolutely everything that we need to know for life and godliness. We are not the ones judging. 2Ti 3:16 “All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”
2. “If you feel conviction that Yoga cannot be good in any way. Then don’t do it. But do not, by your words, cause others that do not have that same conviction to stumble.”
This is not about our personal preferences, this is about God’s word being violated by trying to worship Him in the pagan’s ways. Also we are not the ones causing the weaker believers to stumble, it is those who try worship God in the world’s ways that do this. The weaker believer stumbles when he sees “Christians” doing something that he knows is blasphemous to God, and the church is saying that it is okay. I don’t think you understood what that passage was actually saying. Are you saying that we should not say anything about doing Yoga so that those who do are not convicted?
3. “Just because we learn new ideas or incorperate old ones with a new twist, like “Christian Yoga”, does not mean we rebuke God and His divinity for Hinduism. We have merely found a new way to more WHOLEY worship God.”
I cannot say this too many times: YOU CANNOT WORSHIP GOD IN THE WORLD’S WAYS!
4. “For they will know you by your fruits. This is what defines a true follower of God.”
ABSOLUTELY WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY!! If today’s christians are no different than the world, or even the HUNDUS, then what does it mean to be a christian in the first place? Aren’t we supposed to be slaves of Christ? We cannot be slaves of christ and slaves of the world at the same time. 1Jo 2:15 “Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” “But they mingled with the nations and learned their practices, and served their idols, which became a snare to them” (Psalm 106:35-36). This verse is very profoundly exactly what is going on in today’s churchs. They are selling out to the ways of the world. There are very few that still obey scripture in every area of life. Like Bud Press said, we have a choice. I chose to follow Jesus Christ. What will you do?
In Christ,
Daniel Chaney
Wow what a blog. This is really good stuff. So what does everyone think about Joyce Meyer?
- Chris J.
Are any of you married? If so, do you wear a ring? If so, is that biblically based? If you research the wedding band and its origin, then you would find that it is of the world and therefore you are taking from pagans and including it in the biblical covenant of marriage.
We christianize things. If you are to say that you chose to follow Christ, and by that mean that you steer clear of anything and everything that is pagan or the “world’s way”, then you better go live in a cave on a deserted island with your bible and a candle. Yes we are not to conform. But if we are to do as we are instructed and be a light to a dark world, then you must accept differnt ways of sharing the gospel. Jesus turned water into wine for a gathering. You tell me that there wasn’t atleast one person that got hammered off the wine. Jesus did it as a witness, a miracle to any and all that where there. He mingled with the prostitutes, murderers, but he was different. They accepted Him and saw that He was fruitful. Christ knew the pagan practices, but He didn’t worship their idols. It all comes down to the worshipping. You can have tattoos and serve the same God as those without. You can listen to christian rock music and serve the same God as those that only listen to hymns. The world is constantly changing and if we do not adapt to those changes than how can we bring those that are “worldly” to know the saving grace of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for our sins.
But I want also to know where you draw the line?
I don’t personally have all the answers, but I do know that my relationship with Christ Jesus is real and that I have given Him control of my life. That is all that truly matters to me. This debate like many others will not get me to heaven. The only thing that saves me is Christ Himself whom I have accepted and chosen to make my body a temple for Him to use and dwell within.
In His Grip,
Bart
“Therefore, laying aside falsehood, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, for we are members of one another” (Ephesians 4:25).
To recap, what began this particular blog-thread in the first place was John MacArthur’s interview on CNN. In the opening stages of the interview, CNN Prime News anchor Mike Galanos asked MacArthur:
“Alright, let’s say I do decide to try yoga, head to the local gym, give it a shot. What am I opening myself up to spiritually that could go against my Christian faith?”
MacArthur replied with:
“Well that would depend on how the yoga is conducted. If it’s just purely exercise, and you’re a strong Christian, it probably wouldn’t have any impact on your faith. But in the big picture, why would Christians want to borrow an expression from a false religion, from pantheism (god is everything, you’re god, everything is god), when we believe there’s only one true God (the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ). Why would we need to import that? If you want to exercise, exercise. But why borrow a term that has been part of a false religion for centuries?”
Granted, MacArthur’s statement correctly termed Yoga as being a part of a “false religion” and “pantheism.” However, my concern is with the first sentence:
“Well that would depend on how the yoga is conducted. If it’s just purely exercise, and you’re a strong Christian, it probably wouldn’t have any impact on your faith.”
What did MacArthur mean by that? Was it just a slip-of-the-tounge? Whatever the case may be, the statement is not only disturbing, it has the potential to mislead gullible and innocent Christians into thinking that as long as they steer clear of the religious aspects of Hinduism, the use of Yoga postures as a method of exercise is acceptable.
If, by chance, you think I am grabbing at straws or trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, go back and review the posts from professing Christians who attempt to Christianize Yoga. Read the posts from those who love them enough to try and reason with them.
This is not a public denouncement of John MacArthur, but rather an urgent call for clarity and correction. He needs to set the record straight immediately and publicly.
Sincerely in Christ,
Bud Press
Bart,
You said, “The world is constantly changing and if we do not adapt to those changes than how can we bring those that are “worldly” to know the saving grace of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for our sins.”
By showing them that christians faithfully hold on to the truth of God, which never changes. We cannot lower our standards to accomodate a world that is lowering its standards. That would be to turn our back on God. God is faithful. He never ever changes. We must be like Him!
In Christ,
Daniel Chaney
I’m not into Yoga and I’m not up on MacArthur or Pagitt; but I don’t see how a religion given over to Sabbath on the day in honor of the Sun rather then the day blessed by Yahweh, also Christmas, Easter, Crosses, and other documented pagan makeovers has a ton of room to talk.
Sam, Jesus said:
“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. I do not receive glory from men; but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” (John 5:39-47).
And Who is Jesus Christ? The One Who appeared to Abraham (Genesis chapter 18); the One Who the Father called “God” (Hebrews 1:5-8); and the One Who will return:
“Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:7-8).
This same Jesus, Who is the greatest example of love and compassion, also said:
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins” (John 8:24).
We are saved by God’s grace, not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9).
You must be born again (John chapter 3).
In Christian love,
Bud Press
As to MacArthurs comment: “Well that would depend on how the yoga is conducted. If it’s just purely exercise, and you’re a strong Christian, it probably wouldn’t have any impact on your faith”.
Needs to be read in the context of the question that was asked him. Which was…”What am I opening myself up to spiritually that could go against my Christian faith?”
I would have to say I would answer the same way, I want nothing to do with yoga, however if some mature brother who was of mine were to happen into some EXCERCISE CLASS that was using yoga stretching exercises I probably wouldn’t be worried that it would open him up to something SPIRITUALLY DANGEROUS (as the question implied).
Would I recommend he do it? Should he do it, knowing it’s pagan roots? No, along with John MacArthur I would ask him, “Why borrow a term that has been part of a false religion for centuries”?
And, I would add our God is a holy God, a consuming fire, false religions are not something we should see how close we can play next too without getting burned.
R. Coward wrote:
“I would have to say I would answer the same way, I want nothing to do with yoga, however if some mature brother who was of mine were to happen into some EXCERCISE CLASS that was using yoga stretching exercises I probably wouldn’t be worried that it would open him up to something SPIRITUALLY DANGEROUS (as the question implied).”
Mr. Coward, please take a moment and look at what you stated. In one breath you want “nothing to do with yoga” and that you would not recommend Yoga. But in another breath you state, “…however if some mature brother who was of mine were to happen into some EXCERCISE CLASS that was using yoga stretching exercises I probably wouldn’t be worried that it would open him up to something SPIRITUALLY DANGEROUS…”
That’s like saying, “I totally avoid poisonous snakes, but it’s okay if my friend fools around with them because he has done it for years.”
Experienced or not; mature or not, people are bitten by poisonous snakes every year. Therefore, the best way to avoid being bitten by poisonous snakes is to stay completely away from them.
What we, as Christians, should say is, “Yoga is an integral part of Hindu paganism. Yoga is DANGEROUS to the SPIRITUAL welfare of the believer. Stay completely away from Yoga, period!”
R. Coward wrote:
“And, I would add our God is a holy God, a consuming fire, false religions are not something we should see how close we can play next too without getting burned.”
Excellent point! False religions carry with them their own baggage of gimmicks, scams, tricks, deception, and man-made gods (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)–all of which is overshadowed by Satan and his minions:
“For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds” (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).
So called “Christian Yoga” is in-your-face syncretism (an effort to blend Christianity with Hindu paganism). While many professing Christians say, “Uh, I don’t have a problem with it,” God commands Christians to leave it alone.
Telling Christians that as long as Yoga is used as “purely exercise, and you’re a strong Christian, it probably wouldn’t have any impact on your faith” (as John MacArthur clearly stated), is the same as telling a friend its okay to fool around with poisonous snakes.
The bite of the snake that overshadows Yoga poisons its victims with spiritual destruction. It is the same serpent that tempted Eve in Genesis chapter 3.
And to this day, thousands of years later, the serpent continues to slither into the hearts and minds of the unwary–laughingly hissing the praises of so called “Christian Yoga.”
“Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight!” (Isaiah 5:20-21)
Sincerely in Christ,
Bud Press
Jude 3
Man i love some Jonny-Mac.
-Man of God,
-backs down from nobody
-confronts fuzy thinking all over the place.
Gotta love it
First of all, I would like to say that I am so thankful for John Macarthur and his ministry. I believe that he is a wonderful, God-fearing man. I value his wisdom greatly. I do not pretend to know as much about scripture as he does, not even close. However, I do believe I am more informed about the practice of yoga, being a certified yoga instructor.
I would like to point out the inaccuracy in many of the statements above, including John MacArthur’s. First, I would like to say that yoga did not “derive from Hinduism”. Yoga PREDATES Hinduism and was adopted by Hinduism as well as other world religions. Yoga was developed in ancient times out of a desire for health and long life. The Indus-Sarasvati Civilization depicted figures of yoga as they observed movement of animals (flexibility, balance, endurance, strength, and suppleness). On that note, I will agree that yoga has been adopted and reformed by the Hindu culture…in which I would not take part in. So, I am in agreement with the argument that Christians should stay away from yoga, if you are practicing yoga as a form of the Hindu religion. However, that is taking yoga as an extremely general term.
When I teach and practice yoga, it is purely for exercise. Again, suggesting that ALL yoga has to connect the body with the mind, is not accurate. I have very popular yoga classes that only incorporate yoga as exercise. I would like to also make note that many common exercises have derived from or include yoga; such as pilates, many step and aerobic positions, and athletic stretches.
I would also like to say that I teach yoga as a class/outreach at my church. This has brought many unsaved women, including a Hindu woman, into our church that would have never entered. It has been a great way to reach women in our community. Would you suggest that God has not been glorified in this? I would never want to offend another brother and my ultimate goal in life is not to be a great yoga instructor, it is to be a servant of God and to honor Him. It is about being relevant in our culture, which is exactly what Paul did when he incorporated pagan terminology and gave it a new, Christian meaning. I have heard said that, “You can take the same brick and throw it through a window or you can use it to build a hospital.” It is not the object that is evil, it is man that is evil.
In closing, I would like to add that I am not really that interested in standing on a pedestal for yoga, it really doesn’t matter that much to me. I just wanted to clarify some of the misconceptions that have been made. I enjoy staying fit and doing many exercises, including yoga, to keep the body that God has given me healthy. I love the Lord and hope to continue to be an instrument in His hands by using the talents that he has given me for His glory.
“If men worship the stars, should they be plucked out of the sky?” Martin Luther
Dear Stephanie:
Rather than take the time to write a detailed, line-by-line rebuttal to your comments, I offer the following for your consideration.
“Better is open rebuke than love that is concealed” (Proverbs 27:5)
“Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity” (Ephesians 4:26-27).
While I love you in Christ, I am angry right now. Whether you realize it or not, in one fell swoop you under-minded the efforts of those of us who are battling against the epidemic infestation of Yoga and the New Age Movement within the body of Christ (which obviously includes Christian bookstores, churches, colleges, and universities).
Prior to your involvement with Yoga, had you spent time studying God’s word, placed Jesus Christ first in your life, followed the clear-cut commands of Scripture, and educated yourself on Yoga and the New Age Movement, you would not have become involved with Yoga in the first place.
And, whether it was shipped to the U.S. in a wooden crate, floated in from India in a bottle, or dropped from the sky by a migrating gooney bird, it doesn’t matter where Yoga came from. Yoga and its postures are occultic paganism, overshadowed by the prince of darkness.
For those on this blog who are interested in knowing what permeates Yoga and its postures–regardless of whether it has been “Christianized” or not–read the following articles:
“KUNDALINI ENERGY: Yoga’s Power, Influence, and Occult Phenomena in the Church” by Chris Lawson at http://tinyurl.com/3yhwue .
“KUNDALINI SIGNS AND SYMPTOMS” by El Collie
http://www.elcollie.com/st/symptoms.html .
Chris Lawson is a Christian apologist. El Collie, who died in 2002, was a long-time Yoga practitioner, who may have been demon-possessed.
To those who are practicing Yoga, I hope the above articles scare your socks off, and drive you away from Yoga and into the arms of Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 5:20).
While Yoga is being billed as nothing more than innocent, simple exercises, keep in mind that some of the most beautiful and innocent looking flowers and plants contain some of the most deadliest poisons known to man (check out the chart at http://plantanswers.tamu.edu/publications/poison/poison.html ).
Yoga is dangerous to the mental, physical, and spiritual welfare of the believer, as well as those searching for a sincere relationship with Jesus Christ. Occultic, pagan practices, such as Yoga, poisons the minds of the unsaved and draws them further away from the One Who loves them the most.
Stephanie, write me at admin@christianresearchservice.com , include a mailing address, and I will send you some free books on the dangers of Yoga and the New Age Movement–from a Christian perspective.
In the meantime, I pray that God will be merciful and open your eyes to the truth.
Sincerely in Christ,
Bud Press, Director
Christian Research Service
http://www.christianresearchservice.com
Jude 3
Such name calling, such evil-mindedness against one who professes Christ as His Saviour. God has given us a direct order in 1 Timothy 2:8–”I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.”
Are not all or most all of our Christian celebrations built on or attuned to the once pagan seasonal changes in the year? Are we not all called to meditate on these things as David did in the Psalms? I personally have suffered moments of sadness that were relieved only when I allowed myself to be “Be still and know that I am God.” (Psalm 46:10) I have not sought the demonic serpent embodied as such in certain movements of the body, but rather have sought such movements as will stretch and release the tension of the day, all the while giving glory to God my Father and Creator who created me and knows my innermost being (Psalm 139).
Lastly I just want to say, concerning such strong quarrelsome name-calling and slanderous talk against one who is a preacher of the Gospel, Hebrews 12:14 & 15 says, “Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.”
Perhaps the discussion on Yoga needs to be put aside and our own actions and reactions repented of moreover as the more serious offense in this case? Just a thought from one who does not claim to be so intelligent that I cannot say what Jesus would have said about yoga, but I can say what He said about our relationships with one another.
Dear L Karau:
After reading your November 21, 2007 post, I was reminded of some of the letters I have received that accuse me of “attacking” Benny Hinn.
Although the information I and others provide presents solid documentation and appropriate Biblical references, I have even been accused of altering audio and video tapes, fabricating word-for-word transcripts, lying, name-calling, and slander, and even received a letter from Hinn’s attorney in the early 1990’s warning me to back off.
Well, one look at my website will demonstrate that I haven’t backed-off of exposing Benny Hinn as the world’s most prolific false prophet, false teacher, and false healer of our day. And there is solid, irrefutable documentation to back it up.
Sadly, many who follow and adore Benny Hinn fail to do two things: 1. Read the article(s) thoroughly. 2. Most importantly, Test all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21).
To many of his followers, Benny Hinn can do no wrong. “He’s an anointed man of God!” they shout. “Stop attacking Benny Hinn!” they scream. “You’re a child of the devil!” they maintain.
But the truth behind their staunch support of Benny Hinn is that they have been slowly conditioned to believe in Hinn, regardless of what he says or does.
Nevertheless, when I receive letters filled with accusations, I generally respond with something like, “Please take the time and show me where I have made a false accusation, or a mistake in documentation, and I will gladly repent and correct the error.”
Although in most cases there is no reply from the accuser, some have even apologized for their non-Christian attitude and appreciate the information, of which is always written as “telling the truth in love.”
It is not necessary for me at this time to debate the “movements of the body” and stretches in so-called “Christian Yoga.” I and others on this blog have addressed the issues thoroughly, and have provided solid, irrefutable documentation to back it up. Most importantly, we have included what God says about participating in a pagan practice.
However, while you are certainly entitled to your own opinion, when the words “slanderous talk” are thrown into the mix, it makes my skin crawl.
From a legal standpoint, the word “slander” is defined, in part, as: “an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person’s reputation or standing in the community.”
To accuse someone of “slander” is to call them a liar–one who purposely fabricates deception. A liar has no proof to stand on, and rests his words on the hope that people will agree with him. The lie survives until, that is, someone comes along and reveals the truth, in love, with solid documentation.
Thus, I would caution you on your useage of the word “slander” in future writings, unless, that is, you can cite the slanderous statement specifically.
Confronting a brother who is in error or sin is Scriptural. If the brother refuses to right the wrong and/or repent, it is Scriptural to expose the brother publicly. Refer to the articles at:
http://www.pfo.org/revisitg.htm
http://www.pfo.org/notjudge.htm
I love John MacArthur in Christ. However, during his public interview on Yoga, he stated that if Yoga is performed as “…just purely exercise, and you’re a strong Christian, it probably wouldn’t have any impact on your faith” (see above).
As of this writing, to my knowledge, John MacArthur has not exercised accountability to the body of Christ by righting the wrong of his statement. While his statement is disturbing in-and-of-itself, I wonder how many innocent, unwary Christians will be led into thinking that the pagan practice of Yoga can be Christianized?
Words are important, whether spoken or written. Unless care is taken, words will return to haunt the one they originated from.
Sincerely in Christ,
Bud Press, Director
Christian Research Service
Jude 3
“The idea of Christianity is to fill your mind with biblical truth and focus on the God who is above you.”
I find this quote from Mr. MacArthur rather disturbing. The “idea” of Christianity is not the bible, but to love God and to love others. We’ve made Christianity all about the bible, when it should be the other way around – the bible is about Christianity.