Comments on: Human Desire and Divine Election http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/ A Ministry of Shepherds' Fellowship Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:06:48 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.4 by: Beautiful Feet http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-46526 Mon, 13 Aug 2007 04:04:24 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-46526 It's not that the term "elect" is not in the Bible, but its meaning is often misconstrued to conform to our own natural (and limited) territorial mindsets. Some of Jesus's commands are directed towards those chosen as shepherds while other commands are given for sheep. The elect are chosen and groomed by God for martyrdom and exhibit a remarkable relinquishment of proprietary pursuits, even that of justice, in exchange of expressing faith and asserting the boundaries of heaven. It’s not that the term “elect” is not in the Bible, but its meaning is often misconstrued to conform to our own natural (and limited) territorial mindsets. Some of Jesus’s commands are directed towards those chosen as shepherds while other commands are given for sheep. The elect are chosen and groomed by God for martyrdom and exhibit a remarkable relinquishment of proprietary pursuits, even that of justice, in exchange of expressing faith and asserting the boundaries of heaven.

]]> by: Mad Dog http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-45869 Sat, 11 Aug 2007 04:47:08 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-45869 I thought each man was to die for his own sin. Adam's sin caused us to inherit a sin nature, surely, but to automatically preclude any hope os salvation except by the imposition of God is a stretch. I thought each man was to die for his own sin. Adam’s sin caused us to inherit a sin nature, surely, but to automatically preclude any hope os salvation except by the imposition of God is a stretch.

]]> by: Thomas Twitchell http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-45857 Sat, 11 Aug 2007 04:05:13 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-45857 Bill Toothman, Is that a real name. I like it. You asked: If God must give us the desire to make us seek him, why are then we faulted for not seeking Him if he does not give us the desire? We are not faulted for not seeking him, we are faulted for being in Adam when he sinned. If you want someone to fault, fault Adam. You are what you are because of him, as a matter of fault, sin. That has been done so that God might make his power known. In other words, for His name sake, to glorify Himself. The fact that men ask "Why have you made me this way?" Is proof that this doctrine is correct. There are two ways that men ask this, however. One is, "Why? Curse you for having done so." The other is, "Why? Have mercy upon me a sinner." Both of these proclaim the creator God, who does according to his own will whatsoever he has purposed for his own glory with his creation. You see, there is one creator who has created the creation to be what it is, and as Paul so poetically says, referring back to Isaiah, "Shall that which is formed say to him who forms it, what are you making? And, he has already told us that God has done this to make himself known as a merciful God. Why then, as Spurgeon asks, would those who do not care for his mercy, question how he has made them, except for the fact that they do fault God. Their very action is evidence that he is sovereign over his creation, and is by nature, without fault, making them who they are. Bill Toothman,

Is that a real name. I like it.

You asked: If God must give us the desire to make us seek him, why are then we faulted for not seeking Him if he does not give us the desire?

We are not faulted for not seeking him, we are faulted for being in Adam when he sinned. If you want someone to fault, fault Adam. You are what you are because of him, as a matter of fault, sin. That has been done so that God might make his power known. In other words, for His name sake, to glorify Himself.

The fact that men ask “Why have you made me this way?” Is proof that this doctrine is correct. There are two ways that men ask this, however. One is, “Why? Curse you for having done so.” The other is, “Why? Have mercy upon me a sinner.” Both of these proclaim the creator God, who does according to his own will whatsoever he has purposed for his own glory with his creation. You see, there is one creator who has created the creation to be what it is, and as Paul so poetically says, referring back to Isaiah, “Shall that which is formed say to him who forms it, what are you making? And, he has already told us that God has done this to make himself known as a merciful God. Why then, as Spurgeon asks, would those who do not care for his mercy, question how he has made them, except for the fact that they do fault God. Their very action is evidence that he is sovereign over his creation, and is by nature, without fault, making them who they are.

]]> by: Mad Dog http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-45847 Sat, 11 Aug 2007 03:33:23 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-45847 Spurgeon seems to use a lot of parabolic speech here. What would be derisively called "a human argument" if used by the other side. I agree with the poster from a few days ago (late, if you missed it) that Calvin's is "a" doctrine of election not "the" doctrine of election. Spurgeon seems to use a lot of parabolic speech here. What would be derisively called “a human argument” if used by the other side. I agree with the poster from a few days ago (late, if you missed it) that Calvin’s is “a” doctrine of election not “the” doctrine of election.

]]> by: Mad Dog http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-45833 Sat, 11 Aug 2007 02:50:27 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-45833 An honest question. I believe the answer is: He would not. An honest question. I believe the answer is: He would not.

]]> by: Bill Toothman http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-45659 Fri, 10 Aug 2007 20:55:30 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-45659 "If you believe them to be good, and desire them, they are there for you. God gives liberally to all those who desire; and first of all, He makes them desire, otherwise they never would. If you love these things, he has elected you to them, and you may have them; but if you do not, who are you that you should find fault with God, when it is your own headstrong will that keeps you from loving these things–your own simple self that makes you hat them?" I tread carefully, but I would like to ask of Spurgeon, which I cannot for he is no longer amongst us,the following: If he gives salvation to those who desire it and they desire it because as Spurgeon says "He makes them desire, otherwise they never would", then should I not "find fault with God" for not making me one who desired salvation? There is none that seek after God on their own according to Romans 3. If God must give us the desire to make us seek him, why are then we faulted for not seeking Him if he does not give us the desire? “If you believe them to be good, and desire them, they are there for you. God gives liberally to all those who desire; and first of all, He makes them desire, otherwise they never would. If you love these things, he has elected you to them, and you may have them; but if you do not, who are you that you should find fault with God, when it is your own headstrong will that keeps you from loving these things–your own simple self that makes you hat them?”

I tread carefully, but I would like to ask of Spurgeon, which I cannot for he is no longer amongst us,the following:
If he gives salvation to those who desire it and they desire it because as Spurgeon says “He makes them desire, otherwise they never would”, then should I not “find fault with God” for not making me one who desired salvation? There is none that seek after God on their own according to Romans 3. If God must give us the desire to make us seek him, why are then we faulted for not seeking Him if he does not give us the desire?

]]> by: Oscar Morales http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-45641 Fri, 10 Aug 2007 20:07:59 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-45641 Nevergall, That is exactly what Spurgeon is arguing. If you have any inclination to go to God it is because you are of the elect. If not then what does it matter to you because you don't care anyway. I think that Spurgeon likes to use sarcasm when he is speaking to the reprobate. He is basically arguing that those who have been chosen will desire to come to God, not as some mistakenly say that they are forced into heaven because they were chosen by God. I hope this helps Nevergall,

That is exactly what Spurgeon is arguing. If you have any inclination to go to God it is because you are of the elect.

If not then what does it matter to you because you don’t care anyway.

I think that Spurgeon likes to use sarcasm when he is speaking to the reprobate.

He is basically arguing that those who have been chosen will desire to come to God, not as some mistakenly say that they are forced into heaven because they were chosen by God.

I hope this helps

]]> by: Nevergall http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-45625 Fri, 10 Aug 2007 19:08:10 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-45625 I believe new maturing Christians get confused with the drawing process of election. Many ask: Is everyone drawn and only the elect respond or are only the elect drawn? Today's post could add to this confusion. "If God, this morning, had chosen you to holiness, you say you would not care for it. Do you not acknowledge that you prefer drunkenness to sobriety, dishonesty to honesty? You love this world’s pleasure better than religion; then why should you grumble that God has not chosen you to religion? If you love religion, He has chosen you to it. If you desire it, He has chosen you to it. If you do not, what right have you to say that God ought to have given you what you do not wish for?" To me this makes a better a point for those who believe that God chooses based on the will of man (foreknowledge). It would assume the man knew the difference between right and wrong (by God standards). The confusion is, if he knew the difference, does it mean he was drawn. If he was drawn, was he able to willfully choose between the two? If I live my hole life in iniquity it is because I was never drawn. If I was never drawn how could I make a distinction between what's righteous and unrighteous? If I am not drawn, naturally I would prefer "drunkenness to sobriety, dishonesty to honesty", etc. This is what people claim is confusing and/or unfair. I hope this comment isn't confusing! I believe new maturing Christians get confused with the drawing process of election. Many ask: Is everyone drawn and only the elect respond or are only the elect drawn? Today’s post could add to this confusion.

“If God, this morning, had chosen you to holiness, you say you would not care for it. Do you not acknowledge that you prefer drunkenness to sobriety, dishonesty to honesty? You love this world’s pleasure better than religion; then why should you grumble that God has not chosen you to religion? If you love religion, He has chosen you to it. If you desire it, He has chosen you to it. If you do not, what right have you to say that God ought to have given you what you do not wish for?”

To me this makes a better a point for those who believe that God chooses based on the will of man (foreknowledge). It would assume the man knew the difference between right and wrong (by God standards). The confusion is, if he knew the difference, does it mean he was drawn. If he was drawn, was he able to willfully choose between the two? If I live my hole life in iniquity it is because I was never drawn. If I was never drawn how could I make a distinction between what’s righteous and unrighteous? If I am not drawn, naturally I would prefer “drunkenness to sobriety, dishonesty to honesty”, etc. This is what people claim is confusing and/or unfair.

I hope this comment isn’t confusing!

]]> by: Oscar Morales http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-45622 Fri, 10 Aug 2007 18:49:27 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-45622 Mike, If I am correct, what Spurgeon is saying in that statement is that the believer isn't only elected to heaven, but is elected to live a holy and righteous life while here on earth. the other because he hates God is going to hell, not simply that he was elected. This answers the statment that many have made regarding their incorrect view on the Doctrine of Election that there are those who really want to go to Heaven, but have no chance because they were not elected. Hopefully to finish and to clarify; the reprobate as Spurgeon stated doesn't want Heaven, never wanted Heaven and will never want Heaven. Not because God created Him to, but because He by His very fallen nature is. Mike,

If I am correct, what Spurgeon is saying in that statement is that the believer isn’t only elected to heaven, but is elected to live a holy and righteous life while here on earth. the other because he hates God is going to hell, not simply that he was elected.

This answers the statment that many have made regarding their incorrect view on the Doctrine of Election that there are those who really want to go to Heaven, but have no chance because they were not elected.

Hopefully to finish and to clarify; the reprobate as Spurgeon stated doesn’t want Heaven, never wanted Heaven and will never want Heaven. Not because God created Him to, but because He by His very fallen nature is.

]]> by: Oscar Morales http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-45619 Fri, 10 Aug 2007 18:36:04 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/10/human-desire-and-divine-election/#comment-45619 The true matter that answers that question Mike is why are there any regenerate? When all Scripture shows the unbeliever as a rellious, hard hearted, stiff necked, stubborn, foolish, hater of God, lover of darkness. How does anyone like that suddenly love God and desire to turn to him? How would anyone like that turn to God when the only way they would see Him is, like Luther before he was saved, as a vindictive judge who is looking down at the life style that they enjoy? We were all reprobate before God regenerated us, but His decision was made as a result of His will and purpose before we were even created. Choosing those who will be saved necessitates an active decision to not save all, but why so much focus on the reprobate? Otherwise, if foreknowldge truly means that He looked and saw those who would choose Him and thereby He chose them as a result, then God is disengenuous because He is calling those he has seen will never chose them. How is that explained? The true matter that answers that question Mike is why are there any regenerate?

When all Scripture shows the unbeliever as a rellious, hard hearted, stiff necked, stubborn, foolish, hater of God, lover of darkness.

How does anyone like that suddenly love God and desire to turn to him?

How would anyone like that turn to God when the only way they would see Him is, like Luther before he was saved, as a vindictive judge who is looking down at the life style that they enjoy?

We were all reprobate before God regenerated us, but His decision was made as a result of His will and purpose before we were even created.

Choosing those who will be saved necessitates an active decision to not save all, but why so much focus on the reprobate?

Otherwise, if foreknowldge truly means that He looked and saw those who would choose Him and thereby He chose them as a result, then God is disengenuous because He is calling those he has seen will never chose them.

How is that explained?

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