Comments on: Is the Doctrine of Election Unfair? http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/ A Ministry of Shepherds' Fellowship Sun, 01 Mar 2009 19:54:00 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: bruce leonard http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/comment-page-1/#comment-69774 bruce leonard Mon, 29 Oct 2007 05:08:59 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/#comment-69774 We are enjoying the studies and questions being discussed in this blog in one of our classes at church. Our church holds to the doctrinal distinctions of John Calvin and Theodore Beza. We are among a unique group of Sovereign grace churches that have any number of our members that view themselves as "non-elect" in that they believe all the truths concerning the "T.U.L.I.P" but identify themselves personally as those who will most likely "glorify God as vessels of wrath unto destruction". Occasionally, one or two of these individuals or families will gain a peace that they are in fact included among the elect of God for salvation but it causes no loss of harmony and love among our mixed congregation. Thanks again for these interesting discussions for our small groups! We are enjoying the studies and questions being discussed in this blog in one of our classes at church. Our church holds to the doctrinal distinctions of John Calvin and Theodore Beza. We are among a unique group of Sovereign grace churches that have any number of our members that view themselves as “non-elect” in that they believe all the truths concerning the “T.U.L.I.P” but identify themselves personally as those who will most likely “glorify God as vessels of wrath unto destruction”. Occasionally, one or two of these individuals or families will gain a peace that they are in fact included among the elect of God for salvation but it causes no loss of harmony and love among our mixed congregation.
Thanks again for these interesting discussions for our small groups!

]]> By: Ethiopian on the side of the road http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/comment-page-1/#comment-51103 Ethiopian on the side of the road Mon, 27 Aug 2007 17:00:04 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/#comment-51103 Greetings from postmodern America! Have enjoyed the back and forth and wanted to throw in my thoughts as they may perhaps give a different perspective. I grew up a Jew. Raised and taught that we were His chosen people. He called Abram from Ur. He changed him. He told us He would be our God and we would be His people. End of story. Not much choice. He's God, thats it. Job once questioned God, in his weakness and humanity. God responded as He inspired Paul to write in Romans - where were you/who are you? In Judaism, growing up reformed, as I was, meant taking a liberal view of most things (over simplified) but there was still a stressing of being His chosen. After being Bar Mitzvahed when I asked people at temple why we didnt read more of the prophets, especially as I read Isaiah I didnt get answers. Why we studied our Rabbis (Talmud)and not Scripture, didnt get good answers. When I read through Isaiah it became increasingly clear who Scripture was referring to. So long story short, why did I see but others didnt? Was I smarter, better? I'm pretty convinced I was worse than most. Clearly a sinner who trespassed. Then why me? How could I see? How could I choose? Does a bad tree bear good fruit? How do the blind see? Ultimately, what does a child of darkness have to do with the Light? Not sure if Im a Calvinist or not, but I can tell you I see the irony of being raised a reformed Jew and being called reformed now. I dont know that we'll have all the answers, or attain a perfect theology, but I know I'd have no hope if not for Him and Christ crucified and raised from the dead in accordance to the Scriptures. And I know I see, not because of me, but because of Him. And Im pretty convinced I didnt have a lot to do with it. And if I'm now sealed, and eternally secure, then it only goes to show Im in His hands and it's because He put me there. Never quite got how we can "choose" salvation and still be secure - at least thinking you can loose your salvation is a consistent pattern of thought. Greetings from postmodern America! Have enjoyed the back and forth and wanted to throw in my thoughts as they may perhaps give a different perspective. I grew up a Jew. Raised and taught that we were His chosen people. He called Abram from Ur. He changed him. He told us He would be our God and we would be His people. End of story. Not much choice. He’s God, thats it. Job once questioned God, in his weakness and humanity. God responded as He inspired Paul to write in Romans – where were you/who are you? In Judaism, growing up reformed, as I was, meant taking a liberal view of most things (over simplified) but there was still a stressing of being His chosen. After being Bar Mitzvahed when I asked people at temple why we didnt read more of the prophets, especially as I read Isaiah I didnt get answers. Why we studied our Rabbis (Talmud)and not Scripture, didnt get good answers. When I read through Isaiah it became increasingly clear who Scripture was referring to. So long story short, why did I see but others didnt? Was I smarter, better? I’m pretty convinced I was worse than most. Clearly a sinner who trespassed. Then why me? How could I see? How could I choose? Does a bad tree bear good fruit? How do the blind see? Ultimately, what does a child of darkness have to do with the Light? Not sure if Im a Calvinist or not, but I can tell you I see the irony of being raised a reformed Jew and being called reformed now. I dont know that we’ll have all the answers, or attain a perfect theology, but I know I’d have no hope if not for Him and Christ crucified and raised from the dead in accordance to the Scriptures. And I know I see, not because of me, but because of Him. And Im pretty convinced I didnt have a lot to do with it. And if I’m now sealed, and eternally secure, then it only goes to show Im in His hands and it’s because He put me there. Never quite got how we can “choose” salvation and still be secure – at least thinking you can loose your salvation is a consistent pattern of thought.

]]> By: Keith http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/comment-page-1/#comment-48194 Keith Fri, 17 Aug 2007 00:29:40 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/#comment-48194 Christian, You said "I read Ephesians 1 and see that election is corporate, and that those who are “in Christ” are the elect." I have heard this from a friend and neighbor of mine. He says that the elect refers to God's choice to save His church, but not select individuals that make up that church. He says that we make the choice of whether or not to be "in Christ." I guess this doesn't make sense to me because I don't see the church as some nebulous void that has been elected and then people choose whether or not to climb into God's vessel of salvation. The church means "called out one's" right? It is an assembly of individuals. (By the way, I'm not saying that these are your views; they are my neighbors'. I'm just curious on what you actually believe.) Also, if you follow his logic further (which he does), it also holds true that if you get out of the "in Christ" boat, you will not be saved. Do you believe you can lose your salvation? or that true believers will perservere to the end? or something else? Yes, I like to use the verses that refer to God's sovereignty in electing (as I see it) because I think that those are the verses that are disputed. I don't dispute the choice that each individual must make, I just look at how Scripture says that choice is brought about. When I look at verses like the one below (Acts 2:47), I see that it is God who adds to His church. Act 2:46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, Act 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved. Let me know what you think, if you have the time. Thanks. In Christ, Keith P.S. I'm actually not committed to Calvinism. The dispute between Arminianism and Calvanism just sparked my wife and I to figure out what we truly believe on the subject of God's sovereignty. Neither one of us just accepted what either side said. We went to the Word. After reading Romans 9-11 it's just what we concluded. I was never arguing Calvinism with you, just election. Christian,

You said “I read Ephesians 1 and see that election is corporate, and that those who are “in Christ” are the elect.”

I have heard this from a friend and neighbor of mine. He says that the elect refers to God’s choice to save His church, but not select individuals that make up that church. He says that we make the choice of whether or not to be “in Christ.”

I guess this doesn’t make sense to me because I don’t see the church as some nebulous void that has been elected and then people choose whether or not to climb into God’s vessel of salvation. The church means “called out one’s” right? It is an assembly of individuals. (By the way, I’m not saying that these are your views; they are my neighbors’. I’m just curious on what you actually believe.)

Also, if you follow his logic further (which he does), it also holds true that if you get out of the “in Christ” boat, you will not be saved. Do you believe you can lose your salvation? or that true believers will perservere to the end? or something else?

Yes, I like to use the verses that refer to God’s sovereignty in electing (as I see it) because I think that those are the verses that are disputed. I don’t dispute the choice that each individual must make, I just look at how Scripture says that choice is brought about.

When I look at verses like the one below (Acts 2:47), I see that it is God who adds to His church.

Act 2:46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts,
Act 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Let me know what you think, if you have the time. Thanks.

In Christ,

Keith

P.S. I’m actually not committed to Calvinism. The dispute between Arminianism and Calvanism just sparked my wife and I to figure out what we truly believe on the subject of God’s sovereignty. Neither one of us just accepted what either side said. We went to the Word. After reading Romans 9-11 it’s just what we concluded. I was never arguing Calvinism with you, just election.

]]> By: Christian M. http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/comment-page-1/#comment-47660 Christian M. Wed, 15 Aug 2007 17:23:00 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/#comment-47660 Keith, Your Calvinist Reformed glasses have become so comfortable, you don't even know you're wearing them anymore. You simply see all of Scripture through Calvinist lenses. I love the scriptures you mentioned, but without the Calvin shades I do not see what you see (or don't see, since other scriptures are conveniently filtered out). For instance, you see election only as an act of God choosing out of those He has already condemned the ones He wants to save. It's individualistic--this one, not that one. I read Ephesians 1 and see that election is corporate, and that those who are "in Christ" are the elect. The offer of salvation to every person is real (1:13, among many others), and not some trick question reserved only for the "chosen" to be able to answer correctly. And yet I also see in that section of Scripture that God is sovereign in the whole process of salvation. I am willing to live with the mystery that Scripture can and does affirm both God's sovereignty and man's freedom, because any reasonable man reading God's word can see plainly that it does. When I read Scripture without any lens of "presuppositional systematic" belief, it clearly teaches both. But I have had more than one Reformed believer tell me, "If you'll just accept what Calvinism teaches, then Scripture will make sense to you." In other words, wear our desinger shades and THEN you'll see how we have made it all work neatly and nicely (we really don't like any messy mysteries in our theology). But that is the "gnostic" compromise--you can't understand Scripture until you, in a sense, eat the TULIP (the "Calvin code"). Reject any part of that "system" and you're rejecting all of the truth. Bottom line: You're committed to Calvinism; I'm not. I read Scripture in the power of the Holy Spirit, but not in the spirit of Calvin. I just felt the redefinition of biblical "justice" to fit a Calvinist view of election was classic and called for a response. Keith,

Your Calvinist Reformed glasses have become so comfortable, you don’t even know you’re wearing them anymore. You simply see all of Scripture through Calvinist lenses. I love the scriptures you mentioned, but without the Calvin shades I do not see what you see (or don’t see, since other scriptures are conveniently filtered out).

For instance, you see election only as an act of God choosing out of those He has already condemned the ones He wants to save. It’s individualistic–this one, not that one. I read Ephesians 1 and see that election is corporate, and that those who are “in Christ” are the elect. The offer of salvation to every person is real (1:13, among many others), and not some trick question reserved only for the “chosen” to be able to answer correctly. And yet I also see in that section of Scripture that God is sovereign in the whole process of salvation.

I am willing to live with the mystery that Scripture can and does affirm both God’s sovereignty and man’s freedom, because any reasonable man reading God’s word can see plainly that it does. When I read Scripture without any lens of “presuppositional systematic” belief, it clearly teaches both. But I have had more than one Reformed believer tell me, “If you’ll just accept what Calvinism teaches, then Scripture will make sense to you.” In other words, wear our desinger shades and THEN you’ll see how we have made it all work neatly and nicely (we really don’t like any messy mysteries in our theology). But that is the “gnostic” compromise–you can’t understand Scripture until you, in a sense, eat the TULIP (the “Calvin code”). Reject any part of that “system” and you’re rejecting all of the truth.

Bottom line: You’re committed to Calvinism; I’m not. I read Scripture in the power of the Holy Spirit, but not in the spirit of Calvin. I just felt the redefinition of biblical “justice” to fit a Calvinist view of election was classic and called for a response.

]]> By: Keith http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/comment-page-1/#comment-46471 Keith Mon, 13 Aug 2007 02:17:44 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/#comment-46471 Christian, You don't need the "Calvin Code." Just God's Word. There is an enormous amount of Scripture that speaks of the elect, the chosen ones, those whom God foreknew. You do not need a special handshake to get into the club of people who "truly" understand God's doctine of election. It is not gnostic, it is as plain as the nose on your face (or the words in your Bible). Does man have a choice to make when presented with the Gospel of Christ? Absolutely. Can man choose to have faith in the Gospel? Absolutely not. It is the gift of God (Eph. 2:8) As Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."(John 6:44) Salvation is God's work, not ours. A wise friend of mine once told me that we only bring one thing to our salvation....our sin. It is important to remember that God is God, and we are not. His ways are far above ours. It is inevitable (and by design) that we do not fully comprehend all of God's mysteries. It is for that reason that we do not exalt our own ideas about salvation, but instead we bow the knee to the Word of Christ. Whether it settles well in your soul or not, the doctrine is there. Whether you can accept it or not the doctrine is there. The best policy? Accept God's word as TRUTH, then prayerfully examine why your thoughts are different than His. I'll end with one of my favorite sections of scripture: Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Grace and peace to you, Keith Christian,

You don’t need the “Calvin Code.” Just God’s Word. There is an enormous amount of Scripture that speaks of the elect, the chosen ones, those whom God foreknew. You do not need a special handshake to get into the club of people who “truly” understand God’s doctine of election. It is not gnostic, it is as plain as the nose on your face (or the words in your Bible).

Does man have a choice to make when presented with the Gospel of Christ? Absolutely. Can man choose to have faith in the Gospel? Absolutely not. It is the gift of God (Eph. 2:8) As Jesus said, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”(John 6:44) Salvation is God’s work, not ours. A wise friend of mine once told me that we only bring one thing to our salvation….our sin.

It is important to remember that God is God, and we are not. His ways are far above ours. It is inevitable (and by design) that we do not fully comprehend all of God’s mysteries. It is for that reason that we do not exalt our own ideas about salvation, but instead we bow the knee to the Word of Christ. Whether it settles well in your soul or not, the doctrine is there. Whether you can accept it or not the doctrine is there. The best policy? Accept God’s word as TRUTH, then prayerfully examine why your thoughts are different than His.

I’ll end with one of my favorite sections of scripture:

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

Grace and peace to you,

Keith

]]> By: Nevergall http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/comment-page-1/#comment-46048 Nevergall Sat, 11 Aug 2007 19:03:36 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/#comment-46048 Mike Gerstner, They say when you write in all capital letters, you are yelling. Stop yelling! I would also suggest you walk away from the teachings of Charles Russell. JW's are not the only ones who understand the meaning of Gehenna. Your friend... Nevergall Mike Gerstner,

They say when you write in all capital letters, you are yelling. Stop yelling! I would also suggest you walk away from the teachings of Charles Russell. JW’s are not the only ones who understand the meaning of Gehenna.

Your friend…
Nevergall

]]> By: mike gerstner http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/comment-page-1/#comment-45706 mike gerstner Fri, 10 Aug 2007 22:18:29 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/#comment-45706 I THINK JOHN MCARTHERS WAY OF THINKING ABOUT GODS ELECTION IS WRONG,THE LORD JESUS TOOK ON ALL OF EVERYBODYS SINS,NOT JUST OURS.HE IS THE LAMB THAT TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD,HE PAID THE PRICE FOR EVERYONE.GOD IS LOVE ,AND LOVE NEVER FAILS.JESUS WILL NOT STOP SEEKING THAT WHICH WAS LOST TILL HE FINDS ALL.HIS MERCY WILL TRIUMPH OVER JUDGEMENT.REALLY SIT BACK AND THINK ABOUT ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER HEARD OF THE ONLY NAME WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED.GOD DOES NOT TORTURE PEOPLE IN A ETERNAL HELL.WHEN WILL THEY HEAR,AFTER DEATH?IF PEOPLE WOULD QUIT FOLLOWING TRADITIONS OF MEN ,AND ASK THE LORD HIMSELF FOR TRUTH,HE WILL RECEIVE IT. BUT IT TAKES ALOT OF STUDYING OLD MANUSCIPTSOF GREEK,HEBREW.RIGHTLY DIDVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH.JESUS SAID IF,NOTICE HE SAID IF YOU CONTINUE IN MY WORD YOU WILL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE,NOT CONFUSION,NOT FEAR,NOT HAVING ANXIETY ABOUT HIS JUDGREMENTS.GOD CANNOT COMMAND YOU TO OVERCOME YOUR ENEMYS WITH LOVE AND IN THE END NOT DO THIS HIMSELF,THINK ABOUT IT!YOU WILL HAVE THE CHARACTER OF THE GOD YOU SERVE,EITHER LOVE OR A MONSTER.THAT LETS MILLIONS OF PEOPLE GO TO HELL,ACTUALLY GEHENNA IS THE ACTUAL TRANSLATION WHICH MEANS A JEWISH GARBAGE DUMP,OR VALLY WHERE THEY BURNED THE BODIES THAT WERE CRIMANALS.BUT MR JOHN MCARTHER WONT TALK ABOUT THAT.YOU CANT NOT TAKE EVEYWORD IN THE BIBLE LITERALLY,IF THAT WAS THE CASE ANYONE COULD UNDERSTANDIT! IT HAS TO BE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED,THE NATURAL MAN CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE WORD OF GOD WITHOUT THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH!!GOD BLESS AL!!!!!!!!IF ANYONE WANTS TO SHARE THERE OPINIONS WITH ME,FEEL FREE TO DO SO ATMIKE306@CHARTER.NET I THINK JOHN MCARTHERS WAY OF THINKING ABOUT GODS ELECTION IS WRONG,THE LORD JESUS TOOK ON ALL OF EVERYBODYS SINS,NOT JUST OURS.HE IS THE LAMB THAT TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD,HE PAID THE PRICE FOR EVERYONE.GOD IS LOVE ,AND LOVE NEVER FAILS.JESUS WILL NOT STOP SEEKING THAT WHICH WAS LOST TILL HE FINDS ALL.HIS MERCY WILL TRIUMPH OVER JUDGEMENT.REALLY SIT BACK AND THINK ABOUT ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER HEARD OF THE ONLY NAME WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED.GOD DOES NOT TORTURE PEOPLE IN A ETERNAL HELL.WHEN WILL THEY HEAR,AFTER DEATH?IF PEOPLE WOULD QUIT FOLLOWING TRADITIONS OF MEN ,AND ASK THE LORD HIMSELF FOR TRUTH,HE WILL RECEIVE IT. BUT IT TAKES ALOT OF STUDYING OLD MANUSCIPTSOF GREEK,HEBREW.RIGHTLY DIDVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH.JESUS SAID IF,NOTICE HE SAID IF YOU CONTINUE IN MY WORD YOU WILL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE,NOT CONFUSION,NOT FEAR,NOT HAVING ANXIETY ABOUT HIS JUDGREMENTS.GOD CANNOT COMMAND YOU TO OVERCOME YOUR ENEMYS WITH LOVE AND IN THE END NOT DO THIS HIMSELF,THINK ABOUT IT!YOU WILL HAVE THE CHARACTER OF THE GOD YOU SERVE,EITHER LOVE OR A MONSTER.THAT LETS MILLIONS OF PEOPLE GO TO HELL,ACTUALLY GEHENNA IS THE ACTUAL TRANSLATION WHICH MEANS A JEWISH GARBAGE DUMP,OR VALLY WHERE THEY BURNED THE BODIES THAT WERE CRIMANALS.BUT MR JOHN MCARTHER WONT TALK ABOUT THAT.YOU CANT NOT TAKE EVEYWORD IN THE BIBLE LITERALLY,IF THAT WAS THE CASE ANYONE COULD UNDERSTANDIT! IT HAS TO BE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED,THE NATURAL MAN CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE WORD OF GOD WITHOUT THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH!!GOD BLESS AL!!!!!!!!IF ANYONE WANTS TO SHARE THERE OPINIONS WITH ME,FEEL FREE TO DO SO ATMIKE306@CHARTER.NET

]]> By: Christian M. http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/comment-page-1/#comment-45573 Christian M. Fri, 10 Aug 2007 16:00:34 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/#comment-45573 I would take issue with Dr. MacArthur's definition of divine "justice." Because we bear the image of God as His creatures, Scripture affirms that we have the law of God written in our hearts. It is distorted by sin, but Scripture affirms that we know it, recognize it, understand it, and can respond to it. It won't save us, but we are convicted by it, just as Paul was as a young man (Rom 7:14f). Our natural understanding of justice, because it comes from both specific and general revelation, should correspond with God's exercise of justice. This Calvinistic argument of divine justice seems to me little more than a circular argument used to justify an unbelievable belief that makes sense only in order to make their systematic theology work. It just seems to me that Calvinism posits secrets like this to make its followers have to buy into their whole system of belief, and never question Scripture again. It's almost gnostic: you cannnot really read and understand Scripture until you have the "Calvin Code" that unlocks and unencrypts these mysterious beliefs that only Calvinists can understand. When I come to Scripture and read it as though I am a first century Christian, the message is clear: God is sovereign, loving, and just; I am a sinner separated from God; I have a personal, real choice to believe in Jesus and be saved, or to reject Jesus and be condemned; I must turn from my old ways and look to Jesus for salvation. There was no secret decoder ring necessary. When Jesus condemned the Pharisees (Mt 23:23), it was because they had "neglected the weightier provisions of of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness..." They understood exactly what "justice" meant because it was reflected in God's law, they had violated God's standards of justice, and Jesus condemned them for willfully neglecting what they knew to be right. They were condemned not because God had not chosen them, but because they had not been just as God was just. I'm sorry, but Calvinism to me is an OCD theology: no mystery, no messiness, nothing out of place. And if something doesn't "fit," we'll just redefine the terms to make it fit. I was a Calvinist as a young Christian, but then I started studying the Word. Glad I did. It makes more sense to me now. I would take issue with Dr. MacArthur’s definition of divine “justice.” Because we bear the image of God as His creatures, Scripture affirms that we have the law of God written in our hearts. It is distorted by sin, but Scripture affirms that we know it, recognize it, understand it, and can respond to it. It won’t save us, but we are convicted by it, just as Paul was as a young man (Rom 7:14f). Our natural understanding of justice, because it comes from both specific and general revelation, should correspond with God’s exercise of justice. This Calvinistic argument of divine justice seems to me little more than a circular argument used to justify an unbelievable belief that makes sense only in order to make their systematic theology work.

It just seems to me that Calvinism posits secrets like this to make its followers have to buy into their whole system of belief, and never question Scripture again. It’s almost gnostic: you cannnot really read and understand Scripture until you have the “Calvin Code” that unlocks and unencrypts these mysterious beliefs that only Calvinists can understand.

When I come to Scripture and read it as though I am a first century Christian, the message is clear: God is sovereign, loving, and just; I am a sinner separated from God; I have a personal, real choice to believe in Jesus and be saved, or to reject Jesus and be condemned; I must turn from my old ways and look to Jesus for salvation. There was no secret decoder ring necessary.

When Jesus condemned the Pharisees (Mt 23:23), it was because they had “neglected the weightier provisions of of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness…” They understood exactly what “justice” meant because it was reflected in God’s law, they had violated God’s standards of justice, and Jesus condemned them for willfully neglecting what they knew to be right. They were condemned not because God had not chosen them, but because they had not been just as God was just.

I’m sorry, but Calvinism to me is an OCD theology: no mystery, no messiness, nothing out of place. And if something doesn’t “fit,” we’ll just redefine the terms to make it fit. I was a Calvinist as a young Christian, but then I started studying the Word. Glad I did. It makes more sense to me now.

]]> By: David http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/comment-page-1/#comment-45112 David Thu, 09 Aug 2007 17:32:41 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/#comment-45112 I agree. There are other poster (ocasionally) who are less "reformed" than most who are like me, 60% Arminian, 40% Calvinist. Praise God for His grace. I agree. There are other poster (ocasionally) who are less “reformed” than most who are like me, 60% Arminian, 40% Calvinist. Praise God for His grace.

]]> By: Victoria Lynch http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/comment-page-1/#comment-45110 Victoria Lynch Thu, 09 Aug 2007 17:24:40 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/08/08/is-the-doctrine-of-election-unfair/#comment-45110 DAVID--How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? there comes a place in human reason where intellect fails us. I do not know how much I really understand the mysteries of God. Why would we argue about these matters when there is a lost world we need to bring the gospel to--especially postmodern America. You can have your opinion and I can have mine. It just so happens that you are posting on a site that is reformed in it's understanding of theology. You have a right to believe as you do, and so do I. I really hate arguing these things-- I am just amazed that God has chosen to save any of us. Can't we just be grateful for God's great salvation and endeavor to get that message out to a lost and dying America-- That God saves sinners by His grace! DAVID–How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? there comes a place in human reason where intellect fails us. I do not know how much I really understand the mysteries of God. Why would we argue about these matters when there is a lost world we need to bring the gospel to–especially postmodern America. You can have your opinion and I can have mine. It just so happens that you are posting on a site that is reformed in it’s understanding of theology. You have a right to believe as you do, and so do I. I really hate arguing these things– I am just amazed that God has chosen to save any of us. Can’t we just be grateful for God’s great salvation and endeavor to get that message out to a lost and dying America– That God saves sinners by His grace!

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