Are you seriously telling me that I am mixing words in?? LOL. Just about every scripture we look at you either add your own words or inject your own “interpretation”. I have been been taking scripture literally…Who is the Fundy here??

My priorities are well in order. I follow Christ and the ONLY visible, authoritative Church that He established Himself. You cannot claim that even though you try..

I addressed your faith and works question in the next thread and thoroughly debunked it..

God bless..

Look again at the v.9 – I’m not saying you believe that you are saved by works by themselves.
You fail to understand that the psg is telling you that we are saved by faith APART FROM WORKS. You can’t mix works in. Once you do, you stand condemned.

I pray you will put your priorities in the right order; rather than “who validly offer the Eucharist”, instead “that church who holds to biblical truth and doesn’t incur the damnation promised in Galatians 1:8.”

Bad priorities, Gerry.

My brother in Christ.

I’ll try to explain it one more time.

v.8= Saved through faith (we agree)
v.9= Not a RESULT of works (by themselves, we agree)
v.10= Created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS

We are saved through faith (a gift from God through grace)
It is NOT a result of works alone
But they are necessary, since faith is dead wihout them.

Thank you for the invitation, but there are only 2 Churches I would ever even consider being a part of, since they are the only 2 that validly offer the Eucharist. The Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church, but since the Catholic Church alone has the chair of Peter and all that goes along with it, I’ll always be a part of Her. May God bless you and yours for letting me be a part of the conversation…

OK, you don’t think it’s a contradiction. I think you are blind, but I understand. I appreciate the answer.

But the thing is, this sounds strange. You said:

v.8= Saved through faith (we agree)
v.9= Not a RESULT of works (by themselves, we agree)
v.10= Created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS

In summary..
We come TO faith without good works, but as RESULT of our Faith do good works…

If we come TO faith w/o good works (which you said), and since (as Paul says) we are saved by faith APART from works, and since we do works AFTER we are saved (which you said), I don’t see why you should remain a Roman Catholic. Either you did not explain your position well or you belong w/ those of us who preach the Gospel of justification by grace alone thru faith alone.

And we would sincerely love to have you. Won’t you consider coming to the church beloved by God which holds to the True Gospel which can save?

I have answered your question. You just seem to not like the answer.

Also, a couple of posts earlier you said:
Don’t you think it might not be a good idea to go around trying to point out contradictions in the Bible?

I say: It is only a contradiction to you. For me, James and Ephesians show once again that you cannot use one verse (according to the tradition you have been taught) and run with it. I find no contradiction in James and Ephesians since it is the Catholic positiom from scripture…

God bless..

You say I have added “works WE DO” to v. 10. Do you believe that the works in v. 10 are NOT, then, works that people do? If they are not, whose works are they? God’s? If they are, you agree w/ me.

Given that not only do you agree w/ me (b/c a faithful Roman Catholic should), and given that you have not answered my question yet again I think it is clear to most here that you have no biblical basis for holding to justification by faith + works.

But you can still change my mind; you can start by answering the question.

Peace,
ALAN

Again, in v. 10 you are putting in your own words (so we do) (interpretation) in instead of what it “actually says..

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

v.8= Saved through faith (we agree)
v.9= Not a RESULT of works (by themselves, we agree)
v.10= Created in Christ Jesus for GOOD WORKS

In summary..
We come TO faith without good works, but as RESULT of our Faith do good works…

Let’s look at James again (it is Scripture, right??)

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

v. 8 = saved thru faith
v. 9 = apart from works
v. 10 = so that we do works

What is the difference between the 2 “works”? It looks like the same works that we are created to do AFTER we are saved are the ones APART FROM WHICH we are saved. How did I read sthg foreign into the text?

You said: No insult was intended. I am sorry I came across as insulting to you.

“you certainly don’t (know how to be saved)”. Is that right?

I say: Yes, that is what I was referring to.

You said: To clarify the difference of “works” and “works of the Law,” Ephesians 2:8-10 clarifies the issue.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

V.9 – not as a result of works.
V.10 – so that we do works.

I say: It was not my intention to ignore your question, but as you have seen, I have had my share of questions to answer and have done so. So I apologize if you felt that I ingored it. It was not my intention.

You seem to read alot into these verses and not look at them at face value and insert you own “that we do”..let’s look again..

Verse 8: saved through faith
Verse 9: created in Christ Jesus for good works,

Looks alot like Faith AND Good works..

No insult was intended. I am sorry I came across as insulting to you.

The only place I can imagine you might be referring to is when I said “you certainly don’t (know how to be saved)”. Is that right? If so, I was making a theological conclusion and meant nothing against you but everything against Roman dogma (against whom I mean grave insult indeed).
If you are referring to the ‘contradictions in the Bible’ thing, I do not see how that is an insult either. Rather, Eph 2:8-10 is so obvious, as is Romans 4:1-8, that saving righteousness is imputed to the man who has faith and does not work over and against the Roman position that I find it simply a reflex, a reaction, on the part of the defender of Roman dogma to cite James 2. Thus, contradiction. If you have a problem w/ that, it might be a heart issue that you should check into. I will pray for that.

You did not respond to my exegesis of the Eph 2:8-10 psg, and this is probably the 4th time I’ve asked you. Please – if you answer nothing else, answer this.

To clarify the difference of “works” and “works of the Law,” Ephesians 2:8-10 clarifies the issue.

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

V.9 – not as a result of works.
V.10 – so that we do works.

There’s no difference (if we take the text w/o importing outside [Roman] authority) between the works apart from which we are saved by faith and the works we’re prepared for by Jesus.

Finally, your other question – Matt 18 deals w/ a local church setting. I can’t exactly “go to” TD Jakes and ask him to repent since I don’t live in Dallas nor go to his church so as to rebuke him for his Oneness beliefs. My responsibility is to my local body. And we do carry out church discipline.

I look forward to your response on the question on Ephesians 2.

Peace,
ALAN