And yet they still die in as the result of sin…Is God just in having them bear the results of sin if they are innocent? For what are these innocents being punished?

Now, I also believe that infants who die are in Heaven, but not because of any innocence they have before God, but on the basis of the mercy of God in saving His elect children in that manner.

You are the one who keeps bringing up grace and earned salvation. Not me. I already said it is by grace that we are saved. Not by grace alone.

There are so many levels of irony in that statement. But, I am convinced you just don’t see them, so I won’t take the time to point them out. I will end our discussion on this topic with this:

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. Romans 11:6

And what does the text say about David’s condition from birth? You just refuse to believe the plain language he uses describing his status from birth. Where did you get the idea that he is just exaggerating? That’s what you’re saying without saying it. “He can’t mean that he was conceived in sin. That would go against my tradition of free will!” So, it has to mean something else.

Then you try to defend your tradition with statements like the one above. But, using the narrow and miopic view of “I don’t see the words total depravity or universal in the text” you miss the entire point of the verse while claiming you are sticking close to the Text.

The fact is, you find support for other doctrines where the exact language is not used. Can you point to a verse of Scripture that uses the word, “Incarnation?” I assume you believe in that doctrine. How? You reasonably infer from the Text that Christ came in the flesh and that He is fully God and fully Man. Do you understand it completely: I doubt it. Neither do I. But we trust what the Text teaches regardless.

It is the same with this doctrine of total depravity or human inability. Hermeneutics involves gleaning from the Text what it explicitly states and also what is reasonably inferred from what is stated.

Nevertheless, there comes a point where I am banging my head against a wall without a helmet in this conversation. If you refuse to believe what Scripture states, you do so willingly and inspite of clear language in the Word. If grace is earned by something we have to offer God, then it is not grace. I submit, you do not fully appreciate the grace you claim if you refuse the Biblical testimony that God did everything for your salvation from start to finish.

The point that you refuse to acknowledge is that David’s assessment of his condition from birth is a testimony of all of our conditions from birth.

Romans 5:12, 19; Ephesians 2:1-3; Psalm 58:3, to name a few, also bear witness to this testimony. I have answered your question, “Where is the universal statement” in multiple ways, but with the same core answer: David is no different from you.

Your status before God from birth is the same as David’s. Just because you have not sinned (I assume) such a great sin as David does not mean that your heart is any different. But for the restraining hand of God, we would all fall to such depths and worse.

I’m sorry you don’t agree. I really am. I don’t see how anyone can appreciate the grace of Christ until they get a clear picture of what they are being saved from. My only hope in this exchange is that you have at least begun to think about this stuff and will see it more clearly as you read through Scripture. It’s everywhere in the Bible. You just refuse to see it. But, I pray that the Holy Spirit will remove the scales of man-made tradition from your eyes.

You claim that you cling to only the Scripture and not a man-made tradition. But ask yourself: Who has to inject something into the text in order to make his argument? The text plainly states, “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

But you have to read into that plain statement something other than what it clearly states. You have to go around your elbow to get to your thumb to deny that David is stating that he was a sinner from birth. We sin because we’re sinners; we’re not sinners just because we sin.

The kicker is that if you admitted that David was recognizing his state from birth, you know you’d have to admit that it applies to us all. You and I are no better than David. You and I need a new and created heart by God.

That’s the better answer. That’s the clear and unambiguous answer from this text. Who is sticking closer to Scripture?

What does he say about himself? and is he different than you or me in what he attributes to himself?

This is really not a difficult couple of questions. I am answering your question about universality with the answers to those two questions. You just refuse to answer the questions because of your tradition that presupposes that there is no such thing as original sin.

It’s really not a complicated argument. You just don’t want to see it.