Where do the ears come from to hear the gospel? Desire comes from understanding, and in John 3.3 it is written, “exept one is born from above he is not able to see the Kingdom.” The word for see here is eido which means to “know” or to comprehend with the mind. Literally it could mean sight, but it goes further than that, for Jesus in quoting Isaiah speaks of the eyes of the understanding being necessary for the repentant sinner to be able to turn and be saved. Those same Scriptures also include the ears.

Now it is a well known fact that when conception happens, (at conception a thing is born), the fetus has to develope the equipment to be able to hear. The word born come from the Old English word borne which means to be carried. Birth happens later when the one who has been born along breaks forth from the womb. So it is true that God has been knowing us from before we were formed in the womb. In other words, a person is born again long before they are ever able to discern, and therefore to desire to come to the Son. As Jesus said, the wind comes from where we know not but we see the effect of it. So is everyone who is born from above. That stange word anothen, beside meaning from above, carries the meaning “from the beginning,” also.

Baptism then comes after salvation and is not in obedience to faith but is born of it. This is neither a paedo or believers baptimal truth. John the baptist was a believer from the womb, so was David and Jeremiah. Perhaps Paul also. In Paul’s case it is obvious that his conversion in the “declarative” sense happened long after he was “called from the womb for this very pupose.” And, I do not remember his baptism….and he was not sent to baptize, laying to waste the idea that it is necessary, demanded, or an anxious expediency. But it is expected.

I happen to believe in believer’s baptism. That means that a person is a believer when they are baptised, not a believer as a result of their baptism. For your formula to work, Ray, a person could not make the confession that they are believers in Christ until after they came up out of the water. What perameters then, do you use to determine who should be baptized? Seeing that, “For God loved the world in this way, that he gave his only begotten Son that that the ones who are believing in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

I have to agree that most of the reasoning and the means by which we baptize has to do with tradition. There is far more to commend believer’s baptism, however, especially in the aspect of public testimony. But, that is rarely carried out. Usually, baptism is portrayed as “all about us,” and done behind closed doors with no public proclaimation outside the four walls of the church. It is seldom made clear that it is all about what Jesus has done for us: His perfect life, his death, and his resurrecion, all given to us. It is not made clear that it is in the rising out of the water that the benefits of Christ’ perfect life and his death; conviction, repentence, santification, and so forth are imputed to us. It is in the risen newness of life and the sight that is afforded by it that we can see the kingdom, hear the word of God and receive the faith by which we can believe into Christ, turn from sin and live in holiness. Far too often churches, and this is especially true of my SBC brethren, get it backwards.

My preference is that a person is not baptized until they can make a well reasoned confession. Since the idea of catechesis is no longer if vogue it makes it difficult for churches to set a mark. My daughter was baptized by me under the auspices of my pastor. But, I had her write her testimony and along with it and my announcement of her public testimony published in the newspaper, I baptized her in public, in a lake here in Cheyenne. My reasoning for this is Scripture. The testimony to the separtation that Christ has made of us from the world according to his choice should be public for the very purpose of preaching the Gospel by demonstration of its truth much like Abraham’s offering of Isaac. The true “good works,” that James speaks of is the faithful testimony to the world of Christ’s works.

If I had my way our church would require catechism before baptism. Some may think that foolish. But, consider this: Though the disciples were called by Christ, he did not baptize them. There is no record of their baptism except for some who were baptized by John. A baptism which did not suffice as is testified to in Acts. They were taught by Christ for more than three years and were not “baptized” until Pentecost, if we are to take that as their baptism. The fact remains, that solid instruction, and truth filled understanding empowered by the Holy Spirit is the norm. Prudence teaches us that knowledge comes before understanding and wisdom from that. The first thing, and most precious of all to be sought is wisdom, “sell everything and buy her.” When she is mature, wisdom will bring the youth before kings. Until then, the child should learn from its mother and father the Word which will make them wise for salvation. Then I say drown em!

I did answer your previous questions. I just did not know what else to say. I am not Calvinistic in my thinking of scripture. Baptism is a spiritual step of obedient faith.

I am glad that you do not view my comments to you as mean-spirited. Sometimes in this medium it is easy to misunderstand tone. I disagree with you, but in my disagreement I would rather have a reasoned dialogue, not a snarky exchange.

That being said, (still not being snarky here) I perceive that your difficulty with the “Calvinistic thinking of Scripture” stems from the emphasis you seem to place on baptism as a means of regeneration in addition to faith in Christ.

Setting that aside, as others are addressing that issue much more eloquently than I in the next post, the question goes back to where does a fallen man even get the desire to be obedient to Christ?

Please don’t read a mean-spirited comment here, but now I understand the difficulty you were having answering the questions I posed here. It is foreign to talk about the nature of God’s grace as revealed in Scripture when your salvation is conditioned upon a physical act.

A new heart that by nature operates in faith is a gift (Eph 2:8-9). Baptism is obedience in response to the gift. But the gift is not taken back if you are not baptized (Rom 11:29). Nor is the gift delayed until you are baptized.