Comments on: Why I Am a Calvinist (Part 6) http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/ A Ministry of Shepherds' Fellowship Sun, 07 Sep 2008 20:40:35 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.4 by: Gino http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-106399 Sat, 09 Feb 2008 05:32:46 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-106399 How did we get from Faith is definitely a gift to if it's not a gift, then God is not responsible for our salvation.. of course he's responsible, our faith isn't what allows him or facilitates him to save us, our faith is the condition upon which he saves us. and that salvation is a gift born out of his promise to save all who would believe in him. to believe though that he arbitrates that process unconditionally is unscriptural. On the other hand, Faith is something given by God... but so is the ability to walk. you use the part where it says "spiritually dead in trespasses and sin" but where ever does the Bible define that as being "unable to produce faith in anything." as a matter of fact we can't "produce" faith... we apply faith. the bible never says "have faith", it says "have faith in _______" it uses this interchangably with "believe" I'm certain that a "spiritually dead" person is capable of belief or faith which God gives to all. you have to prove that God's election is indeed unconditional and not conditional as so many verses suggest. Gino How did we get from Faith is definitely a gift to if it’s not a gift, then God is not responsible for our salvation.. of course he’s responsible, our faith isn’t what allows him or facilitates him to save us, our faith is the condition upon which he saves us. and that salvation is a gift born out of his promise to save all who would believe in him. to believe though that he arbitrates that process unconditionally is unscriptural. On the other hand, Faith is something given by God… but so is the ability to walk. you use the part where it says “spiritually dead in trespasses and sin” but where ever does the Bible define that as being “unable to produce faith in anything.” as a matter of fact we can’t “produce” faith… we apply faith. the bible never says “have faith”, it says “have faith in _______” it uses this interchangably with “believe” I’m certain that a “spiritually dead” person is capable of belief or faith which God gives to all. you have to prove that God’s election is indeed unconditional and not conditional as so many verses suggest.
Gino

]]> by: Lee Shelton IV http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-103389 Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:33:33 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-103389 Gino, Just because faith isn't singled out as a gift in Eph. 2:8 doesn't mean it is something we bring to the table. It's part of the package. Salvation by grace through faith is a gift from God. Period. Scripture couldn't be more clear that God is the one responsible for our salvation. He is the one who receives all the glory for it. Perhaps you should back up a few verses. Unless you can demonstrate through scripture that one who is "dead in trespasses and sin" (Eph. 2:1) is able to produce faith in anything, then you have no argument. I think you should re-examine your own beliefs in light of God's word. Gino,

Just because faith isn’t singled out as a gift in Eph. 2:8 doesn’t mean it is something we bring to the table. It’s part of the package. Salvation by grace through faith is a gift from God. Period. Scripture couldn’t be more clear that God is the one responsible for our salvation. He is the one who receives all the glory for it.

Perhaps you should back up a few verses. Unless you can demonstrate through scripture that one who is “dead in trespasses and sin” (Eph. 2:1) is able to produce faith in anything, then you have no argument.

I think you should re-examine your own beliefs in light of God’s word.

]]> by: Gino http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-103126 Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:46:52 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-103126 I believe that you have erred in your interpretation of 1 John 4:19. John described this process in an earlier verse: “By this we know love, because He [Christ] laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.” (1 John 3:16). So the person knows love because they become aware of Christ’s love first… that he laid down his life for us. So He has displayed his love for us in a deep and passionate way, He died on the cross as a substitutionary sacrifice for our sins. Now Calvinists usually argue here that Faith is a gift. My response is this: Where? Now the well versed Calvinist says “Ephesians 2:8” which says “For it is by grace we are saved through faith, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.” Now ‘grace’, and ‘faith’ are feminine Greek words… but ‘this’, is neuter! So what is the ‘this’ in this passage? It is salvation itself. No one can earn salvation, however, we can meet a sovereign condition for salvation, one which is offered by grace, on the condition of faith. Nowhere in the Bible is Faith expressed as a gift, it is defined as “…the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen”. How do we build faith, “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God”. As it says in another verse “Study to show yourself approved unto God, an unashamed worker who rightly divides the word of truth”. But what of God, does that mean that because we meet his condition that we earn our salvation by works? CERTAINLY NOT! We were saved by God’s acting grace which he acts on people on a singular sovereign basis: our faith. Salvation is all of God. Faith is something we do that God promises to save us because of. This isn’t about monergism or synergism. This is exactly what Jesus taught. “My burden is easy and my yoke is light.” As a Biblicist, I must say that you have your work cut out for you dismissing Biblicism. Most Calvinists call it Arminianism and dismiss it as pre-refuted by the simple fact that the system of Arminianism is grossly self inconsistent… to which I agree that Arminianism is. However, for the sake of why I am not a Calvinist in any real sense, I must make mention that Calvinism also has some inconsistencies in itself; major gross ones. For a thorough, consistent, refutation of Calvinism, I encourage you to read “The Dark Side of Calvinism: The Calvinist Caste System” by George Bryson. That book helped me a lot in my struggle against Calvinism and really helped me to understand that the Bible teaches neither Calvinism nor Arminianism but rather an unnamed system where election is not unconditional to salvation but conditional on faith, where humans really do have a free will of sorts sovereignly given by God. A God who just controls the hearts and minds of the individuals he has created is nowhere near as impressive as a God who uses billions of free agents to accomplish his purposes. Humans are not sovereign over their emotions, but we are sovereign in our decision making, the Bible in that it holds us responsible for sin and also makes us responsible for believing for our salvation does indeed show the existence of this free agency. I have a strong understanding of Calvinism as I have studied it for months now (and I mean studied, not just every once in a while, but almost nightly) and I have come to the conclusion that only two paths exists, Calvinism is wrong and a Christian I shall remain, or Calvinism is correct and my faith I shall abandon. I hesitate not to criticize the reformed position of Sovereign unconditional reprobation which is the unavoidable and inconvenient truth of Calvinistic theology. This article seems to be an attempt at defending the doctrine of total depravity, in reality the doctrine you mean to defend is “Total Inability” two completely separate doctrines, total depravity says that we screw up in every area, Total inability by its Calvinistic definition is the idea that our sinfulness is so extreme that we can’t even believe on Christ. What Calvinists don’t realize is that this isn’t taught anywhere in scripture. It is true that the father must draw us before we are enabled to come to Christ, however it does not say that this is some inward, effectual call, instead the general teaching of John 6 is that we are drawn to the father by the word of God, that the Word of God is the agent of drawing which the Father uses to draw sinners… and indeed it is true, no one can come to the father unless the spirit convicts and the father draws… both of these things are prayed for earnestly by Biblicists, so that our lost friends and family may decide to believe on Jesus Christ for their salvation. I realize that the Heart is desperately wicked and deceitful, but I also realize that faith is something that comes out of the heart as a result of the Word of God going into the heart. The human heart is not so depraved that when the Word of God enters, nothing happens. Indeed as Christ explained, what you sow, you shall also reap. Admittedly it seems to follow that if we love God because he first loved us that we are unable to love God unless God loved us first… but we see that God’s love in the rest of scripture extends to all mankind. A Calvinist argues that God’s love indeed doesn’t extend to mankind, their favorite verse to support this is “The older shall serve the younger, indeed as it’s written in scripture, Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated” but when we look at the language and in fact when we just look at the original contexts of these two quotes, we find a 1500 year difference!!! In the second quote, it’s no longer “Jacob” and “Esau” that are being referred to, but Israel, and Edom. The more the entire chapter of Romans 9 is examined, it becomes clear that election in this chapter is not to some individual salvation, but rather a national election to favor with God. God first loved all… now we are all able to Love him! It is true that our hearts are poisoned by sin, this is the doctrine of total depravity. These verses expose the corruption of sin in our lives and how it permeates every fiber of our being but it is a tendency to sin. To be sure we are indeed slaves to sin, but we are not prevented from doing good in our unregenerate state. In fact the bible never makes a distinction between regeneration as a separated pre-atonement condition (being born again so that we may believe for our own salvation), this is never expressed by scripture. Instead salvation and regeneration are equated, if we believe in our hearts that Jesus died for our sins then we are saved and regenerated into new life. As Paul put it “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, the old is gone and the new has come.” I conclude that the Calvinist doctrines and worldviews of redemption, election, and reprobation are mythical at best, and heretical at worst. The ideas contained therein are dangerous in terms of theology and make a person grossly inconsistent. These interpretations presented by Calvinists are eisegetical in nature and are severely found wanting. As a brother in the faith, I encourage Calvinists to really re-examine their beliefs in light of God’s word. Eventually you will find the inconsistencies in this theological system. Months of study have shown me this truth and bared it out for all to see. I believe that you have erred in your interpretation of 1 John 4:19. John described this process in an earlier verse: “By this we know love, because He [Christ] laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.” (1 John 3:16). So the person knows love because they become aware of Christ’s love first… that he laid down his life for us. So He has displayed his love for us in a deep and passionate way, He died on the cross as a substitutionary sacrifice for our sins. Now Calvinists usually argue here that Faith is a gift. My response is this: Where? Now the well versed Calvinist says “Ephesians 2:8” which says “For it is by grace we are saved through faith, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.” Now ‘grace’, and ‘faith’ are feminine Greek words… but ‘this’, is neuter! So what is the ‘this’ in this passage? It is salvation itself. No one can earn salvation, however, we can meet a sovereign condition for salvation, one which is offered by grace, on the condition of faith. Nowhere in the Bible is Faith expressed as a gift, it is defined as “…the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen”. How do we build faith, “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God”. As it says in another verse “Study to show yourself approved unto God, an unashamed worker who rightly divides the word of truth”. But what of God, does that mean that because we meet his condition that we earn our salvation by works? CERTAINLY NOT! We were saved by God’s acting grace which he acts on people on a singular sovereign basis: our faith. Salvation is all of God. Faith is something we do that God promises to save us because of. This isn’t about monergism or synergism. This is exactly what Jesus taught. “My burden is easy and my yoke is light.” As a Biblicist, I must say that you have your work cut out for you dismissing Biblicism. Most Calvinists call it Arminianism and dismiss it as pre-refuted by the simple fact that the system of Arminianism is grossly self inconsistent… to which I agree that Arminianism is. However, for the sake of why I am not a Calvinist in any real sense, I must make mention that Calvinism also has some inconsistencies in itself; major gross ones. For a thorough, consistent, refutation of Calvinism, I encourage you to read “The Dark Side of Calvinism: The Calvinist Caste System” by George Bryson. That book helped me a lot in my struggle against Calvinism and really helped me to understand that the Bible teaches neither Calvinism nor Arminianism but rather an unnamed system where election is not unconditional to salvation but conditional on faith, where humans really do have a free will of sorts sovereignly given by God. A God who just controls the hearts and minds of the individuals he has created is nowhere near as impressive as a God who uses billions of free agents to accomplish his purposes. Humans are not sovereign over their emotions, but we are sovereign in our decision making, the Bible in that it holds us responsible for sin and also makes us responsible for believing for our salvation does indeed show the existence of this free agency. I have a strong understanding of Calvinism as I have studied it for months now (and I mean studied, not just every once in a while, but almost nightly) and I have come to the conclusion that only two paths exists, Calvinism is wrong and a Christian I shall remain, or Calvinism is correct and my faith I shall abandon. I hesitate not to criticize the reformed position of Sovereign unconditional reprobation which is the unavoidable and inconvenient truth of Calvinistic theology.
This article seems to be an attempt at defending the doctrine of total depravity, in reality the doctrine you mean to defend is “Total Inability” two completely separate doctrines, total depravity says that we screw up in every area, Total inability by its Calvinistic definition is the idea that our sinfulness is so extreme that we can’t even believe on Christ. What Calvinists don’t realize is that this isn’t taught anywhere in scripture. It is true that the father must draw us before we are enabled to come to Christ, however it does not say that this is some inward, effectual call, instead the general teaching of John 6 is that we are drawn to the father by the word of God, that the Word of God is the agent of drawing which the Father uses to draw sinners… and indeed it is true, no one can come to the father unless the spirit convicts and the father draws… both of these things are prayed for earnestly by Biblicists, so that our lost friends and family may decide to believe on Jesus Christ for their salvation. I realize that the Heart is desperately wicked and deceitful, but I also realize that faith is something that comes out of the heart as a result of the Word of God going into the heart. The human heart is not so depraved that when the Word of God enters, nothing happens. Indeed as Christ explained, what you sow, you shall also reap. Admittedly it seems to follow that if we love God because he first loved us that we are unable to love God unless God loved us first… but we see that God’s love in the rest of scripture extends to all mankind. A Calvinist argues that God’s love indeed doesn’t extend to mankind, their favorite verse to support this is “The older shall serve the younger, indeed as it’s written in scripture, Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated” but when we look at the language and in fact when we just look at the original contexts of these two quotes, we find a 1500 year difference!!! In the second quote, it’s no longer “Jacob” and “Esau” that are being referred to, but Israel, and Edom. The more the entire chapter of Romans 9 is examined, it becomes clear that election in this chapter is not to some individual salvation, but rather a national election to favor with God. God first loved all… now we are all able to Love him! It is true that our hearts are poisoned by sin, this is the doctrine of total depravity. These verses expose the corruption of sin in our lives and how it permeates every fiber of our being but it is a tendency to sin. To be sure we are indeed slaves to sin, but we are not prevented from doing good in our unregenerate state. In fact the bible never makes a distinction between regeneration as a separated pre-atonement condition (being born again so that we may believe for our own salvation), this is never expressed by scripture. Instead salvation and regeneration are equated, if we believe in our hearts that Jesus died for our sins then we are saved and regenerated into new life. As Paul put it “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, the old is gone and the new has come.”
I conclude that the Calvinist doctrines and worldviews of redemption, election, and reprobation are mythical at best, and heretical at worst. The ideas contained therein are dangerous in terms of theology and make a person grossly inconsistent. These interpretations presented by Calvinists are eisegetical in nature and are severely found wanting. As a brother in the faith, I encourage Calvinists to really re-examine their beliefs in light of God’s word. Eventually you will find the inconsistencies in this theological system. Months of study have shown me this truth and bared it out for all to see.

]]> by: Words - » Blogs in Review 3/27/07 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-14153 Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:08:35 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-14153 [...] Phil Johnson (http://www.sfpulpit.com) continues his series on why he is a calvinist and why all Christians are one of sorts with part six and over at Pyromaniacs (http://teampyro.blogspot.com) he posts a bit more on the gifts, entitled Ecstasy. [...] […] Phil Johnson (http://www.sfpulpit.com) continues his series on why he is a calvinist and why all Christians are one of sorts with part six and over at Pyromaniacs (http://teampyro.blogspot.com) he posts a bit more on the gifts, entitled Ecstasy. […]

]]> by: Phil Johnson http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-14052 Wed, 28 Mar 2007 05:08:49 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-14052 <b>Maturing in Faith:</b> I think (if I remember correctly) the next point in this series will help answer your questions, by explaining <i>how</i> God's grace is "irresistable." If not, feel free to bring up the question again, and I'll take a stab at it. Maturing in Faith:

I think (if I remember correctly) the next point in this series will help answer your questions, by explaining how God’s grace is “irresistable.” If not, feel free to bring up the question again, and I’ll take a stab at it.

]]> by: Modern Day Magi http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-14044 Wed, 28 Mar 2007 03:28:02 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-14044 Election does not cancel or override free will as far as I see it. Our will certainly is free, we can will what ever we like. When I was a kid I willed to fly, just like superman. I could not fly. I sprained my ankle. While our wills are totally free they are not totally powerful. Mankind wills for many things which do not come to pass. Jesus created the Havens and the Earth by His Will and His Word. One may will to be saved, but unless Jesus wills it to be so, one will remain unsaved. Being saved is likened to being Born Again. The fetus does not will to be born, and in fact it is a traumatic experience. Without being born though the fetus is doomed to die, never even having tasted life outside the womb. The same is true of the spiritual birth. There will be many who will say "Lord, Lord" but to whom Jesus will reply, "Depart from me, I never knew you." Praise Jesus that I love because He first loved me! MDM Election does not cancel or override free will as far as I see it. Our will certainly is free, we can will what ever we like. When I was a kid I willed to fly, just like superman. I could not fly. I sprained my ankle. While our wills are totally free they are not totally powerful.

Mankind wills for many things which do not come to pass. Jesus created the Havens and the Earth by His Will and His Word.

One may will to be saved, but unless Jesus wills it to be so, one will remain unsaved.

Being saved is likened to being Born Again. The fetus does not will to be born, and in fact it is a traumatic experience. Without being born though the fetus is doomed to die, never even having tasted life outside the womb. The same is true of the spiritual birth.

There will be many who will say “Lord, Lord” but to whom Jesus will reply, “Depart from me, I never knew you.”

Praise Jesus that I love because He first loved me!

MDM

]]> by: donsands http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-14040 Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:37:36 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-14040 “Remember, this is the first and great commandment (Matthew 22:37): ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.’ I think Luther said in like manner, "the greatest sin therefore is to not love God with all your heart, soul, and strength." The Lord said to Peter on the beach, "Do you love Me?"; not do you love people. I to believe we need to have the love of God spread abroad in our hearts by the Spirit, and that first love of ours will become, over time the Lord Jesus Christ, so much so, that we would die for Him. And because of this, we now without any doubt love people. And in fact we show the Lord we love Him the most, when we love the least of these. “Remember, this is the first and great commandment (Matthew 22:37): ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.’

I think Luther said in like manner, “the greatest sin therefore is to not love God with all your heart, soul, and strength.”

The Lord said to Peter on the beach, “Do you love Me?”; not do you love people.
I to believe we need to have the love of God spread abroad in our hearts by the Spirit, and that first love of ours will become, over time the Lord Jesus Christ, so much so, that we would die for Him. And because of this, we now without any doubt love people. And in fact we show the Lord we love Him the most, when we love the least of these.

]]> by: David Carlson http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-14015 Tue, 27 Mar 2007 21:04:40 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-14015 A small comment Phil said: "Remember, this is the first and great commandment (Matthew 22:37): 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.' The whole of God’s law is summarized and epitomized in that one simple rule. To break that commandment is to fail in every single point of the law. There is nothing more completely and totally wicked." I would not leave out v. 39 "The second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.'" In v 40 it states "All the law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.” Jesus puts them together - not seperate. Anyhoo, sorry for the side track. Not the main thrust of your series, I just really do not think 37 can be pulled out of Mathew without discussing through at least v. 40. I agree completly with the main thrust of your series. A small comment

Phil said:

“Remember, this is the first and great commandment (Matthew 22:37): ‘Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.’ The whole of God’s law is summarized and epitomized in that one simple rule. To break that commandment is to fail in every single point of the law. There is nothing more completely and totally wicked.”

I would not leave out v. 39 “The second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

In v 40 it states “All the law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.” Jesus puts them together - not seperate.

Anyhoo, sorry for the side track. Not the main thrust of your series, I just really do not think 37 can be pulled out of Mathew without discussing through at least v. 40.

I agree completly with the main thrust of your series.

]]> by: donsands http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-13984 Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:42:02 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-13984 "This being understood, I am under the impression that after being drawn it is our responsibility to respond to the message." Maturing, Yes we certainly need to respond, and we will, if the Father draws us to the Son, and to the Cross. He will regenerate our dead spirits, and we will trust Christ, and repent of our sins. And it is 100% pure grace. God makes us alive. Those He doesn't make alive, shall be given what they desire, the same thing we used to desire, to live in sin and darkness, and to continue to hate the light. To be rebels against the truth. Thank the Lord for drawing us by His sovereign mercy and grace! “This being understood, I am under the impression that after being drawn it is our responsibility to respond to the message.”

Maturing,

Yes we certainly need to respond, and we will, if the Father draws us to the Son, and to the Cross. He will regenerate our dead spirits, and we will trust Christ, and repent of our sins. And it is 100% pure grace.
God makes us alive. Those He doesn’t make alive, shall be given what they desire, the same thing we used to desire, to live in sin and darkness, and to continue to hate the light. To be rebels against the truth.

Thank the Lord for drawing us by His sovereign mercy and grace!

]]> by: Mike http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-13981 Tue, 27 Mar 2007 16:32:15 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/27/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-6/#comment-13981 Phil's words instantly reminded me of an old hymn redone on the latest Red Mountain Church CD, "Help My Unbelief." Lord, dissolve my frozen heart, By the beams of love divine; This alone can warmth impart, To dissolve a heart like mine. O that love, how vast it is! Vast it seems though known in part; Strange indeed, if love like this, Should not melt the frozen heart. Chorus: The love of Christ passes knowledge. The love of Christ eases fear. The love of Christ hits a man's heart, It pierces him like a spear. Savior, let Thy love be felt, Let its power be felt by me, Then my frozen heart shall melt, Melt in love, O Lord to Thee. -- from Gadsby Hymnal #1117 words by Thomas Kelly, 1769-1855, Chorus by Brian T. Murphy Phil’s words instantly reminded me of an old hymn redone on the latest Red Mountain Church CD, “Help My Unbelief.”

Lord, dissolve my frozen heart,
By the beams of love divine;
This alone can warmth impart,
To dissolve a heart like mine.
O that love, how vast it is!
Vast it seems though known in part;
Strange indeed, if love like this,
Should not melt the frozen heart.

Chorus:
The love of Christ passes knowledge.
The love of Christ eases fear.
The love of Christ hits a man’s heart,
It pierces him like a spear.
Savior, let Thy love be felt,
Let its power be felt by me,
Then my frozen heart shall melt,
Melt in love, O Lord to Thee.
— from Gadsby Hymnal #1117 words by Thomas Kelly, 1769-1855, Chorus by Brian T. Murphy

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