Comments on: Why I Am a Calvinist (Part 2) http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/ A Ministry of Shepherds' Fellowship Tue, 07 Oct 2008 10:05:04 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.4 by: Donald Reiher http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-14186 Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:30:10 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-14186 Calvinists believe they can make it to the end of life and see they have a false faith, were never really elect, and go to hell. Arminians believe they can die and go to hell if they don't continue to believe. I see no difference. Both are saved by faith plus works. Neither one ever was saved. Neither one has simple Assurance. Neither one has believed (been convinced of) the saving message. They think they must believe and do a hundred other things, and live a certain way to make it to heaven. I think the Bible teaches over, and over and over, especially in the Gospel of John, that if a person believes in Christ for eternal life (once), then they have it. If they have no simple assurance, they do not believe the Gospel. Period. It does not matter what else they do for the rest of their life. They can be sure they are going to heaven because of that one act of faith in the promise of eternal life from Christ plus nothing else. Calvinists and Arminians are both wrong on being sure of their salvation and what it takes to get to heaven. Neither are going there if that is what they have always believed. The only way they can get to heaven is by Faith Alone, in Christ Alone, nothing more, nothing less, nothing else. Period. Don Host of GES Webboard John 6:47 - Verily, Verily I say unto you, He that believeth on me HATH everlasting life. I "hath" it. Do you? Calvinists believe they can make it to the end of life and see they have a false faith, were never really elect, and go to hell. Arminians believe they can die and go to hell if they don’t continue to believe.

I see no difference. Both are saved by faith plus works. Neither one ever was saved. Neither one has simple Assurance. Neither one has believed (been convinced of) the saving message. They think they must believe and do a hundred other things, and live a certain way to make it to heaven.

I think the Bible teaches over, and over and over, especially in the Gospel of John, that if a person believes in Christ for eternal life (once), then they have it. If they have no simple assurance, they do not believe the Gospel. Period. It does not matter what else they do for the rest of their life. They can be sure they are going to heaven because of that one act of faith in the promise of eternal life from Christ plus nothing else.

Calvinists and Arminians are both wrong on being sure of their salvation and what it takes to get to heaven. Neither are going there if that is what they have always believed. The only way they can get to heaven is by Faith Alone, in Christ Alone, nothing more, nothing less, nothing else. Period.

Don
Host of GES Webboard

John 6:47 - Verily, Verily I say unto you, He that believeth on me HATH everlasting life.

I “hath” it. Do you?

]]> by: Shawn http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-13974 Tue, 27 Mar 2007 14:34:50 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-13974 AW Tozer and Ed's response... I believe what Tozer was trying to get across is that some questions lead more to arguments and unjustified dogmatism than what Scripture supports. They are questions that lead to endless debating with no conclusion, because God has simply not given us complete information about them. Obviously he was not stating that a relationship with God should be without knowledge. However he was saying don't argue about "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin," or "can God create a rock bigger than he can lift." In this thread we see thorough logic and support for Calvinism....on another site we could find similar cases for Arminianism - written just as logical and supported with much Scripture. I think it's fascinating that the camps in this particular debate cling to the names of the men associated with the position. If the point is to look and see what Scripture says about it why not use the terms "Sovereignists" and "Free-Willers" or "Predistinists" and "Whosoever's". The fact that men's names are attached with the positions means that no common ground will be found. The real issue is that Scripture does talk about the Sovereignity of God and it also teaches the free will of man. I believe Tozer's point would be forget what diehard proponents of each say and look at the text in context to discover the truth. AW Tozer and Ed’s response…

I believe what Tozer was trying to get across is that some questions lead more to arguments and unjustified dogmatism than what Scripture supports. They are questions that lead to endless debating with no conclusion, because God has simply not given us complete information about them. Obviously he was not stating that a relationship with God should be without knowledge.

However he was saying don’t argue about “how many angels can fit on the head of a pin,” or “can God create a rock bigger than he can lift.”

In this thread we see thorough logic and support for Calvinism….on another site we could find similar cases for Arminianism - written just as logical and supported with much Scripture.

I think it’s fascinating that the camps in this particular debate cling to the names of the men associated with the position. If the point is to look and see what Scripture says about it why not use the terms “Sovereignists” and “Free-Willers” or “Predistinists” and “Whosoever’s”. The fact that men’s names are attached with the positions means that no common ground will be found.

The real issue is that Scripture does talk about the Sovereignity of God and it also teaches the free will of man. I believe Tozer’s point would be forget what diehard proponents of each say and look at the text in context to discover the truth.

]]> by: Jeff http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-13921 Tue, 27 Mar 2007 01:55:10 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-13921 What an interesting and informative discussion. Thanks Lou for the explaining of the 5 points of Arminianism. I've been saved now approximately 2 1/2 years, and I'm still trying to figure out whether I had the choice to believe or whether I was predistined. Very thought provoking. God bless, Jeff What an interesting and informative discussion. Thanks Lou for the explaining of the 5 points of Arminianism. I’ve been saved now approximately 2 1/2 years, and I’m still trying to figure out whether I had the choice to believe or whether I was predistined. Very thought provoking.
God bless,
Jeff

]]> by: Lou Martuneac http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-13763 Sun, 25 Mar 2007 13:13:09 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-13763 <b>Falling from Grace</b> 
Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ - that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. Each of the five defintions above are taken from <i>The Five Points of CALVINISM</i>: <i>Defined, Defended, Documented</i>. David N. Steele and Curtis Thomas, Fiund in an Appendix in, <i>Romans: An Interpretive Outline</i>. p. 144 Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., Phillipsburg, N.J. LM www.indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com Falling from Grace

Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ - that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.

Each of the five defintions above are taken from The Five Points of CALVINISM: Defined, Defended, Documented. David N. Steele and Curtis Thomas,

Fiund in an Appendix in, Romans: An Interpretive Outline. p. 144
Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., Phillipsburg, N.J.

LM

www.indefenseofthegospel.blogspot.com

]]> by: Lou Martuneac http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-13762 Sun, 25 Mar 2007 13:10:24 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-13762 <b>The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted</b> 
The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) proceeds and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man. The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted

The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit’s call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man’s contribution) proceeds and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man’s free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ’s saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God’s grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

]]> by: Lou Martuneac http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-13761 Sun, 25 Mar 2007 13:09:57 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-13761 <b>Universal Redemption or General Atonement</b> 
Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it. Universal Redemption or General Atonement

Christ’s redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone’s sins. Christ’s redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

]]> by: Lou Martuneac http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-13760 Sun, 25 Mar 2007 13:09:14 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-13760 <b>Conditional Election</b> 
God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation. Conditional Election

God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man’s will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner’s choice of Christ, not God’s choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

]]> by: Lou Martuneac http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-13759 Sun, 25 Mar 2007 13:08:43 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-13759 Liz: A quick series of what an Arminian is and holds to. I do not agree with all that the Armiian holds to, but the following 5 points will define Arminianism, IMO, fairly. LM <b>Free-Will or Human Ability</b>
Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner posses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation. Liz:

A quick series of what an Arminian is and holds to. I do not agree with all that the Armiian holds to, but the following 5 points will define Arminianism, IMO, fairly.

LM

Free-Will or Human Ability
Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner posses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God’s Spirit and be regenerated or resist God’s grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit’s assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man’s act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner’s gift to God; it is man’s contribution to salvation.

]]> by: Ed http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-13582 Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:57:46 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-13582 "My son, when you get to college you’re going to find that all of the boys will be gathered in a room discussing and arguing over Arminianism and Calvinism night after night after night. I’ll tell you what to do, Cliff. Go to your room and meet God. At the end of four years you’ll be way down the line and they’ll still be where they started, because greater minds than yours have wrestled with this problem and have not come up with satisfactory conclusions. Instead, learn to know God.” Who am I to argue with AW Tozer? But to pursue God apart from engaging our minds is to pursue him as half a being. We are to love God with our whole being. Learning about God from His Word is part of our relationship with Him. I doubt AW would have said that a husband should not know any facts about his wife. Knowing facts is woefully inadequate if that's all there is, but part of a real relationship involves knowing facts. And the study of God will lead to hard questions that are worth pursuing because they help us to know God as He truly is. I wonder how many times we worship a god more of our own making than conforming our thoughts about God to what He has revealed about himself. I have found very few people whose relationship with God I admire who do not know a lot of "things about Him." We show God we value Him by taking the time to pursue the hard questions about Him. And who knows that God won't grant someone in this time the "biblical truth" on this matter in such a way that this issue actually gets settled in Christendom? “My son, when you get to college you’re going to find that all of the boys will be gathered in a room discussing and arguing over Arminianism and Calvinism night after night after night. I’ll tell you what to do, Cliff. Go to your room and meet God. At the end of four years you’ll be way down the line and they’ll still be where they started, because greater minds than yours have wrestled with this problem and have not come up with satisfactory conclusions. Instead, learn to know God.”

Who am I to argue with AW Tozer?

But to pursue God apart from engaging our minds is to pursue him as half a being. We are to love God with our whole being. Learning about God from His Word is part of our relationship with Him. I doubt AW would have said that a husband should not know any facts about his wife. Knowing facts is woefully inadequate if that’s all there is, but part of a real relationship involves knowing facts. And the study of God will lead to hard questions that are worth pursuing because they help us to know God as He truly is. I wonder how many times we worship a god more of our own making than conforming our thoughts about God to what He has revealed about himself. I have found very few people whose relationship with God I admire who do not know a lot of “things about Him.” We show God we value Him by taking the time to pursue the hard questions about Him. And who knows that God won’t grant someone in this time the “biblical truth” on this matter in such a way that this issue actually gets settled in Christendom?

]]> by: Ed http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-13581 Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:49:42 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/03/21/why-i-am-a-calvinist-part-2/#comment-13581 If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then anything that occurs must be in line, at the very least in some way, with his will. Although we cannot fully grasp this, if God knows the position and movement of every molecule, and if he knows the end from the beginning, and if no one can stay his hand, and if he knows our thoughts before we think them, how is it that anything - an earthquake, a phone call, a sleepless night, a crime, a "good deed," or anything at all occurs against the counsel of his will? Some, seeing this dilemma, say that god is not all-powerful. Other say he is not all-knowing (open theists, for example). Others assert that he is not all good. The problem of evil or suffering in a world ruled by an omnipotent and omniscient god poses all sorts of problems for us. However, I have come to believe that God has given us enough in His word to realize that he uses suffering for the sanctification of his children and for examples of judgment on this fallen world. Why did the tower fall on those people? Was it because they were "worse" sinners than the rest? No, but it served as an example - unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Job shows us that God does not owe us explanations. God does what He does according to his own counsel - and who are we to object? I believe that all things are brought about to bring maximum glory to God. Even our salvation is a by-product of that goal. The angels have no chance to repent. God is not willing that any should perish - yet some do. Why? Both Arminians and Calvinists limit the scope of this verse - Arminians because of a commitment to man's free will, Calvinists because of a commitment to God's glory. Why aren't all saved? So that God's full nature can be fully displayed - his love and mercy upon those objects of mercy, his justice and wrath upon those objects of wrath. I was an arminian for years. Then, someone showed me some verses that seemed to imply it wasn't all about human free will. I literally wanted to vomit. But, since once you see truth you can't un-see it, I had to pursue this to see where it lead. It took four years, but I am convinced that "Calvinism," at least as expressed in the 5 points refuting the 5 points of Arminius' followers, represents the Biblical truth. Truth really does set you free ... God does all things according to his own will, and no one can object or claim unfairness with Him. It's true, but it is not easy to accept. If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then anything that occurs must be in line, at the very least in some way, with his will. Although we cannot fully grasp this, if God knows the position and movement of every molecule, and if he knows the end from the beginning, and if no one can stay his hand, and if he knows our thoughts before we think them, how is it that anything - an earthquake, a phone call, a sleepless night, a crime, a “good deed,” or anything at all occurs against the counsel of his will? Some, seeing this dilemma, say that god is not all-powerful. Other say he is not all-knowing (open theists, for example). Others assert that he is not all good. The problem of evil or suffering in a world ruled by an omnipotent and omniscient god poses all sorts of problems for us.

However, I have come to believe that God has given us enough in His word to realize that he uses suffering for the sanctification of his children and for examples of judgment on this fallen world. Why did the tower fall on those people? Was it because they were “worse” sinners than the rest? No, but it served as an example - unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Job shows us that God does not owe us explanations. God does what He does according to his own counsel - and who are we to object?

I believe that all things are brought about to bring maximum glory to God. Even our salvation is a by-product of that goal. The angels have no chance to repent. God is not willing that any should perish - yet some do. Why? Both Arminians and Calvinists limit the scope of this verse - Arminians because of a commitment to man’s free will, Calvinists because of a commitment to God’s glory. Why aren’t all saved? So that God’s full nature can be fully displayed - his love and mercy upon those objects of mercy, his justice and wrath upon those objects of wrath.

I was an arminian for years. Then, someone showed me some verses that seemed to imply it wasn’t all about human free will. I literally wanted to vomit. But, since once you see truth you can’t un-see it, I had to pursue this to see where it lead. It took four years, but I am convinced that “Calvinism,” at least as expressed in the 5 points refuting the 5 points of Arminius’ followers, represents the Biblical truth. Truth really does set you free …

God does all things according to his own will, and no one can object or claim unfairness with Him. It’s true, but it is not easy to accept.

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