However, if I have misunderstood your explanation, then I still don’t understand: why aren’t you left with a God who creates the “elect” who will be saved, and the “reprobate” who have no chance [born to burn]?”

dear brad-
if God leaves any human to himself, he remains as gen8:21 described natural man: “every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood.” natural men are “allowed” to be saved, but none of them choose to be…not one. (rom.3:11-12)

God is all-knowing. isa46:10 says that “I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.” unless you deny this very basic point, you have to say at the very least that God creates some even while knowing that they will never accept Him. arminian teaching won’t help you there…you’ll have to throw out the bible and become an open theist.

Agreed! Thre is much in Arminianism that is disturbing.

In the same vein: Calvinism is profound error.

Calvinism can lead to “rank heresy,” such as:
*Hyper-Calvinism (as Phil referred to)

*Regeneration before faith, including in-the-womb/infant regeneration, which some Calvinists, who I converse with, staunchly believe can and does occur.

*Front loading faith with upfront commitments of man to the gospel of grace, i.e. Lordship Salvation.

LM

I’m sorry. I just don’t get it. Let me quote from your last post:

“You state: ‘You might want to be careful about presenting the Lord Jesus Christ as one who creates people whom he pre-determines will go to hell.’

This is a classic misunderstanding of classical reformed theology, and is an argument against the sort of hyper-Calvinism of which Phil is so eloquently fighting against. It is important to understand that scripture teaches us that God is active with respect to the application of His grace, but is passive with respect to the reprobate. In other words, we are all destined for Hell because we sin and seek not to do the will of God. We are all dead in our trespasses, and this too by our own willful doing. But God, by grace through the effectual calling of His Spirit, intercedes on behalf of the elect to save us by the substitutionary atonement of the Cross. The active/passive distinction is a subtle but very important distinction.”

Are you saying that God actively seeks out the “elect,” but still passively allows the “reprobate” to be saved? If that is the case, then I guess you’ve answered the objection. God has not created anyone who has no chance to be saved.

However, if I have misunderstood your explanation, then I still don’t understand: why aren’t you left with a God who creates the “elect” who will be saved, and the “reprobate” who have no chance [born to burn]?

BS

please read the verse in context: 2pet3:9″The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”

what promise is peter discussing? the promise of Christ’s return.

in that context, we have 2 options:

1) peter is telling believers that the Lord is waiting to return until all the elect come to faith in Him. (i.e. that the Lord is patient towards [His elect], not wishing that any [of the elect] should perish, but all reach repentance.) Once every single person who God foreknew and foreloved accepts Christ, the door can be closed.

2) peter is telling believers that the Lord will never return because there will always be children/adults/elderly who might choose of their own free will at any given moment to repent…so how can God ever close the door on them?

option 1 seems to make more sense, as peter is confident of the Lord’s eventual return and the book is clearly written to the elect who are encouraged to examine themselves as they “make their election sure.” (1:10)

in any event, calvinists try to be very careful not to misrepresent God as He reveals Himself in the scriptures. please feel free to review how we handle those scriptures if you disagree.

“election,” as such, is found repeatedly in scriptures and many who accept the reformed (or “calvinist”) definition are very active in participating in missions. you may also be interested to know that the writer of one of the great scriptural passages about missions (romans 10:9-17) was saved by the miraculous intervention of our risen Lord, entirely apart from human help (and despite that, i hope you don’t consider him a hypocrite. )

gal 1:11″For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. 12For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”

anyway, please stick around and keep asking questions…

You state: “You might want to be careful about presenting the Lord Jesus Christ as one who creates people whom he pre-determines will go to hell.”

This is a classic misunderstanding of classical reformed theology, and is an argument against the sort of hyper-Calvinism of which Phil is so eloquently fighting against. It is important to understand that scripture teaches us that God is active with respect to the application of His grace, but is passive with respect to the reprobate. In other words, we are all destined for Hell because we sin and seek not to do the will of God. We are all dead in our trespasses, and this too by our own willful doing. But God, by grace through the effectual calling of His Spirit, intercedes on behalf of the elect to save us by the substitutionary atonement of the Cross. The active/passive distinction is a subtle but very important distinction.

With respect to the Great Commission, again yours is not an argument against classical orthodox Calvinism, but against the very dangerous hyper-Calvinism. Reformed theology recognizes that God ordains the means as well as the ends. We do not cease to pray or proselytize because, “God already has worked it out”. Rather, we understand, that God, in His divine providence, uses our prayers and our faithful proclamations of the good news of the gospel to effectuate His will – our responsibility to live fruitful lives as Christians does not cease because of the doctrines of grace. We all have our part in the Body of Christ; we all have our part in the garden as it were.

“The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”? — unless you are a universalist, this proves too much.

Blessing to you!
Phil