Common Objections to Cessationism
March 9th, 2007
(By Nathan Busenitz)
Please forgive the informal nature of this post. But it’s late (on Thursday night of a busy conference week). The spiritual encouragement and fellowship this week has been wonderful. For those who haven’t been following the conference on Tim Challies’s blog, his live-blog updates have been great.
In addition to the general sessions, the Shepherds’ Conference offers several dozen breakout sessions (seminars) during the week. Tomorrow morning (Friday), I will be giving my seminar on the charismatic issue. (I noted this several weeks ago, when we began looking at several key passages in the debate).
Anyway, my seminar will essentially consist of two main parts…
I. The Case for Cessationism
II. A Response to Common Objections to Cessationism
For those who are interested, here are the ten objections I am responding to:
1. The claim that cessationism grieves and quenches the Holy Spirit (cf. Eph. 4:13; 1 Thess. 5:16–22).
2. The claim that there is no one text that explicitly demands the cessation of the gifts. The best cessationists can do is imply cessationism from a variety of texts.
3. The claim that cessationism is wrong because there are texts that explicitly demand that we not prohibit or despise the gifts, but rather seek them (1 Cor. 14:5, 39)
4. The claim that there are texts that indicate that the miraculous gifts will last for the entire church age (Acts 2:17–21; Romans 11:29; 1 Cor. 1:4–5 ; 1 Cor. 13:10; Eph. 4:11–13)
5. The claim that since the charismatic gifts filled more purposes/needs than just authenticating the message/messenger, and since those needs still exist in the church today, the gifts are also still needed.
6. The claim that cessationists are afraid to embrace the full power of the Holy Spirit due to peer-pressure, traditional stereotypes, and personal comfort boundaries.
7. The claim that cessationists are inconsistent in asserting that some of the gifts have ceased (the miraculous gifts) while some of the gifts have continued (the non-miraculous gifts).
8. The claim that cessationists promote a sterile overly-formal Christianity which overemphasizes doctrinal head knowledge and underemphasizes true spirituality.
9. The claim that cessationism is wrong because miracles still occur, not to mention all of the sign gifts that are displayed each week at thousands of charismatic churches.
10. The claim that cessationism (as a theological perspective) is dying out.
I’m sure my charismatic friends could add more to this list, but hopefully this is a fair representation of critiques. At the very least, the list represents various objections that I have encountered in my discussions regarding this issue.
I plan to post more on this topic in the coming weeks. I will probably put my notes from the conference up as well — responding to each of these objections (in what I hope is an intellectually-honest and gracious way). In the meantime, I would enjoy hearing from anyone from a continuationist persuasion, in case you believe I am missing something major in this list.
Here are a few others to add to your very helpful list:-
1. The argument from church history that men like Huss prophesied, men like Spurgeon and Lloyd-Jones spoke of being guided by the Spirit, and dramatic healings are recorded associated with some of the reformers – including resurrection of the dead .
2. The argument that since Peter in Acts 2 stated that the “last days” prophecy of Joel was being fulfilled and that this promise was for future generations and all Christians to argue that gifts have ceased is to argue that we are living in days AFTER the last days! (Now where does THAT fit in anyones eschatology?)
3. The claim that the goal of our salvation appears to be receiving the Spirit who is a guarantee of our inheritance. If there is no conscious experience of the Spirit to be had today, how can He give us assurance? (cf Eph 1:13-14, Gal 3:14, Phil 3:8-11)
4. That Jesus promises us an experience of the Spirit that would be better for us than if he himself were to remain on earth - which of us have plumbed the depths of an experience of God to that extent that we could say we would prefer our experience to meeting Jesus in the flesh?
(John 14, 16:7)
5. The claim that Biblical Prophecy was not always 100% accurate, nor automatically enscripturated (1 Cor 13:9, 2 Sam 7, Acts 21:9, Acts 21:4,10-11,32-33, Acts 27:10, Acts 27:22, 1 Samuel 10:5 , 10 , 11, 12; 19:20, 24; 28:6 , 15 ; 1 Kings 18:4, 13 19 , 20; 1 Kings 20:35, 41; 22:6, 10; 2 Kings 2:3; 17:23; 24:2; 2 Chronicles 18:9; 20:20; 24:19; Ezra 5:1; Jeremiah 7:25; Hosea 12:10 Matthew 2:23)
Hi I just thought that I would add to this. I once was under the belief like many pentecostal people that the continuance of these giftings was esentual to the faith. In fact I even thought that the bible supported it. But it was not until oneday “I actually picked up my bible” and “actually dug further”, and “searched out the context, the meaning, and who the scriptures where addressed to” that I actually changed my opinion. Since then I do believe in that statement as made in Corinthians “These things too shall cease! talking about prophecy, tongues, and the like” I may be one in a few. But I do feel now as though the scriptures themselves have pointed me in that direction.
How I wish I could attend this seminar. I just had the unpleasent “experience” of listening to JP Moreland tell us that “no scholar” believes in cessation anymore and those of us in Bible churches who do will be extinct in just a few years. Thanks for writing and speaking on this important subject.
Nathan,
What is the purpose for the discussion on cessation versus charismatic positions?
How would this discussion minister to the men once they went through your discussion?
Sincerely,
Paul Schafer
Your link to Challies is off.
I am being told that “You don’t have permission to access /Because of our love for God, we want to see His Spirit honored. ”
Which can be a tad disconcerting at 7:30 am…
I would add another argument. The Sovereignty of God issue. God may have decided to cease using spectacular gifts after the canonization of scripture, He may have not, but to effecively limiting God through a doctrinal proclamation seems to be a bit problematic. Can God enact a miracle today? I should think that God has that perrogative.
Additionally, many cessasionists hold to their position dogmatically and doctrinally, but just listen to what the majority of prayer requests are during Wednesday night prayer meeting - healing. Pragmatically, all believers hope for God’s miraculous intervention in their or their loved one’s lives.
I am not advocating a Charismatic/Pentecostal perspective concerning gifts (which come from a human sovereignty position) but for a natural application of charis that Paul advocated in the New Testament under the sovereign control of God through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps this would be a “Sovereigntist Position.”
I’ve also heard “only MacArthur is a cessationist.”
Regarding: effecively limiting God through a doctrinal proclamation seems to be a bit problematic
I would argue this line of reasoning is itself problematic. A doctrine should stand or fall based on scripture, not based on how we feel it impacts God as we know him.
We must allow Scripture to define what God is like and what he does and does not do. This doesn’t limit God, after all the Scriptures are his way of explaining himself to us (to the degree that he does).
I would agree with that wholeheartedly. The issue would be for one to say, “There is no healing today, period!” and provide no allowance for God to providentially move according to his purposes. In the case of natural law, like gravity, generally things work as God has designed it to be. However, there are many cases throughout the scripture where God contravenes natural law (the sun in Joshua, etc.)…This is what I mean by a Sovereignty position on gifts. God may choose not continue with the “power gifts” [all though there is no tier system within charis - it’s all grace, and all measured out by Christ], that is his perrogative, but we as believers should not create a doctrinal position which dictates God’s activity, that is all I am saying. Thanks for your comments.
There are cessationists and “strict” cessationists. That is, those who believe that all miracles and spiritual gifts have ceased would be termed “strict.” A case can be made for a middle position, which posits that God in His perfect freedom and sovereignty allows for miracles. Such miracles would be the exception, not the norm. Having been given the infallible Scriptures, the apostolic era gifts are no longer needed, and so have ceased.
Hi Mark,
The problem I see is that you’re argument has no Scriptural basis (I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your conclusion, by the way).
For example, what if I suggest that the orthodox understanding of salvation cannot be true because this doctrinal position limits God’s sovereignty? After all, he may very well decide to save an unrepentant sinner who mocked the sacrifice of Jesus with his dying breath. Any doctrine requiring the acceptance of Jesus’ sacrifice would then limit God. However, scripture clearly teaches to die without Christ is to die without salvation.
My point is, arguments about putting limits on God can be brought out (and are brought out) against virtually any Christian doctrine - and even against Christianity itself. It is therefore not a good argument for or against a given doctrine unless such an argument can be backed up with Scripture.
One final point regarding natural law. I can confidently say that the entire world will never again be destroyed by flood. Saying so doesn’t limit God’s sovereignty, but rather conforms my understanding of God to his revelation to us.
Thanks.
2. The claim that there is no one text that explicitly demands the cessation of the gifts. The best cessationists can do is imply cessationism from a variety of texts.
Not only is there no text that demands cessation as a whole, there are also no texts that demand of any of the gifts individually either.
If I understand your interpretation of I Cor. 13:13 correctly as referring to a time in the future (Rev 22:4), then there is no text.
You work to concoct “paradigms.” I, on the other hand, can simply quote scriptures. I like that.
(repost of part of earlier post)
It’s as if this whole cessationist “Theology of Excuses” is like the emperor who has no clothes. The theology has no scriptures. I mean literal and direct scriptures that specifically negate any of these supernatural things.
If I say we should prophecy, the Bible says ,”they shall prophesy.” Acts2:18
If I say we can do what Jesus did, Jesus himself said, “the works that I do shall he do also.” John 14:12
If I say we can heal the sick, the Bible says, “they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” Mk 16:18
If I say that visions are still possible, the Bible says, “your young men shall see visions.“ Acts 2:17
These are direct and literal statements. I could go on but you get my point. Show me your direct and literal scriptures of cessation.
Yours in Christ,
Riley
5. The claim that since the charismatic gifts filled more purposes/needs than just authenticating the message/messenger, and since those needs still exist in the church today, the gifts are also still needed.
Not only is there a different purpose there is also a different people. The gifts of the Spirit in I Cor. 12 are for the Body of Christ, not just apostles.
Yours in Christ,
Riley
8. The claim that cessationists promote a sterile overly-formal Christianity which overemphasizes doctrinal head knowledge and underemphasizes true spirituality.
This point is a setup. It needs to be reworded. “True spirituality” involves the fruit of the Spirit more than the gifts. You do not try to underemphasize the gifts of the Spirit you seek to eliminate them. Change “true spirituality” to “scriptural manifestations of the supernatural power of the Spirit.”
Yours in Christ,
Riley
In addition to my previous post you might also reword point 8 to say it’s intellectualism vs. supernaturalism. I noticed that nowhere do you mention the word intellectualism.
Riley
I would also add this point.
11. Cessationism denies the full power and potential of the believer through the power of the Spirit.
This point is not man centered it is simply what the scriptures say.
Supporting Verses: (repost of part of earlier post)
1.) Faith has not passed away.
Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
“All things” still means “all things” and would include all of the miraculous things in the Bible. Notice that I didn’t quote Matt. 9:26 or Luke 1:37 that say that with God all things are possible. Nobody disagrees with that. This verse says that people who believe can do all things. Do you believe it? A case could be made I suppose that “all things” would not include cosmically omnipotent things the Bible never states that anyone can do. But it surely would include everything supernatural and miraculous that the Bible does say that men can do.
2.) You can do the miraculous works that Jesus did.
John 14:12 …he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also…
The word “works” is used by Jesus and John in the Gospel of John to refer to the miraculous works of Jesus like healing the sick and casting out demons.
If anyone is inclined to mistakenly try to reinterpret “he that believeth on me” to mean apostles only, they should look at John 6:47. This verse has the same entire phase from the first “Verily” to the “on me…” It is identical to the first part of John 14:12 in both the English (KJV) and the Greek. This verse shows that “he that believeth on me” simply refers to everyone who has received eternal life by believing in Jesus. In other words John 14:12 means that you as a believer, with the kind of faith that Mark 9:23 quoted above talks about, can do the miraculous works that Jesus did. (I’ll give you a hint: You’ll need Acts 1:8 too.)
Don’t be deceived into thinking you can use the next phrase of John 14:12 as an excuse not to do this part. “Greater works” does not refer to getting people born again. Getting people born again is the most important thing but the word “works” must have the same meaning in both phrases and it refers to Jesus miraculous works. Greater works then would simply be greater miraculous works in scope and number since “greater” surely can’t mean “better” than the works the Jesus did. Until you have at least done the same “works” of the first phrase there’s no need to worry about what the “greater works” even are. And since the phrases are connected by “and” you’re supposed to be doing both anyway.
By the way, the word “works” does not refer to his sacrifice. Only Jesus could do that.
3.) You can do “all things whatsoever” that Jesus commanded the apostles to do.
The Great Commission says that all believers (that’s you) should be taught to do everything that Jesus taught the twelve apostles to do.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
The “you” refers to the apostles and other disciples to whom Jesus is speaking. The “them” refers to all of us who have heard the message and have believed in Jesus.
Here is an sample of what Jesus commanded his apostles to do. Those in the ministry are supposed to be teaching everyone in their congregations to do all these things.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them,… (see also Mat 11:1)
Mat 10:7 …preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils:…
This does not mean that other necessary things should not be taught also. It just means that the Great Commission is not being completely fulfilled if people are not being taught to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils, and raise the dead as well as preach the gospel. Thus the Great Commission teaches us to fully preach the Gospel. (“Full Gospel” see Rom. 15:19)
4.) The fullness of the Holy Spirit enables “he that believeth on me” to have a ministry that flows out like a river. (Notice that it’s the same phrase used in John 14:12.)
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
The same phase “he that believeth on me is used here and in John 14:12. This implies that the fulness of the Spirit in our lives enables an overflow of ministry like a river that would include doing the miraculous works that Jesus spoke of in John 14:12.
I don’t believe that this is the same thing that is referred to in John 4 talking about a “well of water springing up into everlasting life”. That’s talking about being saved where “up” speaks of our vertical relationship with God. In John 7:37 it’s talking about being filled to overflowing where it flows “out” horizontally in ministry to others. And it’s not just a well but a whole river flowing out.
5.) Miraculous signs should follow them that believe
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name …
…shall they cast out devils Mk 16:17
…they shall speak with new tongues Mk 16:17
…they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover Mk 16:18
If you doubt this verse here’s a link for you:
http://www.bible-researcher.com/endmark.html
I will point out that this verse is in complete agreement with the other verses here listed. The phrase “them that believe” is functionally equivalent to “he that believeth on me” in John 14:12 and 7:38. If signs are to follow believers and not just the apostles as this verse states, the whole paradigm of - apostles have ceased therefore gifts have also ceased - collapses.
All these verses talk about believers doing supernatural things. Taken together they make a strong case for the continuation of supernatural gifts and miraculous works and the Bible never negates this.
If you have a scripture that literally abrogates, negates, or causes to cease any of these things let’s hear it.
Yours in Christ,
Riley
Thank you all for your helpful feedback here. I just finished the seminar (at noon PST), and am now back in the office feeling totally worn out. But I appreciate all of your thoughts above, and your willingness to interact.
Next week I plan to post the notes from my entire session. There’s a lot, so maybe I’ll break it into parts for the blog. (At that time I’ll respond to each of the objections I listed in my post today.)
I am (obviously) a cessationist, but I look forward to the gracious and fruitful dialogue we will continue to have on this topic over the coming weeks.
Thank you again for your feedback.
- NB
Another argument against cessationism: it effectively undermines the authority of the New Testament. Cessationism implies that large parts of the NT, such as 1 Corinthians 14, are no longer applicable today. Indeed arguably this is true of the whole NT, because (obviously if you think about it) it was all written during the period before the completion of the canon and so before the gifts are supposed to have ceased. Cessationists have to teach that commands like 1 Corinthians 14:29 are no longer valid. But if that scriptural command is no longer valid, how about others? Cessationists can offer no consistent criteria to judge which parts of the NT lost their validity when the gifts ceased, they are left to judge this according to their personal subjective judgment, which they are therefore putting above Scripture.
Nathan,
Thanks so much for seeking this kind of feedback and for planning to post your notes.
On a related tangent, it seemed like the series you ran on here exploring the scriptural foundation for cessationism (I think you called it, “The When Question”) seemed to kinda evaporate mid-argument. Did I miss something, or did other stuff just come up requiring that the series be cut short?
Thanks again for your ministry to us through the blog/conferences/etc.
- Dluxe
Dluxe,
Thanks for your question… I have not forgotten about my “when question” series. Because of conference preparations this last week, things here have gotten busy.
Perhaps I’ll put my notes up first (which I think will answer a lot of questions), and then I’ll continue the when series later, if it still seems that there is interest.
Thanks,
NB
The thing I find funny is this: if there’s at least as much indication in New Testament that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are for today as for the cessationist position (I’ll be generous and say it’s a coin toss), why would anyone WANT to believe the gifts have ceased? Isn’t it better to assume that God is so good and so gracious that he gives us the ability to edify the Church, preach to the lost with demonstrations of Power to confirm the message, and make war against the schemes of the devil? Why would a believer prefer to view God as a changeable being who only poured out His Spirit for a certain time just so the Bible could be written? Is the world less lost now than in the first century A.D.? Is the world not hurting as much now as then? Is the world not hungering for a miracle as much now as before? Can reading about the supernatural in the Bible replace experiencing the supernatural now?
So, please, tell me: if it’s possible that charismatics are justified in believing what the NT says about the gifts of the Spirit, what is the reason you would prefer to be a cessationist?
@ Jared White
1) I’ve rarely seen NT type gifts practiced ANYWHERE. Now, I have heard of a couple of instances, and so it has piqued my interest, but you have to admit, if the gifts are real there are too many phonies out there.
2) I’ve never seen the gifts and the ones that ppl claim to say are not impressive at all. Surely the NT miracle workers were better anybody i have seen. Now, I have credible ppl who have told me stories about crazy stuff that frankly its hard to disbelieve, but 100% of what I’ve seen is nonsense.
3) Biblical case for cessationism is awesome.
4) How many ppl you know are converted b/c of someone’s prophesy and tongues? How many of those have stayed orthodox and faithful? zero, zero.
I grew up in a charismatic env. and you might be living in some weird enclave where the Spirit is on fire, but that doesn’t really happen in real life.
5) Christian life and the power of Christ I have seen and witnessed is the Holy Spirit working powerfully through the Gospel and peoples lives. These two things are by far more powerful than all the tongues in the world.
6) Do you really want a church dependent on miraculous gifts or a church that depends only on following Christ? Okay, if tongues and prophecy is so awesome and powerful let’s see you do that at your work place okay? I think you’ll see that sharing the Gospel and loving ppl will do far more, has done for more, is doing for more, will do far more, etc.
Uh-Oh. Looks like we’re back to disagreeing again. Agreement was nice while it lasted.
John said:
3) Biblical case for cessationism is awesome.
You must’ve been reading different posts than the ones I saw. All I saw was a non-scriptural concoction that fizzled out to nothing. As Dluxe said it “seemed to kinda evaporate mid-argument.”
4) How many ppl you know are converted b/c of someone’s prophesy and tongues? How many of those have stayed orthodox and faithful? zero, zero.
Speaking in tongues is not a method of preaching the gospel. Never was, never will be. It’s for personal edification - “does not speak to men but to God.” I Cor 14:2 How could you preach the gospel to men when you’re not even speaking to them?
The gospel is the “power of God unto salvation.” Rom. 1:16 There is no argument about that or that the gospel is the greatest power. Nevertheless, this recognition does not require you to reject other parts of what the Bible says about supernatural things in their proper place and perspective.
6) Do you really want a church dependent on miraculous gifts or a church that depends only on following Christ? Okay, if tongues and prophecy is so awesome and powerful let’s see you do that at your work place okay? I think you’ll see that sharing the Gospel and loving ppl will do far more, has done for more, is doing for more, will do far more, etc.
There is no necessity to artificially set up an either or situation between miraculous gifts and following Christ. Jesus did miraculous gifts himself so how would doing miraculous gifts conflict with following Christ.
John 14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also;…
Where’s the conflict between doing these same works and following Christ?
Speaking in tongues is not for the workplace it’s for your own prayer closet primarily. Remember, speaking in tongues is not a means of preaching the gospel. No one in the Bible preached the gospel by speaking in tongues. Prophecy and healing might have a place in the workplace but not speaking in tongues. I just prayed today for one of the clerks in the courthouse where I was working. God fixed the problem right there and got all the glory. Most people don’t expect God to do anything in their workplace. I’ve consistently seen this kind of experience to be a powerful encouragement and strengthening of their faith as to the presence and power of God in their lives right where they’re at. What’s wrong with that? Wouldn’t Jesus have done the same?
Yours in Christ,
Riley
@ Riley
No more strength for this one!
Just tell me you know that I could write pages and pages right now haha
Perhaps if there is a new facet of the debate, but its my test season, so I’ll gracefully bow out, errrr not step into this one.
(so so so so so tempted to say something though)
@John, the fact you’d refer to my church as a weird enclave simply because we choose to believe that God means what He says and that what is *already* happening in our midst is from the Lord seems to me to be sadly arrogant.
Yes, I know people who have come to Christ or have had their faith mightily strengthened through prophesy. I also know people who have been healed in church and in the marketplace through our outreach. When people are touched by the Holy Spirit, they want to know God more! If all you’ve experienced was fake, as you say, then perhaps you need to travel around and see what the Lord is doing elsewhere.
God isn’t limited by the abuses you’ve seen. The Gospel message itself is abused and perverted all the time. Does that mean we shouldn’t preach Christ? Just because the Spirit is abused, does that mean we shouldn’t desire the gifts? God is bigger than human weakness, for which I am eternally grateful.
@ Jared White
I apologize for the way my words came across. I wasn’t saying your church was a weird enclave b/c you guys are charismatic, but that if the gifts are so ubiquitous and profound there are way too many people who haven’t seen it ie if their are supernaturally gifted around why haven’t more people (in the church) experienced it?
Riley:
I’d love to get you to interact with me at my DebateBlog on this topic, particularly your exegesis of Acts 2 in which you have places most of your eggs, above.
Please take a look at the site and the format, and you can e-mail me if you’d like to try it out.
@ John,
All right, thanks for the clarification. No hard feelings.
You have a very good question there, and although I certainly can’t claim to understand the answer completely, I can think immediately of two reasons: pride and unbelief. We’ve been dealing mightily with both in our local church over the past year+, and it’s had a profound impact on my life as well as our corporate church life. Pride makes our desires and our ambitious and our intellect the filter through which we interact with God, and unbelief limits our ability to step out into supernatural realms which are uncomfortable or scary or challenging. When we lay down our lives for Jesus and say: Lord, have your way with me, no matter what the cost — when we truly step out in faith to believe all the God may have for us — things start to be activated in the Spirit. It’s amazing. Every day I learn more and more about the authority I have in Christ as I humble myself and pursue faith, and it’s just stunning.
Blessings to you John,
Jared
@ Jared
You asked a very intriguing question in your initial post: “Why would one want to believe that the gifts have ceased”? It is a good question to ask. I think that most Christians would respond that they would NOT want there to be a cessation of the gifts. Indeed, to see the church move in power and do the things that our Lord and his apostles did would be most encouraging: healing the sick, raising the dead, prophesying, speaking in unlearned languages, etc.. The problem though is that this just simply isn’t happening in contemporary times.
There have been plenty of posts in this thread that give all the scriptural evidences for one’s respective position, but I would like to respond just observationally. What do we really see going on in the church today? Do we see real healing of the sick? Are the dead being raised? Are there sounders of swine jumping into the abyss? Ok so, I see that we’ve already broached this subject in prior posts, but only just. There is real difference when observing manifestation of the gifts between “scarcely” and “never“. Can we in fact point to a single verified instance in the modern church of someone being raised from the dead? This is no trivial question. It goes direct to the credibility of the Christian claim. As Christians we have great joy in knowing that ours is not a philosophical belief; we rest in the knowledge and comfort that we know God IS — that He created and sustains the heavens and the earth; that Christ actually did come, die and rise again on the 3rd day. Scripture in most part is God’s divine revelation to us reporting how He has interacted with humankind historically and spiritually in implementing His redemptive plan. To understand its meaning, we need not employ some esoteric or mystical means of interpretation, and when we look at the world and its history we take joy in seeing how much it comports with God’s telling of it. This is not to imply that our observation is by any means the final arbiter of God’s word, but it is to say that we are without excuse before the judgment throne. “I didn’t know” or, “there wasn’t enough evidence” is not a defense that will be allowed. General and Divine revelation speak too much to the authority and truth of Christ.
So then, if the Christian claim is that the gifts continue, then we should see some evidence for it. This simply goes to a matter of credibility — particularly since there are many who are presently claiming that it is continuing, and that the reason it is continuing is to serve the church and serve as evidence for her authority. But what are we seeing? I hear faint words of miraculous things being done in remote areas of the world, but nothing that can be verified. This begs the question, “since the charismatic movement found its revival in the Western world, and the Holy Spirit is moving mightily there, why is there no evidence for it”? Perhaps you will say there is evidence for it. Ok….where? When we look at healing for example, we see cancers and diabetes cured, and there are those who will claim that this serves as adequate evidence. However, when we look at diseases and illnesses such as these, we notice that there exists a certain percentage of cases that experience a spontaneous remission, and that the percentages of cases that experience such remissions are the same in the Christian and secular communities. It is a natural phenomenon that is part and parcel of the disease itself. Show us someone who has been cured of lifelong blindness, or quadriplegia, or even death at the hands of someone who has the gift of healing. We can’t because it simply is not happening. Why? Well it was suggested in an post that this has to do with pride and unbelief. But is this not the state in which the Holy Spirit found us to begin with? Are we not depraved beings who seek not to do the things of God, but indulge in our own sinful ways? It was God who found us, and it is God that justifies and sanctifies. All is grace! And if the Holy Spirit chose to grow the church through demonstrations of power through His gifts, who are we to hinder this choice? Is God not sovereign in all things? I don’t think that the argument of pride and unbelief holds much credibility with a proper understanding of God’s sovereignty. Also, would it not stand to reason that if God is miraculously healing some illnesses like cancer, that he would also choose to do the same with respect to all types of illness? Is He not an equal opportunity healer?
As an anecdote, I would like to add that my mother died of cancer. We did pray for God to heal her. We understand that God is sovereign, and that He does all things to the good for those that love Him, and if she had recovered, we would have given God all the praise. This is not a contradictory statement: God’s sovereignty has not ceased even though the gifts may have. And there was much good in her death: the way we saw God’s peace move over her, the way in which the church came to her in love and prayer, and song and charity. How great was the comfort provided her and her loved ones by the Spirit. This was in itself a tremendous gift that I am most thankful for.
These are just some thoughts that I hope in some small way add to the greater dialectic being offered by men who are much more learned in these things than me. I look forward to continued reading of the posts herein.
Blessings,
Phil
Phil, you may be surprised to know that my mother also died of cancer last year. We did pray for her healing. I can honestly say that she was healed of many of the severe emotional and spiritual problems she had been suffering from since childhood, and she died in more peace than I had ever seen in her before. Nevertheless, it was a hard time, and after much soul-searching, I still can’t say what God’s ultimate purpose might be for it, although I have a certain notion as I continue to grow in Christ.
Regarding your larger question, I find it most extraordinary that you claim there are virtually no healings occurring today based on reliable information. I humbly submit to you that you need to do far more investigation into this issue. I personally know people who have been healed of many illnesses, and in some cases these are true physiological problems like misaligned spines, injured feet, etc. I recently attended a couple of healing meetings where local people (i. e., people I know are local and aren’t “plants”) received healing for blindness, deafness, tumors, arthritis, bone injuries, and more.
Here’s a very close-to-home example: some of the folks in my church’s youth group went out to dinner just a couple of weeks ago and prayed for the waitresses’ injured foot. She felt heat and tingling in the foot (a usual symptom of divine healing) and the pain completely left. She was so excited that she ran off to tell the manager, who came out and asked for prayer for his family troubles! In another case, one of the girls in the youth group prayed for (if my memory serves rightly) the knee of one of the boys in her school, and he began to jump up and down with shock saying it felt like it was on fire! Soon it felt totally better. My church also has a small healing ministry that’s recently started to take off, and I heard about a case where a man whose spine was misaligned so that his arms were different lengths when held in front of him literally saw his shorter arm “grow” out as the spine aligned itself. He and his family who were with him were stunned — they apparently weren’t really expecting that to happen and couldn’t even believe what they saw!
I personally have not yet prayed for healing and seen such an instantaneous result, but I believe with 100% certainly that I will when I’m in the right place with God. However, I can say that I have had prophetic words/images from the Spirit that have come to pass in my own life, and when I was baptized last year (though I accepted Jesus back in the 80’s), I was also baptized in the Holy Spirit and have spoken in tongues. So this really isn’t exactly an academic discussion for me…the gifts of the Spirit are real and tangible and have completely transformed my heart and my devotion to God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
So now you know a bit more where I’m coming from. Many charismatics will tell you similar stories. Thousands and thousands of people all over the world, and yes, even here in the U.S., are being healed and even raised from the dead as God pours out His Spirit upon all flesh in these last days. Whether you believe that to be true or not is up to you.
I believe it.
There are sign gifts today, but not as near as what people claim there are. A gift is given through grace, it is not something that we beg God every day to receive for our own ego. We should strive for the fruits of the Spirit.
Obviously, the prosperity preachers have abused this area which gives it a bad reputation.
It is sad to me that so many are unwilling to listen to the clear witness of their brothers and sisters in Christ. A witness that says that our Lord is still moving mightily by His Spirit in supernatural ways. I believe part of the reason for this is that many look at the extremes within the Pentecostal church and consider them to be the norm for all Charasmatics. I do not deny the legitimacy of these churches but do agree with many here that they have taken a step perhaps in the wrong direction. The abuse of a gift however should never be an argument for its cessation. Many pastors abuse the gift of teaching, yet who would argue its cessation based on such an observation. All it takes is one real utterance of tongues, one true prophecy, one real healing, to blow away as foolishness all the claims that such things have ceased. If your brother in Christ, who loves the Lord with all his heart and bears the fruit of the Holy Spirit claims to speak in tongues or to have been healed (as many have), how will you deny his claims? Why would you want to? I believe that the Lord is pouring out His Spirit in these last days like He said He would in the book of Joel. Indeed He has already begun it!
I was a Charismatic for years and used to move in the gifts at church and overseas and on the street at my job, everywhere.
But you guys have not talked about the fact that these so called gifts you claim to use are dependant on you doing certain things.
For example, how we were taught to heal was to lay hands on the person,see the power of the Holy Spirit within us, in our spirit as a light or fire . Then visualize this power going down your arm and out your hand into the person’s hurting area. We were taught to say a word of release as the visualized power left our hand…”I loose your power”, “the power”, “the anointing”etc, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqlOZVGTVuY
Can anyone show me where in scripture the Lord taught this methodology to his disciples?
No, this is exactly how those in the new age cults are taught to heal.
Look at what Quantum Touch teach and testify to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqlOZVGTVuY
Read Watchman Nee on “The Latent Power of the Soul”
God can and does still heal, we can ask in faith , but we are not to “loose” anything…
Look at how Karate works…releasing sounds as the Chi is focused down through the limb…no different than Benny Hinn saying, “I loose thy touchhhh!”
It is not God…it is soul power.Focused soul power.