Kind regards
Etienne Marais

Here we go again lying to the masses. You are not a member Of WBC. You left the church. You sit in the office during church and do not speak to anyone. Proverbs 21:28 A false witness shall perish: but the man that heareth speaketh constantly. Kathy you left and quit speaking. Had you not forksaken your family? You speak inconstantly. Why won’t you spread the word with your family instead you sit in the office and never picket. Who sit behind a library computer and spreading your version. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

I am in absolute agreement with the position that you take concerning the totally depraved state that ALL of us, as humans, are born in to. I am further in agreement with your position concerning God choosing his “people” his “elect” few BEFORE the foundation of the earth, where he cut the covenant with Christ on their behalf, in eternity past.

I for one am not interested in disrespecting the Living God by challenging his absolute right to choose WHOMEVER HE WANTS as his “people” or “elect”. Further, I am not interested in angering him by adding to or taking away from what he has put in HIS WORD for our learning and edification.

As a possible way of looking at John 3:16, consider that the word “so” to mean “in such a way” or “in such a manner” and it may make it a little clearer to EXCLUDE any love for the Non-elect.

As far as: “If a sinner goes to hell - there will be no blame ascribed to God or to a lack of His love - but rather to the sinful heart of man.” If we all went to hell there would be perfect justice on God’s part in doing so. In fact, if Jesus hadn’t died on the cross for our sins, it would be an abomination on God’s part to let us go to heaven. One has to come to the realization that we all are born completely depraved and “there is none that is good no not one”. Here is an example(I didn’t make this one up…I’m borrowing it from Paul Washer). Let’s say you come home from work and you find a man in your living room who has just killed your wife and kids(or whatever family you have). You catch him and bring him to the authorities and they bring him before a judge. The judge looks down at the murderer and says, “I know you have just done a horrific thing, but because I am a merciful judge I’m going to let you go.” Now you would be outrage along with the rest of the country and everyone would be declaring that judge more wicked than the murderer. That’s sort of what it would be like(but infinitely worst because God is infinitely holier than we are) if Jesus hadn’t died on the cross for our sins. God is justified in sending people to hell and is gracious for sending people to heaven. Now my example: take 4 pedophiles, just as bad in every way, in prison. The governor of that state comes to the prison and says, “I’m going to set two of you free. Which two should he pick? Which ones should God pick to save? None of us. But He is merciful and gracious and sent His Son so that He might be able to pick the ones He wanted…not of any merit of our own…”nothing in my hand I bring simply to the cross I cling.”

You suggest that there is no Scripture to support the idea that God may have some level of love for the non-elect.

I referred to these passages already - but perhaps a little elaboration might help.

John 3:16 - ‘For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever [or he who] believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.’

This verse is pretty straightforward and there is very few exegetical maneuvers available to dodge the clear point that God has some level of love for the world - out of whom those who believe are but only a subset of that world. I have referred to many Calvinists who hold this view [Ian Murray, Warfield, Dabney, etc.] to show that such an interpretation is not necessarily at cross purposes with the doctrine of election, etc.

Your view of world is a stretch beyond all exegetical bounds and is a clear effort to ‘make’ the verse say what you want it to say

Another passage:

Mark 10:21 - ‘and looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him.’
This passage refers to the rich, young ruler who left without eternal life.

You suggest this is merely Jesus in His humanity showing love.

Does it not seem strange to suggest that Jesus in His humanity outdistances Jesus in His deity when it comes to compassion and love?

However - such a view is a dodge of the clear implications of the passage and not very good Christology either. Orthodox Christology holds that Christ as fully God and fully man is a unity and not some sort of schizophrenic alternating personality.

Let us not be ashamed to proclaim the whole gospel - both the wrath of God and the love of God for sinners

While I am no fan of the four spiritual laws - I am pretty sure the gospel is not ‘God hates you and has a horrible plan for your life.’

To me - this view is Calvinism gone to seed

There is a reason - it has never held much sway in church history

You suggest that I don’t really believe Eph. 1:4-6
I disagree

I would argue that you don’t understand the gospel call to repent and believe

The gospel is not - ‘be elect and thou shalt be saved.’
It is a call to repent and believe in Christ

Only the elect will do so - but the call goes out to all - who are even given the option of rejecting it and judging themselves unworthy of eternal life

In dealing with Supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism - I may not have been clear for you but the issue is the logical and Scriptural order of decrees before God created the world.

i.e. - in both schemes election takes place before the foundation of the world

In Infralapsarianism - it takes place after the decree to permit the fall and the plan of salvation being devised.

God’s ultimate purpose is not to have an elect people but rather that He be glorified in His creation. This takes place thru the wondrous cross and the display of God’s incredible love for sinners who have rebelled against Him.

If a sinner goes to hell - there will be no blame ascribed to God or to a lack of His love - but rather to the sinful heart of man.

In the end - the God of all the earth shall do justly

As a parallel study - I think some of the ‘God only hates the non-elect’ view should do some work in theodicy and show us how that view of God leaves us with a God we can worship.

I’m out

Jerry M