The Love of God and the Non-Elect
March 8th, 2007
(By John MacArthur)
As a follow up to this post, today we are asking the question: Does God love only the elect and hate the non-elect?
The fact that some sinners are not elected to salvation is no proof that God’s attitude toward them is utterly devoid of sincere love. We know from Scripture that God is compassionate, kind, generous, and good even to the most stubborn sinners. Who can deny that these mercies flow out of God’s boundless love? Yet it is evident that they are showered even on unrepentant sinners.
It must be acknowledged, however, that explaining God’s love toward the reprobate is not as simple as most modern evangelicals want to make it. Clearly there is a sense in which the psalmist’s expression, “I hate the assembly of evildoers” (Ps. 26:5) is a reflection of the mind of God. “Do I not hate those who hate Thee, O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against Thee? I hate them with the utmost hatred; they have become my enemies” (Ps. 139:21-22). Such hatred as the psalmist expressed is a virtue, and we have every reason to conclude that it is a hatred God Himself shares. After all, He did say, “I have hated Esau” (Mal. 1:3; Rom. 9:13). The context reveals God was speaking of a whole race of wicked people. So there is a true and real sense in which Scripture teaches that God hates the wicked.
So an important distinction must be made. God loves believers with a particular love. It is a family love, the ultimate love of an eternal Father for His children. It is the consummate love of a Bridegroom for His bride. It is an eternal love that guarantees their salvation from sin and its ghastly penalty. That special love is reserved for believers alone.
However, limiting this saving, everlasting love to His chosen ones does not render God’s compassion, mercy, goodness, and love for the rest of mankind insincere or meaningless. When God invites sinners to repent and receive forgiveness (Isa. 1:18; Matt. 11:28-30), His pleading is from a sincere heart of genuine love. “‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’” (Ezek. 33:11). Clearly God does love even those who spurn His tender mercy, but it is a different quality of love, and different in degree from His love for His own.
(Today’s post was adapted from John’s book, The God Who Loves, pp. 14, 16).
I think this is the one place I disagree w/ Dr. MacArthur.
After reading “Justification of God” by John Piper, I can’t agree at all that the context says Esau was representative of a nation only, for Romans 9 anyway. I def. see the “nation” indication for Malachi 1:3, but hard to say if it cannot be brought down to the actual individual twins themselves. It seems to be the force of the argument that God loved one twin specially and hated one specially and that this was applied generally to the nations. I say generally b/c as 2 national identities, yes they’re hated and loved, but not every single Israelite is loved and every single Edomite hated.
Question I need help with: Does anyone know a Biblical or Theological scholar of respected recognition who is a supporter of the doctrine that “God does not love in any way the non-elect?” Besides A.W. Pink, who isn’t really convincing in his arguments, I can’t find anyone. Even John Gill didn’t argee with Pink’s position. I’ve seen Internet articles trying to commend this view but trying to find a recognized scholar either contemporary or in history, who interacts in any real meaningful way with this idea, via Biblical and also theological development. Know, as Reformed throught is somewhat reviving today, that there are many popular preahcing or Internet that gives support - but I’ve exhausted those and need someone to deal more extensively. My resources are limited, so this is an honest question. Help me understand this view by directing me to some good respources. Thanks!
I get discouraged when I read about this God Who seems limited in His capacity to love. The quotes about hatred are from the Old Testament. If the Old Testament folks were accurate in their understanding of God’s nature and had no human influence projected upon His deity, why then, did they need a savior?? I am not rejecting the Old Testament. As a believer of Christ, I love what He loves - He said the OT folks did all the hard work, so I honor and respect that. I think Dr. MacArthur is correct in saying God’s love is expressed differently for the saved versus the lost. I believe that His expression of love for His family is about forming a close bond and developing our expression of faith, but His love for the lost is passionate and sacrificial. We should be well acquainted with this sacrificial love that was extended to us since our God is a savior - we all share the truth of our own need for salvation if we know Jesus as our Lord.
[…] Original post by Pulpit Magazine […]
Doug V. Heck,
Herman Hoeksema (not to be confused with Anthony Hoekema), the founder of the Protestant Reformed Churches, split from the Christian Reformed Church over the issue of Common Grace.
There are three points of Common Grace which the PRC refused to adopt. In particular, they denied that “there is also a certain favor or grace of God which He shows to His creatures in general.”
http://www.prca.org/articles/article_7.html
Thanks Elnwood for your reference to the web article. I have seen a number of such but still am hopeful for some scholarly defence of the view that God only loves the elect and doesn’t love the non-elect. I’m looking for a real defense of that position. A.W. Pink, whose writings I often enjoy is mainly rhetorical but in my humble opinion not in any way an honest scholarly development of the theme. The PRCA article your recommended is in statement form and that by someone I’m not even familiar with (not that I’m especially in the know but follow theology some). I realize this view is in vogue with some contemporary Reformed laymen but I’m trying to give the view a serious look - but can’t locate any real defense of it. Help if you know of either a book or even ThM level thesis or Th.D/Ph.D level dissertation - something that deals with all arguments and in a full treatment and not just a statement. Thanks.
Try to follow me I am trying to keep this pretty concise.
I think that it is necessarily obvious that God loves even the wicked.
1. We are called to even love our enemies. They remain our enemies due to the fact that they are wicked; if it were something on our part they would no longer be our enemies but be reconciled as brothers.
2. When God calls us to do anything, He is calling us to be alligned with His character. God shows grace to both the just and the unjust. God obviously is loving through His actions and through His sovereign will.
3. We are called to care for others through our job of taking the gospel to every nation in order to make disciples. Sharing the gospel is loving thing to do. More importantly, who do we share the gospel with? We share the gospel with the wicked. We are called to love the wicked.
4. We are called to love our neighbor. When we see this we often think of it as mainly loving the brothren but our neighbor can be either saved or unsaved. We are to love the unsaved as God himself loves the unsaved.
5. If we were not called to love the wicked, God would have told us to stay seperate from them. God commands us to continue to be in the world but not of it.
6. Our love for the wicked is somewhat limited though we are not to be unevenly yoked (which implies that there are limits to the extent of our love). Our main source of fellowship is supposed to within the church. Thinking through this logically tells us that the best way that we can show love toward our unsaved neighbor is to give them the gospel.
7. God did not love the wicked he would not give them a chance to receive the gospel.
The only extent is that we often seperate God’s moral will and His sovereign will. It seems that there are points where even though he commands people to do certain things He providentially lets them fall.
It is when I hear the passages that say He wants all to be saved, that at least it seems that this allowing the “two different” wills become one will and it makes me question whether we can seperate His moral from His sovereign will.
Does anybody see what I am saying? It is like me saying I do not ever want to break my arm again. If I were completely able to prevent myself from breaking my arm I would make sure that it did not happen again. So I am confused about that and I was wondering if anybody had something to help with understanding that?
It may be stated in a confusing way but I am a little confused myself so I do not really know how to state it.
OK — for those who want to reject the idea that God has any kind of love for the reprobate, I’m interested:
What is the motivation of God to offer the Gospel to all men — every living thing, as it says in Mark — if it is not some kind of love?
I see God’s love not in terms of the feelings of God, but in terms of the effect of God’s love. We all know that in the end, those in Heaven are the ones God has loved, but how can you say God loved the ones He does not save?
1 John 3:16 “This is how we know love, that Christ died for us”
Those for whom Christ did not die would not know any such love.
Doug - G.C. Berkouwer addresses this issue in his book, ‘The Providence of God’ - in dealing with God’s relationship with the non-elect [pp. 77-87]
He cites Herman Hoeksema and K. Schilder as two proponents of the ‘God has only hatred for the non-elect’ view
Hoeksema’s works cited:
‘The Protestant Reformed Church in America’
‘The Wonder of Grace’
Berkouwer also cites John Murray and Van Til defending the doctrine of God’s love for all as evidenced in common grace - which is also the view Berkouwer took.
MacArthur’s earlier book - ‘The Love of God’ addressed these issues also
and D.A. Carson -’The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God’ is helpful as well.
Dear Jerry M: Having his works but not being a great enthusiast of G.C. Berkouwer I’ll read his word on that and appreciate the reference. The others I’ve read but none of them deal with what I would consider some kind of full development. Thanks for help here. It seems from my historical research that the idea seems to gain a hearing with some folks that first accept Reformed Theology but the error doesn’t seem to have legs, when students grow into a tighter theology with the whole of Scripture considered. Certainly not a debate that is as easy as some others, which Pastor MacArthur mentions and I have also observed. But most do grow out of that idea, especially when they find it has very little historical support - and Reformed Theology is nothing if not thoroughly examined, then examined again. Thanks everyone.
Dear Craig,
Distinctions in God’s Will - Is everything that happens God’s will?
As we have seen, God’s will is seen as the final authority and the ultimate reason for everything that happens. God’s “permitting” or “preventing” in Providence is the determining factor. But is everything that happens God’s will? This can be a very puzzling question unless you make a distinction which is clearly seen in Scripture. The distinction is between God’s Sovereign will and God’s Moral will. Many times in Scripture we see that God’s desire for our moral conduct is violated by the free choices of mankind, yet God does not prevent but rather permits this to occur. So then it is not His “moral will” that evil should take place, but in His “Sovereign will” He has permitted it to happen. We find out God’s “moral will” by simply reading His “precepts” and “commanded will” about what we should do or how we should behave. We find out God’s “Sovereign will” when events actually happen and the “secret” counsel of God is “revealed”, the things He has planned and “decreed” from all eternity. So when we ask questions like, “Is it God’s will for me to do this or that,” we simply look to God’s revelation in Scripture about what He desires for us to do. But when events actually occur, we see what the secret counsel of God’s Sovereign will, what he has ordained and approved(what He has permitted or prevented to occur) as it is revealed in time and space. Therefore it is important when discussing these matters to make a clear distinction in the “will of God” for the sake of properly understanding one another when we make statements about God’s will.
Grudem explains this well in his Sys Theo chapter 16 on Providence….
“So there is a true and real sense in which Scripture teaches that God hates the wicked.” Do you mean like the Scripture Psalm 5:4-5 “For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You. The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate ALL workers of iniquity.” That is not my words…that’s all from Scripture. The proof is there in the Bible that God hates those who are not elected. Where is the proof that He loves them with a lesser love? Why do we call “God giving rain to the just and unjust” love when He plainly says I hate (not love with a lesser love) the wicked? I don’t have proof that it is common grace with which He uses to hold this universe together, but I do have proof that it isn’t love. So then it has to be something that gives the wicked “rain”. God has done all that He has done for His own glory. Part of that is keeping the wicked from exhibiting their full depraved nature so that He can get things accomplished…like salvation for His chosen for His glory.
“His pleading is from a sincere heart of genuine love. “‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?’” (Ezek. 33:11).” Shouldn’t you keep reading on in that chapter? The wicked are the ones He talks about turning from their sins and they are saved and the “righteous” are not saved because they relied on their own righteousness. Therefore, the people to whom He was crying out to in vs 11 are the ones who turn to Him away from their sins…the elect…the same way we did when we turned to Him…out of grace alone. This chapter is an example of how God works…I’m not saying that these wicked people actually turned from their sins, but that when God calls out to the wicked it is because they will turn. He is telling Ezekiel to tell the people that this is how He operates…vs19. God doesn’t call out to a spiritually dead person who isn’t going to respond because He hasn’t called him…this thinking goes against the rest of NT teachings.
[…] Original post by unknown […]
Jerry –
That’s an interesting suggestion.
How does God justly not punish any sinner at the moment of His sin but hold back wrath to some future date? Particularly, how does God not punish someone who, eternally speaking, is destined for Hell immediately upon that peson’s first sin and still maintain that He is Just?
It seems to me that God’s longsuffering even toward the reprobate relies actively on the propitiation of Christ — Christ’s death justifies God’s temporal mercy on the wicked.
Thoughts?
Great post Sarah. That is how I see it also. I do believe that there is a different type of love in God though. God loves man as His creation and what Turk states here,- (quote)”It seems to me that God’s longsuffering even toward the reprobate relies actively on the propitiation of Christ — Christ’s death justifies God’s temporal mercy on the wicked.”(eq)-, may be a good way of looking at this. This may be love in the sense that it is longsuffering and love is longsuffering, but it also adds to their final condemnation.
Turk asked: What is the motivation of God to offer the Gospel to all men — every living thing, as it says in Mark — if it is not some kind of love?
Fred Responds: It is written that God’s Word never comes back to Him void, that it accomplishes it’s purpose. I read that the Gospel is given so that it accomplishes what God wills it to accomplish; either saving faith or damnation. On the damnation side, it is not really good news but works alongside the Law in condemnation. In that sense it is the culmination of the Law for the Law was given to show us our depravity.- reject the Gospel and you rejected the only way to become righteous through the only one that ever was righteous in Himself.
Frank - I think you might be on to something. Berkouwer definitely linked the reality of God’s longsuffering towards all sinners with a benevolent disposition on God’s part. Whether that must flow from the merits of the cross? Seems plausible.
I found it interesting that Berkouwer - who seems pretty well read - could only list Hoeksema and Schilder for the heavy weights of the ‘God has only hatred for the non elect’ view.
One can see why in Ian Murray’s ‘The Old Evangelicalism’. His chapter on the cross as the pulpit of God’s love reads like a Puritan and Reformed directory with all pointing to God’s love for the world in some sense. He quotes Calvin, B.B. Warfield, Thomas Chalmers, et. al. I agree with Doug - there is very little if any scholarly support for the opposing view.
My question for Sarah:
Before you came to Christ - did God love you or hate you?
Were you Psalm 5:5/ Eph. 2:3 or Eph. 1:4?
Jerry,
Christ was slain before the foundations of the world. Have ever wondered why? Before the foundations of the world God had picked out His chosen people. Have you ever wondered why? God wanted a bride to give to Jesus and so it was decided that we would be created. God’s plan included the fall and redemption. Because God is a holy God He couldn’t love a depraved fallen people, therefore, Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. He came to earth to fulfill His plan physically (to go through the same things we do only in a nonsinful way etc, etc), but He was slain before the foundations of the world which means He could love His elect! Do you wonder how Abraham and all the rest of the elect before Jesus’ physical appearence got to heaven and didn’t go to hell? By faith…faith in what? In Christ Jesus Who had been slain already and Who told Abraham of the fulfillment of that promise that it would come through his seed. So, yes, God loved me before I was saved and that’s how. Now I have a question for you. Does God love the people in hell? No. What is different about the people in hell and the people on their way to hell? God’s grace. You strip His grace from their lives and what you will find is a totally depraved creature with God’s wrath on him. John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the WRATH of God abides on him.”
The only reason God has grace upon them is so that He might fulfill His purposes here on earth…one of those purposes is to let His people live among other people who don’t exhibit their total depravity.
I appreciate Sarahs spunk.
Thank you Sarah.
First of all, Mr. McAthur’s commetary follows the typical argument from reason,rather than revelation, (scripture). This always bothers me. That men would become so confident in their logic, that they would espouse a position, without really establishing the argument on a biblical premise.
Give a bible Verse, or 2,-5 Which clearly and explicitly affirms God’s love for the ungodly.
To not do this, is to invite endless arguments based upon our own depraved rational.
There are tons of theological works out there, which do the same thing on different subjects.
If we bow to scripture, we say, “it does not explicitly declare or sufficiently develop any such notion. So I am giving you what I think”
That would be the noble thing to do!
Having said, that, as far as Calvin is concerned, if you read His commentary on John 3:16, you would find that the Calvinist Himself, follows Johns conclusions while making it very clear, that the electing love of God, is uniquely redemptive, while for the non elect it is clearly not.
But, A love that does not save? A love that only calls.
A love that preserves for hell, leaves men outside of the Ark? At their own behest of course. We all deserve Hell.
But think of it. God loves you. But you are still going to hell for your sins, and His unmitigated wrath will abide upon you everlastingly.
He loves you, but his Son did not pay for your sins. He loves you, but He will leave you dead in trespasses and sins unable to respond, willing or doing.
But He does love you in some way!
Wouldn’t be safer to say what scripture says?
He is kind, patient, benevolent, longsuffering, etc; but His love, is found in His Son.
Repent, and experiences the mercy of God in His saving Love, for His elect. Continue in your rebellion, and the wrath of God abides upon you already.
Why give them a false hope?
By his Grace, alone
Pastor Jesse Gistand
This
I’m not trying to show spunk and it has nothing to do with me or what I think.It has everything to do with God and His holiness. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The God of the OT is the same God of the NT and is the same God of today and for eternity. Because God is love He has to hate sinful and wicked people who will never be His. Just as we love children we also hate abortion. How much more with a holy God who is nothing like us. I don’t want to sound ugly to Dr. MacArthur…I love him as my brother in the Lord…we need him like we need other gifted pastors. He knows a lot more than I do, but some things are quite clear in Scripture and my first allegence is to God. Even Paul the apostle told his reads to search Scripture to see if what he said was true, of course it was, because what he said was inspired of God. He wanted people to search Scripture so that they could see and learn for themselves that what he said was true. I’m doing the same and will continue to learn from His Book and from pastors like John M., Paul Washer etc, etc.
Sarah - my question is, ‘Were you ever a child of wrath?’ - as phrased in Eph. 2:3
i.e. - were you personally under the wrath of God at any point in your life?
I believe Sarah to be on the proper track. God does hate those who practice sin. Yes, His love for those who are His is such that we cannot be separated from it, ever. He is sovereign and all the other attributes He is so His justice is never at odds with His love as Sarah pointed out with the abortion argument. Yet, in spite of His hatred of those who practice evil He offers a way of salvation to all mankind. Who can understand that kind of love? We get in real trouble when we think we understand all that is God. He said, “My ways are not your ways.” To say that not all people have the opportunity to be saved is something I cannot accept biblically. He desires not one to be lost and so I accept that. I can’t wait to spend my eternity with Him and learn more and more of what is His holiness and to know Him in intimate fellowship. Have I been under His wrath? Certainly, before I was saved. We know that we are told in Romans 11 not to boast in our salvation but to tremble and so I do. But like the examples in the NT, the final wrath of God waits until that day of judgement, echoing the words of Jesus, “go and sin no more so that nothing worse happens to you,” the judgement delayed so that all may have their eyes opened to their true spiritual condition (”for they have been blinded to the truth by the god of this world”) so they may see themselves as God sees them, unholy and storing up wrath, that they may for the first time in their life have the opportunity to make a true choice of the will, to accept or reject the gospel message. Certainly it is the Holy Spirit of Christ who works through the Law written on the hearts of every person to do this. I cannot believe we argue over Calvinism and Arminianism. It is God at work, coming “to seek and save the lost.” Somewhere between and amongst the positions is God. We just seem to get caught up in spiritual pride over “us and them.”
Sorry for the rant but my life is committed to seeking the lost, biblically and not with “God has a wonderful plan for your life,” or seeker sensitive crud.
John
Yes, of course, I was! There was nothing good about me or anyone else to deserve His saving grace or His love. He chose me before the foundation of the world only because He wanted to not for anything I had done. So while even though I had a depraved nature(my flesh still is but I have Christ’s new nature now)He didn’t destine me to His eternal wrath but out of His grace set His love upon me and gave me a new nature in Christ so that He could love me…all of which was decided upon before the foundation of the world. You guys, I’m not saying I know all the ends and outs to this…I have a lot more studying to do on this matter which I’m actually doing now. Who knows maybe I am wrong, in which case, I will find out by further study. But from what I have found up to this point in time and the fact that no one has been able to give me Biblical evidence to the contray, I have to stick with what I have found so far. I use to think in my teenage years that I could lose my salvation because that’s what was taught in my church. It wasn’t until I actually sat down and read the Bible for myself that I found that not to be true…so I’m always learning and will be for eternity. Can you imagine how pitiful all of our knowledge will look like when we get to heaven and can understand His word when He teaches us it? How many flaws do we have in our belief? I don’t know but this I do know it is by grace and His hand that He saves, it is by grace and His hand that we are sanctified and it is by His grace and hand that we will be glorified and I thank Him for that. I’m not trying to teach anyone anything here…I’m no teacher, but I try to be bold with my statements/questions in order to learn. Jerry, prove my statements wrong. I don’t mind being wrong as long as I end up with the truth. If you know the truth of God, then give it to me for that is all I long for because that is all that matters. I am teachable through His word, but I study to make sure what someone tells me is right.
[…] Posted by healtheland on March 10th, 2007 Here is an attempt to defend the utterly unscriptural doctrine of Calvinism. Translation: God created a bunch of people for the express purpose of sending them to the lake of fire for eternity, but He loves them and is a fair, righteous, just God anyway. Listen, Calvinism was created by a MAN. It is ONE MAN’S INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURE. That is why people who adhere to this doctrine are called CALVINISTS, AFTER HIS NAME. Would it not be better to adhere to the BIBLE, and be called after GOD’S NAME? Now, of course, I am not saying that no Calvinists are saved, or even that any fewer Calvinists are saved than any other denomination. After all, Calvinists are still CHRISTIAN. But come on here, consider the five points of Calvinism: […]
Sarah - the only reason I asked if you were ever a child of wrath [as described in Eph. 2:3] is to show that the issue is not so simple as saying God loves the elect and hates the non-elect.
In time all sinners before salvation are objects of His hatred. [Ps. 5:5, Eph. 2:3] and are under His wrath.
That is due to God’s holy nature, His perfect justice, etc.
However - that is not the whole picture of God. He is also a God of love and mercy - who chooses to show love to creatures that in actuality offend His holiness and deserve His wrath.
In our human understanding of love and hatred - we see the two as being unable to co-exist at the same time.
However - if we are fair to Scripture - we find that God can actually hate the sinner who is an object of His wrath - and at the same time - act also in a loving manner towards Him.
That is the only way to put Eph. 1:4 and 2:3 together. As an unbeliever - I am under wrath. However - when I believed - I found out that God had set His love on me from before the foundation of the world.
Of course - once a person is saved - all that is left is God’s love - His wrath being propitiated at the cross on our behalf.
The issue being raised here - for people that are following closely - ‘Does God have any kind of love for the non-elect? Or does He only hate the non-elect?’
The position of MacArthur, Carson, Warfield, Ian Murray, John Murray, Van Til is that, ‘yes’ - Scripture teaches that God does have a general love for all in this world [common grace]. We are not talking about those already who have died or God’s attitude in the future towards those in hell. We are talking only about the lost in this world who still have opportunity to repent and believe.
John 3:16 - teaches a general love for the world - out of which a subset will believe and not perish.
Mark 10:21 - Jesus had a love for the young ruler - who walked away without repentance
The dangers of not allowing God to love all - requires that a person gain a sense of their election before they can even believe that God loves them. That greatly distorts the gospel invitation.
Ian Murray writes: ‘This love is to be proclaimed as ‘good news’ not to men as elect but to men as sinners. That is why any message that would not include love to individuals until there is evidence of their election turns the gospel upside down. It withholds the very truth most conducive to bringing souls to rest in Christ.’ [The Old Evangelicalism, p. 121]
Carson says the danger of absolutizing or treating God’s love as one dimensional results in ‘[generating] a false system that squeezes out other important things the Bible says, thus finally distorting your vision of God.’ [The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God, p. 75]
This view that ‘God has only hatred’ for the non-elect is an extension of supralapsarianism and a speculative view on the order of God’s decrees.
My personal view is commonly referred to as infrlapsarianism - meaning that God decreed to create, permit the fall, devised a plan of salvation including the work of Christ on the cross, then chose the elect
In this view - God views humanity in general as fallen.
He then ordains to save thru the cross
He then chooses to save some - because in our fallen nature we will not choose Him
This view makes sense - because You can’t be elected to salvation until something is in place to be saved from.
Anyway - I’ve gone on long enough
You can have the last word
Grace and Peace
Jerry M
Calvinism is just a theological shortcut to describe what the Bible teaches about the doctrine of grace, much like Trinitarianism is a theological short cut used to describe the nature of God. I do not follow John Calvin or his teachings, I have seen for myself through Bible study that he and many others are correct in their understanding of what the Bible teaches us about grace and salvation. I, like most everyone started out as an Arminian and through Bible study realized that “Calvinism” was the correct understanding of grace and salvation. Arminianism is the standard default mode. We want to think that there is just enough good in us (a bastion of pride) that we deserve to be saved by God and that by the use of our own intellectual powers (something to boast about) we can see Jesus as the Messiah, where others don’t. In the end it is either man that determines who will be sent to hell or it is God. The Bible convinces me that God is 100% in charge of making that choice, lest any man should boast.
“The position of MacArthur, Carson, Warfield, Ian Murray, John Murray, Van Til is that, ‘yes’ - Scripture teaches that God does have a general love for all in this world [common grace]… I know what these men believe, but what Scripture supports their belief that’s what I’m interested in. Also, common grace doesn’t equal love. Show me in Scripture where it does and then you have a case.
!
“We are not talking about those already who have died or God’s attitude in the future towards those in hell. We are talking only about the lost in this world who still have opportunity to repent and believe.”…You apparently don’t REALLY believe in Eph.1:4-6. The ones who are not chosen never have an opportunity to repent and believe (we don’t know who they are so we are still to offer the Gospel to everyone and love them as God commanded us). If you believed in Eph 1:4-6 you would then know that God had already determined to justify us, thus, He could love us even though we were
under His wrath until the point of our salvation.
“John 3:16 - teaches a general love for the world - out of which a subset will believe and not perish.” “For God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”…why do you think this is talking of the whole entire race of mankind? The clue is here: “that whoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” He is talking to His elect because the nonelect will never believe in Him for salvation so He isn’t talking to them. The Bible sometimes uses “all” or “world” etc but is speaking only of the things of God. For example, 1Cor. 13:4 says that “love believes all things”. Now we know that it doesn’t believe that Allah is God along with God the Father. So it doesn’t believe all things in this world but all things of God.
“This love is to be proclaimed as ‘good news’ not to men as elect but to men as sinners”…of course we are to deliver the Good News to all men as sinners and not as elect because we don’t know who the elect are because we are not God.
“Carson says the danger of absolutizing or treating God’s love as one dimensional results in ‘[generating] a false system that squeezes out other important things the Bible says, thus finally distorting your vision of God.’ [The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God, p. 75]”…Of course God’s love isn’t one dimensional, it is everlasting without end and is beyond our comprehension, however, you still haven’t given me Scripture to support God’s love for people who are under His wrath never to come out from underneath it.
“This view that ‘God has only hatred’ for the non-elect is an extension of supralapsarianism and a speculative view on the order of God’s decrees.”…I’m not familiar with Calvin’s writings. I looked up this word and would really have to study it in detail to comment, but on the surface it sounds right.
“My personal view is commonly referred to as infrlapsarianism - meaning that God decreed to create, permit the fall, devised a plan of salvation including the work of Christ on the cross, then chose the elect”…I was right you don’t believe in Eph 1:4. Your personal beliefs have nothing to do with the truth. You need to form you beliefs around many Scriptural verses not just pick out some that sound like they fit with your personal beliefs. None of us have everything right, but when we do find Scripture that discredits our beliefs we need to change our beliefs. Eph 1:4 is very plain and upfront with what it means.
” This view makes sense - because You can’t be elected to salvation until something is in place to be saved from.”…to our human minds you can’t, and that is why we are not God. God can do this because He PLANNED EVERYTHING. Finally, Jesus came to earth fully God and fully man and He operated in both capacities at the same time without sin. Therefore, Jesus as fully man loved the rich, young ruler because Scripture says so and that gives us our example to love everyone, but He hated him as fully God because the rich, young ruler was not of the elect and went to hell. Sometimes we like to bring Jesus down to where we are or lift ourselves up to where Jesus was when He was on earth. This is wrong. Even though He was fully man we must never forget that He was also fully God. Jesus is our example but more than that He is our Lord and Savior. God has commanded us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us…why? First, because we don’t know who the elect are. Second, because we can’t hate with a holy hatred, and therefore, we sin when we hate. Jesus was our example here on earth in loving those who persecuted Him so that we might learn, but we should never bring Him down to our level on how we are to fulfill this command, because He did know His elect and He was quite capable of hating with an holy hatred. He was gracious to us in that He came down to earth as fully man and fully God so that we might have an example of how to live our lives (this is the lesser part of His purpose for coming to earth). Have no worries though I’m still studying on the love subject.
In the book of Revelation, Jesus extends the invitation of grace to Jezebel, an Old Testament woman of villainous repute, who refuses to repent. Her choice leads to a bed of suffering. Interesting - a New Testament invitation to an Old Testament character. But she refuses. Why? Because she is successful at sinning and she is rejecting the invitation given by God. Our sin does not disqualify us from the love of God, but those who are indoctrinated/empowered and successful in their sin will not love Him in return. The world hates Jesus, but Jesus loves the world. In order to be saved, we need to respond with love towards God.
Jesus was the anticipated savior of the Old Testament folks and is the final authority. The continual references to the Old Testament scriptures in which God is hateful (in the New Testament, God hates our practices but not us) leaves me saddened and thinking that some do not believe His words to love even the enemy. We have nothing to lose if we truly believe Him.
Rev2:20-22 “Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.”
ARE YOU SURE, BEAUTIFUL FEET? WHAT ABOUT:
Rom.9:14 “What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, AND WHOM HE WILLS HE HARDENS” (emphasis mine)
AND…
Malachi 2:1 “And now, O priests, this commandment is for you.
2 If you will not hear,
And if you will not take it to heart,
To give glory to My name,”
Says the LORD of hosts,
“ I will send a curse upon you,
And I will curse your blessings.
Yes, I have cursed them already,
Because you do not take it to heart.”
He says here if you don’t do this or that, I’ll do this and this… and then in the next breath He says I’ve already done it… because He didn’t soften their hearts to do so but instead hardened them as He did Pharaoh in order to show…Rom 9:22 “What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”
Sarah:
When was the last time you read the book of Jonah?
Before you answer, I want you to think about Chapter 4 of Jonah and how both Jonah and God characterize God’s actions toward the Ninevites.
Turk,
I characterize Jonah as not loving God enough to do as He said (and as He says we are to now by preaching the Gospel to lost souls in truth with a loving heart that shows the love of God to everyone we meet…surprised you there didn’t I?…we aren’t God who has a holy hatred for the nonelect we just have sinful hatred and we are not God who knows who the elect are…WE ARE NOT GOD…He is nothing like His creation from the highest angel to the lowest particle on this earth. His holiness demands more than we think and more than any of us can imagine) with a joyful attitude. In fact, he down right disobeyed at first, but just like God ALWAYS does…He got His way. I characterize God as loving a group of people as His elect and saving them by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone. I view the nation of Ninevites as a once depraved people who were elected for salvation and are now enjoying bowing before God’s holiness and all His splendor and learning all about what Christ did on the cross for His father and because of the love relationship the Godhead has for each other…oh, and us too…but we are secondary. That ought to be enough to keep us humble, but it isn’t….soon very soon! I can’t wait! I know you guys think that I’m this unloving harsh old woman sitting at her computer with no experience in this area…but I’m not according to human terms. My dearest sister is not saved. I don’t know if she ever will be saved. That can sometimes just drive me crazy! But who am I compared to my holy Lord? I pray fervently for her and ask other people to…why? Because in the Lord’s Prayer He instructed us to do so. I don’t pray to change His mind (whatever that may be) I pray for her salvation, but ultimately for Him to be glorified. I pray each day that He changes my will to line up with His…what else could I want but His will?…I belong to Him and everything I have came from Him and still does out of His mercy to me…He owes me nothing I owe Him everything but I’ll never be able to repay anything…Amazing grace how sweet the sound!
I think when I see professing believers who argue for people going to hell, they’re actually cooperating with the process of damnation. It’s not constructive.
Beautiful Feet read Romans 9 and Ephesians 1&2 and all of the other verses that give God the glory for saving people. You won’t find any verse that says humans save. If you don’t like the doctrine of election take it up with God, but don’t say that I’m cooperating with Satan to send people to hell…how strong is your God? Can I send someone to hell when He has called them? Can I save someone when He has not chosen them? See how silly your statement is? I can’t do anything outside of His will. If I’m completely wrong and God does love everyone, then He will either show me or clunk me over the head in order to show me. Go find the Scriptures that will reveal my error. I’ve come to the table with some Scripture(a small amount I would agree…I’ve got more)now you do the same. Show by SCRIPTURE where I’m wrong and not by your own opinion which is as worthless as mine. Like I said before, I’m teachable inside the parameter of Scripture in man’s mere opinion of what they think God should be like.
“not” in man’s mere…
sorry I don’t edit well.
Now these two Scriptures could be saying that I’m wrong.
Romans 9:22 “What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much LONGSUFFERING the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction…”
AND
1Cor. 13:4 “Love suffers long…”
I’m hesitant because the same Scriptures also say that “[love]believes all things” and we know that the “all things” is pertaining to the things of Christ. So is the whole verse just talking about all things of Christ since there are many “all things” in this grouping of what love is…so I suffer(or take up my cross)all things of Christ? Or is it just a list for us that doesn’t apply to God because God does parade Himself(He must show off His glory)and the Scripture says that love doesn’t parade itself(we shouldn’t because we don’t have anything to parade)or Does the longsuffering itself leave this chapter and reach into Romans 9? I know the Greek word for longsuffering is the same in both books…keeping in mind Psalms 5:5…how does it all fit if at all…any thoughts from everyone who is mad at me?
. I told you I was still studying this subject..now can you help me out?
Sarah, I apologize for that last comment. I could include scripture, but I think it takes up a lot of room for people who already have a set notion about this issue. I respect that you are studying and learning. We are called to be salt and form convictions about our faith. We as believers have a unifying faith even in our open disagreement - we have hope in the promises of a God who overcame death. Thanks for your comments, Sarah!
And I apologize for my self-righteous attitude. Sometime when I START out defending God I end up defending my pride….never fails to rear its ugly head. I listened to a sermon last night by Paul Washer who helped me back into reality. I will continue this study but with less ummm…well, here is the sermon if you are interested. Its called Pray and Not Lose Heart.
http://www.heartcrymissionary.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=12&Itemid=131
Sarah - I thought I would reply to a couple of ideas you threw out.
You suggest that there is no Scripture to support the idea that God may have some level of love for the non-elect.
I referred to these passages already - but perhaps a little elaboration might help.
John 3:16 - ‘For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever [or he who] believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.’
This verse is pretty straightforward and there is very few exegetical maneuvers available to dodge the clear point that God has some level of love for the world - out of whom those who believe are but only a subset of that world. I have referred to many Calvinists who hold this view [Ian Murray, Warfield, Dabney, etc.] to show that such an interpretation is not necessarily at cross purposes with the doctrine of election, etc.
Your view of world is a stretch beyond all exegetical bounds and is a clear effort to ‘make’ the verse say what you want it to say
Another passage:
Mark 10:21 - ‘and looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him.’
This passage refers to the rich, young ruler who left without eternal life.
You suggest this is merely Jesus in His humanity showing love.
Does it not seem strange to suggest that Jesus in His humanity outdistances Jesus in His deity when it comes to compassion and love?
However - such a view is a dodge of the clear implications of the passage and not very good Christology either. Orthodox Christology holds that Christ as fully God and fully man is a unity and not some sort of schizophrenic alternating personality.
Let us not be ashamed to proclaim the whole gospel - both the wrath of God and the love of God for sinners
While I am no fan of the four spiritual laws - I am pretty sure the gospel is not ‘God hates you and has a horrible plan for your life.’
To me - this view is Calvinism gone to seed
There is a reason - it has never held much sway in church history
You suggest that I don’t really believe Eph. 1:4-6
I disagree
I would argue that you don’t understand the gospel call to repent and believe
The gospel is not - ‘be elect and thou shalt be saved.’
It is a call to repent and believe in Christ
Only the elect will do so - but the call goes out to all - who are even given the option of rejecting it and judging themselves unworthy of eternal life
In dealing with Supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism - I may not have been clear for you but the issue is the logical and Scriptural order of decrees before God created the world.
i.e. - in both schemes election takes place before the foundation of the world
In Infralapsarianism - it takes place after the decree to permit the fall and the plan of salvation being devised.
God’s ultimate purpose is not to have an elect people but rather that He be glorified in His creation. This takes place thru the wondrous cross and the display of God’s incredible love for sinners who have rebelled against Him.
If a sinner goes to hell - there will be no blame ascribed to God or to a lack of His love - but rather to the sinful heart of man.
In the end - the God of all the earth shall do justly
As a parallel study - I think some of the ‘God only hates the non-elect’ view should do some work in theodicy and show us how that view of God leaves us with a God we can worship.
I’m out
Jerry M
Jerry,
I’ve already addressed these verses and I didn’t make up the interpretations of them I got them from very reformed preachers. I don’t want to argue old things but maybe you can shed some light on the last ones I brought up?
As far as: “If a sinner goes to hell - there will be no blame ascribed to God or to a lack of His love - but rather to the sinful heart of man.” If we all went to hell there would be perfect justice on God’s part in doing so. In fact, if Jesus hadn’t died on the cross for our sins, it would be an abomination on God’s part to let us go to heaven. One has to come to the realization that we all are born completely depraved and “there is none that is good no not one”. Here is an example(I didn’t make this one up…I’m borrowing it from Paul Washer). Let’s say you come home from work and you find a man in your living room who has just killed your wife and kids(or whatever family you have). You catch him and bring him to the authorities and they bring him before a judge. The judge looks down at the murderer and says, “I know you have just done a horrific thing, but because I am a merciful judge I’m going to let you go.” Now you would be outrage along with the rest of the country and everyone would be declaring that judge more wicked than the murderer. That’s sort of what it would be like(but infinitely worst because God is infinitely holier than we are) if Jesus hadn’t died on the cross for our sins. God is justified in sending people to hell and is gracious for sending people to heaven. Now my example: take 4 pedophiles, just as bad in every way, in prison. The governor of that state comes to the prison and says, “I’m going to set two of you free. Which two should he pick? Which ones should God pick to save? None of us. But He is merciful and gracious and sent His Son so that He might be able to pick the ones He wanted…not of any merit of our own…”nothing in my hand I bring simply to the cross I cling.”
Sarah, that was really gracious of you and thanks for the reference to the sermon - I’ll try and listen to it. I appreciate your comments and by the way, I too know firsthand about that spiritual virus, pride - I used to think I could protect and empower myself because I didn’t trust or believe God was powerful enough to do that. I guess I had the wrong God! I like faith better! May He bless you, Sarah!
I would say to Sarah, that you are a good example to follow, when it comes to admitting that you could be wrong. Further, that you are a good example to follow when it comes to always referring back to what the Bible says, as the importance of it is such that God has elevated it above himself, in importance.
I am in absolute agreement with the position that you take concerning the totally depraved state that ALL of us, as humans, are born in to. I am further in agreement with your position concerning God choosing his “people” his “elect” few BEFORE the foundation of the earth, where he cut the covenant with Christ on their behalf, in eternity past.
I for one am not interested in disrespecting the Living God by challenging his absolute right to choose WHOMEVER HE WANTS as his “people” or “elect”. Further, I am not interested in angering him by adding to or taking away from what he has put in HIS WORD for our learning and edification.
As a possible way of looking at John 3:16, consider that the word “so” to mean “in such a way” or “in such a manner” and it may make it a little clearer to EXCLUDE any love for the Non-elect.
Katherine Phelps-Griffin? Are you a member of Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas? The one holding up signs saying “thank God for dead soldiers”?
Yeah, john f.
Perhaps better to spend this time getting God’s word out to the lost,rather than in an almost endless arguement.
Kathy,
Here we go again lying to the masses. You are not a member Of WBC. You left the church. You sit in the office during church and do not speak to anyone. Proverbs 21:28 A false witness shall perish: but the man that heareth speaketh constantly. Kathy you left and quit speaking. Had you not forksaken your family? You speak inconstantly. Why won’t you spread the word with your family instead you sit in the office and never picket. Who sit behind a library computer and spreading your version. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Dear Pulpit Magazine
My name is Etienne Marais and I am 18 years
old. Recently I read a letter in the TV Plus
where a reader spoke up against Harry Potter.
As a Christian I wish to state that the Bible
clearly tells us to have nothing to do with
witchcraft.
When I was 14 years old I had the most terrible
experience. For a long time I heard voices that
repeated over and over:’Harry must go.’ As a
Christian I would like to warn people who are
crazy about Harry Potter. Rather stay away
before you also have to experience the trauma
that I did.
I am praying for the salvation of everyone
involved with Harry Potter some way or another.
I’ve also sent e-mails to some of them to tell
them that God loves them and that I will keep
on praying for tehir salvation.
Kind regards
Etienne Marais