Prophecy and the Closed Canon (Part 3)
February 9th, 2007
(By John MacArthur)
From the time of the apostles until the present, the true church has always believed that the Bible is complete. God has given his revelation, and now Scripture is finished. God has spoken. What He gave is complete, efficacious, sufficient, inerrant, infallible, and authoritative. Attempts to add to the Bible, and claims of further revelation from God have always been characteristic of heretics and cultists, not the true people of God.
Although charismatics deny that they are trying to add to Scripture, their views on prophetic utterance, gifts of prophecy, and revelation really do just that. As they add—however unwittingly—to God’s final revelation, they undermine the uniqueness and authority of the Bible. New revelation, dreams, and visions are considered as binding on the believers conscience as the book of Romans or the gospel of John.
Some charismatics would say that people misunderstand what they mean by prophetic utterance and new revelation. They would say that no effort is being made to change Scripture or even equal it. What is happening, they assume, is the clarifying of Scripture as it is applied or directed to a contemporary setting, such as the prophecy of Agabus in Acts 11:28.
The line between clarifying Scripture and adding to it is indeed a thin one. But Scripture is not clarified by listening to someone who thinks he has the gift of prophecy. Scripture is clarified as it is carefully and diligently studied. There are no shortcuts to interpreting God’s word accurately (cf. Acts 17:11; 2 Tim. 2:15).
Christians must not play fast and loose with the issues of inspiration and revelation. An accurate understanding of those doctrines is essential for distinguishing between the voice of God and the human voice. Men who professed to speak for God but spoke their own opinions were to be executed under the Old Testament law (Deut. 13:1–5). New Testament believers are also urged to test the spirits and judge all supposed prophecies, shunning false prophets and heretics (1 John 4:1; 1 Cor. 14:29).
The Holy Spirit is working mightily in the church today, but not in the way most charismatics think. The Holy Spirit’s role is to empower us as we preach, teach, write, talk, witness, think, serve, and live. He does lead us into God’s truth and direct us into God’s will for our lives. But He does it through God’s Word, never apart from it. To refer to the Holy Spirit’s leading and empowering ministry as inspiration or revelation is a mistake. To use phrases such as “God spoke to me,” or “This wasn’t my idea; the Lord gave it to me,” or “These aren’t my words, but a message I received from the Lord” confuses the issue of the Spirit’s direction in believers’ lives today.
Inviting that kind of confusion plays into the hands of the error that denies the uniqueness and absolute authority of Scripture. The terms and concepts of Ephesians 5:18–19 and 2 Peter 1:21 are not to be mixed. Being filled with the Spirit and speaking to one another in psalms and hymns is not the same as being moved by the Holy Spirit to write inspired Scripture.
To give the other side of the issue,
It seems that John MacArthur is dealing with two separate issues here. The first is the tendency of charismatics to not study the Bible for all its worth and the second (surely related to it) is the relationship between prophecy and the canon of Scripture, and the apparent contradiction between the Canon being closed and inerrant revelation being open.
I lament with John MacArthur the tendency of charismatics to be doctrinally shallow and loose in their handling of the Word of God. The object of people like me in being a “Reformed Charismatic” or “Charismatic Calvinist” is to counteract this sloppiness and disregard for the Word of God, while still holding (what we believe is) a Biblical view of the charismatic gifts of the Spirit.
Which brings us to our second dilemma, if inerrant prophecy can still occur today, then doesn’t that pose a problem for the authority of Scripture? Short answer: no.
Scripture itself teaches that it is unique among all God’s revelation [insert the previous two posts here]. It is not simply inerrant, authoritative prophecy to be interpreted by and understood in light of other prophecy of the same nature. The Bible is distinct in that it carries a specific story line and is a sufficient revelation of God’s will for all people everywhere at all times. To equate Scripture with all inerrant communication is a grave mistake for it is not, according to itself, merely a volume of every inerrant, infallible, authoritative word from God (John 21:25, with plenty more examples).
Scripture actually makes it clear that it is above inerrant prophecy. 1 Cor 14:37 says, “If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.”
Those who think they are prophets of course include those who are actually prophets. And Paul tells these inspired prophets to “acknowledge that the things I am writing (a.k.a. Scripture)… are a command of the Lord.”
Scripture itself then is no mere prophecy – it is the command of the Lord for all prophets, clearly putting prophecy in its proper place, and even more powerfully, putting Scripture into its own exalted category.
This is further supported by the fact that nowhere in Scripture is the writing of Scripture talked about as a gift from the Lord or said to be an equivalent to prophecy. Of course certain prophecies are recorded, but even then, the author of Scripture had to have a different level of authority to include certain prophecies and drop others.
I hope that makes sense and clears up some of the cessationists’ problems with the charismatic position on modern-day revelation.
Robert
Scripture is far from the mind of charismatics when they ‘prophecy over someone’or claim to have a ‘word of knowledge’.Their ‘prophecy’is more like fortunetelling or reading into the future for that person.This is an abomination to our holy God !
Even the ‘word of knowledge’i.e.revelation about that person &/or his situation,supposedly from the Holy Spirit,is many a times quite blunt,not in love at all.
But it is popular,as most of them hardly spend any time reading the Word of God,but instead spend hours & hours ’seeking’gifts of Holy Spirit by praying in tongues.
I suppose it is most unfruitful waste of time !
God bless you John for your expository preaching from just the Word of God.A mighty ‘thank you’.
Saroj – why is it that you are ignoring the Scriptural analysis offered by Ivy and others like him? instead you focus on some persons that you may (or may not) know. I’m sure we could find some Evangelicals providing false teaching but I don’t think that means Evengelicalism is wrong.
Are you confused into thinking that all of those that think different than MacArthur on this point are as you say?
You sound like a very hurt person.
Rick,
Saroj isn’t alone in his assessment of the charismatic group. I was brought up charismatic and never did agree with what they did. Everyone (even children) “spoke in tongues” and then someone would “interpret”, we had to get visions from those who had the “gift” in order to make a change in one’s life, we had women pastors and elders, they “cast out demons”, tried to heal the sick, danced in the services, etc. I think the only thing we didn’t do was to “slay” people in the spirit, although come to think of it, they probably did via never teaching the Gospel of salvation to anyone new or to the children… the “God has grandchildren” concept. Saroj’s words don’t sound like he’s been hurt just a good description what goes on in churches like this.
Okay, I find I’m in agreement with the reasoning of the article. But, there is a very important statement in the previous post that was slipped in and I don’t know what to make of it. Here it is:
“…That rules out all inspired prophecies, seers, and other forms of new revelation until God speaks again at the return of Christ (cf. Acts 2:16–21; Rev. 11:1–13).”
To me, this is like saying; “The canon is closed until it’s opened”.
This really doesn’t lead one to conclude ‘absolute’ cessationism. The implication is that there is a foot in the door of cessationism because God will speak again according to the scripture references cited. And if OT pattern applies, He generally begins to speak prior to a major prophetic fulfillment (as in Christ’s first appearing) and perhaps at his second.
The question then becomes; Since we may not know if we are in that time immediately prior to a major prophetic fulfillment, is it faithful to Biblical pattern to reject all prophetic utterance because it is widely misused? And how will we recognize true prophetic utterance (from false) when God begins to speak again at (or prior to) the return of Christ?
This article brings much needed balance and accountability in this area of Church life and I’m more inclined to agree with you than with the Charismatics. I just hesitate to go so far as cessationism.
But I wonder if the prophetic work of the Holy Spirit today is to illuminate and “open” scriptural truth in the last days, laying bare the lies of the devil. In the book of Revelation the Lord speaks of making war with the sword of his mouth and promises the “hidden manna” to those who overcome. I tend to think of that as the spirit of prophecy and no human can claim any kind of hubris from it because it is the work of God! Am I wrong on this?
Robert, Saroj, and company,
Humbly, I am afraid the discussion is turing personal with broad characterizations.
Let me stop now a congratulate Robert on his fervor for the Scripture and having it held in high regard! He seems a true brother, so read the rest of this in that light, please.
Robert seems very committed to a Scriptural view. But, no matter where you come down on this issue there are two basic problems in Robert’s thinking that are both foundational and fatal.
First, he said, “The object of people like me in being a “Reformed Charismatic” or “Charismatic Calvinist” is to counteract this sloppiness and disregard for the Word of God, while still holding (what we believe is) a Biblical view of the charismatic gifts of the Spirit.” Whatever Robert’s theological opinions are, they are NOT to me pragmatically determined, as is so often done in Evangelicalism today. To be Calvinistic to prevent sloppiness is simply neither biblical nor logical. The problem with this can be illustrated with these questions: What if there was no sloppiness? Would you then be less inclined to be a Calvinist? I’m Calvinistic, but the reason is I’m convinced most of Calvin’s principles are biblical. I’m NOT a Calvinist. I’m a biblicist who thinks Calvin was right based on Scripture. Deuteronomy 18 says that whatever the true prophet says we are to obey. That means doctrine, too, Robert. Don’t pick doctrine to accomplish anything. Form your doctrine according to your best understanding of the prophetic word–the Scripture. Logically, truth is not determined by what one wishes to accomplish.
The second problem with what Robert said is devastatingly harmful. He said, “Scripture itself then is no mere prophecy – it is the command of the Lord for all prophets, clearly putting prophecy in its proper place, and even more powerfully, putting Scripture into its own exalted category.” The problem is actually what is not said here. Yes, the Scripture is above all other prophecy in that we are to judge the other prophecy by Scripture. However, once another prophecy is allowed and recognized as from God, it necessarily must be equal to Scripture. This is true logically since the source is the Inerrant Author of Truth, God. And it will always works out to be equal or greater than Scripture in practice. In circles where “prophecies” are allowed, they almost always are used by the seers to motivate people to do things the Bible has not addressed or to do things contradictory to the Bible.
Here is the problem for Robert stated another way: Since the Scripture says it is sufficient, no new prophecy can be at all informative to anyone with access to the Bible and can read and understand it. Therefore, if a new prophecy is given by God it is superfluous, unless it is given to a primitive somewhere in the wilderness who is without the Bible. That explains signs given at times on the mission field and it explains the virtual end of the sign gifts today in the Western world. There is nothing to be gained. We are to study to show ourselves approved. God is not a cheap date. He says we are to seek Him. We can get prophecy any time we like by diligent study of the Prophetic Word Written.
So open you Bible, get a cup of coffee, and get cracking!
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
If God has given us the Scripture and we don’t study it daily, WHY would He stoop to give us another prophecy?
And why should I believe you when you say you want a prophecy when you fail to study then one on your shelf?
Just thinking,
Phil Perkins.
Isn’t prophecy supposed to continue until the perfect comes?
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
I believe that the perfect will when we see His face. Rev. 22:4 This is still in the future. To say that prophecy has ceased because the canon of the Bible is closed is basically the same as saying the perfect has already come in the past when scripture was completed and the canon was closed. This seems to be a self contradictory position for someone who believes that the perfect has not come yet (future).
If you believe that the perfect hasn’t come yet then you also should also believe that prophecy hasn’t ceased yet. To be consistent you need to either believe that the perfect has come and prophecy has ceased, or that the perfect hasn’t come yet and prophecy hasn’t ceased yet. What isn’t acceptable, being self contradictory, is to believe that the perfect is still to come in the future but that prophecy ceased in the past. These two events should occur simultaneously according to scripture. Believe one way or the other and then stick with it.
Yours in Christ,
Riley
Is NT prophecy equal the scripture and should all legitimate prophecy be added to the Bible?
First of all, is NT prophecy equal to scripture? (Old Testament prophecy was judged a little bit differently)
The Bible is truth. It doesn’t just contain the Word of God; it IS the Word of God.
The Bible says, “The law of the LORD is perfect…” Ps. 19:7
The Bible says, “we prophesy in part.” (incomplete and imperfect – AMP) I Cor. 13:9
Are you going to insert partial or incomplete prophesy into a perfect Bible? Incomplete or partial prophecy does not automatically equal scripture. There is no need to add incomplete and partial prophesy to a true and perfect Bible. Those prophecies that are included in the Bible were raised up to the level of completeness and perfection that is required for the Bible.
Are all NT prophecies included in the text of the Bible?
Consider these scriptures:
Act 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
This scripture is referring to Holy Ghost inspired predictive prophecies concerning Paul. These prophecies were being given in every city.
(By the way, since this scripture and those below refer to legitimate prophecies at a time after Paul wrote I Cor., it is not possible historically that Paul was redefining prophecy to mean preaching when he wrote I Cor. 14.)
But what did these prophecies actually say? We don’t know because only a little piece or summery of what they said is included in the text of the scripture. The Bible was still being written at this time and yet the whole text of these prophecies is not included.
Act 21:4 And finding disciples we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.
Here again legitimate prophecies are mentioned but not a word of what they actually said is included in the Bible. We only get a report of the gist of what was said. Also notice that the speakers of these prophecies are not referred to as prophets. They are simply called disciples. This sounds like the gift of prophecy given to believers.
Act 21:9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
And what did these four daughters prophecy? Again, we don’t know because their prophecies are not included in the Bible.
So here we have three scriptural witnesses that legitimate prophecies do not have to be added to the text of the scriptures. If this was true even when the Bible was being written, how much more would it be true when the canon is closed and the Bible is not being written any more?
I don’t remember the references right now but you can show the same thing in the Old Testament also. There are prophecies referred to in the OT that were not included in the text of the scriptures.
There is no text in the Bible that says that all prophecies must be added to the Bible. That is not a scriptural statement. It’s just a logical concoction based on one’s theology rather than scripture.
So prophecy does not necessarily equal scripture and they don’t have to be included in the Bible.
Riley,
If the Scriptures are indeed sufficient for all matters of faith and practice leaving us adequate and equipped for every good work, then what is the purpose of “new prophecy.” If the Scriptures are adequate and authoritative, then why new prophecies…
Some might argue, “well, God might have left something out…’I’ need to know… (which impeached the credibility of verses like 2 Tim. 3:16-17–not to mention 1 Cor. 10:13). So, what is the purpose of new prophecy? Without revisiting the discussion of the “perfect”—if the Scriptures are sufficient, God-breathed, and authoritative as they, themselves (the Holy Spirit) claims they are, then why new and on-going prophecies?
Perhaps its the ‘I’ factor… “I need to know this or that…” God’s sovereign will is a mystery to us but wisdom and guidance for daily living are found in the Scriptures (cf Due. 29:29). So, why do “i” need special knowledge, why would I want it?
Can God not get the job done without Keith or Riley? I’m sure He can.
So, if we have a more sure prophetic word 2 Peter 1:19… is it not sufficient?
And if the apocalyptic epistle (epistole) of Revelation says the book (biblion) is closed only once… and “there won’t be a Deut. to John’s Exodus” (metaphorically speaking) then once is enough. We should be loathe to add revelation. I know some have argued that these are not in the same class as Scripture (I believed they employed the term “superfluous” in earlier posts) but if they are indeed superfluous, then why?
Keith Crosby
Green Bay, Wisconsin
Robert and Riley,
Thanks for your comments.
From some of your ealier comments, you both have indicated (or at least seemed to imply) that there are still apostles in the church today.
Even if we allow for a dual view of prophecy (in which the NT apostles are equal to OT prophets, and NT prophets are somehow less … as Grudem argues), I don’t know you can ultimately defend a completed canon.
If apostolic authorship or oversight is a primary condition for canonicity, then how can the charismatic dogmatically claim that the canon is closed? Grudem solves this problem by agreeing that the office of apostle has ceased.
But I am curious how you would respond, since (if I’m reading you right) you believe the apostolic office is still operative.
Thanks,
NB
Phil,
I was wondering if you could expand on this thought:
“Therefore, if a new prophecy is given by God it is superfluous, unless it is given to a primitive somewhere in the wilderness who is without the Bible. That explains signs given at times on the mission field and it explains the virtual end of the sign gifts today in the Western world.”
A ways back in this series (the “A Couple Key Questions” article to be specific), I had asked a question along these lines. I guess the essence of my question is could the ceasing of the miraculous gifts be related to the development of the local church within a people group as opposed to the overall development of the universal church? In other words for the West, the foundation is built and the gifts have essentially ceased, but in places where the church is not yet established would the gifts be in operation?
I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Denis,
You’re getting into an area there that I can only speculate. My GUESS is that God SEEMS to give signs in areas where the gospel is introduced. Then it SEEMS they die off. As to the superfluity of a prophecy today in a country where Bibles almost outnumber people, this has to be true. If God has said all that needs to be said–sufficiency of Scriptures–then a true prophecy will only be a repeat. Beyond this, you’re over my bald head. What is the “perfect?” Wow!
The stand I have taken is to neither prohibit tongues and prophecy, nor to encourage them. Only apply the biblical tests for both. The prophet had better be infallible and the tongues-speakers only get a couple instances per service and it has to be an interprettable language with an interpretter.
The effect of that stand is that I’m never disobedient to Scripture, whether or not my view on “the perfect” is correct. All the sign-gift enthusiasts go away where they can continue in their disobedience and no one can say I have prohibited or quenched the Spirit. We just obey what the Spirit has said to do and not do in Scripture.
I’m not guru on this stuff. In this country we have commentaries, teachers, and Bibles galore. We just need to use them. It seems disingenuous to pray for a prophet or prophecy and then turn on the television.
Pretty sure I didn’t answer your question, but that’s all I’ve got.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
It seems to me from the Scriptures that the prophecy of God always comes true. His prophets have always been faulty, but His prophecy is always validated.
In the Old Testament, even though “the perfect” had not yet come, the prophecies God gave always came true. Though there is a consistent pattern of imperfect prophets, there is no pattern of imperfect prophesying, where the prophet gets it wrong because he/she didn’t hear/understand/receive it right. If it does not come to pass just as the “prophet” says, then it simply cannot have come from God. Am I right in this assumption?
Humbly,
derek
I don’t believe the gift of prophecy is on the same level of authority as the Scripture itself. I believe Robert made that clear. I would also like to present an example out of Acts 21:4: “After looking up the disciples, we stayed there seven days; and they kept telling Paul THROUGH THE SPIRIT NOT to set foot in Jerusalem.”
Now this is interesting because it’s obvious throughout the rest of the narrative that Paul disregarded this warning and went to Jerusalem. If Paul had considered the gift of prophecy to be on the same level of authority as the Holy Scripture wouldn’t he have totally yielded to the Spirit’s admonition?
I believe the answer lies in the fact that though the gift of prophecy is inspired by the Holy Spirit to a degree, it is nevertheless communicated through fallible creatures in fallible human words. In otherwords, though it has inspiration, it does bear Scriptural authority. Make sense?
On the subjective side of the arguement, I would like to pose a question to all my cessationist brethren: If the gift of prophecy has indeed ceased, how do you explain it when men who are sincere Christians and bear the fruit to prove it prophecy through the Spirit and it happens just like they said? I know for a fact that this is occurring, I have seen it happen and you can be sure that the Lord Jesus Christ gets all the glory. Are these people heretics? Should we cast them off as phonies even though they are just as zealous and hungry for God as every cessationist who says these guys don’t exist? I don’t intend to sound satirical, so I apologize in advance if I do. It just makes sense to me that if the Bible says it and it actually occurs in the same way as the Scripture teaches we can feel safe with the practice as long as it is subjected to the established canon. What say you?
CORRECTION: I fumbled up and said: “Though it (prophecy) has inspiration, it does bear scriptural authority.”
I apologize, I intended to say: “Though it has inspiration, it DOES NOT bear scriptural authority.”
Again, sorry for the mistake.
Denis,
You bring up a good issue in this whole discussion. Does God work differently in other parts of the world where the Gospel is newly introduced?
I would say that God may do that, but I would suggest that whatever He does will not contradict what He has already revealed in His Word.
That being said, as a Pastor I hear all kinds of anecdotal stories, some from people I trust about some miraculous thing God is doing in another nation. They’re always interesting stories that might be true, but I have no way of verifying it, nor can the reporter verify the account. So, I never use such stories as sermon illustrations! Instead, as Peter suggests, I rely on the “sure word” I have in Scripture as my guide.
That leads to another issue regarding whether or not the miracle sign gifts have ceased. My personal view at this time is that the gifts of miracles, healings and tongues have ceased because they were primarily apostolic sign gifts (i.e., 2 Cor. 12:12; Heb. 2:4) for the purpose of authenticating apostolic authority.
Phil,
I agree with your approach to this. Since there is disagreement among good theologians about the whole issue, I hold to the principles Paul lays down in I Cor. 14:26ff concerning the use of tongues and prophecy in the assembly. I also would require that the any manifestation of tongues be a manifestation of a legitimate language spoken on the earth today, and it should be also interpreted in like manner. So far, I’ve never had a manifestation of either of these gifts in such a regulated context.
For His Glory,
Steve Lamm
Derek,
You’re exactly right. The Law of Moses required that anyone who claimed to be a prophet must not only have a perfect record for accuracy, but also never lead the people astray from God’s revealed Word (Deut. 13:1-5; Deut. 18:20-22). They were to put such false prophets to death!
Dear CBX,
You pose a good question. I personally have not decided whether or not the Scriptures teach that the gift of prophecy has ceased.
That being said, I also know good people who claim to know prophets. I have been in several meetings where such prophets spoke. Most of the time, they did not reveal anything new to me that was not already in the Scripture. They usually adapted what Scripture already taught, put it into their own words (sometimes sounding like KJV English!) and people though that qualified as prophecy. Sometimes what was said in these meetings was a clear contradiction of Scripture! Yet, I have no doubt that most of these people were sincere.
The issue is this: what is the NT gift of prophecy that Paul mentions in I Cor. 12-14, and how does it manifest itself? Second, how much attention should we pay to what a modern prophet says since, as you point out, Paul felt no obligation to obey the cautions given to him by the men who warned him not to go to Jerusalem (Acts 21:4)?
When Peter said (1 Peter 4:11)”If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God…” I always kinda though he meant when speaking the already-revealed word, scripture, speak it as it were from God because it is. The angel in Revelation said “the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”. Proclaiming the word boldly, never wavering, seems it would be enough to “prepare the church” as todays “prophets” claim to be doing.
Phil (to respond to your first comment),
First, thanks for taking the debate off the personal route and going back to Scripture. I, too, consider you a true brother in the Lord.
I think you misunderstood my statement about why I am a Reformed Charismatic. It is not simply for pragmatic reasons – that others were sloppy with the Bible and since that doesn’t work, now I want to be skilled in my handling of it. My point is that being sloppy with the Bible is wrong and I want to do what is right in accurately handling the Word of God.
Whether others are sloppy or not, my clear aim in being a Reformed Charismatic is to have my theology completely shaped by the Word of God, which is the same aim as you or any other devoted Christian. Furthermore, even if devotion to the Word of God were a pragmatic decision, it is still the right one.
Second, your point about prophecy belies a misunderstanding of my (and the general charismatic) view of the gift of prophecy. You must understand, I am asking you to change your paradigm for looking at prophecy’s relation to Scripture. Even if a prophecy were to be accepted as true, the Scripture is still higher. I know this doesn’t make total sense, but it seems to be a clear teaching of Scripture.
My suggestion is that if Scripture is held in its proper place and all prophecy is judged vigorously by focused study on the Word of God, then I have nothing left to fear! The Bible will not be reinterpreted, and the Christian will not be led down a false path.
To reject this is to reject plain Bible teaching about the gift of prophecy. 1 Cor 14:3,4 gives excellent purposes for prophecy. 1 Tim 1:18,19 is another passage that powerfully demonstrates the wonderful good that can come to a Christian who receives genuine prophecy.
How would an inerrant word from God be “devastatingly harmful”? To me, this is the very problem with the cessationist position. 1 Thes 5:19-21 explicitly says, “do not despise prophecies”. Yet this seems to be exactly what cessationists do when they somehow pit the Bible against prophecy.
If prophecy is for today, then it is just as the Bible says it is: the greatest gift to the church. If it is not for today then I still ask you to find a proper argument to demonstrate as much.
Thanks for the interaction,
Robert
CBX,
I have trouble juxtaposing the balance of Scripture with the passage in Acts 21 in the way that you discussed. It is not explicit why the Spirit encouraged those men to entreat Paul so, but it is clear that the intended purpose for Paul was not to heed their warning. God has a history of using mankind and circumstances to test and direct His people.
I am inclined to assume a view in keeping with the entirety of Scripture (God is at work moving men to do just as He wishes) rather than supposing a new/alternative view (man is fouling up God’s clear revelation). I do not think there is another example of such in Scripture. Those fouling God’s clear message are always called false prophets.
Would God use a fallible man to carry His message? Yes.
Would God use a fallible message, when we have His infallible Word? I don’t think so.
One final qquestion: If one claiming to speak from God “gets it right,” that does not necessarily prove it is from God unless one “always” gets it right. If, however one prophesies falsely just once, doesn’t this disqualify a person’s ministry?
To His Glory,
derek
Steve Lamm,
Cool. Im right about something. This approach works for someone else, too.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
CBX said:
“If Paul had considered the gift of prophecy to be on the same level of authority as the Holy Scripture wouldn’t he have totally yielded to the Spirit’s admonition?
I believe the answer lies in the fact that though the gift of prophecy is inspired by the Holy Spirit to a degree, it is nevertheless communicated through fallible creatures in fallible human words. In otherwords, though it has inspiration, it does [not] bear Scriptural authority. Make sense?”
I recently read this verse and was quite puzzled, but there are a couple of options here:
1) They were not prophesying, but speaking out of love – the text doesn’t say they were prophesying. (this is my choice)
2) The Holy Spirit is contradicting itself (agree that this is not the case)
3) Paul is blatantly not listening to the Holy Spirit (prb not this one either).
4) The Holy Spirit is telling the Christians “Let Paul Go to Jerusalem even though He will die” and although they perceive it perfectly like OT prophets, out of love plead with Paul not to go (possible, but not likely).
5) The Holy Spirit is unable to communicate with the Christians clearly and they mess up the transmission of a “Yes, let him go to Jerusalem” to a “No, don’t let him go.” (Your choice?)
How could it be that there is prophecy on the level of Agabus with such striking force, and than on the other side you have this really low level, non-powerful, not useful, weak prophecy where the prophets can’t get “Let him go to Jerusalem” right? I think that’s my question for you CBX (not trying to be facetious here , sorry if it came off that way). I think if the message the Holy Spirit was trying to send was a little more difficult like explaining calculus or eschatology and they just happened to have not said it clearly than I would see some credit in your view. However, if these prophets and prophets now a days, can’t get a very simple message of “Let him go” right, than why trust it for for difficult messages and why even have it at all. I mean, would you listen to a prophet who couldn’t get the simple message of “go” or “don’t go” right?
2) People who have experienced prophesy and the gifts. I’m still thinking b/c I also know trustworthy and genuine people who have experienced AMAZING things. But until I can actually see those things or have them verified in some way I know there can be multiple explanations. I admit though, it is very puzzling in my mind to have some seriously genuine Christians with above average experiences.
Robert Ivy,
Thanks for the reassurance, and I am impressed with your efforts to bring your corner of the church into line with Scripture. I mean that with all my heart, Brother. That’s what it’s all about–godly obedience.
As to the prophecy thing, yes, the Scripture is the test of any prophecy that concerns doctrine or history of biblical times. If the two contradict, the Scripture is true, the other a lie. However, if one could prove a particular prophecy true, then it is as true as Scripture. Either it is true or not. There is no “truer.” Even if we say that the Scripture is higher what does that mean since both are true and both came from God? What do you do differently in relation to the two?
God bless you and yours,
Phil Perkins.
Robert,
I just thought of a good illustration: If two maps written by the same guy say the same thing, which map is higher and why?
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
Nate,
Thanks for not giving up on us crazy guys
Really the main reason I engage in this debate is because by “testing” I want to be “transformed by the renewal of [my] mind” (Rom 12:2).
Although I cannot say for certain that there are apostles in the church today, I will say that there can be apostles in the church today (in fact I would even say there ought to be apostles in the church today but maybe that should wait for a later discussion).
My only question to you is what makes you think that “apostolic authorship or oversight is a primary condition for canonicity”?
Perhaps I will eat my words later and am missing something obvious (I tend to do that, and maybe Riley can then save me), but it seems to me that there are several books in the Bible that are not written by apostles, nor do they claim to have apostolic oversight (Luke, Acts, Hebrews, James, Jude).
Again, I think it is a common mistake among cessationists (and evangelicals at large) to equate apostleship with Scripture-writing. It is because the miraculous gifts are never taught in churches that we have such mistaken ideas and have misplaced fears in the gift of prophecy and other forms of divine revelation.
We need to recover the Biblical concept that the gifts and offices (all of them) are here to help the church, not lead to its destruction. And apostleship, listed first in both 1 Cor 12:28 and Eph 4:11, is probably the greatest office established for the building of the church. This office is distinct from writing Scripture.
Robert
Robert Ivy,
Man, I hate to do three in a row, but I just reread your last comment. Like you, I’m not comfortable with the cessationist position. I cannot give a “proper argument to demonstrate” that prophecy is not for today. It scares me to possibly contradict the Spirit, so I never forbid tongues-speaking or prophecy without good reason. Please read my answer to Denis above and you will see my thinking on how to conduct oneself. Or read Steve Lamm. He’s come to the same conclusions. Also, prophecy is God’s best gift for us today–and the Bible is God’s prophecy written.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
Phil,
Thanks for whittling down the words so we can get to the heart of the issue.
I think your description of genuine prophecy as being “as true as Scripture” is accurate.
What do you do differently in relation to the two? Essentially, I would say nothing. (hear me out)
Paul instructs Timothy in 1 Tim 1:18 to “wage the good warfare” by a prophecy he received (which the Bible never records). I think this is instructive in two ways. First, it indicates that the role of prophecy is more limited in scope than the role of the Bible (it’s for a specific person, group, nation, etc. – here you can easily relate it to your map analogy). But it also indicates that while we are certainly to “wage the good warfare” by Scripture (need I reference examples?) we are also to wage the good warfare by prophecy.
Another example of the overlapping role of Scripture and prophecy is 1 Cor 14:3. Paul writes, “the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation”. Again, I’m sure we would all agree that Scripture builds us up, encourages and consoles us, but nevertheless prophecy is to do the same.
Now before you revert to the old argument – see! you are saying that Scripture is not sufficient! – realize 2 things.
(1) This does not mean that Scripture is insufficient. As I have said before, we do not need prophecy. Compare it to eating a Thanksgiving feast then having a cookie for dessert. Are both designed to sustain you? Yes. After eating a thanksgiving feast, do you need a cookie to survive or thrive? No. Nevertheless, as children, we are to earnestly look for those sweets we get, even after the finest of feasts (1 Cor 14:1). It is nothing more than the difference between “need” and “want”. While we “want” prophecy, we absolutely “need” Scripture.
(2) My reasons for believing in the overlapping purpose of prophecy and Scripture come from Scripture, they are not just personal assertions and ideas, and I am not using any abstract interpretation method. So if you want to take up how prophecy insinuates that the Bible is not enough, take it up with Scripture first then give it to me.
I look forward to hearing your reaction and continuing the discussion.
Robert
Keith,
I know your comment was addressed to Riley, but if I may, I think I can answer your query (and Riley can add as he likes). First, to understand my perspective on the purpose of prophecy, you can see my most recent comment above.
I greatly respect your love for the Word of God and your desire to hold it up as all-sufficient. I think this perspective is the great legacy of cessationism, and it has brought forth many diamonds from the incomparably deep mine of God’s Word.
With that being said, I do not see why the mining must stop when we discover that there are also bits of gold closer to the surface all over the land. As Christians we are to be unquenchably thirsty for God and his Word (Matt 22:37, Ps 63, Is 55:1-3, Ps 42:1-2).
You are right when you say that we have all the diamonds we could ever imagine, but the desire for prophecy does not (should not) come from a sense that the diamonds we have don’t meet our needs, nor from an adulterated desire to see some flourishing in my life. It comes only from a desire to know God more deeply, (Eph 1:17) to bring my life into greater accord with the purposes of God, (1 Tim 1:18) and to build up my brothers and sisters in Christ (1 Cor 14:3).
Again, can I know God deeply, bring my life into accord with his purposes, and build up the church by Scripture alone? Absolutely! But am I also commanded to yearn for more? Absolutely! (1 Cor 14:1).
I hope this helps.
Robert
Robert,
Thank you for your response.
(1) Apostolic origin is generally recognized of one of four primary criteria for canonicity, along with (2) Universal Acceptance, (3) Liturgical Use, and (4) Consistency of Message. As the Wikipedia article on the “biblical canon” states: “The basic factor for recognizing a book’s canonicity for the New Testament was divine inspiration, and the chief test for this was apostolicity. The term apostolic as used for the test of canonicity does not necessarily mean apostolic authorship or derivation, but rather apostolic authority.”
It is usually assumed that books like Luke and Acts were written under the apostolic oversight of the Apostle Paul. James, on the other hand, was regarded as an apostle (Gal. 1:19; Acts 15:13). Perhaps Jude, as the Lord’s half-brother, was as well.
In any case, I really don’t think you can separate canonicity from apostleship. Most continuationists would agree on that point. One of the strongest arguments (perhaps the strongest) for the completion of the canon is the cessation of the apostolic office. Since we no longer have any apostles today (and hence no apostolic authority), it is not possible for new books of the Bible to be written.
But if there are still apostles today, and if the apostles are equivalent to OT prophets (as Grudem and other continuationists assert that they are), then is there really any compelling reason for the canon to be closed?
You are in dogmatic agreement that the canon is closed. Yet you are also open to the possibility that there are still apostles in the church today (in the same sense as the apostle Paul). If that is true, then why should we consider the canon to be closed? Wouldn’t it be possible for someone (either a modern-day apostle or someone under his authoritative oversight) to write another book of Scripture?
It’s hard for me to see how your position on modern-day apostleship can, at the same time, espouse a closed canon.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
- NB
Robert,
So I get a bit wordy, huh? You should hear my wife! (I mean she complains, too.)
If it’s not needed and Scripture is sufficient, why seek it? And your food analogy doesn’t work. When I add a cookie, I really add something. When I add a repetition to knowledge I already have, I add nothing. It’s only a repetition.
In I Cor. 14:1, we are seeing folks without the benefit of all of Scripture, so naturally new prophecy may be needed. And it should be noted that all the “you”’s are plural. That is not a command to an individual, but to a church.
I speak prophecy when I have done my homework and teach the Scripture. It consoles, reproves, and convicts. Did you read my response to Denis? I’m not a cessationist.
Off subject–verse 24 is a call to the use of the law in evangelism is it not? Secondarily, that is.
In short, Robert, I don’t believe we are individually to seek gifts. Instead, we are to busy ourselves doing God’s work. Seeking a gift individually is me-centered. Getting to work in the kingdom is God-centered.
Also, prophecy does not work like it’s practiced today. In the olden days, God would speak directly and objectively to the prophet. It was not an ecstatic performance of any sort. The prophet had been spoken to by God. It was not a feeling, but a real verbal (written or oral) communication by God to the prophet. (Of course, there were exceptions when the prophecy was a vision. Then the vision was rendered in words to the folks.) The prophet walked or got on his donkey or whatever and went to tell the folks the message. Read any of the intros to any of the major or minor prophets. (Except Jonah.) If you apply these standards and the Deuteronomy infallibility standard, you will find that few “prophecies” stand up. They are either outright bunk or based on a feeling.
Blue Suede was hooked on a feeling, too. (If you go to youtube, David Hasselhoff does that song, but don’t go there before you eat.)
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
[...] Original post by Comments for Pulpit Magazine and software by Elliott Back Posted 09 Feb, 2007 | Categories: Uncategorized [...]
Forgive me if I am being too simplistic here. But can anyone say for sure with the biblical confidence that the Charismatics are doomed to hell? If not is it possible that they have simply erred in their interpretation of the Scriptures thus inclusion of “nonessentials”? In which case I am tempted to say to those who have never erred in their interpretation please cast the first criticism.
The charismatic gifts of the Spirit still continue on to this day. The cessationist position has no firm biblical support.
Sarah – I share your experiences. My comments weren’t intended to say these things don’t happen. They were only to counter the broad, ugly statements made by Saroj.
I have had some “unbiblical” experiences in non-Charismatic churches but that doesn’t mean the non-Charismatic position is wrong. We need to look at Scripture on this matter.
I think Nate has offered some really excellent analysis and has done so in a very fair way. AND – I’ve been very impressed with the quality of the comments overall. This has been one of the few series on this topic where both sides act like what one would expect from Christians.
Robert said:
Perhaps I will eat my words later and am missing something obvious (I tend to do that, and maybe Riley can then save me),
Riley:
Yeah right! I can’t save anybody.
You might check with Jesus though.
Seriouly, I’ll continue to post as I can find time. I have quite a bit to post about apostles but it still needs some work. Maybe tomorrow.
Yours in Christ,
Riley
Just a thought about the prophecies given to Paul.
Many times in the Old Testament the prophets would give a true warning from God, but that didn’t guarantee that people would always heed the warning. Jeremiah warned the people not to resist the Babylonians but did they heed the warning? No, and they paid the price for it. Their minds were made up. They claimed to be willing to hear and obey the prophecy, but in fact when they heard it they rebelled and did what they had already made up their minds to do. The result was judgment.
I think Paul had his mind made up to go to Jerusalem and nothing was going to sway him. He himself said, “But none of these things (prophetic warnings of danger) move me” Act 20:24
I’m not dogmatic about this because he also said, “I go bound in the spirit”, and I’m not sure what exactly that means.
I believe the prophecies were a true warning from God. Paul went anyway and got beat up, almost killed, and God had to deliver him. He did make it to Rome finally.
If he had heeded the warning could there have been an easier way for him to make it to Rome? Perhaps, but it’s a bit speculative.
I do think it’s important to note, as I’ve already posted above, that the exact text of these prophecies was not recorded in the Bible. This fact is extremely contradictory to the idea that all prophecies are equal to scripture and should be added to the Bible. The Bible itself shows here that such an idea is not true. We don’t even have to speculate about it. The idea that all prophecies are equal to scripture and should be added to the Bible should simply collapse in the face of such direct Biblical contradiction.
Your in Christ,
Riley
Nate,
Thanks for your response, I’m really enjoying this debate and am at least finding it edifying for myself. I hope it is for others. I continue to be humbled by your knowledge of the Word and hope that I am providing responses that do your claims justice.
First, I tremble at the thought of the canon being open or of any apostle claiming to speak with infallibility. Therefore I now progress very fearfully before God. Again, if anyone can show that there is a contradiction between modern-day apostles and closed Canon, then I will certainly drop any doctrine of modern-day apostles.
My first reaction is, what’s the problem? Obviously there are 4 criteria, apostolic authority is only one. Clearly anything written today will in no way satisfy the other three conditions. (It can’t satisfy the fourth because Scripture makes clear that it cannot be added to, therefore it wouldn’t be consistent.)
[Insert hours of thought and a dozen responses typed and deleted.]
I guess I would just need further explication to really analyze the claim you are making about the connection between apostleship and Scripture. I am sorry that I do not understand the historical/external arguments for the closing of the canon – this whole realm strikes me as a bit odd. After all when is man ever given the authority to declare that something is “the Word of God” except when God himself testifies that it is so?
With that in mind, my “compelling” reasons for the closing of Canon have always been (1) the texts of Scripture that declare it so, and (2) a basic understanding of Scripture as the “rule, standard, or measuring rod”, as MacArthur puts it, combined with a firm belief in the sovereignty of God – that he would not allow so many millions of believers to lack the basic standard for our faith. To me, that is unthinkable, and even to think that another book could be added today seems to imply that we lack a good measure for our faith, which, again, I cannot accept without totally compromising all I believe (which again, the Bible forbids).
To answer your other question: No, even a modern day apostle could not write another book of Scripture. Again, the way I can simultaneously hold modern-day apostleship and closed canon is by saying that writing Scripture is a task in and of itself, not a subtask of apostleship. The reason any apostle wrote Scripture is not because, “he was an apostle” but because, “God inspired him to write Scripture”. The Bible seems to make it clear that apostleship is merely (a very large merely) a church office, listed alongside the more familiar offices of teacher, pastor, and evangelist. (1 Cor 12:28, 29, Eph 4:11, 2 Tim 1:11). Compare this to the position of Scripture-writer, which is never even glanced upon (I believe because it is such sacred ground and Scripture is supposed to be manifestly the Word of God, not requiring teaching to tell the inspiree when his revelation is Scripture).
I’m sorry if I did not exactly respond to what you are getting at. I’m afraid that it’s also hard for me to see how you can so closely associate apostleship with the Canon. Please do continue to respond, however, this is clearly a crucial issue.
Robert
Oh man! I’ve been away from the Pulpit Blog for a LONG while! When did we get onto the whole cessationist thing? Where’s Simon when you need him? I bet he’d have some awesome stuff to suggest!
But seriously, there’s so many things being said here I don’t know where to jump in. I’ll throw out a simple thought:
Prophets in the NT and OT on behalf of God, delivering his words.
When those words were written down (inscripturated), they became scripture. The didn’t magically gain any more or less authority.
[To suggest that a person is funtioning as a prophet does not necessitate that one needs to add said prophecies to the Bible, sure. There are instances of prophecy that were NOT insciripturated but were still authoritative. (For example, everything that Christ said was the very words of God, yet we don't have his comprehensive life-script in the Bible)]
That’s the clincher though. Modern prophecy MUST be on EQUAL authority and truth with the Bible. If a prophet is speaking on behalf of God, he speaks with God’s authority resting on him; absolute and total authority. Beyond that, the same God that wrote the scripture (the way, the truth and the light) is speaking through that prophets very mouth.
To suggest that a person can actually prophesy and NOT speak with total, 100% authority and 100% truth is to suggest that a person can speak for God but either:
a. God speaks outside of his own character (i.e. God’s speaking through the prophet but he’s NOT speaking with total authority or perfect knowledge)
b. The prophet is speaking for God but is somehow “operating in the flesh” and any error is due to the interjection of his own imagination/”flesh” at that moment (I encounter this argument ALWAYS in charismatic circles).
****************************
I’d suggest that neither are possible for if (a) is true then God operates outside his own character (theological impossibility) and if (b) is true then God’s desire to communicate a message is overpowered by the inability of his messenger (God’s a sissy).
****************************
It’s not a question of adding to the Bible. It’s a question of authority and truth. If God IS speaking through someone, they must speak with total authority and every word they say MUST be totally and absolutely true.
I’m not opposed to there being prophets…I just want REAL prophets. Every single “prophet” I’ve ever met hasn’t even been remotely close. They didn’t even meet the simple Deuteronomy 13 test, let alone follow other parts of the biblical model and prescriptions (And before that, I’m biblically convinced of the cessationist position too, which I cannot escape.)
********************
Also, heresay and third hand information doesn’t do any good. Talk about “gifts” being poured out on the mission field is just that…’talk’. It wouldn’t matter if there were prophets running knee deep in Shanghai; doctrine is built on the teaching of scripture, not on someone’s supposed understanding of what’s occuring in other countries.
Okay okay…that was two thoughts, or possibly more. Oops!
I meant to say:
“Prophets in the NT and OT on behalf of God, delivering his words.”
I should have proof read that…DANG!
Phil,
No, it’s not that you get wordy, it’s just that on issues such as this clear articulation is so crucial, it really requires this going back and forth to completely understand one another’s positions. For the sake of brevity, I’ll put your words in italics and my response below it.
If it’s not needed and Scripture is sufficient, why seek it?
Because I am commanded to in 1 Corinthians 14:1 (as part of a corporate body). Also see my second to last post addressed to Keith.
Your food analogy doesn’t work. When I add a cookie, I really add something. When I add repetition to knowledge I already have, I add nothing. It’s only repetition.
I am not really sure of what point you are trying to make. If you are trying to make the point that prophecy adds to Scripture, then please go back and read the very first comment. Otherwise, I need some help here to see what you are saying.
In I Cor. 14:1, we are seeing folks without the benefit of all of Scripture, so naturally new prophecy may be needed.
It sounds to me like you are saying that prophecy was only given as long as Scripture was incomplete. It also sounds like you are saying that prophecy is identical to Scripture. If so, please demonstrate this from Scripture.
I speak prophecy when I have done my homework and teach the Scripture. It consoles, reproves, and convicts.
This is not the Biblical view of prophecy. 2 Peter 1:21 says, “For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”
In short, Robert, I don’t believe we are individually to seek gifts. Instead, we are to busy ourselves doing God’s work.
Very well, although I would like to see Scripture supporting your view. I believe that God’s work cannot be performed without the gifts (1 Pet 4:10).
Seeking a gift individually is me-centered.
I seek prophecy to speak, “to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.” (1 Cor 14:3) I seek the gift of healing for the obvious reason of being able to heal to sickness, disability, and emotional brokenness I see all around me. I seek words of knowledge and words of wisdom to uncover hidden things that obstruct the growth of others in the Lord, and I seek tongues to build myself up only that I may in turn edify others. If this seeking is not done in love, may it perish.
Getting to work in the kingdom is God-centered.
Working for the kingdom under your own power will inevitably be man-centered. It is only by waiting on the Lord and allowing him to work through you that anything will ultimately be accomplished for his kingdom.
Your paragraph on prophecy.
If prophecy today does match up to the Biblical standard then it is not prophecy. Saying things based on impressions or feelings does not, in my mind, match the reality of Biblical prophecy. Rather than allow our experience to tell us that prophecy is not for today we should allow the Word of God to shape us, help us to accurately understand prophecy, and do it for the building up of the church.
Again, I appreciate your heart for the Lord and your desire to get on and do the work of the kingdom, but the very thing I am presenting is the Biblical way to do so. Please just continue to test your method in light of God’s Word – that’s really the most that any of us can do.
With that being said, I’m sorry I didn’t practice what I preach in this comment and left several statements without supporting Scripture. It’s just extremely late and I’m really tired so I tried to do this quickly. If you disagree with any of my statements then please let me know and I will do my best to find the appropriate supporting text.
Robert
Robert
I have been following your post since this discussion began and I aggree with your argument 100%, untill you had to bring in the idea of possible Apostolic today. I believe the New Testament is clear that the office of Apostle has ceased today. 2 Reasons that just come to mind.
#1 – Apostles had to be people who had physically walked and were taught by Christ. This would rest on the meaning of the word used to describe such people. Apostolos – “One who is sent out, or a messenger sent out with orders.” Strongs
#2 – Paul was considered to be the last of all the Apostles. Read 1Corinthians 15:3-9, especially verses 8&9.
But with all that said, it still doesn’t undermine the basis of your argument concerning the sign gifts for today, of which are subservient to Apostolic Scripture.
In Christ…
Robert Ivy,
We’re getting into tit-for-tat territory here and at times I believe you are forcing things into my mouth I have explicitly denied, cessationism and doing the work of God in the flesh to be specific.
To paraphrase my first Greek teacher, your emPHAsis in on the wrong sylLAble. The gifts, instead of furthering the kingdom. Abilities, not obedience.
No, you’re NOT told in Scripture to seek a specific gift. In fact, that’s your big problem. You misunderstand 14:1 “You (plural) please pursue love, but you (plural) please be zealous for the spirituals (gifts), but especially that you (plural) prophecy.” Two things are important here.
First, is the plural. I know I did a clumsy translation, but I did it so that you can see both the imperatives (“please”) and the plurals. The plurals, Robert, only give you two interpretive options. It is an order either for all the individuals addressed to individually pursue these gifts, or for the goup to corporately pursue these gifts.
Second, since you are given two options, you need to go the context. In 12:11 we read (NASB), “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one INDIVIDUALLY just as HE WILLS.” And again, in 12:7 we read, “But to each ONE is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.” (Emphasis added.) In between these two verses, the Spirit speaks directly to the same point. “For to the ONE is given…and to ANOTHER…to ANOTHER.. and to ANOTHER…and to ANOTHER…and to ANOTHER…and to ANOTHER…and to ANOTHER…and to ANOTHER…” See a pattern here?
The Spirit says explicitly here that HE assigns the gifts to individuals, according to His will, not yours or mine. Thus, your two options are cut to only the second. Individuals are not to pick a gift and go after it. That is expressly denied here, Robert. Verse 10 lists specifically the gift of prophecy as one of the gifts the Spirit chooses to give to the individuals He chooses. It’s not up to you. It’s not up to me.
Thus, the church at Corinth was commissioned by Paul in 14:1 to go after the gifts. And who had the gifts? The individuals to whom they were given by the sovereign choice of the Spirit as previously laid for us in chapter 12.
This is clear, Robert. You must decide to obey the Scripture or not. You cannot obey 14:1 and ignore 12:7-11. You don’t get to pick passages.
In addition, (I have addressed this already in a different manner.) your seeking gifts to serve primarily your fellow Christian is not biblical. This may seem a bit academic, but hear me out and this will be my last word for you. The Shama says, “Listen, Israel! Yahweh our God, Yahweh is One. And you (singular) shall love Yahweh your (singular) God with all your(singular) heart, and with all your (singular) soul, and with all your (singular) uttermost.” (The singular here is a Hebrew way of referring to Israel corporately, the opposite of the Greek manner of speaking.)Serve God for God. And serve Him with all you’ve got in the capacity He’s given you, as He has seen fit to place you into His bride. Then your reward will be great in heaven.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
Phil,
Sorry if I came across as tit-for-tat, I knew I was tired last night, I should have just gone to bed instead of staying up and writing sloppy comments, please forgive me.
Suffice it to say, at this point, that I disagree you. When Paul says in 14:1 that we should especially desire prophecy, I see no option but to desire it myself. Perhaps other people in my church are as well, but I still do not see how that allows me to not desire prophecy. If other people in my church are pursuing love in accordance with 14:1 then do I not have to pursue love?
I understand the point of 12:7-11. To me, 12:7-11 does not mean, “therefore, don’t pursue the gifts because God has it all worked out.” Rather, in light of 14:1 it means, “pursue the gifts, yet understand that God will only give to you that which he wills.”
I fully understand that though I may pray and ask for prophecy my whole life, God may never grant it. It is, as 1 Cor 12:11 declares, “as he wills”. But just because the gifts are “as he wills”, does not mean that I am then allowed to sit back and let his sovereignty take care of things.
We must always remember that there are two wills in God: his secret and revealed will. Compare Luke 22:3-6 to Acts 2:23. God’s revealed will is obviously that we not be possessed by Satan nor that we betray innocent people. Yet God’s secret will according to Acts 2:23 was that that very thing should happen.
So to me, saying, “we shouldn’t desire particular Spiritual gifts because the Bible says that it’s only according to his will that we receive them” is like saying, “we shouldn’t hold Judas accountable for doing evil because the Bible says that it’s according to God’s will that it happened.”
The Bible makes clear that Judas’ act was evil and it was according to the will of God. The Bible makes clear that we are to especially desire prophecy and that prophecy is apportioned according to the will of God. So why do we make guess work into the secret will of God concerning what he may or may not do instead of doing that which he commands?
Ultimately, we will be held accountable for following God’s revealed will, nothing else. I only seek to obey every command of Scripture and I allow God to “apportion to each on individually as he wills.” Why do you say that prophecy is not for you, do you know the hidden will of God? Then why do you not seek it? Has God not commanded you to do so in Scripture?
I hope that clears up your confusion about how I can simultaneously follow 1 Cor 14:1 and 1 Cor 12:11.
Second, you say, “your seeking gifts to serve primarily your fellow Christian is not Biblical.” And to that – I completely agree. I realized what I had done last night before I even fell asleep and asked God to forgive me for my man-centeredness. Truly, I only desire the gifts to glorify God, and should the gifts draw me away from that aim, may they disappear altogether.
If you want the number one reason why I desire prophecy, and want to know how I pray for it, simply read Paul’s prayer for the Ephesians in Eph 1:16-19. Oh to have the eyes of my heart enlightened by a spirit of wisdom and revelation that I may know God!
Thanks again for the discussion, please forgive me if my comment is at all unkind.
Robert
Robert,
There is nothing to be forgiven, my Brother. I can be harsh at times. God bless you.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
Reformed Albertan,
Thanks for following with me, and I appreciate your support. I completely understand that many will not be comfortable with saying that apostleship is for today. I do not want to be dogmatic about it, and am disappointed that the discussion has turned away from the charismatic gifts (what I actually know about) to apostleship and the inspiration of Scripture (what I don’t know about).
In response to your two objections:
#1 Paul did not physically walk with Christ, nor was he taught by him (physically). Indeed, he persecuted the church at first. This is my basis for holding that apostleship can happen today and is not a respecter of a person’s age, era, or past deeds.
#2 I believe (and I may be wrong on this if someone can provide a more precise exegesis) that when Paul says, “Last of all… he appeared also to me.” He means, “last of all” among those whom he has listed. He isn’t saying “last of all” in history. The context doesn’t seem to allow for a sweeping view of the church and it’s history and future. The context only seems to indicate a list of people he was forming at that time in history, among whom, he was certainly the last.
I know arguments from experience are really not helpful, but just to give you a modern-day idea of what I mean. I worked in the mission field in a closed country, where one way in which many came to the Lord was through dreams where they claim to have seen Christ bidding them come. I only believe their stories to be true because they indeed subsequently came to Christ, at much risk to themselves, and as Scripture says, you can recognize what is from God and what is not by its fruit (Matt 7:15-20).
I hope this helps, please continue to critique my arguments as you think of things.
Robert
I find the majority of the comments on this post very interesting and compelling. As much as I would like to respond to every one I obviously cannot. I would, however like to respond to those who asked me some questions about my initial comment to the original post.
I start with Steve Lamm. Steve, you asked two good questions.
1. “What is the gift on N.T. prophecy that Paul mentions in 1 Co. 12-14, and how does it manifest itself?
Great question. Anytime we take a look at the spiritual gifts in the N.T. we should ask some initial questions which verify whether or not they fulfill the mandate to serve the “common good” of the Body (1 Co. 12:7).
A. What is the purpose of this manifestation?
B. Does is exalt Jesus as Lord? (12:3)
C. Is it in agreement with and subjected to Scripture? (14:37-38)
God does not do anything that does not have purpose and does not glorify Jesus Christ (John 16:13-14).
The purpose of this particular gift is revealed in 1 Co. 14:3 and the way it is manifested is taught in 14:29-32. It is a “revelation” to the mind of the prophet. This simply means that the Holy Spirit illuminates a truth (already revealed in Scripture), brings something to mind that is important, or possibly discloses a present or future event. The spontaneous revelation is then reported to the church “in the prophet’s own (merely human) words” (Grudem, Systematic Theology, pg. 1057).
Your second question: “How much attention should we pay to what a modern prophet says?” My answer would be: ONLY as much as lines up with Scripture and does not violate your conscience. If what someone says does not agree with the Word… RUN! I’m not big into the whole idea that prophets give personal guidance. Most of the time, if this does occur, it will be something that God has already planted in the mind of the one receiving the prophecy. This would simply be a confirmation to what God is already doing in the individuals heart.
Derek W,
You said: “Those fouling God’s clear message are always called false prophets”.
Yes and No. Yes, if the person is exalting anything other than Jesus Christ and the gospel with the intent to lead people astray after other gods (or even other “Jesuses”). No, if an infallible man is simply preaching or teaching the infallible Word of God. It is evident that we don’t agree on everything but when someone violates the essentials of the Bible then we can begin to question their authenticity as a prophet or preacher. This is the case with prophecy as well. The inspiration may be from God, but it does NOT carry the authority of infallible revelation.
Derek, you also asked: “Would God use a fallible message, when we have His infallible Word?”
Of course, He does it all the time. Everytime your fallible Pastor gets up to exegete the infallible Word it happens. Why are their pre-tribs and post-tribs? Why do some believe in total immersion baptism and some do not? Why do we have differing views on church government and structure? It should be obvious. We do not always interpret things accurately. This applies to the N.T. gift of prophecy as well. As a matter of fact, teaching the Word of God has more authority than the gift of prophecy itself. Both of these, however, are in subjection to the inerrant, infallible and authoritative written Word of God.
The mistake most of us make is that we assume that the N.T. gift of prophecy is to be considered as authoritative as the O.T. office of a Prophet. Jesus said that all the Prophets prophesied until John. That means that the O.T. canon was closed. The contrast between the Apostles of Jesus Christ and N.T. Prophets is great.
1. The Apostles were called, trained and sent by Jesus Christ personally. N.T. Prophets were not.
2. The Apostles were the highest authority in the early church and their writings were considered scripture. N.T. Prophets were not.
3. The Scripture instructs us to obey the teaching of the Apostles, not the prophecies of the Prophets.
I believe Dr. Grudem articulated well in his Systematic Theology:
“By contrast, no human speech act that is called “teaching” or done by a “teacher,” or described by the verb “teach,” is ever said to be based on a “revelation” in the New Testament. Rather, “teaching” is often simply an explanation or application of Scripture (Acts 15:35; 18:11, 24-28; Rom. 2:21; 15:4; Col. 3:16; Heb. 5:12) or a repetition and explanation of apostolic instructions (Rom. 16:17; 2 Tim. 2:2; 3:10; et al.). It is what we would call “Bible teaching” or “preaching” today. SO PROPHECY HAS LESS AUTHORITY THAN “TEACHING” and prophecies in the church are always to be subject to the authoritative teaching of Scripture. Timothy was not told to prophesy Paul’s instructions in the church; he was to teach them (1 Tim. 4:11; 6:2). Paul did not prophesy his lifestyle in Christ in every church; he taught it (1 Co. 4:17). The Thessalonians were not told to hold firm to the traditions that were “prophesied” to them but to the traditions that they were “taught” by Paul (2 Thess. 2:15). Contrary to some views, IT WAS TEACHERS, NOT PROPHETS, who gave leadership and direction to the early churches.” -Pg. 1058, pt. 6
In Christ,
Chris
Phil said:
“…your seeking gifts to serve primarily your fellow Christian is not biblical.”
Riley:
1Co 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
This sounds like edifying (serving) the church (your fellow Christian) is biblical.
The gifts are not for God’s benefit. He doesn’t need anything. I Cor. 12:7 “But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.” “For the common good” states that that the purpose “for” of the gifts is to benefit “the common good”. That’t the church, your fellow Christians.
We are to seek the gifts, even specific ones like prophecy, for the benefit of the body of Christ and even seek to excel at them.
This does not violate of love or service towards God.
1Jo 4:20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
One of the major way that we show our love for God is that we love one another. The spiritual gifts are simply one way of showing that love when handled properly.
Your in Christ,
Riley
I would appreciate if somebody can help me understand this properly. I understand and absolutely agree that the canon is closed. Nothing under the sun could be added to it. It is final. Done – until Christ returns that is. The argument then goes, since the canon is closed, anything that could potentially be considered as a divine revelation from God to us beyond the Bible is simply absurd. This would then suggest the Bible is the only tool in which God speaks to us. There is no more divine intervention. Can we then conclude the true faith that comes to us through the gospel is our own work and not God’s as some people get it and some people don’t despite hearing or reading the same message?
Student in Christ,
Riley,
I John 5:2–”By this thing we are knowing if we are loving the children of God, if God we are loving and His commandments we are doing.” You can’t love the children of God by disobeying I Cor 12 or any other of God’s commandments.
Robert wants the gift of prophecy for the good of the church, he says. He’s lying to himself and I can prove it four ways:
1. If Robert’s only desire is the edification of the church, why does he not pray for another to be a prophet? Why him?
2. If Robert’s only desire is the edification of the church, I can answer his prayer here and now. Why not take a second job and put that money toward a biblical education of another young man? That young man can learn to rightly divide the prophetic Word and minister to the church. There you have it. He can stop praying right now and apply at Burger King. They have flexible hours, you know.
3. If Robert’s only desire is the edification of the church, why does he not pray to be a very gifted church janitor and maintenance man? Like Bezalel (the first explicitly recorded man to be miraculously filled with the Spirit), he could provide a good place for the congregation to worship and be edified.
4. If Robert’s only desire is the edification of the church, why does he not quit praying for another prophecy and study the thousands of pages of prophecy already given in Scripture. Of course, that would involve work and obedience, but it works.
If he would submit to God as commanded in I Cor. 12, his emphasis wouldn’t be on him being this or that. It would be no problem for him to accept the gifts God has given him and go to work. Instead, he is thrashing about, very discontent because he wishes to do it his way, instead of God’s.
I believe it was A. W. Tozer who told of his mission experience in Africa. He went initially to save the Africans. When he got there he found they didn’t want saved. His frustration sparked his conversion from man-centered to God-centered.
If Tozer had gone to Africa and had no results is that failure? To the young Tozer and to Robert, yes. To the mature Tozer, no. Obedience is biblical success. Read Hebrews 11 and 12. Talk about a bunch of “failures” mixed with a buch of “success.” Many believers have died in obscurity or been martyred in ignominy, with no “fruit.” According to Hebrews, they were successful and examples for us.
So no. The primary goal of ministry is not the salvation or edification of others. That is a secondary goal. The primary goal of ministry is to honor the Lamb Who was slain.
Like the mother of the sons of Zebedee, Robert doesn’t know what he’s asking. The story is found in Matthew 20. Never ask for that which God has reserved for His sovereign choice. Jesus’ answer was, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?”
Like young Tozer, Robert will remain discontent because he has a plan that’s not working. Like young Tozer, he’s man-centered, because he hasn’t submitted to the will of the Spirit expressed in Scripture.
Stop worrying about how God will use YOU. Forget YOU. Obey God from day to day. Get to work. Hone the gifts He’s given. Then your reward will be great in heaven.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
Quothe Tozer: “God wants worshipers before workers.”
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
Riley,
The Africa story was from Paris Reidhead, not Tozer.
Phil.
Dear BHC,
That is a good question. I think the first thing to understand is that for most of history and for almost all the believer’s through out all the ages have been saved through hearing the world. Experiences such as Isaiah or Paul had are extremely rare and are the exception not the rule.
The 2nd thing is to consider the means by which God chooses to save. God could’ve used direct intervention through dreams or perhaps He could use angels to come knock on our doors. However, what He has done is choose humans to spread the word. God has ordained the end, but He has also ordained the means by which those ends find their fulfillment.
An analogy- Take your sight for example. Whenever you see something you must physical open your eyelids and your sight is never apart from the physical motion of your eyelids.
Take salvation , it is never granted away from the preaching of the Gospel by normal people.
Romans 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”
Now how much of this is your doing? None! You did not seek God, but He found you out. You were spiritually blind, but God opened your eyes. You had no commission in the world and now God has given you one to proclaim the Gospel. Whenever you open your mouth and speak and someone hears and turns it was God working in that other persons heart through your words. Your words in of themselves would have been completely powerless. Furthermore, God also planned the people you will meet in your life, where you meet them, time you meet them, etc.
Nothing can be attributed to us in this case – what did we do except be bestowed the honor to be used by God.
2 Corinthians 4:7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves;
This verse basically somes it up. God used things of no value, so that if any credit was to bestowed (say in your proclamation of the Gospel) all the glory would go to God. If someone were to try to credit you or if you were trying credit yourself, since by nature you are just an earthen vessels, you know that it was nothing in of yourself that could possibly do it. This is a key point, I believe, as to why God chooses humble, little people, so that when the message comes people know who it is from (and not from).
Hope that helped,
-John
Thank you John. I guess the specific question I was try to arise is not what takes place in the realities of the temporal world through what some calls God’s “providence” verse miracle (but which is the ultimate question but please never mind that for now) but what happens spiritually. Just as you say, I do believe God has planned the people I’ll meet, where I’ll meet and the time I’ll meet them. But how about the reaction that takes place within us through the people we meet and the gospel we hear? Could that also be considered a spiritual act of providence? In order worlds, is it simply a rational reaction to the words that are spoken to us where no other reasonable reaction is possible? Or do we need God’s divine intervention in our hearts, or wherever it is that inspires our conviction, to make us believe and gain true faith? If so, God gives us something words alone could not achieve and is still very active to this very day contrary to what some cessationists would argue. On the other hand, where it is simply a rational reaction, could we not then simply develop a cookie cut strategy for all men to favorably react to the gospel since it is within our human ability to stir up our faith? So I guess what I am trying to understand is whether God interacts with us outside of the Bible and the human realities or providence (sorry I wish I had a better word to describe the circumstantial realities that God has arranged from the beginning to the end that are within the bounds of what humans would consider “normal”).
The last living Apostle wrote the book of Revelation, his name was John. Anyone who claims to be an apostle
after that is a FALSE apostle and a LIAR(Revelation 2:2)
Apostolic Succession is a FALSE DOCTRINE propagated by
the Roman Catholic Church. The signs of an apostle are
listed in Mark 16:15-18, and are spoken of in the PAST
TENSE in 2 Corinthians 12:12
The daughters in Acts of the Apostles who spoke in tongues and prophecied DID NOT do so in the Assembly,
as it was contrary to the LAW, and contrary to the commandment of Jesus Christ(1st Corinthians 14:32-38).
IT IS THAT SIMPLE. Anyone who would suggest otherwise
is misinformed, ignorant of the facts of scripture and
church history, as well as led by THE DEVIL.
The Roman Catholic Church of Satan who is the first
progenator of the FASLE DOCTRINE of Apostolic Succession
coincidentally also does not believe that the Holy Bible
consists of 66 books. They have also pronounced a devine curse on anyone who refuses to accept Apocryphal
books of the Roman Catholic Church as inspired by God.
The Roman Catholic Church also has 2 letters in their
possession (First and 2nd Clement) Some suggest that
1st Clement may have been written to Corinth as early
as the 60’s in the first Century. If this is true, we
know who the false apostles in 2nd Corinthians 11:11-15
were(ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIESTS). If this is true, then we
would be prudent to assume that The Lord Jesus Christ
REMOVED his candelstick from its place in Corinth due to
their refusal to REPENT, just like he later admonished
the Ephesians in Revelation 2:5. If this is true, Satan
has a candlestick to set up in its place and it does
emit light(LUCIPHER) is an angel of light. Corinth as a
whole DID NOT REPENT. The true believers at Corinth fell
asleep(died off) and the ones left became a leavened
lump, because that which is joined to an harlot is an harlot. Rome is a GREAT WHORE, and a MOTHER OF HARLOTS,
who has spawned many harlot daughter religions from her
blasphemous and abominable womb. Those harlot daughters
still intact today claim to speak in tongues, prophecy,
and all kinds of incoherent nonsense. Remember Edward
Irving the Sodomite expelled from the Presbyterians and
set up a group he called the Catholic Apostolic Church.
He ordained 12 women apostles and they all BABBLED with the VAIN BABBLING(TONGUES). The word(babble) comes from
BABEL. Remember the tower of Babel. Did God disperse
those people who were all in one accord building a tower
and confound their common language with a diversity of
TONGUES because he was pleased with what they were doing?
If speaking in tongues and giving false prophecies is
evidence of salvation, then the RCC is Christian too.
If speaking in tongues and giving false prophecies is
evidence of salvation, then so is black robed priests
molesting little children in the name of Christ, just
because they included the name of Christ in what they
were doing. If speaking in tongues and giving false prophecies is evidence of salvation, I am on my way to
Hell for believing the Holy Scriptures.
Biblical tongues are over, those who purpose otherwise
are supporters of vain babblings. Cessationists obey the
scriptures and SHUN VAIN BABBLINGS(2nd Timothy 2:16-17).
No one in the NEW TESTAMENT is told to covet TONGUES.
tongues and Prophecy are not synonymous, NEVER HAVE
BEEN, and furthermore NEVER WILL BE for a Christian.
The ones who claim to cast out devils, prophecy , and
bost of their many wonderful works in Matthew 7:22 are
“workers of iniquity”. The Apostle Paul warned the saints in 2nd Thess 2 vs 7 that the “Mystery of Iniquity” DOTH ALREADY WORK. Paul wrote that letter to
the Thessalonian saints from CORINTH in 54 AD.
Peter never should have laid hands on a man named Nicolas at Antioch(Acts of the Apostles 10:5),(Galatians
2:11),(Revelation 2:6),(Matthew 23:15),(Matthew 10:5).
Rome is responsible for the X-Mass and jolly old
Saint Nicolas, and worship Mary in TONGUES.
I do desire all that Jesus Christ has for me. I am
certain he does not want me to prophecy apart from
that which he has already settled in the VOLUME OF A BOOK(Hebrews 12:7).
Paul spoke several tongues(KNOWN LANGUAGES) before he got saved by Jesus Christ on the road to Damnascus.
Paul withstood Peter to the face because he was to be
blamed for something that took place at Antioch.
Peter laid hands on Nicolas at Antioch. He should have remembered what Jesus said about going to the lost sheep
of the house of Israel and Go not in the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not. The Lord Jesus Christ had to use Paul to chew
Peter’s butt out for it, just like he used Paul to chew Corinth’s butt out for letting women run their mouth in the Church(1st Corinthians 14:32-38). Peter repented of
his error, Corinth as a whole on the other hand did not.
Some Christians knew what[PERFECT]is(1st Cor.2:6)because
when they got saved HE came and lived in their hearts.
Most of that which remained intact of Corinth in 64 AD
had not been born again(2nd Corinthians 13:9). They were
straightened in their own bowels(2nd Corinthians 2:6).
Bowels are in the BELLY.(Phil. 3;18-19), and they always
claim they can feeeeeel it (Ephesians 4:18,19). They
accuse those whom they cannot drag down to their level
stupidity(1st Corinthians 14:38) of blasphemy of the
Holy Ghost.
Please check all scripture in a REAL BIBLE AV 1611 KJB
God bless the blood washed saved sinner Christian cessationist saints.
To hell with the vain babblers.
If you cannot make up your mind you are guilty of standing on both sides of a barbedwire fence at the same time. Choose one side or the other. If you are
standing in the middle of a highway you are likely to
get run over from both directions.
The Charismatic movement has spread more confusion the
world over than its whore mama the RCC. God is not the
author of the Charismatic movement, Satan is.
I am CERTAIN OF THIS FACT.
Hey BHC,
I see what you are talking about now and I so let me try to address your concern to the best of my ability.
I think you’re hitting right on the nail, except you might not quite understand the cessastionist’s view. But it’s true that reason is not sufficient enough. If you look at Romans 1:20, you will see that in fact everybody does know God, the problem isn’t knowledge the problem is sin is suppressing that knowledge and deceiving the unbeliever. For instance, take the resurrection of Christ. What greater evidence can their be?! I mean the Pharisee’s and the guards believed the resurrection, yet still denied Christ. So that’s why it does take divine intervention as you say to break open hearts – reason is insufficient.
So you are right in that there is no cookie cutter strategy, but wrong in the fact that cessastionist’s argue against divine intervention in our lives! Cessastionist’s most def. believe that God’s direct intervention and this does not contradict with our view. In fact it makes preaching the Gospel all the more powerful as we don’t need to rely on gifts, but just the preaching of the word and the work of God.
What cessastionist argue against is God’s direct intervention by giving people specific sign gifts (tongues, prophecy, miracles, and healing) to validate the Gospel. He doesn’t need to do that any longer, b/c the Scripture is sufficient. I think that’s the crux of the cessationst/charismatic argument – Are the gifts still available and are they needed.
The other part involving reasoning is more of a Calvinist/Ariminian argument, not a debate over the gifts. Even the charismatic Calvinist depend on God to change the heart, not on the power of the gifts + reason + good presentation ~ Arminian charismatics are a different story.
To sum up – both sides of the (Calvinist) fence believe reason is not sufficient. Cessastionts most def. believe that God is active and working in our hearts, in the world, and in unbelievers to draw them to Him. Cessastionists do not argue against the fact that God is directly and intimately working in our lives, but that he is no longer giving people specific sign gifts along w/ the completed canon for salvation, edification, etc. I think you need ask charismatics the question you asked cessastionsts? Do you need the gifts to convince people or is preaching the Gospel good enough? Do you need something else other than the Bible for edification? Did God leave something lacking in our lives, the Bible, prayer, and fellowship that He needs to give us Sign Gifts on top of that? And I most def. believe the preaching of the Gospel and the direct work of God in our lives is more than sufficient.
If you have any other questions, or if something is unclear let me know.
Your brother in Christ,
-John
2nd Timothy 2:16,17
“But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
And their word will eat as doth a canker; of whom is
Hymaneus and Philetus.”
Hymaneus and Philetus were dilivered to Satan for the
dustruction of the flesh. Having the flesh destroyed
is not getting beat up a little bit. Having the flesh destroyed is getting killed dead as a doorknob. Hymaneus
and Philetus were from CORINTH, the only church that
had to be rebuked for the misuse of tongues. JUST EXACTLY LIKE THE CHARISMATICS TODAY. Charismatics words
eat away the truth of the scriptures by superimposing
TONGUES and Prophecy in TONGUES to a higher authority
than the HOLY SCRIPTURES.
Ask yourself the following questions
Has the old USA become more Godly with the introduction
of Pentecostalism and the unholyghost revival tongues
of hellfire?
Since 1906 are their fewer Sodomites in America than there were before 1906?
Didn’t the Mormans who were led by the High Mason Joseph
Smith who claimed to get some tablets from an angel
(Colossians 2:18)also claim the ability to Prophecy,
speak in tongues and cast out devils(Matthew 7:22,23)?
Didn’t Deana Laney, Andrea Yates, and Lisa Montgomery
all speak in tongues as evidence of a ghost in their
respective Pentecostal Assemblies before the first 2
heard voices like the one Peter heard in Acts 10:13,
and obey the voice and murder their own children?
Lisa Montgomery who spoke in tongues went and cut an
unborn baby from the womb of an innocent woman because
she wanted a baby, faked the pregnancy, fooled every
member of the Pentecostal Church of God she attended
where they all speak in tongues but have NO DISCERNMENT
(Hebrews 5:14).
Did any of the Pentecostals who existed prior to 1948
speak up in their churches and prophecy that God told
them PIUS XII and Adolph Hitler(Roman Catholics) were
going to murder 6 million Jew before it happened??????
Didn’t the Pentecostals before 1948 claim they were the
144,000 just like the Jehovas Witness(REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY) whom they scorn.
When they are confronted with John 10:28 and 29 why do
they get all hot under the collar and exclaim..”I don’t
care what that verse said, I just believe that you can
JUMP out”? Well,the unclean spirits of Revelation 16 vs
13 and 14 are said to be LIKE frogs, and frogs JUMP don’t they! According to the Holy Scriptures those
“unclean spirits LIKE frogs” are spirits of DEVILS,
WORKING MIRACLES. You had best remember that one the next time some tongues babbler says Satan cannot heal
someone. Back to John 10:28, the real reason the charismatic suggests a you can JUMP out is simply because
THEY DO NOT HEAR THE VOICE OF JESUS CHRIST AND FOLLOW
HIM(John 10:27), They will run to a verse in Revelation
where a JEWISH TRIBULATION SAINT in the Tribulation who
does not keep every commandment can have their name blotted out. Some of you who have had the sad misfortune of dealing with these type of people KNOW
I am telling the truth. And when they do that it is a demonstration that they are ardent practitioners of
REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY attempting to place the church
age in the tribulation.
The Book said 2nd Timothy 2:15
“STUDY to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that
needeth not to be ashamed,RIGHTLY DIVIDING the word of truth.”
The Cannon of Holy Scripture is66 books in the VOLUME OF A BOOK. Before the cannon was complete the
Saints at Ephesus already had enough scripture in their
possession to TRY THOSE WHO SAID THEY WERE APOSTLES, and WERE NOT, but found them to be LIARS. The Saints at
Ephesus had already tried the oldtime Charismatics by
the words of God and found them to be the LIARS they ARE
even though they had not yet been commended by Jesus Christ in Revelation 2:2 for doing so.
I cannot bear evil charismatics(Revelation 2:2)
I by the grace of God and with faith in the blood of
Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit he sealed me with
until the day of redemption am going to fight the good fight of faith against the EVIL CHARISMATIC VAIN BABBLERS AND FALSE PROPHETS until I meet Jesus in the
air at the rapture, or my heart quits beating which ever
occurs first. I would suggest that those of you who
love Jesus Christ in sincerity and truth do the same thing as you’ll be rewarded for doing so at the Judgement seat of Christ. The Charismaitcs have another
judgement waiting for them(THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGE-
MENT Revelation 20:11-15, 2nd Corinthians 11:11-15).
The jesus of the charismatic movement is described
clearly in 2nd Corinthians 11:4 and Galatians 1:6-9
and he is a deciever, a liar, a thief, and a murderor.
A SHEEP STEALER.
Thank you John for your clarification. I personally do lean quite a bit towards cessationism but I don’t see how the canon being closed and thus cessation of the gifts of the spirit has any link (based on my humble opinnion, the biblical verses supporting cessationism are not much more convincing than those verses support otherwise and I thought canon being closed is one of the better arguments against charismatics and wanted to get a better understanding – and I thank you for sharing your thoughts). Since as you say, and I do definitely agree, God is very active and does give us something that human reasons and abilities alone can’t accomplish, what the Bible alone cannot accomplish. For me this is nothing less than a miracle since we are put into a state where it is utterly impossible for us to be at. No less miraculous than us being able to live in space (I am reminded of Christ’s question – which is easier pick up the mat and walk or your sins are forgiven). We can then deduce God does perform miracles to accomplish His will, when it is necessary. Yes, like you I don’t believe speaking in tongue, prophesying and healing are necessary particularly now days. And more or less my view of those who practice them are quite skeptical. Nonetheless to close the door that God will never use those gifts ever again seems to me somewhat dogmatic as if we are telling God what He can and He can’t do (I know some one might say here it is not us telling God but God telling us through the Bible but as I mentioned earlier that argument I am not so convinced). I rather have 10 million faults prophets prove themselves wrong to hear one true prophecy from God than consider them all lunatics.
Student in Christ,
Phil,
If you don’t believe we are to desire the gifts for the building of the church then please provide an argument from Scripture. I could make a list all day of different ways in which I could help build the church, and many of the ways would be Biblical.
I never claimed that the charismatic gifts were the only way in which to build the church. I merely claimed that they do and that is one reason why I desire them.
And just so you are aware, I do pray that God would pour out the gift of prophecy on many in the church, I do work two jobs and give to the church, I do seek to work in the church as I am currently gifted, and I do study as much as I am humanly able the pages of Scripture inspired by God. All of these things are commanded in Scripture. So is pursuing the spiritual gifts. Why do you leave that one out?
All I really need is for you to show, based on all of Scripture, how 1 Cor 14:1 is supposed to play out in real life. I tried to show how 1 Cor 14:1 plays out in real life, based on the rest of Scripture, specifically based on 1 Cor 12:11. I never received a response to that. How is my interpretation wrong? How is your interpretation right?
If you want to continue this discussion it might be good to either jump over to my blog or just email me. The comment chain is getting so long here I can’t bring it up on Firefox and it’s becoming infiltrated by those who refuse reasonable debate.
Robert
Brandon,
Just so you are aware, I am not advocating apostolic succession. I do think that is very wrong. The Bible gives specific criteria for one who is an apostle, and voting is not one of them.
Also, so you are aware, other than the charismatic gifts, I hold to reformed protestant doctrine. I am not a Mormon or Jehovah’s witness, nor do I sympathize with their error.
Lastly, if you haven’t noticed, what people are seeking to do here is give arguments from the Word of God advocating why they believe as they do. If you would do the same, it would help us to build one another up as God would have us do. Condeming one another in no way conforms to Christ’s teaching.
I hope to dialogue with you in the future.
Grace to you,
Robert
I hear yah BHC.
Keep searching for the answer. I’ve enjoyed the exchange.
CBX,
Good post, I agree.
You said,
1. The Apostles were called, trained and sent by Jesus Christ personally. N.T. Prophets were not.
2. The Apostles were the highest authority in the early church and their writings were considered scripture. N.T. Prophets were not.
3. The Scripture instructs us to obey the teaching of the Apostles, not the prophecies of the Prophets.
I would add to that:
4. The Bible never tells us to judge or test the scripture. We judge and test everything else by the scripture. We are told to judge prophecy and test the spirits (by which they prophecy). I Cor. 14:29; I John 4:1-3; I Cor. 12:3 This obviously implies a lower authority for prophecy than for the scriptures.
I would also like to say that even the prophecy of a recognized NT prophet like Agabus was not automatically equated with scripture or even included in the Bible.
Act 11:28 “And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.” We told about it but are not given the exact words that he spoke.
This legitimate and accurately fulfilled prophecy by a recognized NT prophet still didn’t get included in the text of the scripture.
The idea that all prophecy is equal to scripture and should be added to the Bible is unsupportable. The Bible itself does not include even legitimate prophecies.
Does a completed Bible prohibit any other form of revelation from God?
2Ti 3:16 “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” The same Paul who wrote this scripture also wrote:
1Ti 4:14 “Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.”
I don’t believe Paul saw a conflict between the completed scripture and prophecy. I think many of you are simply presuming this conflict because you wish it to be so.
Prophecy, visions, dreams, the Spirit speaking to people: All these forms of revelation from God are spoken of in the Bible. It frankly doesn’t make sense that these forms of revelation seen in the Bible would be excluded by the completion of the Bible. Surely the sufficiency of the scriptures includes all of the things written in the scriptures.
It’s as if you’re saying, “We believe in the completed Bible, but we aren’t about to believe in the other forms of revelation that our completed Bible tells us about.”
Are you sure you’re not just concocting an elaborate self justification for your lack of experience in these areas?
I consider this artificially concocted conflict between the scriptures and other scripturally revealed forms of revelation to be an absurdity.
Yours in Christ,
Riley
Robert Ivy,
I did not say we are not to “desire” gifts for the body. You, specifically, and individually will only be given those gifts the Spirit wills for you. Again–ICor. 12:7-11.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
Robert, why I believe as I do is because I believe
Jesus Christ and his words which I already went into
in a lengthy discussion at the very beginning of this
debate. Roughly 50% of the first page of this discussion
containing 109 total comments are written by me. I would reccommend you go back and read that page and check the scriptures that I laid out.
This has not been dialogue on my part, but rather
SHARP REBUKE.
The Charismatic movement is evil on steroids, and I pray God in Jesus Christ that you find out the TRUTH,
before you end up in HELL with them.
For anyone else who wants to know the TRUTH about the
Charismatic Movement I would suggest ….
“Fifty Things You Should Know about Tongues and Healing”
written by James L. Melton
Read it online for free, check the scriptures listed in
the context which God preserved them and you will come
to the conclusion, if you have an honest heart and love
the Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity and truth, that the
Charismatic Movement is something that a Bloodbought child of God should abhor with every fibre of his or her
being.
If condemning one another in no way conforms to Christ’s
teachings, then I would ask why do Charismatics accuse
BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIANS of the cessationists persuasion of blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, at the same time the ghost charismatics are possessed with trys to make a lair out of Jesus Christ.
I must have ruffeled his feathers when I brought up the
John chapter 10 thing. I cannot jump out of Christ’s
hands, he has a hold on me. If you are a Charismatic
you had better JUMP out of that mess REAL SOON lest
you wake up in HELL.
Bye, Bye again for a while.
WHO ARE THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB?
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Twelve tribes, twelve thrones, and twelve foundations, so how many apostles of the Lamb are there? Twelve. This is plain, obvious, and reasonable and plainly stated in the Bible?
This is a specific group of only 12 men who have a particularly Jewish flavor. They will judge the 12 tribes of Israel, their names will be on the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem. In each case there are only 12 tribes and only 12 foundations. There can only be 12 apostles of the Lamb just as the Bible states (Rev 21:14). Just as the New Jerusalem sits on a foundation of 12 stones, so also the church was build on a foundation laid by the 12 apostles. How did they lay this foundation? It was not just by writing scripture. Only 3 of them wrote scripture, but all of them preached and taught the same accurate message about Jesus Christ.
After Judas died, Peter said that the replacement for Judas had to have been with them from the beginning. Did Peter miss it concerning this? If you think so why doesn’t the Bible correct it anywhere?
Paul, on the other hand, was not accepted by the Jews. He was the apostle to the Gentiles not the Jews. It wouldn’t fit for Paul to be sitting on one of the 12 thrones judging one of the 12 tribes of Israel. Paul was also not a witness of, “all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem;” Acts 10:31, and he had not, “…companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us.” (Acts 1:21) He did not qualify to replace Judas. Paul said, “For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves:…” 2Co 10:12 What other number concerning apostleship could Paul have been referring to that would be so well known to the readers as to be unnecessary to state, if not “the twelve?” I believe that Paul was saying he didn’t dare count himself as being one of the twelve apostles.
The Bible says, “Matthias… was numbered with THE ELEVEN apostles.” These are not the words of Peter. It is a Biblical statement of fact. The Bible also refers to “the 12” in Acts 6:2, and Paul wasn’t even saved yet. That should settles it. Matthias has to be the 12th apostle being referred to. It’s a matter of Biblical inerrancy. You either have to admit that Matthias is the 12th apostle according to Acts 6:2 or else state that the Bible is in error.
So the twelve apostles consist of the original 11 plus Matthias.
I will submit another post as soon as I can about the NINETEEN named apostles in the NT.
Yours in Christ,
Riley
Correction:
This is plain, obvious, and reasonable and plainly stated in the Bible?
This statement posted about should not have had a question mark at the end.
Riley
“I cannot bear evil charismatics (Rev. 2:2).”
Funny, I don’t remember Jesus actually referring to charismatics in the context of that particular scripture. This is sad. It is obvious through your constant abuses of the Scripture that your disbelief and condemnation of those who believe in the operation of spiritaul gifts is based more on prejudice hatred than proper biblical interpretation.
“The jesus of the charismatic movement is described
clearly in 2nd Corinthians 11:4 and Galatians 1:6-9
and he is a deciever, a liar, a thief, and a murderor.
A SHEEP STEALER.”
If a person who calls themself a charismatic or continuationist believes in and obeys the essential elements and doctrines of the gospel then they are true disciples indeed. With or without your approval. I encourage you to look up all the passages of Scripture with the word “love” in them that are speaking of Christian love for one another.
I may not agree with my cessationist brethren when it comes to the cessation or continuation of the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit, but I love them just as much. John MacArthur is one of my favorite teachers and I am blessed and strengthen (and convicted) everytime I hear him. He is a strong classical cessationist, but that does not change my level of respect and love toward him. You would do well, Brandon, to take heed before you speak against those whom you accuse as being “evil charismatics”. Granted, there are those whom we have tagged as “charismaniacs” who have no respect for the scripture or reverence a Holy God. Keep in mind, however that the Scripture warns: “With the fruit of a man’s mouth his stomach witll be satisfied” and “every idle word that a man shall speak he shall give an account thereof in the day of judgment.”
Riley Brown
Paul was THE APOSTLE to the GENTILES Romans 11:13
” For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles.”
As far as Judas Iscariot he was a SAMARITAN, and not
a good one. When Matthias took his place then all of
a sudden we have 12 Galilaeans(Acts 2:7) Judas Iscariot
was a devil(John 6:70) Charismatics claim Judas Iscariot
got saved and lost his salvation so you can loose yours
too, they are undoubtedly terribly stupid. JUDAS ISCARIOT was NEVER SAVED, Judas Iscariot never had salvation to loose. HE WAS A DEVIL.(John 6:70) See the kind of mess Charismatics get thereself into when they
have already made up their own mind what they are going
to believe about the scriptures, without fervent study
of the scriptures rightly dividing the scriptures.
Peter did miss some stuff Riley like his misquotation
of Joel. Joel didn’t say “whosoever calleth on the name of the Lord shall be saved” Joel said “whosoever calleth
upon the name of the Lord shall be d-e-l-i-v-e-r-e-d.
When Peter stood there in Acts 2 and ” But this is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel(IT WAS NOT)
The sun did NOT turn dark and the moon did NOT turn into
blood(Joel 2 vs 31,32)The “dreams and visions” in Joel
will be fullfilled with JEWISH TRIBULATION SAINTS in the
GREAT Tribulation. Peter wanted the Lord to come so bad
he prematurely anticipated the fulfillment of Joel.
Peter missed alot of things, but Jesus Christ emboldened Paul to REBUKE Peter to his face for his
errors(Galatians 2:11 58 AD) Later on Peter is greateful
for the wisdom Jesus Christ gave him through the Apostle
Paul(2nd Peter 2:15-17 66 AD).
Those 12 tribes 12 GATES with a names of each of the 12
tribes of Israel are not for a CHRISTIAN, They are for
JEWS(Most esp. Jewish Tribulation Saints who get saved
in the Great Tribulation. BEWARE of those who would to
tell you to “strive to enter in through a gate”
when Christians don’t enter through a Gate but rather
a DOOR(John chapter 10:6-9)Jesus Christ IS THAT DOOR.
Paul bumped into that door on the Road to Damascus.
It is ashamed that the dreams and visions crew today
not being taught by the Bible nor led by the Spirit
always fail to make these distinctions in their futile
attempts to properly exegete the scriptures.
By the way if the alleged charismatic
gifts(CURSES) were the former and latter rain of Joel,
why in the world is Israel in the mess it is in to this
day. Just think about it !
God bless
CBX I am not abusing the Scriptures. You ARE.
If you want to be a stupid charismatic glossalalia idiot
why call your self a Charismatic Baptist, when Spurgeon
and Moody, Torry and the like made reference to those
of your persuasion(Galatians 5:8) as to such as
“THE LAST VOMIT OF SATAN” that is what the above mentioned men who loved the Lord thought and spoke against those just like yourself. Stop calling yourself a Baptist, and call yourself what you are a
PENTECOSTAL. You don’t believe the scriptures if you did
you would be honest. I will call you exactly what you are a Pentecostal Charismatic WOLF hiding under a Baptist Banner. You ARE A LIAR, I don’t give a hooky poot how sweet you try to appear, I can see through it and I am not alone, Jesus lives in my heart, and sits
at the right hand of God the Father in the third heaven
and and his Spirit intercedes on my behalf when I don’t
even know what to pray for as I aught with GROANINGS
WHICH CANNOT BE UTTERED. IF IT CANNOT BE UTTERED THE TONGUE CANNOT FLOP IT! I have witnessed the confusion
and division and strife folks like you bring into a
REAL BAPTIST CHURCH before they catch you and usher
you out and get things back to the Bible.
You can fool alot of Bible rejectors with those wishy
washy “good words and fair speeches”, but you cannot
fool a BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIAN. And if you want to defend the Charismatic movement you had best trade in your KJB for a modern perversion just like the vast
majority of charismatics have done to support their
doctrines of devils.
I honestly and truly BELIEVE in my heart the old AV1611
KJB is THE WORDS OF GOD IN THE UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE OF
THE END TIME with NO provemn errors. Due to this fact
and the Holy Spirit who is my teacher. You don’t intimidate me, and I am not afraid to call you a devil
possessed LIAR on the internet or in person even though
if in person you may physically attack me and beat me up
bloody like a few charismatics have already done for
PREACHING THE TRUTH ON THE STREET, and exposing folks
like you for the liars you are.
The facts I listed in the above posts are very intimidating to a charismatic, because THEY ARE FACTS
which no one in their right mind saved or lost would deny. IT IS CALLED FRUIT INSPECTION. ALL CHARISMATIC
FRUIT ROTTON TO THE CORE.
Now for those of you who like a link to …
“Fifty Things You Should Know about Tongues and Healing”
written by James L. Melton
http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton.html
Some more GOOD READING
“Clownsville Carnival”
written by Dr.Peter Ruckman
301 Pages of documented FACTS that no charismatic wants
you to know because its true, and the Scriptures that
God inspired to refute the blasphemous Charismaniac
phenomena(Signs and LYING Wonders). This very informative book may be purchased for a low cost
from Bible Baptist Bookstore in Pensacola Florida
Corinth was not straightened out in the teaching of
Christ through Paul .
2nd Corinthians 6:12
“Ye are not straightened in us, but ye are straightened in your own bowels”
When I listed 2nd Corinthians 2:6 I gave the wrong verse
please accept my correction.
BOWELS ARE IN THE BELLY, and those Paul wrote of in
Phil.3:18,19 whose glory was in the shame, had their
god in their belly.
this is a “mystery” that is not supposed to remain a
mystery for someone who has a complete BIBLE.
Another funny thing
I cannot find the word “Charismatic” in the Bible.
Another funny thing
I cannot fing the words “Prophesying in tongues”
in the Bible.
Another funny thing
I cannot find the word “DIALOGUE” in the Bible.
Another funny thing
I cannot find in the Holy Bible where a Christain
is told to be nice to, and never offend a falsly
professing christian.
Another funny thing
I did find in the Bible that there are some people
out there who claim to have dreams and visions that
Jude said were filthy dreamers who defile the flesh
Jude 8 and even Enoch the 7 th from Adam prophesied of them Jude 14.
Another funny thing I did find in the Bible we are supposed to
TRY THE SPIRITS(Not someones profession of faith)
(1st John 4:1) and I found out it is a sin to even
bid some Godspeed(1st John 4:10,11), if they bring the
WRONG DOCTRINE.
Another funny thing
I found a woman preacher in the Bible who calleth herself a prophetess, and JESUS CHRIST cannot stand her
and DOES NOT EXPECT A CHRISTIAN PUT UP WITH HER NONSENSE. MOST of the JEZEBELS(Rev 2:20) are charismatics. The Vast Majority of Jezebels in America
are CHARISMATICS who always say God told themselves
something other than 1st Corinthians 14:32-38, and they
Know it was the HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLY Ghost because they
could feel it(Ephesians 4:18,19) Yeah man! they can
FEEEEEEEEEL it in their BELLY(Ephesians 4:18,19)
I did find in the Bible these words which are the
great commission for a Gentile Christian Preacher.
2nd Timothy 4:1-4
I charge thee before God , and the Lord Jesus Christ,
who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
PREACH THE WORD; be instant in season, out of season;
reprove,rebuke, and exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound
doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they will turn away their ears from the truth, and
shall be turned unto fables.
People today want to hear something that tickles their ears
and feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeels good, and makes them feeeeeel better about their own sinful condition.
People today don’t desire the fed spiritual nutrition
from the Words of God in the Bible for nourishment of their souls, they would rather “DIALOGUE” and talk sweet to each other whilst they lay down their doctrinal differences and come together on their mutual
ERRORS, They don’t want to hear MEN PREACH about the
Prescious Blood of Christ which is THE ONLY THING THAT
WILL WASH AWAY THEIR FILTHY STINKING SINS. They seem to
think, at least the vast majority who have been infected
by the plague of Charismania, that they can LICK OF THEIR OWN SINS WITH THEIR OWN SENSUAL FLESHY TONGUES.
They don’t want hear PREACHING ABOUT HELL and The LAKE OF FIRE and get their sins washed away in the BLOOD OF
CHRIST. They would rather go to a charismatic carnival
under a big top circus set up to watch women Hastala shuandai didiaya dea shalaroosa boobowaseeia blah, blah,
blah, They want to sing jazzed up jungle music off of a
projector screen or a newfangled FLAT SCREEN TV set up in what they call a church. They don’t want to hear
the truth, they would rather see women falling out in the floor maybe so they can look up her dress. They
like DANCING in the CHURCH to rock music and all kinds
nonsense. They would rather go to a place where all this nonsense is taking place and pay someone when the
plate comes around for telling them what they want to
hear. It is disgraceful, shameful, and blasphemous.
I love Jesus Christ and my brothers and sisters in Christ, but I hate this old world more every day that
goes by and I want to GO HOME. This world IS NOT MY
HOME. I hope Jesus comes for his children soon. I have
witnessed with my own eyes ENOUGH PERVERSION in the
churches.
Timothy was not instructed to”DIALOGUE” with anyone,
neither have I been.
I HATE the Charismatic Movement, and at least I am honest enough to admit it.
@ Riley
You said:
Prophecy, visions, dreams, the Spirit speaking to people: All these forms of revelation from God are spoken of in the Bible. It frankly doesn’t make sense that these forms of revelation seen in the Bible would be excluded by the completion of the Bible. Surely the sufficiency of the scriptures includes all of the things written in the scriptures.
1) I don’t think that’s a very fair argument, as you know that no cessastionist (CS) would claim that those forms of revelation did not exist before the closing of the canon. Every form of revelation in the Bible is by definition before the closing of the Bible.
2) You also said
This legitimate and accurately fulfilled prophecy by a recognized NT prophet still didn’t get included in the text of the scripture.
The idea that all prophecy is equal to scripture and should be added to the Bible is unsupportable. The Bible itself does not include even legitimate prophecies.
Now, you’re missing the point if you think CS think that every prophecy has to be included in the Bible. Would you say Jesus’ words are equiv. to the authority of Scripture – Yes! But John says they were not included b/c it would just be way too long!
What you haven’t shown, and what I think Agabus has is that his prophecies are indeed on the level of Scripture – 100% true 100% from God.
There is no difference in authority or veracity from any of Agabus’ prophecies and the Scripture.
They’re not in the Bible b/c they don’t have to be b/c the Scriptures are sufficient a la 2 Tim 3:16
In fact, aside from little verses that mention prophecy 1 Thess 5:12 “do not despise prophetic utterances” (which I believe is twisted by charismatics) every other prophecy in the Bible is fully equiv. to the revelation that is written down in the Bible. Find me one clear prophcy (don’t try Acts 21
) where you can show me that it wasn’t. Remember in Deut the pronouncement was death for prophecy that was wrong. Do you still hold to that? Of course not, you cannot.
Robert,
Sorry for my delay in replying to the last comment you directed to me. This weekend was an incredibly busy time, so I have not had opportunity to interact on this thread as I would have liked. Lord willing, we will continue this discussion more next week—-as I plan to write a post or two directly addressing some of what we’ve talked about here.
I appreciate the distinction you are making between historical/external arguments for the closing of the canon, and the internal/exegetical arguments from Scripture itself. At the same time, I don’t think the four arguments I gave are entirely (or even primarily) external arguments.
(1) Apostolic authority is derived from the self-testimony of Scripture. Hebrews 1:1–2 indicates that what God first revealed through the Old Testament, He has now revealed through His Son. In John 14:26, Christ authorized His apostles to lead the church, promising them that the Helper would come and bring to their remembrance all that Jesus had taught them. The instruction they gave the church, then, was really an extension of Jesus’ ministry, as enabled by the Holy Spirit. The apostles were foundational to the church (Eph. 2:20), a foundation which included their teaching (Eph. 3:5-6). Those in the early church generally understood their instruction as authoritative and as being on par with the OT Scriptures (cf. 1 Thess. 2:13; 1 Cor. 14:37; Gal. 1:9; 2 Pet. 3:16).
(2) Universal acceptance should be expected in an age in which the Holy Spirit is illumining the minds of His people, drawing them all to affirm the same books as canonical (cf. 1 Cor. 2:10ff). Theologically, this is known as the “Corporate Internal Testimony” of the Spirit. Practically speaking, universal acceptance was based on the fact that early Christians understood such new revelation would come from an authoritative source (per #1) and would be consistent with other revelation (per #4).
(3) Liturgical use is in keeping with Paul’s description of the Old Testament Scriptures (2 Tim. 3:16–17), of which his writings, and those of the rest of the New Testament, were considered an extension of (cf. 2 Pet. 3:15–16). Many other passages could be added to show the practical and pastoral nature of the biblical writings.
(4) Consistency of message is something we would expect if God is the author of all of Scripture (2 Pet. 1:20–21), since God cannot contradict Himself. Hence, the Bereans were commended for comparing even apostolic teachings to previous revelation (Acts 17:11; cr. 1 Thess. 5:20-21)
That being said, I would like to come back to your original comment, because I still don’t understand how you can (A) hold dogmatically to a closed canon, and (B) believe there are [capital “A”] Apostles in the church today (in the authoritative sense of someone like the Peter or Paul).
As Wayne Grudem has written in his Systematic Theology, pages 905 – 906:
If, then, there are still apostles in the church today, with the same authority as the New Testament apostles, how could we definitively claim that the canon is closed? I don’t think we can.
But since there are no longer apostles in the church today, and since new inscripurated revelation must be accompanied by apostolic authority and approval, it is not possible to have new inscripturated revelation today. Thus, we can say without question, that the canon is closed and has been since the end of the apostolic age.
Let me know your thoughts.
NB
Uh, would certain people stop shouting by using TOO MANY CAPITALS? I’m getting a headache from all this shouting.
And what’s with the name calling and the KJB stuff (And I thought it was KJV)? I don’t know about you, but the whole “Westboro Baptist” approach to apologetics and teaching looks more like mud slinging than truth slinging.
If you want to talk, sit down. Have a coffee. Read 2 Timothy 2:23-26 and meditate on it:
“Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.”
Tell it like it is and remember that God, not volume, grants “repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth”.
I may agree with some of your conclusions, but your methodology betrays the theology you claim to possess. Yelling shows a high view of self (and your own importance to the communication and understanding of truth) and a low view of God.
Could you make that a decaf?
Armchair Theologian,
Good Point!
“Yelling shows a high view of self… and a low view of God.”
Don’t forget to mention that this shows a person to be irrational and uneducated.
Armchair,
This is a GREAT blog. I really enjoy reading MacArthur and company. I think it has to be one of the best on the net.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
I have truly enjoyed the discussion on this blog to date, and I am benefiting from the contnet and arguments given for and against the cessation of the gifts. There’s just one problem though, it only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole basket, and frankly Brandon has forfeited the rules of engagement.
According to the Pulpit…
“Your comments are welcome here, provided they are courteous in both their content and tone. Anonymous and inappropriate comments will be deleted.”
Please forgive me for refering to the rules of this blog, but this is precicely one of the reasons a lot of people frankly just do not engage in on the discussion, because of this kind of inapptopriate bashing.
I am a Student Ministry pastor here in Alberta, Canada who has come out of the Charismatic movement in the last 7 years, I have seen the false prophecies, I have seen the way Scripture is misquoted, misapplied and misused, I have seen the damage that comes from the prosperity movement, and want absolutely nothing to do with Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copland, Joice Meyer or the likes there of. Not only do I believe that this teaching is dangerous, but I also believe it is deadly!
But with all that said there is still just one problem though! I can’t just explain away the gifts, because the most natural and plain reading of the New Testament doesn’t allow me to. In order to do that my hermenutic has to change in 1Corinthians; and my conscience will not allow me to do that untill I am “exegetically” convinced therof. I know this seems to be overly simplified, but I believe I speak for most of us “mildly charismatic” types out there.(please help me guys?)
So here’s the deal Brandon, please don’t damn me to hell because I am trying whole heartedly to “exegete” the Scriptures right and be true to my conscience that Cessation, at this point, just doesn’t seem to cut it for me. We are not heretics, just trying to be faithful to the inerrent Word of God.
Oh, and by the way I have never heard a ‘mildy charismatic’ person ever call Cessation a heresy. Just a thought.
In Christ…
Reformed Albertan
The names you mentioned… Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer,
Kenneth Copeland, is by far a very incomplete list
of the “fruit” of the “charismatic movement”, but
nevertheless they are FRUIT of that movement, and a good
tree doesn’t bring forth good and bad fruit. Thank you
for bringing up their names as they are inseperable from
from the charismatic movement as they are the cream of the crop of a movement which the Holy Scripture claims
foams out its shame (JUDE 13,14) READ IT and WEEP.
The TRUTH does not always feeeeeel good and is expected
by those of us who BELIEVE THE BOOK to be very offensive
indeed to the enemies of the cross of Christ whose god
is their belly and whose glory is in their shame. It IS
a shame for a woman to speak in the church, and charism-atics do glory in such shameful misbehavior.
Amen!
As far as yelling is concerned, my old computer doesn’t
display italicised letters with which to emphasize words
so I have only the option to CAPITIZE the words which I would like to place emphasis. Such is not yelling, but rather doing the best I can with which God has so graciously blessed me with.
To the charismatics: Any one who refutes your heresy,
you will subtly attempt to portray as unkind, uncharitable, unloving.
To the cessationists: we should seek out the old paths
(Jeremiah 6:16, 2nd Corinthians 6:16) and walk therein.
We cannot walk together with charismatics.
Amos 3:4
” Can two walk together, except they be agreed?”
1st Corinthians 14:33
” For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.”
As far as the charismatic claim that I am breaking the rules of this forum……….That really bothers you,
but your breaking the commandments of the Lord Jesus
Christ(1st Corinthians 14:32-38) GRIEVES the Holy Spirit
much more than it does me.
Now, DO NOT RESPOND TO ME, go back to last post of
Nate B and respond to his comments.
Mr. Nate B. :
Thanks for your illustration Sir. Your comments in your last post are very much appreciated by me, and
cannot be refuted. Perhaps that is why the charismatics
chose to attack me rather than respond your weighty
comments.
Reformed Albertan,
I find myself in close to the same spot as you. However, I come from a non-charismatic background.
Today’s charismatics are just plainly disobedient to Scripture on the whole. Not each one, but most. Yet, the Scripture forbids forbidding the gifts. What to do, what to do.
May I suggest reading my comments and those of Steve Lamm. We both have decided, that neither pushing nor forbidding the gifts are safe bets if obedience to Scripture is the goal (and it had better be!) So if you simply make the “gifted ones” strictly obey the Scripture (there’s a thought) then tongues speakers will not be allowed to speak more than a couple times in a service and they will have to have an interpretter. And the “prophet” will have to demonstrate that he got his “word” objectively from God (not a feeling)and he will have to be infallible or be excommunicated. If you simply enforce these biblical commands, the frauds (and most are) leave and take their sin with them.
Three more tips on the tongues folks. First, listen for specific sounds. All languages have specific sounds not present in other languages. For instance, Hebrew does not have the “CH” sound as in “choo choo train.” If you never hear non-English sounds your’re dealing with a fraud. Second, stand and speak a verse memorized in another language. Every time I’ve experienced this the interpretter has come up with hogwash. The interpretter is a fraud. Third, keep the folks reminded of I Cor. 12:7-11. Glossalalians often say that tongues is the sure sign of sanctification or the filling by the Spirit and that everyone should be doing it. That passage puts the lie to that sort of thing.
Simply enforce the biblical tests and standards and you’ll be fine. You don’t have to deny or quench the Spirit. In fact, you’ll be obeying the Word of the Spirit, something most charismatics should try.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
Reformed Albertan,
Just another quick thought. If these biblical standards and tests were in place and used, there would be no Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, or Pat Robertson disgracing the name of Christ.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
Amen to that!!
I see no problem at all with your position to not stiffle the working of the gifts as God may Sovereignly bestow, but according to 1 Corinthians 14:29, they are ALWAYS open to testing and ought to be tested the moment they are spoken in the assembly. And just as a side note, I think those who test ought to be biblically trained men (ie. Elders) who have through much labor discerned how to rightfully divide the Scriptures.
Like you say, if this is being done, then the the church is protecting itself from wrong destructive heresies, and those ‘manifestations of the Spirit’ that are in line with the Holy Scriptures are then truly edifying.
In Christ…
Reformed Albertan,
Glad if that confirms truth already known or adds to. I was glad to see Steve’s encouragement to me. It confirmed to me that I was not crazy. I’ve not heard or read this taught to my memory.
On the testing, Deuteronomy 18 says that all the congregation should do the testing of the prophet. And the Bereans were commended for testing Paul. Yes, the more spiritual should take the lead, but we are all responsible to test. And the tests are not all that technical.
And one thing, too. After rereading my second to last post, I have to say I need to be more gracious. Some charismatics are very wonderful folks who are sincerely wrong. The leaders, though, need to become obedient.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
1st Corinthians 12:11-17 59 AD
tongues IS mentioned in vs 10
Romans 12 60 AD, 60 AD, 60 AD MOVING FORWARD IN TIME.
There is absolutely NO MENTION of TONGUES and ask yourself WHY? God is not the author of confusion.
Ephesians 4:11-17 64 AD,{[( 64 AD)]} Moving forward in time, ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION OF TONGUES, ask yourself
WHY?, since God IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION. Tongues
NEVER WAS for the PERFECTING of the ministry,
Tongues was a SIGN for UNBELIEVING Jews UNDER THE LAW
who required SIGNS to authenticate that God was the
author of something they had better believe.
Tongues was a SIGN-Gift which gradually dissappeared as
the “tongues” in 1st Corinthians 13 was prophesied to
CEASE, and according the knowledge of facts which can
only be ascertained from the Holy Scriptures, they did
CEASE due to the fact that looking at the Holy Sriptures
in a chronoogical perspective they are no longer mentioned in the Holy Scriptures.
As the New Testament Church moved forward in time and
the Cannon of Scripture is closed, the Body of Christ
has a BOOK called the Holy Bible for centuries until
1901 AD, no one is babbling in tongues.
The Great Outpouring of a “spirit” since 1901 is the
“FALLING AWAY” that Bible Believing Christians are
clearly warned to have no fellowship with, BUT WE ARE
TO REPROVE THEM. The word reprove is more at SCOLD.
Ephesians 5:9-11(READ IT). Then look up “reprove” in the
Websters New Ninth Collegiate dictionary and LOOK at
#1.
Phil,
You said: “Today’s charismatics are just plainly disobedient to Scripture on the whole. Not each one, but most.”
This is the biggest mistake cessationist make about continuationist, you think we are all the same in belief and practice.
True Reformed Charismatics deny any association with such names as Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Hagin, Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar, T.D. Jakes et al. We believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of Scripture and the sufficiency thereof. We adhere to the major creeds and catechisms of the early church (i.e. Apostle’s, Nicene, Athanasian, Westminster, Baptist Faith and Message, et al).
The only difference between you and me is that you believe the sign gifts have ceased, I do not. I stand against anyone who claims to have a gift or be a prophet and does not subject themselves to the Scripture.
Brandon,
You make many outrageous statements without any biblical support. May I suggest that you do more Bible study and less charismatic bashing. This sight serves to promote fruitful and beneficial discussion on theological issues. We are seeking to grow in grace in the Lord Jesus here. If you cannot present your case appropriately and accurately with a Christian attitude then please find somewhere else to propogate your prejudice. Do you believe that only cessationists are true Christians? Are all continuationist going to hell? Where is your scriptural support? Frankly, I’m not at all impressed by your constant twisting of the Scriptures and continual lack of respect for those who are honestly seeking biblical truth here.
CBX,
You quoted me as saying, “Today’s charismatics are just plainly disobedient to Scripture on the whole. Not each one, but most.” Then you told me not to put all charismatics in the same bucket.
So go back and reread the last five words of the very quote you cited and think about it.
Then you said, “The only difference between you and me is that you believe the sign gifts have ceased, I do not.”
Wrong again. Reread.
In Christ,
Phil Perkins.
Phil,
Oops! I apologize, apparently I was reading you wrong.
However, I do believe my statement was right in regards to the way most cessationist view most charismatic believers. Would you agree with that? As soon as you say you believe in the continuity of spiritual gifts all of a sudden you’re viewed as some ‘charismaniac’. Or even worse, you’re viewed as a hell bound heretic if you encounter certain people who have some kind of ‘Westboro-blogger-jihadist’ attitude.
CBX:
My previous post did list some scripturally pertinant
FACTS derived from careful and studios reverence toward
Holy Writ, which is most definately beneficial for the
spiritual growth of brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus
my risen Lord and Eternal Savior.
God(1st John 5:7) undoubetdly thought so little of the
“tongues” that he never did mention it again in the
Holy Scriptures after Jesus Christ inspired Paul to write the SHARP REBUKE of 1st Corinthians 14 to the
most CARNAL lot in the scriptures, IN the Scriptures.
59AD.
Now, That we have a copy of the Holy Scriptures in their completed form, we can CLEARLY SEE that sometime
after 59-64 AD TONGUES CEASED,
NO mention of tongues in 60 AD as a gift of the spirit
Romans 12.
No mention of tongues in Ephesians 4 64 AD.
No further mention of tongues as a gift after 59 AD
in the Bible, but of course we can go outside of the
scriptures and find,…Edward Irving(Sodomite), move
a tad further in time , Aime Sample Mc Phereson,
Agnes Oznam, Branham etc, etc.., then a Believer reads
everything by the scriptures, axamines the doctrines
of such to the Light of the Holy Scriptures and simply
JUDGE.
EASY AS PIE
CBX,
No prob, My Brother!
Phil Perkins.
Reformed Charismatics claim no association with the above mentioned names (Branham, Ozman, Irving). There are many solid Bible preachers throughout history and today (Grudem, Piper, Mahaney, et al) who are hold to Reformed traditions and are either charismatic or open but cautious.
As far as no mention of tongues being made in the latter epistles to the church. That doesn’t prove anything. There is also no mention of the Lord’s Supper, should we then assume that that has ceased as well? Regardless of what most cessationists say there is absolutely no Scripture to clearly support the cessation of the gifts. All that is left is just subjective interpretations.
In Christ,
Chris
There is a person participating in this forum who claims
to be a Charismatic Baptist and also claims to hold to
the “Apostles Creed”.
Well, the “Apostles Creed” is ROMAN CATHOLIC and bears
the colors of Scarlet and Purple. The Apostles Creed
promotes the false doctrine of Apostolic Succession,
doesn’t it ?
He is condemned by his own words.
Go back and read all the comments beginning with the first page containing 109 total comments and see if you can figure out who he is and you will also be able to
what he is up to.
God bless the brothers and sisters in Christ who love
Jesus Christ in sincerity and truth.
From a no good(Romans 3:12) sorry old saved sinner
(1st Timothy 1:15).
sincerely, Brandon
” As far as no mention of tongues being made in the lat-ter epistles to the church. That doesn’t prove anything.
There is also no mention of the Lords Supper, should we
then assume that has ceased as well? Regardless of what
most cessationisists say there is absloutely no Scripture to clearly support the cessation of gifts.
All that is left is subjective interpretations.”
That comment is preposterous.
Now,….as far as the “Lords Supper” is concerned, The
Holy Scriptures didn’t contain a prophecy fortelling that the “Lords Supper” would cease. The Holy Scriptures
do contain a prophecy fortelling of the cessation of the
SIGN-gift of TONGUES. The Holy Scriptures DO PROVE that
no further mention of tongues was made by God, Jesus
Christ, The Holy Spirit, Paul, Peter, Timothy, James, Jude, or anyone else IN THE SCRIPTURES after 59 AD to
anyone else IN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES after 59 other than the Church which WAS at Corinth who happened to be the
WORST example to follow.
Why not follow a better example than Corinth, like
Ephesus or Philippi where there was absolutely no mention of tongues in the respective letters God
inspired Paul to write to the Saints in Ephesus and
Philippi, and the The Church was actually commended
by Jesus Christ himself for trying those who said they were apostles and were NOT, but were actually LIARS.
Revelation 2:2 96 AD.
Under the topic ” A Couple of Key Questions”, dated
Jan. 11 2007, 109 comments exist. Scroll down to the
54th comment and examine the comment slowly, look for
words CREEDS, and watch out for the Cathecisms.
Baptists DO NOT hold to the Apostles Creed or any
Cathecism.
Adolph Hitler and Eugenio Pacelli who later changed his
name to Pope Pius XII, both held to the Apostles Creed
didn’t they?
Don’t forget that letter ” 1st Clement” that ROME
is in posession of, that if it could be proven true, Corinth yoked up with the that which remains intact
the Roman Catholic Church BEFORE the first century
AD. Go read(Rev 17:5 MOTHER OF HARLOTS)(1st Corinthians
verse 15 HARLOT, verse 16 HARLOT again).
Seems as though the error of Corinth who had a strange
fascination with strange fire of tongues didn’t want to
let go of something Paul said would CEASE. There was
some other ” apostles” who beleived in apostolic
sucession(Galatians 5:8),(2nd Corinthians 11:11-15),
(Galatians 2:4,4,6)(2nd Corinthians 11:4, Galatians 1:
6-9). These men believed in “Apostolic succession”,
these men could counterfiet or mimick the “signs of
an apostle”, one of which was speaking in tongues.
The spiritual ancestors of the evil men remain in tact
today as the Roman Catholic Church. Therefore it should come as no great surprise to me that 99.9% of the
glosallalia crew have ecumenical relations with the
old mother of harlots TODAY, remaining one tenth of one
percent who are not attached to her by the ecumenical
umbilical cord, but are attached to her by continuing
to further her error, and refusal to PREACH against
her. Remember John The Baptist, he was beheaded because
he OFFENDED a WOMAN who could not stand to hear and
believe THE TRUTH.
Why if we are in the last of the last days, are the
VAST MAJORITY of those who call themselves christian
speaking in tongues, when such was mostly unheard of
for almost 2000 years?
2nd Thes 2:7-12,
Go read Revelation 17:8
PRAY ABOUT IT ERNESTLY
and dont forget about those unclean spirits LIKE frogs
in Revelation 16:13,14. A frog has a long TONGUE with
which it catches its “prey”. The Dragon, Beast, and
False Prophet also have their own “tongues”,
Now read the Revelation 16:13-14, in its context and LOOK at the
WORLD around you coming against ISRAEL.
Just Think about it!
Do you want to be one of the NAKED, found wearing a
“tongue” in place of a figleaf?
Covet the best gifts, when tongues was on the list and
IT AIN’T NO MORE, it was toward the very bottom of the
list. Satan has since then laid his hands on tongues
and brought them back to life.
Corinth and Rome before the END of the 1 st century.
Clement was connected to ALEXANDRIA.
Alexandria is in EGYPT.
Egypt is in AFRICA.
Africa is the DARK CONTINENT.
Witch Doctors in Africa speak in tongues too!
Once again, you have managed to make claims for which you have no support. What’s more preposterous, turning your arguement around on you and applying the same principle to the Lord’s Supper? Or, building an entire doctrine on one scripture in 1 Co. 13 and making crazy assumptions? The Bible says tongues will cease, it doesn’t say when. It also says knowledge will be done away with and prophecy will fail. When does this occur?
“Baptists DO NOT hold to the Apostles Creed or any
Cathecism.”
WHAT! Are you kidding me? Haven’t you ever heard of The New Hampshire Baptist Confession (1833)? Or how about the Baptist Faith and Message (1963)? Not to mention a dozen other creeds and confessions (Westminster, Chicago Statement,et al). You say I’m not a Baptist because I believe in the continuity of spiritual gifts. It’s obvious who is and isn’t the real Baptist here. You don’t even know about the confessions and statement WE Baptist hold to.
“Adolph Hitler and Eugenio Pacelli who later changed his name to Pope Pius XII, both held to the Apostles Creed didn’t they?”
Uhh… NO! It’s common knowledge that Hitler was an atheistic communist. The Apostles Creed was compiled long before the apostate Roman Church was formed. Anyone who claims to hold to the creed and kills millions of Jews is obviously a blatant liar. The Creed itself is simply a statement of the universal acceptance of the essential doctrines of Christianity. Go back and read it. Anyone with eyes that can see and a brain that works can see that.
Give me scripture! Not mutilated interpretations and questionable history. If you do not have any Biblical Support for your claims other than something you read out of a charismatic bashing book or a fictional Gail Riplinger book then there is no point in discussing this issue any further.
God Bless and peace in Christ.
One more thing The ” Apostles Creed” says not one word
about “IN THE SCRIPTURES” or ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES
either does it( 1st Corinthians 15:1-4 KJB)
(2nd Cor 11 vs 4),( Galatians 1:6-9).
DOES IT?
The Baptists did not hold to the Apostle’s Creed.
Obadiah Holmes did not believe in what charismatics
call speaking in tongues either did he?.
Bob Jones Sr., couldn’t be fooled by those who claim to
speak in tongues and prophecy either could he.
John Wesley DID NOT speak in charismatic tongues either
did he?, not until a bunch of lying charismatics appear
and start LYING about church History.
D.L. Moody didn’t speak in tongues either, did he?
Billy Sunday didn’t beleive in speaking in tongues
either did he.
The Group of people who claim to speak in tongues have
a long recorded of SEX sins following their” annointed ”
elders, Don’t they?
John R. Rice couldn’t be fooled by the Charismatics
either, could he?
I would reccomend to any one reading to go look up John R. Rice on the internet and read what he had to say
about the Charismatic Movement, and TONGUES.
ADOLPH HITLER WAS A PRACTICING OBEDIENT BAPTISED AND
CONFIRMED ROMAN CATHOLIC WHO WAS NEVER EXCOMMUNICATED
FROM THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. FACT.
He admitted while murdering the Jews that he was only
carrying out that which the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH had
been doing for doing to the Jews for centuries.
Read the “Vaticans Holocaust” and “Vietnam, why did
we go” written by Arvo Manhattan online for free at
Chic Publications.
BYE, BYE, no more pearls for the pigs.
Those Baptists that were a part of “New Hampshire
Baptist Confession didn’t call or make reference to
as a “creed” or “Apostles Creed” either did they?
They were already aware of who used such terminology
as…creed… crusade… cathecisms…., etc,. The
name they chose for their declaration of faith was far removed as they could keep it from the chosen terminoligy
of Rome.
They didn’t believe in speaking in tongues either, did
they?
They didn’t believe in women preachers either, did they?
Of course after the UNholy ghost revival of hell fire
continued to spread from AZUZA ST. , the devil started some charismatic churches and The Devil chose
to call them FULL Gospel Baptist,
but the HOLY BIBLE had warned real Baptists that the
FULL GOSPEL was not to be found IN THE BIBLE. They found out that the FULL Gospel is not the Gospel at all.
They found out that what people were calling the
FULL GOSPEL was what the Bible Called “another gospel”.
(2nd Cor 11:4, Gal. 1:1-9).
They Know none of the ministries God used to bring the
greatest REVIVAL there has ever been “The Great Awakening” believed in speaking in tongues, prophesying
in tongues, nor did they believe in the manifestations
of the charismatic movement.
The early Baptists didn’t even celebrate Christmas, due to the fact that they knew Christmas was not supported
BY THE SCRIPTURES, but was in fact Roman Catholic which
they all were sure was The Great Whore of Rev.17 and 18.
ISN’T THAT TRUE?
Based upon what the early Baptists believed Billy Graham
would be branded an Arch Heritic, or heck..they might
have even delivered Billy Graham, and Jack Van Impe to
Satan For the dustruction of the flesh, LIKE Paul did
Hymaneous and Philetus.
But, we know for sure the Baptist throughout history
were not tongues babblers.
They Charismatics didn’t fool Lester Roloff either,
did they?
J.Frank Norris didn’t believe in speaking in tongues
either did he?
Spurgeon did not believe speaking in tongues was for
his days or the days to come after him, did he ?
D.L. Moody didn’t believe in speaking in tongues either,
did he?
The men listed above God sealed them with the Holy
Spirit and empowered them to PREACH the Gospel of the
Grace of God, and win lost souls to Jesus Christ so
Jesus Christ could save their souls. The Holy Spirit
Jesus Christ empowered these men with saw no need
for “tongues” in these men he used to HIS OWN GLORY.
The Holy Spirit didn’t convince their converts that
they should “speak in tongues” either, did he?
Well God just simply is not the author of confusion
unless we apply this concept to Genesis 11, When God
the Father, God The Son, God the Holy Spirit confounded
and CONFUSED people with whom he was very displeased
with TONGUES.
Imagine THAT!
That was a great out pouring of the Holy Spirit.
” Go to, let US go down, and there confound their
language, that they may not understand one another’s
speech.”
The US can be found in 1st John 5:7.
God in that instance used tongues to STRONGLY DELUDE
people with whom he was very sore displeased.
God promised to send some DELUSION again in 2nd Thes 2
vs 11 and I am convinced that charismatic tongues is
exactly that.
I am not a polished or eloquent speaker. I am only a sorry old blood washed undeserving saved sinner.
I realise I probably rub some people the wrong way
because of my lack of eloquence, and inarticulate
grammar, lack of spelling skills and many other criticisms which which could be legitimately leveled
against me, but I have to just trust the Grace of God
on those shortcomings. So, to the real brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ please forgive me for the things I have said which have offended you.
The things I have said I have said with a greater
Love for the Savior Jesus Christ and for the LOVE
of HIS WORDS.
See Ya there, when we meet him in the air.
God Bless
You had best remember those unclean spirits LIKE frogs
which are the spirits of DEVILS WORKING MIRACLES the next time you hear a deluded charismatic talk about
“the miraculous power of speaking in tongues”, when the
HOLY BIBLE itself makes no mention of Biblical tongues
IN THE SCRIPTURES as being miraculous.
There are no cloven “tongues of fire” in a King James
Holy bible in Acts of The Apostles 2:3.
“LIKE AS OF FIRE”
The Perverted bibles OMITTED that that word LIKE in order to make their FAKE bibles line up the ROMAN
CATHOLIC DARKNESS.
When Paul wrote 1 st Corinthians 13:1, the verse
charismatics wrest to their own destruction as they
grab that verse and exclaim……
” See there, Paul said I speak with tongues of angels”
Paul said no such thing! Paul used the word ” THOUGH “,
LIKE “even if I did”.
VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: The Angel of the Lord, made Balaam’s ass speak to Balaam in a
LANGUAGE(tongue) Balaam could understand. There was
no unintelligable gibberish(vain babbling) being emitted from the mouth of Balaam’s ass requiring an
interpreter.
You had better think about that.
When God sent his angels to tell Lot and his get out of
town and dont look back, Lot could converse with those
angels in the SAME LANGUAGE he was born, not some language of unintelligable exstatic incomprehensible
(vain babbling)requiring an interpreter.
You had batter think about that too!
When Paul said….
“Though I speak with men and angels and have not charity, I am become as a sounding brass, or a
tinkling symbol.”
HE ALSO SAID IN THE NEXT VERSE
“And THOUGH I have the gift of prophecy, and understand
all mysteries, and all knowledge; that I could remove
mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.”
Is there any record of Paul moving a literal mountain with his faith?
ANSWER: NO
HE ALSO SAID IN THE NEXT VERSE
“And THOUGH I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and
THOUGH I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.”
ASK YOURSELF
Is there record IN THE SCRIPTURES that Paul gave
everything he owned to be sold to feed the poor?
ANSWER: NO
Is there any record IN THE SCRIPTURES that Paul gave his body to be burned?
ANSWER: NO
You can point these things out to charismatics and
they will get mad, and tell you that………….
“You just don’t understand”, or “You had better be careful, you are blaspheming the Hooooooooooly Ghost.”
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Jesus Christ
we know that CHARITY….
1st Corinthians 13:6
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the TRUTH.
When a charismatic rejoices in lying about those scriptures(1st Corinthians 13:1-3 most esp verse 1),
ask yourself is that CHARITY, or is it REJOICING IN
INIQUITY? (Matthew 7:21-23, 2nd Thes. 2:7).
God Bless
Correction
Though I speak with tongues of men and angels, and have
not charity, I am become as a sounding brass, or a
tinkling symbol.
THOUGH I speak with tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as a sounding brass, or a tinkling symbol.
And though I have the gift of prophecy , and understand
all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all
faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not
charity, I am nothing.
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and
though I give my body to be burnred, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Sure those words are demonstrative of CHARITY(TRUE
CHRISTIAN LOVE), but they also are demonstrative of
healthy Christian sarcasm.
Amen !