Comments on: Prophecy and the Closed Canon (Part 2) http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/ A Ministry of Shepherds' Fellowship Sun, 01 Mar 2009 19:54:00 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Scott Tomlinson http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-13340 Scott Tomlinson Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:30:38 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/#comment-13340 J Piper recently claimed that he heard the voice of God...he published, The Morning I Heard the Voice of God. It begins, Let me tell you about a most wonderful experience I had early Monday morning, March 19, 2007, a little after six o’clock. God actually spoke to me. There is no doubt that it was God. I heard the words in my head just as clearly as when a memory of a conversation passes across your consciousness. The Morning I Heard the Voice of God. http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TasteAndSee/ByDate/2007/2021_The_Morning_I_Heard_the_Voice_of_God/ J Piper recently claimed that he heard the voice of God…he published,

The Morning I Heard the Voice of God. It begins,

Let me tell you about a most wonderful experience I had early Monday morning, March 19, 2007, a little after six o’clock. God actually spoke to me. There is no doubt that it was God. I heard the words in my head just as clearly as when a memory of a conversation passes across your consciousness.

The Morning I Heard the Voice of God.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TasteAndSee/ByDate/2007/2021_The_Morning_I_Heard_the_Voice_of_God/

]]> By: Phil Perkins http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-7759 Phil Perkins Sat, 10 Feb 2007 03:11:43 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/#comment-7759 Steve Lamm, Good ironic point. In Christ, Phil Perkins. Steve Lamm,
Good ironic point.

In Christ,
Phil Perkins.

]]> By: Puritan Lad http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-7681 Puritan Lad Fri, 09 Feb 2007 13:20:46 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/#comment-7681 Robert, You missed the point. 1 Corithians 14 was written (obviously) before the close of the canon. There was no New Testament for these believers, at least as a complete canon. The point is that biblical prophecy is a Word from the Lord. The Lord is directly speaking through the mouth of the prophet. <i>"...And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him."</i> (Deuteronomy 18:18) This being the case, the words of the prophet carried the same weight as Scripture does today. They were words directly from the mouth of God. With the close of the canon, this type of revelation is no longer needed. We have all the Words of the Lord that we will ever need, and they are to be found only in the Holy writ. Robert,

You missed the point. 1 Corithians 14 was written (obviously) before the close of the canon. There was no New Testament for these believers, at least as a complete canon.

The point is that biblical prophecy is a Word from the Lord. The Lord is directly speaking through the mouth of the prophet.

“…And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.” (Deuteronomy 18:18)

This being the case, the words of the prophet carried the same weight as Scripture does today. They were words directly from the mouth of God. With the close of the canon, this type of revelation is no longer needed. We have all the Words of the Lord that we will ever need, and they are to be found only in the Holy writ.

]]> By: Robert Ivy http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-7663 Robert Ivy Fri, 09 Feb 2007 08:44:51 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/#comment-7663 Puritan Lad (and John MacArthur for that matter), The revelation of Scripture is unique among all revelation. It is not simply inerrant, infallible, authoritative prophecy, as you put it. The Bible carries a specific story line and makes specific (and sufficient!) points - it is not, according to itself, an exhaustive volume of every inerrant, infallible, authoritative word from God (John 21:25, with further examples if you like). To wit, Scripture makes it clear that it is <i>above</i> inerrant, infallible, authoritative prophecy. 1 Cor 14:37 says, "If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord." Those who <i>think</i> they are prophets of course include those who are <i>actually</i> prophets. And Paul tells these inspired prophets to "acknowledge that the things I am writing (a.k.a. Scripture)... are a command of the Lord." Clearly then, Scripture is greater and higher than Biblical prophecy. Furthermore, there is no need, Scripturally, to believe that the writing of Scripture is anything like prophecy or any of the other charismatic gifts. I think it is significant that Scripture <i>never</i> mentions the inspiration of Scripture as a sort of gift to be had. I hope that makes sense and clears up your problem with the charismatic position on modern-day revelation. Robert Puritan Lad (and John MacArthur for that matter),

The revelation of Scripture is unique among all revelation. It is not simply inerrant, infallible, authoritative prophecy, as you put it. The Bible carries a specific story line and makes specific (and sufficient!) points – it is not, according to itself, an exhaustive volume of every inerrant, infallible, authoritative word from God (John 21:25, with further examples if you like).

To wit, Scripture makes it clear that it is above inerrant, infallible, authoritative prophecy. 1 Cor 14:37 says, “If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.”

Those who think they are prophets of course include those who are actually prophets. And Paul tells these inspired prophets to “acknowledge that the things I am writing (a.k.a. Scripture)… are a command of the Lord.”

Clearly then, Scripture is greater and higher than Biblical prophecy.

Furthermore, there is no need, Scripturally, to believe that the writing of Scripture is anything like prophecy or any of the other charismatic gifts. I think it is significant that Scripture never mentions the inspiration of Scripture as a sort of gift to be had.

I hope that makes sense and clears up your problem with the charismatic position on modern-day revelation.

Robert

]]> By: sarah http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-7662 sarah Fri, 09 Feb 2007 07:41:54 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/#comment-7662 Nate, wouldn't you agree that because of the various greek meanings of prophecy, not all of prophecy has ceased. For instance, in 1Cor. 12&13 the greek definition is to publicly proclaim a truth or in other words preaching of God's Word. In other sections of the Bible, OT and NT, hand-picked men of God received revelations from God and wrote them down (the Bible) and also proclaimed them. Wouldn't it just be the later that has ceased and not necessarily the former? I do believe God gives certain men the gift of proclaiming and teaching His Word. Also, the OT and Acts says the the young men and women will prophesy have vision etc in the last days which are yet to come. Because new revelation has ceased, don't you believe that the prophesying going on here in the last days is a great multitude of people proclaiming His truths and not the receiving of new info? If so, then I believe this certain type of prophesying, which is a gift, carries through until the end. Nate, wouldn’t you agree that because of the various greek meanings of prophecy, not all of prophecy has ceased. For instance, in 1Cor. 12&13 the greek definition is to publicly proclaim a truth or in other words preaching of God’s Word. In other sections of the Bible, OT and NT, hand-picked men of God received revelations from God and wrote them down (the Bible) and also proclaimed them. Wouldn’t it just be the later that has ceased and not necessarily the former? I do believe God gives certain men the gift of proclaiming and teaching His Word. Also, the OT and Acts says the the young men and women will prophesy have vision etc in the last days which are yet to come. Because new revelation has ceased, don’t you believe that the prophesying going on here in the last days is a great multitude of people proclaiming His truths and not the receiving of new info? If so, then I believe this certain type of prophesying, which is a gift, carries through until the end.

]]> By: Whyte Stonne http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-7656 Whyte Stonne Fri, 09 Feb 2007 05:38:27 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/#comment-7656 Speaking of the authority of The Twelve, I wonder if there are any fragments of The Gospel of Judas mouldering in the archives of the Vatican library. Or perhaps in a bricked off closet in the dry Sinai desert somewhere. I wonder how authoritative it would be. Frankly, I'd settle for an epistle. Speaking of the authority of The Twelve, I wonder if there are any fragments of The Gospel of Judas mouldering in the archives of the Vatican library. Or perhaps in a bricked off closet in the dry Sinai desert somewhere.

I wonder how authoritative it would be.

Frankly, I’d settle for an epistle.

]]> By: Nate B. http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-7649 Nate B. Fri, 09 Feb 2007 02:26:27 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/#comment-7649 Riley, Thanks for your response. It seems, from your comment, that you believe the office of apostle is still in operation today. If so, would you also say that today's apostles are essentially equivalent (in office) to the Twelve or the apostle Paul? I am curious if this is your position because it would be a key point of departure. The cessationist will argue that the office of "apostle" (in the specific sense of a directly-appointed representative of the resurrected Christ--such as Paul) has ceased. This, then, serves as a precedent (in principle) for the fact that other offices (and the gifts associated with those offices) will cease. Thanks again for your willingness to interact. - NB Riley,

Thanks for your response. It seems, from your comment, that you believe the office of apostle is still in operation today.

If so, would you also say that today’s apostles are essentially equivalent (in office) to the Twelve or the apostle Paul?

I am curious if this is your position because it would be a key point of departure. The cessationist will argue that the office of “apostle” (in the specific sense of a directly-appointed representative of the resurrected Christ–such as Paul) has ceased. This, then, serves as a precedent (in principle) for the fact that other offices (and the gifts associated with those offices) will cease.

Thanks again for your willingness to interact.
- NB

]]> By: Puritan Lad http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-7648 Puritan Lad Fri, 09 Feb 2007 02:06:33 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/#comment-7648 For my charismatic brothers... What significance is the closong of the canon? It means that special revelation from God has ceased. The only type of prophecy given in scripture is inerrant, infallible, and authoritative. Prophets become the mouthpiece of God, and errors are not allowed. Their words carry the same weight as the Bible itself. (See Deut. 18:18-22). Therefore, in order to maintain continuing revelation today, there must be some defense of a different, lesser sort of prophecy. I just cannot find this in Scripture. If you can make the case, I'll consider it. God Bless, PL For my charismatic brothers…

What significance is the closong of the canon? It means that special revelation from God has ceased. The only type of prophecy given in scripture is inerrant, infallible, and authoritative. Prophets become the mouthpiece of God, and errors are not allowed. Their words carry the same weight as the Bible itself. (See Deut. 18:18-22).

Therefore, in order to maintain continuing revelation today, there must be some defense of a different, lesser sort of prophecy. I just cannot find this in Scripture. If you can make the case, I’ll consider it.

God Bless,

PL

]]> By: Whyte Stonne http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-7647 Whyte Stonne Fri, 09 Feb 2007 01:30:31 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/#comment-7647 There are a number of "apostles" named in the Greek canon who are not among the Twelve. They are often explained as being evangelists, who would be "messengers" or "sent ones." (I don't have them at my fingertips, sorry.) Authority is not the exclusive, defining element of an apostle. Of course, if an apostolic individual or an apostolic couple are church planters (as was Paul), their understanding of the Christian faith will understandably have more weight with their churches than will the understandings and doctrinal positions of others. There are a number of “apostles” named in the Greek canon who are not among the Twelve. They are often explained as being evangelists, who would be “messengers” or “sent ones.” (I don’t have them at my fingertips, sorry.)

Authority is not the exclusive, defining element of an apostle. Of course, if an apostolic individual or an apostolic couple are church planters (as was Paul), their understanding of the Christian faith will understandably have more weight with their churches than will the understandings and doctrinal positions of others.

]]> By: Riley Brown http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-7645 Riley Brown Fri, 09 Feb 2007 01:00:27 +0000 http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/02/08/prophecy-and-the-closed-canon-part-2/#comment-7645 Hi, Nate, You wrote: When asked, Why would gifts like prophecy cease?, the cessationist will look to passages like Ephesians 2:20, and answer — because, just like the apostles, the role of the prophets was to establish the foundation of the church; and also like the apostles, that role was temporary. I would agree that the role of establishing the foundation of the Church was a temporary role. Paul said, "After all, no one can lay any other foundation than the one that is already laid, and that is Jesus Christ." (ISV) 1Co 3:11 The foundation is already laid. Nothing needs to be added to it. The canon is closed. Most everyone agrees with this. But it still seems obvious that there are other purposes for apostles and prophets as we see in Eph. 4:11-13 that would continue. Yours in Christ, Riley Hi, Nate,

You wrote:
When asked, Why would gifts like prophecy cease?, the cessationist will look to passages like Ephesians 2:20, and answer — because, just like the apostles, the role of the prophets was to establish the foundation of the church; and also like the apostles, that role was temporary.

I would agree that the role of establishing the foundation of the Church was a temporary role.
Paul said, “After all, no one can lay any other foundation than the one that is already laid, and that is Jesus Christ.” (ISV) 1Co 3:11 The foundation is already laid. Nothing needs to be added to it. The canon is closed. Most everyone agrees with this. But it still seems obvious that there are other purposes for apostles and prophets as we see in Eph. 4:11-13 that would continue.

Yours in Christ,
Riley

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