Thanks for your comment.

Cessationists would not assert that the Spirit was poured out on Pentecost and then removed later. Rather we would contend that the miraculous charismatic signs that accompanied the Spirit’s coming were for the apostolic age only.

Cessationists very much believe that the Spirit is still active in the church today. While we do not believe the miraculous phenomena of Pentecost was to be characteristic of the entire church age, we would never suggest that the Spirit Himself is gone or inactive.

Hope that helps.
- NB

Basically what I am saying is that I do not see where in the world the idea that the Spirit may be withdrawn comes from in this passage.

I understand the concept that because cosmic signs do not constitute the whole, supernatural signs may not constitute the whole; my only problem with that is that I do not see the “constitute the whole” paradigm indicated anywhere in this passage or the rest of the Bible for that matter.

It seems to me that the most common-sense paradigm when talking about the pouring out of the Spirit, or anything else God will do, is the “given” paradigm.

When something is given, it is not taken back – that would called a loan. I think the framework of saying the Spirit is poured out and saying that cosmic signs will occur, is that the Spirit is poured out, it is now yours, and the cosmic signs will also occur, but later.

Just think of it as a person saying, “on Christmas I will give you a bike and a book”. If the bike was given Christmas morning yet not the book, one would never become sad and think, “he has given me the bike this morning, but the book will come tonight, that must mean that since I only get the book for part of the day then I only get the bike part of the day.”

That simply does not make sense. The bike is given, it is not to be taken back only because something else comes later. It is the same, as I see it, with Acts 2.

Where in the world do we get the idea that, when something is being poured out, “A doesn’t constitute the whole so B won’t constitute the whole?” To me, it just seems nonsensical. What we should be saying is “A has been poured out, so we have that, B hasn’t happened yet, so we’re expecting that.”

So here’s my guess: I am missing something extremely obvious and just can’t see the forest through the trees. Can someone help me out here? Where do get this paradigm from, other than a desire to demonstrate that the Spirit is gone? Why impose it on this text?

My position is essentially that, “once established, it cannot cease due to the definition of last days.” The charismatic gifts were given at Pentecost, which Peter labeled as the last days. Days after the last days cannot exist (by definition of the word last), therefore the gifts must continue, otherwise the days were not last.

Now, does this mean that the cosmic signs would also have to happen on Pentecost for my interpretation to hold true? No, it just means that once the cosmic signs do occur, they cannot be revoked. Otherwise, as I tried to articulate, the use of the term “last” would be mistaken.

If the charismatic gifts were rescinded that would make Pentecost more like the initial days and the days of the cosmic signs more like the last days. But there is no such split. Pentecost is just as much a last day as Christ’s return is a last day. What happens last is last, it can’t be followed by something different.

For example, say that I was an honest (infallible) man and I was dying and I told a friend, “in my last days I will give everything I own to the poor.” A week later, my friend sees me and all my possessions are gone. I have done what I said I would do! But then a week after that my friend sees me again and I have back the very things I had given away. There is really only one conclusion he could draw: that I got a new lease on life and these are not indeed my last days.

You see by Peter’s (read: God’s) use of the word “last” he prohibits anyone from saying, “what happens now will change later”. If it changes it is not last!

I see your point about the cosmic signs not characterizing the whole therefore perhaps the charismatic signs not characterizing the whole, but I think before we say that “last days” is just another term for “church age” (i.e. a period of time), we should look at the more obvious meaning of “last days” as “the days which are final, conclusive, nothing comes after.”

To say something will be done in the last days (like the giving of the Spirit) then to say it was undone (like the withholding of the Spirit) is to make Peter’s word last meaningless.

I agree that a prophecy could have multiple fulfillment, but I think its unfair to choose that particular one because our Lord deliberately cut the quote in half, so its pretty clear that the latter half it is to come at the end.

So although what you said is technically true, I don’t think it helps a lot in this case b/c the real trouble is why Peter quoted that particular piece as a whole.

Are you more thinking along the terms of the Psalms where they have double fulfillment?

Also,

For the Charismatics here, I have a question. Since the Spirit comes and goes and gives gifts to whomever he pleases – why doesn’t he hook me up w/ some prophecy it really help me out – I’d also really like to learn Japanese. jk

Sorry, for being facetious, but you get my point. Why does He skip over all of us poor cessastionist folk? Seems weird that if a person’s predisposition is to not like it that the Spirit would say “Fine, than you don’t get it.” From the NT it seems like they were given regardless of meriting it so to speak. That just struck me as weird that He would be holding out on us.

-John

Jesus quoted Isa. 61:1-2, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me…” as being fulfilled by his ministry but broke v2 in the middle and stopped quoting before the phrase, “the day of vengeance of our God” because it referred to the end times and was not being fulfilled yet.

You can see from this that a single prophecy can have multiple times of fulfillment. Even within a single verse. This at least shows that there is a possibility of a division in time between the two halves of Joel’s prophecy or the dual fulfillment of them.

I believe what we’re seeing in this scripture from Joel is similar to the two mountain peaks analogy; One is near (Pentecost) and the other farther behind (Day of the Lord). The valley in between the peaks (Church age) cannot be seen. Your assignment, “tell me what’s in the valley in between.” Tough assignment. From what I’ve seen a lot of people just assume whatever answer fits in nicely with their current theological perspective.

I see a lot of people who really want the Gifts of the Spirit to have passed away. They may feel threatened by supernatural manifestations, or feel they lack power to do such things, or as in unknown tongues it seems foolish and they don’t want to do it. I definitely believe that these kind of ideas put a bias in many people’s interpretation.

It really doesn’t matter whether you postulate cessation or continuation. Either way you’re going to have to do a lot a assuming to arrive at that conclusion. There’s a definite lack of textual evidence concerning what’s in between.

I think the comment about there not being more days after the “last days” is an interesting point. It also seems that Peter is saying that the “last days” had now begun. Since the end time signs obviously were not occurring right then Peter must have meant that the last days would continue until all the signs stated had been fulfilled.

About the term “all flesh.” It seems obvious that the day of Pentecost could hardly be considered a complete fulfillment of the Spirit being poured out on “all flesh.” That would seem to indicate that more is to come one way or another. It is interesting to observe that the Gifts of the Spirit are distributed to “every man” (I Cor. 12:7,11). “Every man” could easily be equated with “all flesh.” A distribution of all of the Gifts of the Spirit to “every man” would be a much more complete fulfillment of the first half of Joel’s prophecy than speaking in tongues alone on the day of Pentecost.. Prophecy is included in the Gifts and visions often contain various elements of prophecy, the word of knowledge, the word of wisdom, and discerning of spirits. (Seeing angels, demons, or Jesus would all fall under the category of Discerning of Spirits). So the Gifts of the Spirit can encompass both the prophecy and visions from Joel’s prophecy and the speaking in tongues that occurred on the day of Pentecost.

I would say that this scripture would allow for a continuation throughout the last days or the restoration of the Gifts of Spirit towards the end of the last days but I can’t prove it from this scripture alone.

Yours in Christ,
Riley

“I don’t see how Oss can exegetically support his claim that the signs accompanying Pentecost (and the apostolic era) should be expected to endure throughout all of the church age. Rather, it seems more tenable to assert, given Oss’s own reasoning, that in the same way that the cosmic signs are limited to the end of the age, the charismatic signs would be limited to the beginning. If that which marks the end is only found at the end, then that which marked the beginning could reasonably be expected to be found only at the beginning.”

I clearly see your reasoning in this and totally respect it, plus I think it is a legitimate questioning of Oss’ interpretation of this passage.
I guess my response would be: Instead of saying the gifts of the Spirit were characteristic of the early church and the cosmic signs characteristic of the time before Christ’ return; couldn’t we just say that these manifestations began at Pentecost and will successively be fulfilled? What I mean to say is; is it possible that the fulfillment began here and will continue until all is fulfilled?

Thank you for your comments. I greatly appreciate your gracious spirit.

I’m not totally sure I understand how your position is different than that of Douglas Oss. He sees the pouring out of the Spirit at Pentecost as the fulfillment of Joel 2:28, which (at Pentecost and beyond) was manifest through charismatic signs (including tongues, prophecy, visions, etc). These signs not only marked the apostolic age, they continued on throughout the church age, and will continue until the Parousia.

The cosmic signs (of Joel 2:30-31), however, were not present at Pentecost, and in fact will not occur until the end of the church age.

Perhaps I am not reading you correctly, but it seems that your view is very similar to this. Joel 2:28-29 was fulfilled at Pentecost (and its fulfillment extends throughout the church age). Joel 2:30-31 was not fulfilled at Pentecost, but will be fulfilled at the end of the age. Joel 2:32 was fulfilled at Pentecost (and its fulfillment extends throughout the church age).

Would this be an accurate summary of your position? Or am I missing something?

Thanks,
NB

Most Reformed Charismatics generally agree with the approach that Wayne Grudem in his ‘Systematic Theology’ takes to the Baptism with the Holy Spirit and that is that it is synonymous with regeneration. Being a Reformed Baptist Charismatic I’m sure I don’t speak for all but I believe that in 1 Co. 12:13 it teaches that all genuine converts to Christ are “baptized WITH one Spirit INTO one Body”. In the same way that we are baptized WITH water INTO the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19) so it is with the Spirit Baptism.

I do believe, however, that the ‘filling’ of the Holy Spirit is a continual experience subsequent to conversion. An experience all Christians are commanded to seek (Eph. 5:18). Hope that helps.