The quote that heads this article is not a quote from me. It’s one from of the champions of cessationism, Eusebius. There have been several posts in blogosphere over the last few months giving the impression that the Church Fathers’ were a…

You said “In having faith for the supernatural you have the trust God in an area that you cannot understand or figure out. When it comes to the Bible we are supposed to do everything we can to understand it.”

Agreed on both points.

You also said “If you prophesy (speaking by the Spirit of God-ICor.12:3) you cannot speak what you know with your intellect.”

When the Hebrew prophets prophesied, it was not only predictive, it was also speaking the word of the Lord to the people in their specific situation.

Why do you think so many people want to make Christian prophesying doctrinal or predictive? God speaks his very words through the one prophesying to the people who are present, and from what the Bible says it is for the edification of those assembled together.

It’s not as though those present are to uncritically accept whatever they hear. In Thessalonians, the believers are told to not despise prophesying, but to weigh carefully what is said, and to hold fast to what is good.

They are not told to weigh carefully what is said in order to then silence a person if something seems to “bleed through” which they discern to be more from the person than from the Spirit.

I’m not sure that the Old Testament’s rigorous test for Hebrew prophets is identical to how we are to treat Christian prophecy today. Some will argue that it is, and it’s fine for them to hold that view.

So, to repeat my question Riley, Why do you think so many people think of Christian prophesying as doctrinal or predictive?

My impression is that in some circles, if something is not didactic, or channeled through the intellect, then it is suspect, useless, or worse.

What do you think?

Riley:
Hi Whyte,
The Bible says of the Spirit.
John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
While this verse is directly talking about being born again it also tells something of how the Holy Spirit works. We can’t tell or know with our intellect where it’s coming or going.

In the same way, the entire realm of the nine Gifts of the Spirit does not and cannot function through the intellect. You can’t understand or control the Gifts of the Spirit with your intellect and the intellectual mindset tends to fight tooth and nail against anything it can’t control. Also, the pride of man has no intention of doing anything that seems foolish to the mind.

Having faith for the supernatural and miraculous is somewhat different than having faith to believe the truths of the word. In having faith for the supernatural you have the trust God in an area that you cannot understand or figure out. When it comes to the Bible we are supposed to do everything we can to understand it.
Rom. 12:14 “…how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?” (and understood)
Mat 13:19 “When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and UNDERSTANDETH IT NOT, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart…”
You have to hear, know, and understand the word sufficiently in order to believe it. God has given us our mind and intellect and we are supposed to use it. We are to read, study, meditate, memorize, and seek to understand the Word of God as much as we can.

Nevertheless, you cannot understand or figure out the miraculous. If you could understand it then it wouldn’t be a miracle. You can’t figure your way into a miracle but you can sure figure your way out of one by doubting, double mindedness, and second guessing. Concerning the supernatural, reasoning with your mind can be a significant problem.
Mar 2:5 “When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. 6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and REASONING in their hearts, 7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? 8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit (not his mind or intellect – this is a gift of the Word of Knowledge) that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? 9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?…”
See also Mt. 16:7,8; Mk. 6:37 & 8:4 (the disciples reasonings were worthless)

If you prophecy (speaking by the Spirit of God-ICor.12:3) you cannot speak what you know with your intellect. Anything you know, make up, or add with your mind is illegitimate. All you can do is shut down your mind and speak only what the Holy Spirit gives you. After you hear it you can think about it and judge it (14:29) but not before or during the prophecy. The less a prophet knows about a person or subject the better they like it. That way it’s easier to keep your mind and intellect from getting involved and adding something and messing it up.

The same is true for the Word of Knowledge and the Word of Wisdom.
Act 14:9 “The same heard Paul speak: who steadfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed…”
You can’t see faith with your eyes or figure it out with your intellect. You can only perceive these things by the Spirit. This is a gift of the Word of Knowledge given by the Holy Spirit (I Cor. 12:11).

While you can and should know the promises and instructions of the Jesus concerning healing and miracles you cannot figure out how God is going to do it. You don’t know and can’t figure out when, where, how, or through whom God is going to do something. Trying to figure it all out just causes doubt and unbelief. All you can do it act in simple obedience to the Word of God and believe with simple faith.

Intellectualism probably hates speaking in tongues most of all. The idea of “my understanding is unfruitful” is anathema to the intellectual. Frankly, the fact that you can’t understand it is one of its best benefits. Speaking in tongues teaches you to cooperate with the Holy Spirit to do something supernatural. This makes it easier to do something else supernatural like prophecy in which you do understand it without getting your mind involved.

Since the Bible plainly states that, “we know in part” [fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect)-AMP] (I Cor. 13:9) and that, “we know not what we should pray for as we ought” (Rom. 8:26) is it so surprising that God would give us a means of praying that goes beyond what our minds can understand?

In spite of anything I may say here, I still love and can fellowship with any true believer. We are all one in Christ and one in the Spirit even if our minds, including my own, haven’t got it all figured out yet.

Yours in Christ,
Riley Brown

You wrote, “I’m sure there’s some mutual frustration

“Let’s keep sharpening each other as this series go on and on and focus on Christ.

“…I don’t want you guys to think that I believe ya’ll are some heretics!”

That was very edifying, John. I’m sitting here very happy and relieved, because of your love and how you can accept differences between us.

No offense. I’m enjoying this.
Like someone said, “If you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen.” I don’t expect to “convert” everybody.;)
It’s forcing me to actually write these things down that I should have written down a long time ago.

Iron sharpens Iron.

Yours in Christ,
Riley

Any comments on my last line?

“There is authentic and legitimate edification and strength which does NOT have to pass through the intellect.”

My impression is that in some circles, if something is not didactic, or channeled through the intellect, then it is suspect, useless, or worse.

What do you think?

I sincerely, believe that you guys have misinterpreted those verses, but I want to say that I really have been pushed and have learned a lot from our exchanges (but I’m sure there’s some mutual frustration )

Let’s keep sharpening each other as this series go on and on and focus on Christ.

Sincerely,

-John

PS My father is a preacher and also a firm believer in tongues, so I don’t want you guys to think that I believe ya’ll are some heretics!

Paul said to speak in tongues to yourself and to God when there is no interpreter (v28) as an instruction so it’s OK.
Addition:
This concluding instruction (v28) agrees with the primary definition of speaking in tongues in v2. Paul is very consistent throughout this passage and does not change definitions in mid stream. Therefore it is acceptable to interpret the phrase, “speak to himself, and to God.” as referring to speaking in tongues.

Yours in Christ,
Riley