A Couple Key Questions
January 11th, 2007
(By Nathan Busenitz)
The charismatic issue is admittedly complex. Nonetheless, I believe it can be ultimately reduced to two foundational questions, the answers to which are key in thinking through one’s position on this issue.
These two questions will form a basic outline for us as we consider the sign gifts throughout the rest of this series.
1. The WHEN Question: Both sides agree that the New Testament indicates that the gifts will cease at some point in history (1 Cor. 13:8). The question is when? Continuationists generally assert that the sign gifts will not cease until the return of Christ. Cessationists on the other hand contend that the sign gifts have already ceased, ever since shortly after the apostolic age.
In the continuationist/cessationist debate, the when question is clearly a central point of disagreement. But it is not the only issue that needs to be addressed.
A second key question involves the way in which each side understands (and subsequently defines or describes) the charismatic phenomena of the New Testament. In order to assess whether or not the miraculous gifts are still active today, it is imperative that we understand what they were in apostolic times.
2. The WHAT Question: Both sides agree that the New Testament indicates that the gifts were in operation during the apostolic age. The question is, does contemporary continuationist practice match what was happening in the New Testament? Continuationists answer “Yes!” to this question, while cessationists answer “No!”
If contemporary charismatic practice matches the New Testament description of the sign gifts, then the continuationist position is greatly strengthened. But if it does not, then the continuationist position essentially evaporates (since what is happening now is not what was happening then).
Some may find this two-pronged approach overly simplistic, but I believe it is a helpful starting point for the discussion. In my own study of the issue, these two questions continually arise as the primary points of contention in the debate.
A more general thought for Nate:
What danger is there in taking a conservative approach to sign gifts today? None.
What danger is there in taking a liberal approach and being involved with sign gifts today? Myriad.
What loss is there for the believer who does not partake in such activity, even were it legit? None, as having already received the Holy Spirit in the normal Christian sense, Christ should be our all in all. When we live in obedience to His Word, we should be fulfilled with the peace God brings to our spiritual lives. If we aren’t feeling “fulfilled” we should be checking our priorities and habits and drawing near unto God at His Word, not seeking fulfillment from other spiritual sources, just as not from other physical, worldly sources.
This begs the question of what would drive one to seek out the experiential to supplement their relationship with God through Jesus Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
But these are more delicate matters, so it may be best to avoid them in your upcoming talk.
Wake – your comment shocks me. Please reread it and ask yourself if this is what you really mean. Your comments continue to flow from a view that the Charismatic position is wrong. I think Nate is attempting to analyze this and you keep jumping ahead.
I’ll rewrite your questions not to attack you but to show that they provide no insight to the points Nate is after. I think you can work out the rest of your comment from there.
What danger is there if the Spirit is giving gifts that you would refuse and teach against? Myriad.
What danger is there to allow God to work all that He wants in you? None.
Nate – I like the approach. On the what question, I trust you allow room for “degree”. That is, while I would answer that what we see in the apostolic period happens today, I would not agree that it happens to that degree as a norm. Not to say it couldn’t but I’d have to be honest and say it does not. And frankly, I don’t have the expectation that it should.
I hope that I am not getting ahead in my response. There is probably an easy answer to this, but I’ll express it nevertheless. Nathan, maybe you can comment on this in the days to come.
I have understood all spiritual gifts to be spiritual expressions in that it is the Holy Spirit who is expressing Christ through the Christian.
So in that sense, God determines when and which expressions will be used. This would indicate to us that while there are spiritual gifts named in Scripture, they are not all of them. In other words, God is not bound to only express himself through the church in the gifts mentioned in Scripture. I would argue that there is a really good possibility that Paul did not list all of the gifts that he observed.
Considering this, would it be far fetched to think that maybe some spiritual gifts today in the Charismatic arena were never mentioned in Scripture? Or maybe they are being expressed in different forms?
Now, I am a cessationist and would argue against the things that I have witnessed in the Charismatic churches, but I wonder if we cannot rule out this possibility? And if so, then is it necessary to compare gifts with those of the apostolic age?
(I would love to give examples, but unfortunately, I am not as creative as our Lord and can think of no real sign gifts for today. But still, I wonder of the possibility here.)
Great job Nathan. This is a good read!
Nathan,
I’ve been liking this series so far and am looking forward to the rest of it. But it looks to me that your second point there completely sidesteps a Poythress type position, or an open but cautious one. Since Poythress says that stuff goes on that is analogous to new Testament signs, and the Open but Cautious guys say that it still goes on but not nearly so much as some charismatics would like to think.
I’m just wondering if you’re going to interact with those positions at all…
Paul
It’s not “fashionable” anymore to consider the close of the canon to be the “perfect” of 1 Cor. 13:10, even among conservatives. I never used to subscribe to it but have been convinced in recent years. The “perfect” (teleios, a neuter adj., here meaning “complete” as it is in contrast to the “partial” of v. 9) has to do with revelation, as Paul is talking about the revelatory gifts (vv. 8,9). Paul also uses a mirror analogy for “seeing” darkly then clearly. James uses the same mirror analogy, and tells us it is the Word of God he’s referring to (Jas. 1:23 ff.) There are more strands to the argument, but this will provide a start.
The “what” is having specific persons operate as in the Apostolic age, and this is crucial. These were clearly meant for testimonial purposes (Heb. 2:1-4). Why is this so important a distinction? Because a Mormon will tell you Joseph Smith was given Scripture-style revelation. I once asked a Mormon Bishop when Joseph Smith healed a man or raised the dead in public. No answer. That’s why this discussion matters. There are too many false prophets around, even within the camp.
Could the deeper issue be hermeneutics?
Dear Wake,
I don’t agree with the labels – “conservative” and “liberal” to define continuationists and cessasionists respectively. I’m a cessationist, and I know plenty of theological conservatives who differ with me on this (consider Piper).
I think it’s best to reserve the term “liberal” for those who deny first order doctrines like the inerrancy of Scripture, the resurrection of Christ, the virgin birth, etc.
By keeping these boundaries, we encourage an open discussion with other brethren who disagree on this,but might not share their views for fear of being labeled a liberal.
Respectfully,
Steve Lamm
When?
“And God has set some in the Church, 1st Apostles, 2nd Prophets”.
These two gifts I would say are no longer given to the Church.
I am earnest in my belief of this.
The Apostles & Prophets are the foundation of the Church. Eph. 2:20
“3rdly teachers” These are still given to the Church.
“after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, different kinds of tongues.”
Here we have two gifts that are certainly given, helps, governments.
“miracles, healings, tongues” I would say it is inconclusive according to Scripture, whether these gifts are kaput.
What?
Miracles and healings no way match what Peter, Paul, and others performed in the NT.
Tongues? I don’t think there has ever been anything like Acts 2.
1 Cor. 14? Are these tongues the same today. This is, for me, impossible to say. However, with all my early years in the Pentecostal camp, and seeing all I have seen, I doubt that this is the case.
The one thing that is surely missing is the gift of interpretation. This is a very difficult gift to understand.
Having said all that, I believe the Reformed Charasmatic sub-camp is quite seperate from the main line Pentecostal/Charasmatic camps.
Basically what I have seen is that these Charismatic brothers have an incredible exuberance and enthusiasm.
I appreciate your taking on this rather controversial subject. May the Lord bring us all to a greater understanding of His revealed truth, and also help us to not be anxious for the secret things which are His alone. Amen.
Nathan,
I think you’ve nailed the two main issues. I’m really interested in what you and others have to say about this.
I’m tempted to jump in right now, but I sense that you’re going to get to each of these questions tomorrow.
If that’s so, I’ll hold and let you fire the first volley!
Blessings,
Steve Lamm
Coming from a church that believes in speaking in tongues, prophecy, healing, etc… My experience was more confusion. There are many dangers that I have experience however I don’t know where to draw the line. I have seen some crazy things but have no words to describe what took place.
I know that the Holy Ghost moves and works with the Word, not against it, however is it possible that in His mercy He would do something extraordinary? Anything is possible within the will of God. We have limited knowledge of the will of God because He has kept a lot of things from us and only given us enough to know who He is and who we are (and our bankruptcy without Him).
Because of my experience within my family and of my past congregation I have always been a “Cessationists” however I don’t know where to draw the line.
donsands,
Wouldn’t you say that apostles and prophets were “gifted men” rather than “spiritual gifts” the Spirit would distribute to the general church body? Thus, the question of whether or not there are apostles and prophets today is a slightly different issue than the existence of the miracle sign gifts which were included in Paul’s list in I Cor. 12.
I find the concept of “degrees” rather shocking. After all, a little leaven affects the whole lump of dough. The dichotomous aspect of truth – right/wrong – is being attacked by the emergent movement enough as it is, being that if one can get even a little of something erroneous to be accepted, they’ve won because once the foot is in the door, so-to-speak, the opening can be leveraged gradually wider over time in a manner that is akin to the cliche of slowly turning up the heat to boil a frog without it jumping out of the pot.
So instead let us focus on matters concerning truth from the perspective of God’s Word, which contains didactic truth and not a dialogue of degrees.
Something initiated and wrought by God does not fail whether it be prophecy, miracle or other(eg. Joshua 21:45). If I say I have received something from God/Holy Spirit (a prophetic word, a vision, an assurance of healing for someone, etc…) and it fails, it begs an important question doesn’t it? (Deut. 18:20-22)
I share friendly fellowship with some charismatics, though I could not worship with them. I am curious how a charismatic theologian explains the many prohetic utterances that are spoken in God’s name that do not occur precisely as they are spoken. And further, does the charismatics explanation reflect the pattern of practice of the apostles?
Is it more important to establish a date of extinction for certain gifts or to apply the truth of Scripture to the claims of charismata? …humbly
Nathan,
Thank you for addressing this issue. I’m preaching on Ephesians 4:11-13 soon and I’m starting a study through Acts. Wish I could be at Shepherds this year.
Grace and Peace,
Rick Steen
Rick,
You asked, “What danger is there to allow God to work all that He wants in you? None.”
What makes you think that you have to “allow God to work”? How would you reconcile such a question with, say, Psalm 115:3?
Other questions I would ask.
1.) Why were biblical tongues earthly foreign languages (Acts 2:8) while moderns tongues are unintelligible gibberish?
2.) Why did prophets in the Bible have the actual Words of God in their mouths (Deut. 18:18), whereas modern prophets “feel that God is giving them a word”?
3.) Why are modern prophets never right? If God put false prophets to death in the OT (Deut. 18:20), isn’t that a good clue that he takes any witness regarding His name very seriously?
DerekW.
They will usually say that “the error wasn’t in the message, but in the messenger”. However, Deut. 18:18-22 does not give us that option. The prophet is not a “messenger” of God. He is a “mouthpiece” of God. No errors can be tolerated, lest we make God a false witness.
Nate,
Good stuff! Very irenic approach to an all-too-often more heat than light issue.
Also, I agree with Steve Lamm!
PS: I remember you from 1986-1989 when I was at TMS. Grettings to your dear and faithful father.
Steven,
“When He ascened up on high, … and gave gifts unto men. … And He gave some, apostles; some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the building-up of the body of Christ”. Eph. 4:8,11-12
I believe these are gifted men, who are gifts to the Church.
Elders and deacons would be differnet. Though called by God to serve as well, they are not distinct gifts, as listed here by Paul.
The question has been asked whether the gifts in operation today are like the ones in the NT. Take the case of modern day speaking in unknown tongues.
The Apostle Paul spoke in unknown tongues.
Consider these verses Chapter 14 of I Corinthians.
(Virtually every verse in ch14:1-28 requires that tongues be unknown)
The nature of speaking in tongues is defined in v2.
v2 – “no man understandeth him” is this plain enough?
v14 – “For if I pray in an (unknown) tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.” When Paul says “my understanding is unfruitful” it means he can’t understand what he is saying when he speaks in a tongue. That’s an unknown tongue (singular).
v18 – “I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: “Are these (plural) tongues known or unknown. The next verse tells us.
v19 – “Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that (by my voice) I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an (unknown) tongue.” The contrast (“yet”) is between speaking in tongues (plural) in v18 and speaking words with his understanding in v19. The obvious conclusion is that the Paul’s own tongues (whether singular in v14 or plural in v18) were not with his understanding; in other words unknown. It also says he would rather speak (in church in order to teach) five words with his understanding. Rather than what? – “ten thousand words in an (unknown) tongue.” This implies that the hearers also could not understand what Paul was speaking in tongues.
So neither Paul himself nor those listening to him would be able to understand Paul’s (unknown) tongues. Paul obviously must have done all this speaking in tongues somewhere besides in church and the purpose was for his own personal edification (v4).
This completely eliminates the idea that speaking in tongues was for preaching the gospel (no man understands). It also shows that what happened on the day of Pentecost was not the norm for speaking in tongues. Modern day speaking in unknown tongues is not unintelligible gibberish but rather it’s the same thing that the apostle Paul was doing.
There is no partiality with the Word of God. I am convicted that there is only one correct answer to this matter, though we may not fully conclude it in this life.
Yet to accept something even in the smallest degree is still to accept it and thus to not deny it.
Either one affirms that the sign gifts today are the same as those used to establish and authenticate the Church, or one denies that.
Either one affirms their validity or one denies it. There is no such thing as partially correct when it comes to God.
Either they are for today or they aren’t.
Either one believes that they were for that specific purpose or one believes they are broader in use than that.
As with most (all?) matters regarding God, it is a question that demands a binary answer – one or the other. Any ‘degree’ off of one choice in the matter is to accept the other choice.
Thus, the ONLY purpose for a desire for ‘degrees’ of acceptability is to (surreptitiously or unknowingly) allow for a supposed alternative position that really represents the second position, just in a smaller degree. The goal is to appear as being nearly aligned with the first position while making allowances for the other position and thus the other gets its foot in the door. This is a hallmark of the emergent movement with its conversation dialogue replacing the didactic teaching of the truth. It should be noted that this is also the essence of diaprax – to move from the thesis to the antithesis (via synthesis and moderation – which is degrees) so as to not appear to be doing exactly that.
Riley,
What is an “unknown” tongue? I couldn’t help but notice that you skipped a few verses in 1 Corinthians 14.
“There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church. Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret.”
(1 Corinthians 14:10-13)
Paul considers “earthly” languages here when he speaks of unknown tongues. Therefore, his commandment is clear. The tongues must be interpreted.
Do you know Chinese? I don’t. For me, that is an “unknown” tongue.
In any case, it is clear that biblical tongues, at the very least, included earthly foreign languages. (I see no evidence that they included anything else). That part of the gift is strangely lacking today.
From a former Charimatic.
The biggest problem with the idea of continuing revelation is that it denies the sufficiency of Scripture in the life of a Christian. Jesus said that we are to live “by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” (Matthew 4:4). For the cessationist, that is easy to define. Sola Scriptura! But for the charismatic, confusion is sure to abound. Remember, obedience to God’s prophet is not optional.
“And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:19)
This brings up the obvious question. How do we know if we are to obey a prophet? What is the test? Furthermore, how can we obey if we can’t understand what he is saying?
It is safe to say that the Old Covenant office of prophet has been done away with. Christ himself is the end of prophecy (Hebrews 1:1-2), for the faith has “once for all been delivered to the saints” (Jude 1:3) and cannot be added to or taken from (Revelation 22:18-19).
Nate,
Great dialogue!
I grew up in the Pentecostal Movement, and I’m still in it (However, I hope to be leaving soon), but I’m a cessationist (Thanks to John MacArthur’s book, Charismatic Chaos).
I think one question that needs to be asked in all of this debate is “Why?” Why is it necessary to speak in tongues?
If it’s happening today, what’s its purpose? Those in the Charismatic/Pentecostal camp will say, “It allows you to be closer to God, which in return, gives you more boldness for witnessing and more power for service.” Is this true? I don’t believe so. If I never said anything about my not speaking in tongues, would a pentecostal or charismatic be able to tell that I was “not operating in the full power of God.”
It appears to me that Grace Community Church, under the leadership of John MacArthur, is operating by the Spirit of God. People there are being saved and added to the church, and that’s without anyone speaking in tongues!
Just as a side note, one other area you might want to explore regarding the charismatic and pentecostal movement is the notion that speaking in tongues is the “initial evidence” of Spirit baptism.
I Love MacArthur’s book as well. O. Palmer Robertson’s “The Final Word” is another good one.
In fairness, I need to say that MacArthur’s book deals with the fringe excesses of the movement. The mainstream Pentecostal Churches, in an average service, aren’t really that much different than the average Free Will Baptist, except for the occasional “word from the Lord”.
That said, the danger is obvious. Once a person has been labeled a “prophet”, how far will he be followed?
I wonder, would the people group of the individuals have any bearing on the operation of spiritual gifts?
I am specifically thinking of situations where missionaries (be they native or outsiders) are evangelizing people groups with absolutely no knowledge of Christ. Could it be that these situations would look a lot more like what we see in Acts while here the Christian or post-Christian people groups such gifts are not needed or are ineffective therefore are not normative?
Just coming into this discussion, so I have a lot of reactions, but I’ll just address a few.
Shannon, you bring up an excellent point that I think Nate could have included in the initial discussion – the “Why?” question. That is, Why did God give the gift of tongues, prophecy, knowledge, word of wisdom. At least the answer to the “why” question about tongues is answered for us by Paul himself in chapter 14. The primary point is it is for the “unbeliever” (14:20-25). And that unbeliever is specifically the Jewish apostate nation (v. 21) scattered throughout the Roman empire, witnessing the birthing of churches next to their synagogues. Its a sign judgment to them that the Spirit of God has come upon Gentiles, and left them in their unbelief. So it goes without saying that the gift should “cease” at some point in conjunction with the maturing church and A.D. 70 judgment on the nation of Israel. The word “cease” has a once for all time element to it. Which makes the “done away” idea more of an interesting discussion. To include tongues throughout the centuries certainly loses its purpose. To say that it is an evangelistic gift is accurate to me in light of Acts 2, but you can’t just separate that purpose from the sign judgment. So it ceased in that early generation. Gentiles converted were able to communicate in their known languages without the aide of Spirit overcoming ignorance.
Puritan lad,
that is a common complaint of Charismatic Chaos, but you certainly have to admit that those same people John quoted and addressed were and are some of the most popular cult personalities amongst the common charismatic. Benny Hinn, if he came to Anchorage Alaska today, would sell out the largest auditorium available in the whole state. He’d have half a dozen church pastors of some of the most popular and populous charismatic churches in the area on the platform with him. And most charismatic churches would have people clammoring to attend. And I’m not exaggerating. So is it the lunatic fringe? Or is it lack of discernment? You tell me.
Denis, you have to be very careful with determining the authenticity of tongues et al by missionary stories and 2nd hand eye witness accounts. John MacArthur spoke very candidly one Shep’s Conf by saying, “I can’t verify that, but the Word of God I can verify.” Not in exact words. Jack Deere used the missionary story hermeneutic to be the authoritative test. Without the sure word of prophecy, we’re left with our best guess and experience.
@ Riley
This was in yesterdays post, but I think you missed it.
As for you exegesis on tongues I simply cannot agree with your 1 Corinth 14:2 and I believe you’ve made a common misinterpretation.
“For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.”
This is not a commendation, yet many people use it as such. The Apostle here is condemning the use of tongues in that stance, basically “If you speak in a language that no one understands, only God does” not “Speaking in tongues is speaking to God.”
Don’t believe me? Go look at that chapter,especially that section and you’ll see there are no commendations for tongues – all negatives, including that one.
Also,
1 Corinthians 13 explicitly says Love is not self-seeking, thus not self-edifying. He denounces this strongly! So why would he than turn around and say that tongues is for SELF edification? He doesn’t, but shows all the negative aspects of it by comparing it to prophecy.
Also it should be more evidence from the verses you quote that Paul does not speak tongues in churches, but perhaps as a “sign to unbelievers” like at Pentecost. Again, absolutely no precedence for personal prayer language, rather it shows that the use of tongues is consisted as a sign to unbelievers whenever it is used: Acts 2, 9, and 10 (possibly 8 though not explicitly stated).
These comments are entertaining … I guess most of us are not willing to let Nate develop his thoughts.
I think some comments were addressed to me so I suppose I should respond.
Wake – I’m assuming your shock around the concept of degrees was towards me because I am the only one so far that used that word. And because I expressed “shock” at your initial remarks. If I am responding to the wrong person, let me know.
I said degree not meaning shades of gray. Truth is truth and non-truth is non-truth. I was addressing Nate’s statement, “The question is, does contemporary continuationist practice match what was happening in the New Testament?” Some have argued that if it doesn’t exactly match, then it must not be true. But they have demonstrated that that criteria is Biblical. So I was asking Nate (obviously I didn’t do it well) if he would take some time to establish if the operation of the gifts need to match exactly (e.g., in nature, frequency, etc.) or if they only need be “similar”. I hope that makes sense.
Therefore, I’m with you, we either accept these gifts for today or we don’t.
Puritan Lad – I’m not sure how to interact with you here.
My questions were simply trying to demonstrate that Wake’s questions were a bit faulty. Why did you question me rather than him? From the balance of your comments in this thread it seems that it is because you have picked sides. Your statement to attack me only reinforces my point to him.
To your questions. I’m not sure if you are serious about them.
The first seems more like an attack – “unintelligible gibberish”. You should hope that you are right in this debate because if you are wrong, I bet God isn’t happy with your crass assessment of His gifts. That aside, your point that “all” Biblical tongues are foreign languages isn’t explicitly stated in Scripture. There’s even reasonable argument to say the Acts 2 account isn’t actually spoken in the native language. I’m not sure I buy that but I am sure your argument has been heard and there is substantial argument to the contrary.
Your second question again comes off as a bit sarcastic. Surely you are aware of the arguments differentiating between OT and NT prophecies based on Scriptures such as Acts 21.4; Acts 21.10-11; 1 The 5.19-21; 1 Co 14.29-38 …? I find it odd that you ask this question as if it is established fact and you even confront DerekW. with the same.
Your final question supports my perception of your attitude, “why are modern prophets never right?” Really? You know this?
My recommendation is for you to stop attacking folks with your absolutes and instead either offer Scriptural support for your insights or kick back and enjoy Nate’s posts.
Dan,
Don’t get me wrong. I love John’s book. It is an important work. I have no complaints about it. I just wanted to clarify that most charismatics don’t go to the excesses that the examples in the book show, (ie. punching pregnant women in the stomach to heal their babies, etc.) I come from that background, and we didn’t do that.
Rick, No attack meant, but yes I am taking sides, as well as anyone else. I didn’t see where I was “attacking folks” as much as I was attacking doctrine. I won’t deny the salvation of charismatic, as I myself used to be a saved, Arminian, Pentecostal. But this is no small issue. If the Bible the complete Word of God or not?
As far as “the arguments differentiating between OT and NT prophecies”, I didn’t want to presume anything along those lines without someone from your side makeing the argument. In the end, prophecy is prophecy. Either it is a word from the Lord, or it is a word from one’s own imagination. If it is the former, then it must be inerrant, infallible, and authoritative. There can be no errors in it, and it must be obeyed. If it is the latter, then it is, at best, useless.
“Your final question supports my perception of your attitude, “why are modern prophets never right?” Really? You know this?
As for my final question, let’s just say that the “prophets” that I have run across would be in big trouble in OT Israel, and I’m talking about some close family members of mine.
“Both sides agree that the New Testament indicates that the gifts will cease at some point in history (1 Cor. 13:8). The question is when?”
That is the question indeed. I find it interesting to note that many cessationist use the verses in 1 Co. 13:8-10 to support that claim that the “perfect” is obviously the completion of the N.T. Canon. The problem is; that cannot work ever, the context demands that this is something else. Cessationists stop at verse 10 and go no further, but what does the rest of the scripture say?
“For NOW we see in a mirror dimly, but THEN face to face; NOW I know IN PART, but THEN I will know FULLY JUST AS I ALSO HAVE BEEN FULLY KNOWN.” -1 Co. 13:12
My question to those who would hold to the view that the “perfect” here is the completed canon is: Do you know fully? Do you know just as you have been known?
Of course not. The “perfect” obviously refers to the revelation of the New Heavens and the New Earth wherein dwells righteousness. This is what we as Christians are looking for; a perfect universe, where a perfect King, Jesus Christ, rules and the perfect God lives among a people whom He has made perfect. This is the only sense I can gather from this text. This is why I believe the cessationist arguement does not hold water. Other than this claim, cessationists have nothing to go on other than mere speculation.
I’m not a seminary grad but I believe that that is the obvious answer to the question “when”. The gifts will continue on until “the perfect” comes, until then, we must assume that the gifts are still being distributed by the Holy Spirit to the Glory of God. Sound logical?
Puritan Lad, you said: “Either it is a word from the Lord, or it is a word from one’s own imagination. If it is the former, then it must be inerrant, infallible, and authoritative. There can be no errors in it, and it must be obeyed. If it is the latter, then it is, at best, useless.”
I agree, to a degree. If it is an O.T. prophet then this applies (they, however, have all died). If it is one of the twelve apostles (who alone were authorized by Christ Himself to give and validate inspired revelation) then this applies as well. If, however, this is the N.T. gift of prophecy then it does not apply. Why? Let me ask you this: If Paul believed that the gift of prophecy was infallible then why did he say that they should be judged and tested?
“Do not quench the Spirit; do not despise prophetic utterances. But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil.” -1 Thess. 5:19-22
“Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgement”. 1 Co. 14:29
I agree that men who come along and make ridiculously extravagant prophecies that never come to pass should be excommunicated or they should sit down and say nothing. New Testament prophets never give new information about God or His Word. Anyone who would make such claims is wrong and is not reading their Bible rightly. But, we cannot deny that the N.T. gift of prophecy and office of prophet are not the same as the authoritative O.T. Prophets and N.T. Apostles. If they were the same, Paul’s admonition to test and judge prophecies would not make sense. Plus, because the highest office in the Body of Christ today is the Pastor and Elders, the N.T. prophet should always be tested and approved by these men before he makes any public statements.
@ CBX
“If they were the same, Paul’s admonition to test and judge prophecies would not make sense.”
That’s not true and I think that’s not the sense of it. Back than they had no canon to follow and as you know, there were many hucksters, magicians, and false prophets. So they couldn’t let any old joker come about and say what they wanted and let it be, but they had to be careful and tests them to see if they were true.
Remember, John also gave a similar command (if not the same) in 1 John 4:1 “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”
John, It is true without a doubt that there were many false prophets who would make many erroneous claims and would attempt to lead many away from the truth. But would you agree when I say that in these epistles Paul was speaking to the local church and to those that were known therein. For instance, it is clear in ch. 14 of 1 Co. that there was a certain element of control involved; not just anyone could stand up and give a prophecy who was not recognized. Look at Agabus in the book of Acts (chs. 11:27-28 & 21:10-11). It was obviously well known that this man was a prophet from Jerusalem and had the approval of the Apostles or else they would not have even acknowlegded him as a legitimate minister. It’s as I said before: anyone who claims to be a prophet must first be tested and proved by the leaders of the church before he can make any statements in the congregation. I believe that is what Paul was referring when he spoke of judging prophecies; as well as instantaneous revelations that were given in the midst of a worship service (1 Co. 14:29-33). If any person could just stand up and “prophecy” that would totally defeat the purpose of what Paul is saying in those aforementioned references; it would cause confusion and frustration because someone would just spontaneously stand and “go at it” so to speak, that’s not right. We must therefore assume that if anyone was allowed to prophecy in the congregation they must have had to undergo prior testing and approval by the eldership.
@ CBX
Ah, good point and well taken – I have to admit that I cannot be dogmatic about this verse and Romans 12:6 “Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;” and they make very good arguments for NT prophecy not being equiv. to the OT prophecy.
On this one point, I think that your camp has the better exegesis, but you know its like you won this battle, but the war (the rest of the arguments) go toward the OT proph = NT proph. I hope that’s okay. At this point I can’t say I agree 100% w/ either side’s exegesis and it isn’t enough for me to come over (come back actually) to the charismatic camp.
Let’s Keep On Sharpening Each Other,
-John Park
PS I’m don’t agree w/ a lot of cessastionist views on 1 Corinthians 13 either – I tend to believe that it is Christ’s revelation. Have you heard this one? That prophecy, tongues, and knowledge is still technically possible ie as Dr. S. Lewis Johnson and Dr. MacArthur I believe both said, tongues could still happen as a miracle, in an extreme situation on the mission field, but not as a gift. Also, those things may come back in the tribulation age/dispensation (this is just my belief see Joel 3). So the endowment of men with those specific sign gifts had ended, but not the miracles themselves. But they will all end when the Perfect/Jesus comes.
PPS I’m not dogmatic about 1 Corin 13 either and I think both camps shouldn’t be, on “the perfect,” and make foundational doctrines on that verse.
CBX,
The judging and testing of prophecy isn’t unique to the New Testament. This was also true in the Old Testament, with more serious ramifications.
“But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’– when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:20-22)
The test is the same. If prophecy isn’t inerrant, infallible, and authoritative, then it is false, Old or New Testament.
If the gift of prophecy is still in affect, then the words the prophet speaks must carry the same weight as Scripture itself. Few, if any, charismatics would ever make that claim, which brings up another question. Is modern prophecy a word from God? What is it for?
John said: (yesterday – I’m a little slow responding)
1 Corinthians 13 explicitly says Love is not self-seeking, thus not self-edifying. He denounces this strongly! So why would he than turn around and say that tongues is for SELF edification? He doesn’t, but shows all the negative aspects of it by comparing it to prophecy.
Riley
Here is something we are instructed to do.
Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
“Building up” is the same word in the Greek (oikodomeō) as “edifieth” in I Cor. 14:4.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself…
Jude 20 instructs us to build up or edify ourselves by praying in the Holy Ghost. This is not selfishness, it is obedience. All types of prayer can and should be done in the Holy Ghost. (Eph. 6:18 Praying always with all [manner of - Amp.] prayer and supplication in the Spirit…)
Speaking in tongues is called prayer in I Cor.14:14,15 and as an utterance given by the Spirit (Acts 2:4) it would certainly qualify as praying in the Holy Ghost.
Therefore in our personal prayer time it is quite acceptable to pray in tongues to edify ourselves in obedience to Jude 20 and according to I Cor. 14:4. We’re supposed to have a time of prayer with the Lord (Mt. 26.40,41; Luke 18:1). Praying in tongues for part of that time would be no more selfish that any other type of prayer we might pray.
Paul says that speaking in tongues is to “bless with the spirit” (v16), and “giving of thanks” (v16), and that “thou verily givest thanks well” (v17). This doesn’t sound much like a condemnation does it? When you “bless with the spirit” in tongues the Holy Spirit is giving a voice of worship to your spirit rather than to your mind. The only problem he points out and wishes to correct is that if you speak in tongues in church without the interpretation, “the other is not edified” (v17). That would be selfish and it wouldn’t be love.
Therefore in church, and according to the principle of love, we should want to edify others and not just ourselves. So Paul’s main intent is to insure that when tongues are spoken in church that the interpretation is given in an orderly fashion so that others may also be edified. That way it satisfies the requirements of love and wouldn’t be selfish.
1Co 14:26 …Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
Paul also points out in v5 that speaking in tongues with the interpretation is the equivalent of prophecy in that both will now edify the church. Speaking in tongues is only selfish if it’s spoken in church WITHOUT the interpretation where nobody else is being edified but yourself. That’s the problem that Paul is correcting. Not the tongues themselves.
Yours in Christ,
Riley
Puritan Lad, It’s interesting to note that the prophet Agabus who prophecied about Paul’s arrest wasn’t 100% accurate.
Prediction:
“As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. And coming to us, he took Paul’s belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said,”This is what the Holy Spirit says: ‘In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.” -Acts 21:10-11
Fulfillment:
“Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut. While they were seeking to kill him, a report came up to the commander of the Roman cohort that all Jerusalem was in confusion. At once he took along some soldiers and centurions and ran down to them; and when they saw the commander and the soldiers, they stopped beating Paul. Then the commander came up and took hold of him, and ordered him to be bound with two chains; and he began asking who he was and what he had done.” -Acts 21:30-33
Agabus prophecied that the Jews would bind Paul; but it was the commander who ordered the Romans to bind him (vs. 33). Agabus also prophecied that the Jews would hand Paul over to the Romans; this too was not completely accurate because as we see in the text the “commander came up and took hold of him”. The Romans had to take Paul by force or else the Jews would have beat him death. Should we then assume that because Agabus wasn’t completely 100% accurate that he was a false prophet?
Where does it say that the “Romans” bound him? All it says is that the “commander … ordered him to be bound with two chains”. This was done by Jews, not Romans. How do I know this? Because the Holy Spirit said so (Acts 21:10-11).
This is really where the rubber meets the road concerning prophecy. Your question isn’t really a test of the prophet Agabus, but rather the Holy Spirit Himself. When someone opens his mouth and proclaims “This is what the Holy Spirit says”, or “Thus sayeth the Lord”, he is making a very bold claim. The next words that follow are not a small matter. The must be 100% accurate. Anything else would be tantamount to calling God a liar. It is a serious thing to call God as a Covenant Witness to a lie, or attribute any falsehood to His name. This was the reason for the death penalty in the Old Testament. It is no less serious today. Therefore, I would plead for those who are in the charimatic movement to listen carefully to what is being “prophecied” in your churches. Consider His glory when you hear these things, and judge whether or not the prophecies pass the Deut. 18:22 test.
Usually, if the prophecies have any substance in them at all (most don’t), it is easy to see how that fail.
Re: 1 Cor. 13:8-13, we need to read all the way to the end. The “perfect” must be something that appears *before* the second coming of Christ, since v. 13 shows the partial will cease while faith, hope and love continue to abide in the church. But at the second coming there will no longer be any reason for hope to exist, for that will all be realized. (cf. Ro. 8:24-25). This rules out *all* eschatalogical interpretations of teleion.
What about “fully known”? That’s a translation of epiginosko, which is used interchangeably in the NT with ginosko, and means simply “to know.” As in the KJV. Further, we will never have “full knowledge,” even in heaven. God is the only omniscient being. Further still, the object of the knowledge here is not given. It can mean that we shall know *ourselves* even as God knows us, because it (the perfect) will show us. This comports with, e.g., Heb. 4:13, James 1:23-25)
Along with the “mirror” analogy and the revelatory purpose, the best fit for “perfect” is the canon.
“Where does it say that the “Romans” bound him?”
The Bible says the commander came and took hold of Paul and then ordered him to be bound. We can surmise by this that if Paul was in the custody of the Romans before he was actually bound then it was the Romans who bound him.
Puritan Lad, Brother, I think your missing my point. I am NOT calling the Holy Spirit a liar; I’m simply pointing out the fact that the authority of a N.T. prophet is not on the same level of authority as an O.T. prophet. This level of authority was maintained in the Apostles of Christ. The Apostles were the only ones in the N.T. sent by Christ personally to lay the foundations of the church as well as communicate God’s infallible and inerrant Word to His people.
As far as the statement: “Thus says the Holy Spirit” I think Dr. Wayne Grudem can articulate better than me what I believe this statement means:
“Now it is true that Agabus uses a similar phrase (“Thus says the Holy Spirit”) in Acts 21:11, but the same words (Gk. tade legei) are used by Christian writers just after the time of the New Testament to introduce very general paraphrases or greatly expanded interpretations of what is being reported (so Ignatius, Epistle to the Philadelphians 7:1-2 [about A.D. 108] and Epistle of Barnabas 6:8; 9:2, 5 [A.D. 70-100]). The phrase can apparently mean, “This is generally (or approximately) what the Holy Spirit is saying to us.” Systematic Theology, pg. 1056
Again, the only ones who were ever infallible and inerrant in their declarations and writings of God’s Word were the original Apostles (including Paul). Therefore, it’s obvious due to this fact as well as the fact that all prophecies within the CHURCHES were to be tested that N.T. prophets and their prophecies were not totally infallible and needed to be weighed out. Thanks for the good dialogue, be blessed.
JSB, To hold to the view that the “perfect” is the completion of the canon is to say that we know now more than Paul knew then.
Paul said: “For WE know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away”. 1 Co. 13:9-10
Paul acknowledged that his knowlegde was incomplete. If the canon is “the perfect” he was speaking of, then our knowledge is complete and we have advanced over Paul in spiritual understanding.
Dr. MacArthur said: “The “perfect” is not the completion of Scripture, since there is still the operation of those two gifts and will be in the future Kingdom (cf. Joel 2:28; Ac 2:17; Rev. 11:3). The Scriptures do not allow us to see “face to face” or have perfect knowledge as God does (v. 12). The “perfect” is not the rapture of the church or the second coming of Christ, since the kingdom to follow these events will have an abundance of preachers and teachers (cf. Is 29:18; 32:3,4; Joel 2:28; Rev 11:3). The perfect must be THE ETERNAL STATE, when we in glory see God face to face (Rev 22:4) and have full knowledge in the eternal new heavens and new earth.” -MacArthur Study Bible, 1 Co. 13:1-8 notes
CBX, good point about Paul’s understanding. But query: Was the book of Revelation given before or after 1 Cor.? If after, does it not follow that we have a more complete understanding than Paul? Just as in the case of the Prophets? See 1 Peter 1:10-12.
JSB, Good point yourself. It’s possible I suppose and definitely worth pondering and looking into. Thanks for the thoughts.
Let me respond with my past experiences when I was involved in the charismatic worship. I was very much corrupted by there teachings. I spoke in tongues and prophised over others. What I cam to find out is that , especially in me, that there is NO consistency with this style. If I found myself to wander, others have done the same. The danger with this style is so dangerous because you find your self seeking signs and wonders, NOT HIS WORD!! You are always trying to get to the “next level” of spiritual success. You find yourself always comparing yourself to others, asking yourself, ‘why do they have that gift’ or ‘why doesn’t God want to use that person to speak over my life, he didn’t for my friend.’ Of course there was some insecurity I developed and not others may feel that way, but I know most do! Tongues is a self seeking egotistical gift for the believer. It doesn’t not benefit anyone, except making yourself spiritual. Understand, I do believe in those gifts, but not how they are used on our culture today. I believe it served its purpose in the New Testament. Can God do incredible things, of course. What did the last verse in the book of John say? God is more than able to what ever he wants. Basically all I am saying is that we must be careful and discern everything that could go against Gods word. Charismatics believe that you can still expound from the Word, we all know that is false. Gods word will say one thing about a subject or a application, but the charismatic can have a euphoric experience that contradicts the Word. That is dangerous. I have down that plenty of times when I first became a believer. But now God has shown me through his word that it is faith alone nothing else. Not to trust in those “so-call experiences”. I left that movement and searched out a church that believes word for word. remember the devil will you this to stray and give false security to the christian.
Mike
CBX,
I understand the point you are trying to make, I just thoroughly disagree with us. This is really the area of importance. What is prophecy and are there different types and stamdards between Testaments? Don’t forget that Agabus clearly stated “This is what the Holy Spirit says…” You can’t get any more authoritative then that. I hold that his prophecy came true 100% accurate, thus cannot be used to support a “less authoritative” form of prophecy.
I know that charismatics would never intentionally call the Holy Spirit a liar. In fact, there are few groups who truly love the Holy Spirit as much. They just really need to consider the ramifications of proclaiming “Thus sayeth the Lord”. I hold that, if it isn’t in the Scriptures, God didn’t say it.
Puritan Lad,
Though I do believe that the office of prophet has not diminished today, I agree with you in that no “prophet” should ever declare: “Thus saith the Lord!” To do so would be to claim inspired and infallible authority that is not theirs to claim. There are too many men running around in the maistream “charismaniac” movement (e.g. TBN preachers, etc.) calling themselves prophets and not only are they greatly mistaken, but it is obvious they do not know the Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit of the Bible. Plus, I believe the main function of the gift of prophecy is to simply expound and proclaim God’s Word and Gospel through the power of the Spirit. Rarely, will there ever be any prophecies of a predictive nature.
Jim Jones spoke in tongues and accused people who knew
tongues ended before the close of the apostolic era, of
blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. The 900 some aught people
who comitted suicide with the Assembly of the god of
this world(2nd Cor.4:4)pastor(2nd Cor.11 vs 11-15)were
all strongly deluded, died and went to hell with Jim
Jones.
Jim Baker spoke in tongues as evidence of “another spirit”(2nd Cor.11:4), turned out to be a thief, liar,
whoremonger, and a Sodomite.
Edward Erving spoke in tongues as evidence of “another
spirit”(2nd Cor. 4:4)and was a practising unrepentant
Sodomite.
Ted Haggard….. of course you guessed it,.. SODOMITE.
The LARGEST SODOMITE CONGREGATION in the USA was started
in San Francisco by a Assembly of the god of this world
pastor who spoke in tongues as evidence of “another
spirit”.
Paul Crouch, whom John Hagee couldn’t cast the devil
out of turned out to be a……………..Yeah! you got
it right again, a Sodomite.
God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit,
(Ist John 5:7) has been finished with tongues before
Paul finished writing 1st Corinthians 13:13.
Satan’s Children the seed of the adulteror honor their
Father Satan The DEVIL, with signs and lying wonders
and vain babblings of excstatic unintelligable utterances of THE UNHOLY GHOST.
The real Holy Spirit(Romans 8:26) makes intercession
for a child of God with groanings which CANNOT BE UTTERED.
Guess What?………..If it CANNOT BE UTTERED, the
TONGUE CANNOT FLOP IT.
If Pentecostals ARE speaking in a tongue rather than
just faking it, it must be a tongue of FALLEN ANGELS.
Those who would suggest otherwise should ask themselves,
IF speaking in tongues was for today, Why was TONGUES
NOT included in the gifts that were extant in 64 AD in the scripture(Ephesians 4:11,12, and 13, which were gifts for the PERFECTING of the ministry.
(1st Cor 2:6, 1 st Cor 12:30, 1st Cor 13:8-10,),
(1st Cor.14:22, 1st Cor. 1:22)
For those who still suggest otherwise, by exclaiming the
Holy Ghost told you something else, and you know it was the Holy Ghost because you could FEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL it.
With charity I would beg you to just READ (1st Cor.1:32-
38)You may say, what about vs 39. My answer would be to
you with CHARITY. If Corinth would have followed the
Commandment of the Lord Jesus Christ, the WOMEN WOULD
OBEY JESUS CHRIST and JUST SHUT UP. The remainder of the assembly would have no further need to forbid
tongues, due to the fact those who were making the
trouble previously would have stopped.
Paul described that which ultimately became of Corinth
in Phillipians 3:18,19, and Ephesians 4:18,19.
Ephesus was commended by Jesus Christ himself for
TRYING THOSE who said they were apostles and found
them to be LIARS. Rev 2:2. The Tongues babblers
are THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN(Rev. 2:9) Their doctrine is the doctrine of the Nicolatians.
Quite frankly they pervert everything they lay their
hands on(Hebrews 6:1-2).
Please protect your children from them, as they transmit
evil by the touch.
Please check ever scripture reference I have given with
the Old Black Backed seven sealed BOOK God still honors
and Satan Hates…… the Authorised Version 1611
King James Holy Bible.
Remember Tongues is the one thing that bonds all
apostates together across the former boundaries of
denominations. Roman Catholics speak with the long
floppy tongues too and anyone who knows their Bible
is Certain that Revelation 17:5 is written on the
forehead of the Roman Catholic Church. All the
charismatics are coming home to their MOTHER , whom Jesus Called a GREAT WHORE.
BEWARE OF THEM
Sincerely, from a sorry old BLOOD WASHED SAVED SINNER
(1st Timothy 1:15)
This is ammo for a Bible Believing Christian to fight
the enemies of the cross of Christ, whose god is their belly(they always claim some kind of gut feeling), whose glory is in their shame(IT IS A SHAME FOR A WOMAN
TO SPEAK IN THE CHURCH), Pentecostals do glory in such
shameful misbehavior due to the fact that 99% of the time IT IS A WOMAN babbling the syllaballlistic jibber
jabber in what they call the church where they glory in
making their attempt to make a LIAR out ou the Holy
Ghost.
When the Charismatic starts talking alot of slop about
the former and latter rain of Joel, REMEMBER that the two real PROPHETS in Revelation 11 vs 6 will shut off
the rain for 3 and one half years, at the end of their
ministry it will rain again and it will be LITERAL
WET RAIN. There is the former and latter rain of Joel.
Always believe the scripture and allow the Real HOLY
SPIRIT to interperet scripture with scripture.
NEVER BELIEVE A CHARISMATIC. If one says there will be
a drought, get your hip waders out and be prepared for a flood. If one says that ghost told them a cold front
is on the way……get prepared for a heat wave.
When they talk about the baptism of fire, DO NOT WASTE
TIME ON THEM. The same Jesus Christ that baptises a
bloodbought child of God in Holy Spirit immediately
upon being born again(Titus 3:5) Is the same one John
the Baptist spoke of who will baptise unbelievers in a
LAKE OF FIRE. They will really get slain by the spirit
then. AMEN. Matthew 7:21-23, a vivid description of
people who claim to Prophecy in tongues and cast out
devils.
FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH, HOLDING FAST THE FAITHFUL WORD AS YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT.
Beware of those who always place too much emphasis on
LOVE with lots of HUGS and KISSES.
READ PROVERBS 7 VERY SLOW, THEN PROVERBS 8 VERY SLOW
READ REVELATION 17 and 18 VERY SLOW. IN THAT ORDER
You will be light years ahead of charismatic decievers.
God bless those who love Jesus Christ in sincerity
and truth.
CBX,
I think we are talking apples and oranges here. I would agree with you in that “prophecy is to simply expound and proclaim God’s Word and Gospel through the power of the Spirit”. In some sense, preachers of the word are “prophets”. However, what is called the “charismatic gift of prophecy” is a different animal. That’s the gift I hold has ceased with the close of the canon.
I’d just like to introduce the following passage into evidence on behalf of women participating in public assemblies.
“And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head–it is as if her head were shaved.” I Corinthians 11:5.
Paul had no problem with women speaking in church, despite some people’s belief that “it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church.”
You can insist on their wearing head coverings if you so wish.
Paul endorsed women’s praying and prophesying in the assembly. And Philip had seven daughters who prophesied.
“Where the corpse is, the vultures will gather.”
Ist Corinthians 14:32-38
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the
prophets.
For God is not the author of confusion but of peace,
as in all churches of the saints.
Let your women keep silence in the churches:
for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they
are commanded to be under
obedience, also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their
husbands at home: for it is a shame for a woman to speak
in the church.
What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
If any man thinketh himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I
write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
But if any man be ignorant let him be ignorant.
Ignorant people who diliberately refuse to RIGHTLY
DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH, have permission from the
Lord(2nd Timothy 2:15, 2nd Peter 2:16) to go staright
to hell for choosing to pervert the truth.
1st Corinthians 11:5 does not give a lady permission
to prophecy in the church, nor even remotely suggest
that such would ever become permissible.
Contrary to the misguided twisting and wresting of the
scriptures in the previous post the WORDS OF GOD stand
in opposition as follows in the scriptures(Hebrews 4:12)
READ IT!
Jezebel in Revelation 2:20 undoubtedly did not believe
one word said in 1st Corinthians 14:32-38, nor has any
pentecostal since 1906.
Charismatics are raging waves of the sea foaming out
their shame(JUDE 12,13) IT IS A SHAME FOR A WOMAN TO
SPEAK IN THE CHURCH(1st Corinthians 14:35)
Titus 2:1-5 READ IT!
1st Timothy 2:7-15 ,Paul was not lying. All charismatics
ARE patholicigal LIARS(Revelation 2:2) READ THE VERSES.
I love the Lord Jesus Christ who saved my soul in 1972,
and sealed my with the Holy Spirit before I got up off
my knees at 11:55 AM in a Baptist Church where he washed my sins away in his own PRESCIOUS BLOOD.
Exactly two weeks following to the day, Satan sent a
pentecostal woman working for her Father the Devil, to
attempt screw up my mind. I have been faught
against these enemies of the cross of Christ since then.
I was busy trying to win souls when Satan sent that woman to try to convince me that I was not saved unless
I could speak with the long floppy tongue of the ghost
she and those like her are terminally POSESSED WITH.
Praise be to Jesus Christ who WASHED AWAY MY SINS WITH
HIS BLOOD, the charismatic clown could not lick off of me
with her long floppy lying tongue the Eternal Security
Jesus Christ gave me for free.
There are some enemies indeed for whom we should pray
that they will get saved, but the charismatics are the
enemies of the cross of Christ and we would fair much
better to obey Jesus Christ concerning the likes of the
Tongues Crew(1st John 4:23,24,.. 2nd John 1-13)
A Born Again Bloodwashed Saved Sinner, should never
“dialogue” with a charismatic(Proverbs 7:24-27)
A Born Again Bloodwashed Saved Sinner should REBUKE
them(Titus 1:13).
The FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING pleased God in the person
of Jesus Christ(1st Corinthians 1:21)to save them that believe, NOT SPEAKING IN TONGUES, NOT BY FALLING IN THE
FLOOR, NOT BY GOOD WORDS AND FAIR SPEECHES, NOT BY
SEEKING AFTER A SIGN, NOT BY BEING CAREFUL TO NEVER
OFFEND ANYONE, NOT BY DIALOGUE.
Fight them with the SWORD OF THE WORD OF GOD.
That is the only way a few of them may be delivered from the strong delusion they wollow in.
2nd Thess. 2:7-12.
The real Holy Spirit(John 14:17,26) convicts lost
sinners for the sin of LYING by twisting the
scriptures to promote a LIE. AMEN?
Get out of Acts of the Apostles, and READ Romans through
Philemon 10 times in a OLD KING JAMES HOLY BIBLE. After
you have done this first, Then read Acts of the Apostles
slowly and studiously. Paul did not get saved in
Acts 2, Paul DID NOT preach Acts 2. ALL the Tongues in
ACTS 2 were KNOWN Languages for unbelieving JEWS who
required a SIGN(1st Cor 1:22, 1st Corinthians 14:22)
The 2 other instances of tongues in Acts of the Apostles
Jews were present who would not believe salvation was
now also for the Gentiles unless they saw a SIGN to
confirm authenticity form God(1st Corinthians 1:22 and
14:22).
There is a “spirit” in charismatics that makes them
comfortable telling a lie. That “spirit” is the spirit
that works in the children of disobedience. That spirit
which posesses a charismatic is a LYING spirit. That
spirit is from the god of this world(2nd Cor 4:4).
That spirit takes great pleasure in worshipping of
angels[(Colossians 2:18)READ IT], evidenced by the
great emphasis of charismatics placed on Tongues of
Angels.
Dialogue with charismatics will cost a BLOODWASHED
SAVED SINNER rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ.
(Colossians 2:18) Read it once again slow.
The Gospel of the Grace of God is 1 st Corinthians 15:1-4, Romans 3-5, and 10:13. Ephesians 2:8-9.
That is not what the charismatic believes.
Galatians 1:6-9, 2nd Corinthians 11:4.
Sincerely with the Love of Jesus Christ in my heart,
from a sorry old no good BLOODWASHED SAVED SINNER,
Brandon
When a charismatic falsly exegetes the book of Joel
spiritualizing the Former and Latter rain into
tongues and alleged reinstating of the signs of an
Apostle spoken of in the PAST TENSE(2nd Cor.12:12).
Jude was inspired by God to testify against these
charismatic maniacs almost 2000 years before America
became infected with their presence.
Jude 12 ” These are spots in your feasts of charity,
when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of
the winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit,
twice dead, plucked up by the roots;”
Brandon
Brandon,
I think you’re getting what you see on TV, crazy sects, the Third Wave and Reformed Charismatics mixed up together. That’s not very fair at all.
As a Reformed Baptist Charismatic I believe in and adhere to Scripture alone (sola scriptura) as the only infallible and inerrant rule of faith; the Bible alone is the Word of God. I affirm the 5 solas of the Reformation and the 5 points of Calvinism, as well as the Creeds and Catechisms (Apostle’s, Nicene, Athanasian, Westminster Confession, 1689 Baptist Confession, etc.).
I believe that the gifts of the Spirit are still being distributed severly as God wills throughout the Body of Christ. I believe God still heals the sick, that He can and may raise the dead if He so chooses, as well as save blind and totally depraved sinners for His own Glory.
To say that all Charismatics are liars is true; so are all Baptist and Presbyterians and AG’s and every other sinner in the world. The difference between the saved and the unsaved is that the saved not only seek to tell the truth but to understand, embrace, obey, and exalt the truth. We seek to kill sin through the power of the Spirit and obedience to the Word of God. We hate sin and love righteousness. We are dead to ourselves and it is Christ who lives in us. It His will not our own we seek to do, for we were bought with a price.
“Dialogue with Charismatics will cost a BLOODWASHED SAVED SINNER rewards at the judgment Seat of Christ.”
I don’t mean this sarcasticely: but where did you pull that one from? Dude, that’s brutal.
I guess then we can say bye bye to Wayne Grudem, C.J. Mahaney, John Piper, Josh Harris, John Wesley, Marc Driscoll, Tim Keller, myself and many others who believe in the present day work of the Holy Spirit through the gifts because according to YOU we are all going to hell. Every one of these men, as far as I know, preach the GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST as well as believe God is still working in various ways throughout His church.
I believe the part you trip over is that you assume that all who call themselves Charismatic believe the same thing. You also assume that because someone believes in and practices the gifts of the Spirit in a modern context that we have all together abandoned the essentials of Christianity and saving faith. My friend, I would definitely consider reconsidering the possibility that you are unfairly heaping all those who believe the ‘charismata’ is for today in to one group. That’s not right and terribly unfair.
Brandon says
There is no such thing as a “Baptist Charismatic”. I have found wolves hiding under the clothing of the
sheep who called themselves “Bapticostals”. They turned
out to ungodly men who were before old ordained unto
their ungodly condemnation. They are Wolves who crept
in unawares. Most of that which was Baptist in the past
has become infected with the plague of Pentecostalism.
Romans was written by Paul, began circulation before
Luke completed writing Acts of the Apostles. The
Mystery of Iniquity was already at work IN CORINTH,
where Paul being RUDE,and CRAFTY caught the phony
apostles(2nd Cor 11:11-15)at work in CORINTH. Paul
WARNED the the Thessalonian saints of that which he
witnessed with his own two eyes at Corinth from where he TO the Thessalonians. Paul spent more time with
Corinth than among the other churches combined. Paul
really loved those people so much it broke his heart
to finally have to come to the conclusion he did and warn others what happens to a church that wont get
rid of charismatics(Philippians 3:18,19).
All serious BIBLE students sould fervently study the
chronology of the Pauline epistles of Grace.
That which is perfect IS COME and WAS ALREADY COME
in PAUL, and Timothy(1st Corinthians 2:6, Philippians
4:15, and LUKE CHAPTER 1 vs 3[PERFECT UNDERSTANDING]).
Shut up and read those verses! CEASE with the babbling
DUDE, VATO! COMPRENDE AMIGO! Get yourself some underst-anding before you embarass yourself licking your way into a corner.
The seed of the adulteror and whore walk through the
earth with thier TONGUES. The sons of the sorceress,
the seed of the ADULTEROR AND WHORE draw draw out the
WHAT?, the tongue?????(Isaiah 57:1-9. Psalms 73:9 READ
THE SCRIPTURES, There is PROPHECY in the SCRIPTURES.
The Testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of PROPHECY,
and emphatically NOT TONGUES.
Luke had a perfect understanding of the cessation of the
SIGN-GIFTS, So did Paul who according to Luke in Acts
of the Apostles for a limited period of time in one
DISPENSATION could HEAL people of their infirmities.
As we move forward in time Paul suggests medical advice
for Timothy, AND Paul had to leave Tromphimus at Miletum
in sickness because the SIGN-GIFT of HEALING by the laying on of the hands was LEFT BEHIND. Imagine that!
Hebrews are JEWS,…….Jews REQUIRED SIGNS,……..Jews
were instructed to leave those things in MARK 16:15-18
BEHIND(Hebrews 6:1,2)
baptisms plural in Hebrews 6 becomes baptism singular
in Ephesians 4:5…….Imagine that!
Romans 8:26
“Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities;
for we know not what to pray for as we ought: but
the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with
groanings which cannot be uttered.”
Now!……..one more time with CHARITY.
If it CANNOT BE UTTERED, the TONGUE CANNOT FLOP IT!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAmen!
The “SPIRIT” of Romans 8:26 is the same one in John 14:
26,27 that brings what Jesus Christ BACK TO MY REMEMBERANCE.
Sincerely, with the Love of Jesus Christ my risen LORD
and ETERNAL SAVIOR in my heart.
nuff said,
Brandon
Paul wrote 1st and 2nd Thessalonians from Corinth of the MYSTERY OF INIQUITY he witnessed AT Corinth.
Paul wept tears warning the Saints in Philippians of what had ultimately become of Corinth where all it took
for Satan was a little leaven to leaven the whole lump
of Corinth.
Matthew 13:33 A WOMAN(babbling in excstatic unintelligable utterances)
Matthew 13:39 The womans husband is the Devil.
Proverbs 7:18 She makes much adoo about LOVE, not charity.
Proverbs 7:19 She claims her husband is a goodman, SHE
IS A LIAR, correct her once and for all with Romans 3:12
Her husband is a DEVIL(Judas Iscariot) had a bag of
money too, and took a LONG JOURNEY to his own special
place and wont come home until the day appointed. On his appointed day he will come as a ROMAN CATHOLIC POPE
making much of signs especially the SIGN-GIFT of tongues and healing.
Now can anyone see clearly whay charismatics”DIALOGUE”
ecumenically with ROME.
The Woman of Proverbs 7 has a bed that is said to be
DECKED(Proverbs 7:16)
The Woman of Revelation 17:4 DECKED.
Forget the greek Jesus Christ corrected with the
ENGLISH in The AV1611 King James Holy Bible.
OBEY JESUS CHRIST and IGNORE the falsly so called
Scholars and textual critics.
God bless those who Love JESUS CHRIST in sincerity
and TRUTH.
Brandon
Im sorry, I humbly disagree with you; I am a Reformed Baptist Charismatic whether you accept that or not.
Let me explain:
Reformed -Five solas, Five Points.
Baptist -Only new believers undergo full body immersion in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19).
Charismatic -I believe in the continuation of the present day work of the Holy Spirit through the five-fold ministry and the operation of the spiritual gifts (Eph. 4:11 & 1 Co. 12).
You did say, however: “Dialogue with charismatics will cost a BLOODWASHED SAVED SINNER rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ.”
Think about it; what is this dialogue we’ve had gonna cost you?
Really though, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Case closed. Thanks for the interesting dialogue though.
POPE=Personification Of Pure Evil
ROME=Realm Of Most Evil
1901 Rome leavened the USA with a PERVERTED BIBLE.
Matthew 13:33,39.
1906 Revival of the UNHOLY GHOST begins to destroy
the Body of Christ with sensationalism(SENSUAL).
The unholy ghost tongues movement was LEAVEN, ordaining
UNGODLY women into scriptural positions of Pastor with
ABOSUTELY NO REGARD AS TO WHAT THE WORD OF GOD HAS
ALREADY SAID AGAINST THEIR UNSCRIPTURAL PRACTICE.
When the Bible says a little leaven leavens the
whole lump, the HOLY BIBLE IS TRUE.
The dangerous movement which has done the most to
advance this unscriptural practice in our once great
nation has an unbroken connection to TONGUES.
Brandon
No dialogue on my part here. Just good old fashioned
Biblical REBUKE THEM SHARPLY (Titus 1:11-15)
If a man and, I did say A MAN had the scriptural defined
SIGN-GIFT of tongues, what on earth is he doing in the
USA hiding his gift under a buschel inside a church
building when there are plenty of UNBELIEVING JEWS
in ISRAEL for whom the SIGN-GIFT of TONGUES was
intended???????????
Doesn’t that sound GREEDY and SELFISH just like that
which was going on at Corinth where Jesus Christ had
PAUL REBUKE THEM.
If the SIGN-GIFT of HEALING was still an extant and
operative gift for the PERFECTING of the ministry,
why are not those who suggest it is walking through
hospitals and healing sick little children who are
SUFFERING IN AGONY, for free(CHARITY). Just think of
all the lost sinners who would believe on Christ as a
result of CHARITY. No instead they hide under a
bushel basket of a church house.
I believe in divine healing,…I really do, because
Jesus Christ has HEALED ME. Funny thing though, Christian brothers and sisters were PRAYING(Romans 8:26)
and NO PHONY CHARISMATIC FAKE APOSTLE LAID THEIR
GREEDY HANDS ON ME. Even my doctor said it had to
be of the Lord. It was expected of me TO DIE.
Jesus Christ had MERCY ON ME.
Satan will perform the miracle of healing and already
does. Matthew 24:24, 2nd Thess 2:9.
Pharoah’s magicians could perform most but not all
of that which God had invested in Moses to perform.
Judas Iscariot could heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, AND CAST OUT DEVILS(Matthew 10:1-8)but
guess what?………(John 6:70)Jesus Christ said
Judas Iscariot was A DEVIL.
Can Satan cast out Satan? you betcha!
Charismatics EXCHANGE DEVILS with each other all the
time. That is one of the reasons they stay BLIND to
the FACT that the SIGN GIFT of tongues CEASED BEFORE
the close of the cannon of HOLY SCRIPTURE.
Hastala Shouandi Shalarooosa Shuulawanda Booboowaseeea
Didyia Didyia Didyia Lapata Shandala Hasta Unti Didyia
WaaaseeeeYa Shandala Mahmah Papatahtah Boobowaseeeia
OOOOOOOOOHWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
You know what the interperation that is dont cha!
VAIN BABBLING.
Please allow me to say this with CHARITY!
Making fun of devil posessed idiots who take great
pleasure trying to make a liar out of Jesus Christ
IS NOT BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST.
God Bless all those who love Jesus Christ in sincerity
and TRUTH.
Brandon
Good day!
Hi CBX,
I just wanted you to know I appreciate your pearls.
Remember Proverbs 26:4, my friend.
Whyte Stonne,
Thanks for the encouragement brother. Be blessed!
“Can Satan cast out Satan? you betcha!”
“Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.
And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?” Matt. 12:25-26
These words from our Lord Jesus disagree with you Brandon.
I agree that there are false prophets and false christs that if possible they will even deceive the elect.
But I don’t believe Satan casts out Satan, since our Lord said so.
Will Satan’s earthly kingdom endure forever?
Ask yourself that question!
If your answer turns out to be NO, you have indeed reached the appropriate conclusion.
“How then shall his kingdon stand”?
No wonder Satan is working so hard to get every one
to lay their doctrinal differences aside, and come
together in concert based upon their mutual commonalaties through “dialogue”. Dialogue is the
“buzz word” of the ecumenical movement. The Pope is
the ring leader of the ecumenical movement. The
“participants”, or more appropriately “victims” are
fortold of by Jesus Christ in Revelation 17:8. At least
some of us can clearly see what the Pope is using for
BAIT, to catch sucker fish to place upon his ecumenical
stringer. Tongues is the bait on the hook, and sadly
sucker fish are swallowing it whole then reeled in.
What do the vast majority of the victims hold in common?
Answer: Acceptance of extracannoniacle revelation
through the use of speacking in tongues.
Hebrews 11:1 suggests that before the book of Hebrews
was written faith for a Jew who became a Christian
WAS past tence, connected to SIGNS some thing one could
SEE. After that verse was written in 64AD we moved into
the dispensation of GRACE. Signs are no longer needed.
Hebrews 11:1
“Now faith is the substance of hoped for, the evidence
of things not seen.”
Let us examine the things we can see by what has been
said in the verse.
Can you see with your eyes a woman in a church claiming
to “prophesy in tongues”? Answer: YES
Can you see in the church someone who claims to “cast
out devils” from another who is alledgedly posessed.
Answer: YES If you could see it, you also would have
seen the devil make his exit toward his next host.
REMEMBER THAT HERD OF SWINE. You had better LOOK at
Acts 19:13 as well.
Can you see with your eyes in the confines of a church
building an alleged “anointed healer” laying his hands
on one who suffers from an infirmity. Answer: YES
Can you see with your eyes in the confines of church
building a nutcase handling snakes. Answer: YES
Can you see with your eyes within the confines of a
church building people drinking something laced with
deadly poison and expecting to continue to live.
Answer: YES
Matthew 16:4
“A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and no sign shall be given unto it, but the sign of of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.”
Jonas PREACHED to Ninevah, NO charismatic phenomena was
involved.
Today we live in the most wicked and adulterous generation which has existed since the inception of
time.
Tongues was for a SIGN to unbelieving Jews who required
something they could SEE to confirm it was TRULY of God.
When one who desires a SIGN today,and tongues was for a
SIGN(1st Corinthians 1:22, 1st Corinthians 14:22), those
who seek a sign are opening themselves up come under
the influence of “seducing spirits”. You would be wise
to consider the fact that Satan is ever present to
accomadate those who seek after a sign(2nd Thess.2:9)
In the light of Hebrews 11:1, if you can see it, you
would fare well to BEWARE of it, because it is evedintly
NOT of the FAITH(Ephesians 4:5)that Jude said we should
ernestly contend for(Jude 3,4).
There is much more scripture in the Holy Bible that
proves beyond any reasonable doubt that the charismatic
movement is Satanic, than there is to support the virgin
birth or our Lord and Risen Savior Jesus Christ.
Sincerely with the love of Jesus Christ in my heart
from a sorry old no good, no count Saved Sinner washed
in the BLOOD OF THE LAMB.
Brandon
Correction:
Hebrews 11:1
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,
the evidence of things not seen.”
Just remember that the next time sume nut starts
talking slop about “the initial evidence baptism
of the Holy Ghost being TONGUES”.
Hyme-naeus and Phi-letus were from Corinth.
(2nd Timothy 1:14-19, and 1st Timothy 1;18-20).
Corinth, the most carnal church was rebuked for misuse
of TONGUES.
Someone BEWITCHED the Galatians(Galations 3:1) with
another gospel, another Jesus, another spirit.
Galations 2:21 READ IT! 21 words 3X7.
Jews were UNDER THE LAW. The Gospel to the circumcision
WAS NOT the Gospel to the uncircumcision.
Trying to mix the two gospels together results in
frustrating the Grace of God with WORKS and SIGNS
that WERE for Jews under the law.
That is EXACTLY what we see in the Charismatic Arena
today, ISN’T THAT TRUE?
Brandon,
“Two gospels”?
Are you saying there is one gospel for the Jews and the Gentiles, and that the Galatians were teaching there were two gospels?
I think I understand you, but the way you stated it is unclear.
The gospel that was to the Jews in Acts 2 and the same in the discussion of the “gospel to the circumcision” in Galations 2 committed to Peter and crew is OVER.
The gospel to the circumcision is a dispensation of the
gospel to NO ONE ANY MORE.
The Jews who becomes a Christian today are saved the same way as a Gentile. The Gospel by which we ARE saved and ARE NOT working to get saved is Ephesians 2:8,9,10.
We who are saved today DO NOT BOAST, God had great mercy on us to PROVOKE the CHOSEN to a JEALOUSY for the
dispensation of GRACE, before the Great Tribulation
begins.
When the Great Tribulation begins after the rapture
there will no longer be salvation by grace through
faith, salvation for JEW in the Great Tribulation
will have to be coupled with Faith in Christ + Works
and Commandment Keeping(ENDURING TO THE END TO STAY
SAVED), if they don’t really watch their step they
will loose salvation and get a ONE WAY TICKET TO HELL.
There will be no ETERNAL SECURITY in the Great Tribulation. I am so glad I live in the days of Grace.
There will be NO Grace in the Jacobs Time of Trouble.
donsands I hope this helped.
sincerely,
Brandon
Frustrating the “Gospel of the Grace of God” with
the “Gospel of the Kingdom” is a FATAL MISTAKE.
Any irreverant attempt to combine the two is GRAVE
ERROR, and a demonstration of REFUSAL to RIGHTLY DIVIDE
THE WORD OF TRUTH(2nd Timothy 2:15), and results in
another gospel, another Jesus, another spirit.
Galatians 1:6-9, and 2nd Corinthians 11:4.
All Charismatics are led by a spirit to make this
blunder.
Brandon,
Yes that helped me to see that we disagree.
I believe there’s only one true gospel. From before God created the universe, the good news was Christ crucified. He was the Lamb slain before the foundations of the world.
The way to salvation has always been by God’s grace alone through faith alone, and always will be.
I agree no one should ever tamper with the puity of the gospel of grace alone by faith alone. Amen
I also diagree with your eschatology, but that’s a lesser point, (not that it’s not an important subject), and not appropriate for this particular blog/post.
All for the Cross, Gal. 6:14
To: donsands
Grace, mercy and piece to you in Jesus Christ
being justified faith in his blood.
You don’t have to agree with me. Those us who name the name of Jesus Christ SHOULD agree with him.
Galatians 3:11
“But that no man is justified by the law in the sight
of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by
faith.”
Matthew 16:4
“A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but
the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them and
departed.”
Psalms 15:27
“He that is greedy of gain trouleth his own house;
but he that hateth gifts shall live.”
I think about those last two verses alot when I hear
charismatics talking about gifts, signs, and wonders.
I would politely ask you to dilligently consider those
two verses as well before you ever let one lay their
hands on you.
You and I have not “dialogued”, but rather corresponded.
Thank you donsands,
Thank the rest of you for putting up with me.
Beware of the Charismatic Movement, Yea! it is very evil.
God bless those of you who love the Lord Jesus Christ
in sincerity and truth.
To: The charismatics please stop running from the
truth.
1st Corinthians 15:1-4 IS THE GOSPEL. READ IT!
Romans Chapters 3,4,5 Please read it!
FREE GIFT, NO SIGNS
Romans 10:13 ASK Admit you are a sinner.
ASK Jesus to forgive you and save your
soul, wash your sins away in his
precious soul cleansing BLOOD.
Get out of the charismatic movement.
That will make Jesus happy.
he that hateth gifts shall live.
Correction: PEACE
I hope I spelled it right that time.
Please for give my error on placing wrong book above
as Psalms when I should have said PROVERBS
Proverbs 15:27
“He that is greedy of gain troubleth his own house;
but he that hateth gifts shall live.”
When the charismatics push reinstatement of those signs of an apostle and the SIGN-GIFT of tongues, you will
do very well to HATE their gifts, and be content with
such as you already have (Romans 5:1-5).
Thank You
Brandon,
Have you visited Sovereign Grace Ministries, (C J. Mahaney), who are continuists, but have a solid stance on all the basic truths of the Holy Scriptures as well?
If not, then I would encourage you to.
In the HOLY SCRIPTURES which I have a COPY of in the
UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE OF THE END TIME(ENGLISH)AV1611 King
James Holy Bible, The Holy Ghost who brings back to my
rememberance the things Jesus said(John 14:17,26), THE
SPIRIT OF TRUTH brings these words to my mind to define
what being FILLED with the SPIRIT IS.
Ephesians 5:15-21 64AD
“See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but
as wise,
Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but
be filled with the Spirit.
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual
songs , singing and making a melody in your heart to
the Lord.
Giving thanks for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.”
NOTE.. Paul was taught by revelation of JESUS CHRIST and
NOT BY some tongues babbling charismatic FOOL who is NOT
MY BROTHER. CHARISMATICS are unwise and FOOLS, they ARE
NOT MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN JESUS CHRIST, so I am not
the least little bit worried about calling them exactly
what they are(FOOLS).
The Spirit of truth dictates that being filled with the
Spirit is speaking to myself in psalms(Psalms ARE IN THE
BIBLE) and hymns(in the oldtime hymnal), and spiritual
songs like JESUS PAID IT ALL, ALL TO HIM I OWE ,SIN HAD
LEFT A CRIMSON STAIN, HE WASHED ME WHITE AS SNOW .
or “Blessed Be the Name”, “Amazing Grace”,”There is a
Fountain FILLED with BLOOD, drawn from Emmanuels veins,
and SINNERS plunged beneath that flood, loose ALL their
guilty stains” ect.,ect.,.
I was not told to speak in tongues, sing in tongues, pray in tongues or anything else a carnal selfrighteous
sensual egotistical fleshpot Popelicking nutcase Bible
perverting charismatic maniac lost hellbound sinner of
the worst sort may suggest.
I may be a hillbilly, maybe not the smartest rock in the box, but Praise be to God the Father in the name
of Jesus Christ his Son, my risen Lord and Savior and
Eternal Savior, I am a sorry old blood washed saved
sinner washed in the blood of the LAMB, sealed with
the Holy Spirit of God and couldn’t loose the Free Gift
not even if I tried to(John 10:28,29).
All nondenominational continuationists are LED BY THE
DEVIL. Speak in tongues of the UNholy ghost.
Satan wraps lies with solid Biblical Fundamentals.
That which remains under the pretty package is
ROTTON TO THE CORE.
I am a BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIAN, not a “fundamentalist”.
I am a BIBLE BAPTIST KJB ONLY
I am an old man, who has for many years studied my
King James Holy Bible, and because I believe the
BOOK by which I have TRIED charismatic continuationist
with the WORDS OF GOD, I cannot be moved.
I shall not be, I shall not be , I shall not be moved.
I have to keep fighting the devil posessed egomanic
tongues vain babblers until I catch my flight out of
here to meet Jesus Christ in the air(1st Thess 4:12-18,
1st Cor. 15-45-52). I expect a FULL REWARD for fighting the good fight of faith.
I am resolved no longer to linger, charmed by the worlds
delight(tongues), things that are higher, things that
are nobler, these have allured my sight.
I will hasten to him , hasten so glad and free,
Jesus greatest highest, I will gome to the.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAmen!
Brandon,
Dost thou readeth any other versions of the Bible? I hope thou art not KJV only. I trow that thou art.
God bless thee and thy family.
I have many of those perversions at my disposal just
in case I ever run of toilet tissue after the supermarket closes., I am also very aware of the
currupt manuscripts from which they were tranlated
by evil men and seducers like Nestle, Nida, Westcott,
Hort, Metzger, Weust, Aland, ect.,ect., and how that what they is the 2mostcurrupt manuscripts in existance one of which was found in a
trash can in a monestary, and the other being found in
the Pope’s library.. I am very aware of how those men and men like them believe in correcting the King James
Bible with Roman Catholic manuscripts from which the
King James Holy Bible did not come from.
People like your self get very upset with people like
me and call us RUCKMANITES.
I am very aware of the word changes the perverted bibles
contain which have enabled the old great whore of Rome
to ruin Biblical Christianity in America using the
charismatics to do the job for her.
I am not ignorant of the devil and his devises.
I cannot type, esp on this computer near as well as I can read. Remember, I am only a hillbilly saved sinner
with a sword (Hebrews 4:12)The AV1611 KJB is my SWORD,
to do battle with the enemies of the cross who don’t fight with a real SWORD but rather bean bags. I realize
their is only one book on this earth today REALY and
TRULY proves the Charismatic movement is evil. I have a
copy of the HOLY SCRIPTURES that I can hold in my hand
and fight the hordes of Hell with. The book I have
IS the only one in print today that says “idol shepherd”
in Zechariah 11:17 thereby proving the Pope who all
the tongues babblers are ecumenically yoked to is the
Anti-Christ of Revelation 13:18. All the little bean
bag perversions help hide the Popes identity by substit-tuting the word “worthless” in the place of “idol”.
I have with the help of my Lord Jesus Christ been
successful in showing to any reader of all these posts
what this is all about. When a charismatic can no longer
defend his movement because his movement has been
EXPOSED by the LIGHT OF THE WORDS OF GOD IN A KING JAMES
HOLY BIBLE, the charismatic can only attack the KJB itself. The THE HOLY BIBLE HAS WON, not me.
The words in the King James Holy Bible are God’s
Pure and Perfect words. The country was blessed with
Christians who came here with the Old KJB and they
DID NOT speak with TONGUES. Rome and her cohorts resented that fact. They set out to ruin the USA by
leavening the USA with perverted bibles in 1901 ,
5 years later the “confusion of tongues” spread like
fire from HELL.
Get yourself a COPY of the HOLY SCRIPTURES in the
universal language of the END TIME. AV1611 KJB.
Even a hillbilly like me can understand it,
Get a WEBSTERS ENGLISH DICTIONARY, You don’t have to
throw your income down the toilet trying to learn the
DEAD tongue of Greek.
I should have stayed with the subject at hand.
Shalom.
I just found this quote from Lesslie Newbigin. It seems appropriate in a discussion on “sign gifts.” I’m NOT taking a position against sign gifts, but it does relate to how the credibility of the gospel, how it can be confirmed today.
Lesslie Newbigin:
“How can this strange story of God made flesh, of a crucified Savior, of resurrection and new creation become credible for those whose entire mental training has conditioned them to believe that the real world is the world which can be satisfactorily explained and managed without the hypothesis of God? I know of only one clue to the answering of that question, only one real hermeneutic of the gospel: a congregation which believes it.”
To which I would add: “… and lives it.”
“All men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13:35)
A little off the subject here, but I have to make a few comments.
“The words in the King James Holy Bible are God’s
Pure and Perfect words.”
Brandon, Are you aware that the founders of America considered the KJV to be the corrupted Bible? They used the Geneva Bible, considering the KJV to be the Church of England version, supporting the Divine Right of Kings. It’s the KJV that is one of the newer Bibles in this country.
Are you aware that the Original KJV has gross grammatical errors in it, such as the incorrect plural form of seraph (KJV has seraphims, whereas the correct word is seraphim)?
Are you aware that King James was a homosexual?
Are you aware that the KJV says that fathers “nurse” their suckling children? (Numbers 11:12)
I’m not anti-KJV, but there are much better (and accurate Translations out there.
Of course, I’ve heard the argument that the KJV is the only true translation, since it’s the one Paul used
Proverbs 7:13-21
So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent
face said unto him,
I have peace offerings with me; this day have I paid my
vows.
Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek
thy face, and I have found thee.
I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, and with carved works, with fine linen of Eqypt.
NOTE:…..all perverted bibles Rome creates are rooted
in “Hesychian” aka “Alexandrian” manuscripts. Alexandria
is in EGYPT. EGYPT is in Africa. Africa is the DARK
continent. Rome is responsible for the DARK AGES.
I have perfumed my bed with myrr, aloes and cinnamon.
(WATCH OUT! here comes the LOVE)
Come let us take our fill of love until the morning:
let us solace ourselves with loves.
(Lucipher is the son of the “morning” in Isaiah 14:12
and I DARE YOU to find out what the NIV did to that
verse).
For the goodman is not at home, he is gone on a long journey:
He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed.
With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him.
(LIKE the words in the previous post)
READ Daniel 11:32-35. AND I DO MEAN READ IT RIGHT NOW!
(Acts of the Apostles 1:18), Judas iscariot took a long
journey too, and coincidentally was connected to a BAG
of MONEY[The cat is out of the bag(Charismatics and Cat-HO-lics and Tongues], his bowels burst out. Bowels are
in the Belly. We would be prudent to assume his god was
in his belly and his glory was in his shame.
2nd Corinthians 11:11,12
Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off
occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein
they glory , they may be found even as we.
Galatians 5:12
I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
No doubt God is love, but God HATES false doctrine and
calls his children he loves to BE YE SEPERATE.
(2nd Corinthians 6:11-17, and Revelation 18:4) READ IT!
DON’T BE STUPID(Proverbs 7:22-27) READ IT!
Proverbs 1:6
To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise and their dark sayings.
Sincerly and with the love of Jesus Christ in my heart
for the TRUE BROTHERS AND SISTERS in the faith,
Brandon
To: Puritan Lad.
King James was not a Sodomite. If you had done your
home work you would find that lie was propagated by a
devout Roman Catholic Popelicker who hated the King
James Holy Bible that wounded his Mother, MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABIMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Preaching from the King James Holy Bible brought the greatest revival there ever was, “The Great Awakening”.
Millions of catholics believed on Jesus Christ, got
saved became Christians and CEASED to be Catholic. They
obeyed Jesus Christ and CAME OUT OF HER(Rev,18:4).
Therefore it should come as no great suprise that a
Roman Catholic would write trash such as the suppositious intimation to which you are making
reference, knowing that a sucker like yourself is born
every minute and would choose to remain in ignorance,
rather than labor to find the truth.
Do not remain a LAD(Child) Grow up and be a MAN.
(1st Corinthians 13:11-13)
By the devine providence of Almighty God, more copies of the AV1611 King James Holy Bible have been printed
that the total of all the perverted bibles printed even
until this very day.
I just wonder if one can go to the Dollar Store and
purchase a Geneva Bible today!
Maybe the young lad can tell us all where we may go
to a store in our respective towns and purchase
a Geneva Bible!
Maybe the young lad can tell us how much it would
cost to acquire the Geneva Bible!
Maybe the young lad could tell us all about a man
who dearly loved Jesus Christ with all his heart and soul by the name of Obadiah Holmes, and not forget
who beat the man up and why!
Maybe someone can tell us all with the flood of
perverted bibles in America that all claim to be
easier to understand why our once great nation is
is in such an ungodly mess.
Maybe some one could tell us what the
“New England Primer” was based upon.
Proverbs 11:1
A False balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.
Lad, maybe you should read the other side of the story.
“King James Unjustly Accused”
use any search engine
Standing on the side of the cessationists,
I also challange each and every on of you to
look at “when that which is [perfect] is come”
the word “perfect” in each instance that it appears in
a King James Holy Bible throughout the New Testament.
Make note of it!
Then get any other NEW AGE PERVERSION like the NKJV
and see just how many times they substituted the word
“perfect” with “mature “.
After you have completed this little task, ask yourself
HONESTLY, why did they do it?
Was the word “perfect” really to hard to understand?
Or were they hiding something for their Father the
Devil, that their father the Devil knew you could
figure out if you just stuck with the ENGLISH, in the
Time Honored ROARING LION of the Protestant English
Reformation the Authorised Version 1611 King James
Holy Bible.????????????????????????????????????????
Ask yourself why was I made to read Shakespear in
school and tested and on that which I was made to
read to make sure I understood it, but my Professor
thinks I am too stupid to understand the archaic words
an a King James Holy Bible, even though they can be found in my Websters English Dictionary.
1st Timothy 6:10 is the answer.
Read the testimony of Dr. Frank Logsden at
http://www.av1611.org
Thanks for the info Brandon.
God Bless…
To: Puritan Lad
God Bless you too.
Please remember
All the new age perverted bibles are based on the
two most corrupt manuscripts of which ROME is in
posession of. They are EGYPTIAN TYPE texts from
Alexandria. Egypt is in Africa. Africa is the DARK
continent. God called his children OUT of Egypt.
We owe much grattitude to the Roman Catholic Church
of Satan for the DARK AGES, whilst they kept people
in IGNORANCE and DARKNESS. Their first perversion
that they LEAVENED America with, was withheld from
their own members until I believe somewhere around
1960, I may be incorrect as to the exact year, but
nevertheless we know for sure Rome is responsible for
murdering millions of REAL Christians who believed the
HOLY SCRIPTURES and rejected the Satanic dogmas of
the OLD MOTHER WHORE.
Read “History of the Reformation of the Sixteenth
Century” written by J.H. Merle D’Aubigne
I personally as a hillbilly have read it twice so I
reckon some of you more educated folks can read it at least once.
In closing and with careful consideration of the above
facts my desire would be to let the Lord Jesus Christ
have the Final say so since his words in a AV1611
King James Holy Bible are THE FINAL AUTHORITY.
Luke 11:34,35,36
“The light of the body is the eye; therefore when thine
eye is single, thy whole body is full of light; but when
thine eye is evil, thy body is full of darkness.
Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be
not darkness.
If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the
bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.”
Brandon,
You are defintely focused. Do you realize that there are hundreds of Bibles out there in hundreds of different languages reaching the whole world for Christ.
Hebrew Bibles, Greek Bibles, Nepalese Bibles, Chinese Bibles, etc. etc. These are translated from the original texts, and then printed in that nations appropriate language.
Also, do you ever read the original languages: Hebrew and Greek?, where there are no chapters and verses. In Hebrew you actually read from left to right, and from the back of the book to the front.
I also would like to encourage you to check out James White’s book, “The King James Only Controversy. You can purchase one of his books from his website. It may truly help bring some balance into your life, even if you still disagree.
May the Lord bless and keep you.
to: donsands
I might be slow, but I am LIGHT YEARS ahead of thee!
Now with CHARITY, the word all the perverted bibles
changed to love because the kind of love they have
is described in(Proverbs 7:18), I would kindly
challange thee to read “The James White Controversy”
Parts I and II at
http://www.av1611.org
I am done here.
also part 7 of the same at:
http://www.av1611.org/kjv/ripwhit7.html
http://www.av1611.org/kjv/ripwhit1.html
http://www.av1611.org/kjv/ripwhit2.html
http://www.av1611.org/kjv/ripwhit3.html
http://www.av1611.org/kjv/ripwhit4.html
http://www.av1611.org/kjv/ripwhit5.html
http://www.av1611.org/kjv/ripwhit6.html
http://www.av1611.org/kjv/ripwhit7.html
BOO!
Brandon,
You never seem to answer my questions, but simply reply back with confusing thoughts, to be honest. I love the Lord, and I love His Word, which is truth. And I love people, because the Lord has changed my heart, and shed His love abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit.
I feel that you are very uptight, and don’t think you could ever be wrong. Please see if this Scripture makes sense to you, and perhaps this truth may set you free.
“But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being decieved was in the transgression”. 1 Tim. 2:12-14
Mrs. Riplinger is disobeying the Word of God. She should be in “subjection”, for it was Eve who was deceived.
And BTW, What does BOO! mean? I don’t get it.
May the Lord’s grace be upon you.
Ms. Riplinger is not doing what she is doing inside a church house, from behind a pulpit either now is she?
donsonds you misrepresent the facts KNOWINGLY, with
great MALICE, and PREMEDITATION.
Read THE BOOK son and GROW IN GRACE.
“I feel that you are very uptight, and don’t think you
could ever be wrong.”
Quit trusting your FEEEEEEEEELINGS.Your FEEEEEEEEEELINGs
will get you in trouble son and mislead you.
Some of the people God used to help me in my walk with
the Lord, when I was young and stupid, I thought they
were MEAN. Looking back no in retrospect they were
SALTY CHRISTIANS. And I thank God for them, today!
I recall these words donsands and encourage you to look
them up “by good words and fair speeches they decieve
the simple”
The Lord will heal the wounds!
I did not mean to hurt your feelings, but the TRUTH
has a way of rubbing people raw.
I am going to get rid of this computer junk and get back
to passing out tracts on the streets. So don’t worry
about me hurting your feelings any more!
I KNOW FOR SURE WHAT MY SWORD IS,
DO YOU?
SO GET A KING JAMES BIBLE and be taught by the BIBLE
and Let by the Spirit.
And before I leave for good…….
God bless.
to: donsand
Miss Riplinger ain’t standing behind a pulpit in the
church usurping her authority over a man,.. now is she?
What was the context of the scripture you wrested from its context to misapply it to a woman who IS NOT A
Pastor, nor behind the pulpit in a church, nor usurping
authority over a man in the church?
I tried to be real nice to you, by graciously providing
everyone with the link they could check out for their
own selves.
You didn’t have to click on it ….did ya?
Now your feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelings are
hurt aren’t they. Kind of like that stupid young man
void of understanding did’nt have to jump in the sack
with the charismatic harlet daughter of Rome in
Proverbs 7, but he done it anyway because he didn’t
want to hurt her Feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelings. He didn’t
pass it up because he was stupid and didn’t think
it was Christian to hurt someone’s Feeeeeeeeelings
with the TRUTH.
You tried to draw me out and it blew up in your face!
Then you do what all lying apostates do with and display
your impudence by wresting scriptures from their context
an missaply those verses towards a woman who is not
behind the pulpit, nor usurping her authority over a man
IN THE CHURCH?
Shame on you!
Your Final Authority is James White, Not the Scriptures!
You ought to be thaking me for kicking the pedastal out
from under your god where you placed him.
You thought you were slicker than a watermelon in 50
gallon barrel of snot! Now did’nt ya?
I am wrong alot of the time. God judges me every day!
1st Corinthians 4:1-5, 6:1-6, 1st Peter 4:17.
Don’t kick the slats out of your crib, and squirt milk
milk out of your baby bottle all over your computer
whilst having your little tantrum.
Get over it!
James White is a is a liar and a professional con artist
and you have the proof.
Have a nice day heretic!
I got to get out of here, before you cause me to laugh
my self into a heart attack!
BYE, BYE SUCKER
I ain’t coming back.
I don’t see where Paul said this has anything to do with a house church, or a pulpit?
She is in sin. I pray she would repent, and keep silent as the Word of God insructs her to.
now juggle those two and take the one that feels the
best, a double minded man is unstable and since you are
maybe you’ll be juggling those two for a while.
Amazing isn’t he!
That is living proof of what happens to a man’s mind
when he deliberately perverts the WORDS OF GOD!
http://www.av1611kjb.org go there donsands and read every thing you can. There may be hope for you yet!
There’s no talking with you Brandon. And that’s a shame. I will pray that God releases you from not being able to converse with others.
“But avoid foolish disputes, …. Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned”. Titus 3:9-11
All Charismatics are devisive indeed. Perhaps tis why
they use am many as 15 perversions of unholy bibles
to promote their false doctrines they cannot defend
before a hillbilly who weilds a SWORD (KJB).
I hope you are proud of wresting those scriptures from their context and missapplication of those said scriptures against Riplinger who PROOOOOOVED your
god J.W. a LIAR. The Holy Bible teaches us to prove
all things. The aged ladies are supposed to teach the
younger ladies(Titus 2:3-5). And since you seemed as though you were a gentle young lady I kinda figured
you could benefit from the wisdom of another lady who
loves the Lord. See…I am wrong sometimes….I figured
you had a little bit of good sense…..I WAS WRONG,
I ADMIT IT! I was terribly WRONG. You don’t have a lick
of sense! Of course,… NO charismatic does.
I am for one am glad their are godly ladies such as miss
Riplinger who ain’t no pastor, and doesn’t usurp a man’s authority in a church assembly. She loves the
Savior. God is no respecter of persons, Neither am I,
and evidently a dear lady like Gail Riplinger ain’t either, most especially when it comes to professional
liars and hucksters like J.W.
I was on to you, along way back. My lovely wife went
into spasms when you pulled that “dead rabbit” of
scripture wresting above out of your hat, especially in light of the fact that you tried to send me to Soverign
Grace Ministries(charismatics that support vain babblings of women inside a church). They are the ones
who should repent. They would fare much better to read
Riplinger’s “New Age Bible Versions” than book that you
suggested for me by a man who has proven above measure
his hatred for the WORDS OF GOD in the KJB and those of
us who BELIEVE THE BOOK. THE BOOK and God’s children
who believe THE BOOK are a threat to his $$$$$$Income
made writing LIES.
BYE ,BYE , Heretic!