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	<title>Comments on: Emerging Morality</title>
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	<description>A Ministry of Shepherds' Fellowship</description>
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		<title>By: David C</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-7653</link>
		<dc:creator>David C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Feb 2007 04:58:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/#comment-7653</guid>
		<description>A lot of the problem is the love of subcultures, which is usually hand in hand with musical styles, etc.  We&#039;ve tried to &quot;baptize&quot; or &quot;Christianize&quot; every subculture under the sun in the name of tolerance and &quot;love,&quot; when really it&#039;s just the fact that people love the world and don&#039;t want to leave it.  Since when is it a foreign concept that your life should change if you die to the world to live in Christ?  Many of these subcultures(punk, goth, etc) have inherently unchristian mindsets tied to them, and as we refuse to address them for fear of being seen as close minded or intolerant, those subcultures and their attached mindsets enter the church and bring with it what we have today... a whole lot of good feelings with very little scripture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of the problem is the love of subcultures, which is usually hand in hand with musical styles, etc.  We&#8217;ve tried to &#8220;baptize&#8221; or &#8220;Christianize&#8221; every subculture under the sun in the name of tolerance and &#8220;love,&#8221; when really it&#8217;s just the fact that people love the world and don&#8217;t want to leave it.  Since when is it a foreign concept that your life should change if you die to the world to live in Christ?  Many of these subcultures(punk, goth, etc) have inherently unchristian mindsets tied to them, and as we refuse to address them for fear of being seen as close minded or intolerant, those subcultures and their attached mindsets enter the church and bring with it what we have today&#8230; a whole lot of good feelings with very little scripture.</p>
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		<title>By: Pastor Astor</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-6173</link>
		<dc:creator>Pastor Astor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 07:56:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/#comment-6173</guid>
		<description>I totally agree!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree!</p>
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		<title>By: Whyte Stonne</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-6093</link>
		<dc:creator>Whyte Stonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:58:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/#comment-6093</guid>
		<description>It seems that the first church building was built in the early third century, and the building craze really took off about 100 years later, after 321.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems that the first church building was built in the early third century, and the building craze really took off about 100 years later, after 321.</p>
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		<title>By: Whyte Stonne</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-6084</link>
		<dc:creator>Whyte Stonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:32:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/#comment-6084</guid>
		<description>Well, you said Monday, and it&#039;s only Wednesday.  No problem.

In terms of hospitality, I think Matthew 6:3 applies. &quot;Do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.&quot;  I&#039;ve always taken this to mean that your &quot;good deeds&quot; should be unknown even to yourself.  Not just a matter of humility, but being so led by the Spirit and by the Imago Dei that you are just doing what comes &quot;naturally.&quot;  

The servants in Luke 17:10 say, &quot;We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.&quot;

Yet again in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats.  The sheep are totally surprised by their reception into heaven.  They weren&#039;t expecting to get into heaven.  They didn&#039;t know that what they had done, they had done to Christ himself.  They were unconscious of their good deeds.

Regarding intimacy and church structure:  For sure, Christian church sanctuaries are designed the same as everyone else&#039;s non-Christian buildings are.  

As far as I know, whenever a special building exists for ANY religious group (orthodox Christian, heretical, apostate, secular, or non-Christian), there is the equivalent of a pulpit, usually on a platform, and rows of seats.

The layout of pulpit and pews is, essentially, worldly. Everyone uses the design and layout for the same purposes. There is literally nothing sacred about the pulpit and pew arrangement.  Christendom will never abandon that design.

The transmission of information and propaganda by a certified, credentialed spokesperson is at the core of how the buildings are organized. INFORMATION transmission, and CONTROL, are the chief concerns in the tradition of sanctuary design.

Here is the BIBLICAL priority for our gatherings.

&quot;Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another...&quot; (Hebrews 10:25a).

Why do we meet?  To encourage ONE ANOTHER. We do not meet in order for one or two people (plus a praise band or choir) to encourage us.  We are to encourage one another.  Maximum partipation. (see I Corinthians 10:26-33 and Colossians 3:16)

In ancient archaeology, the first specially built &quot;church building&quot; didn&#039;t appear until, I believe, the 300&#039;s.  

Thus, Christian church buildings appeared about the time the church started wresting control of temple buildings from the pagan Roman priesthoods.

And of course you know where the early Christian groups met--for the most part.

Hope you recover well, Pastor Astor--from your weekend AND your illness!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, you said Monday, and it&#8217;s only Wednesday.  No problem.</p>
<p>In terms of hospitality, I think Matthew 6:3 applies. &#8220;Do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing.&#8221;  I&#8217;ve always taken this to mean that your &#8220;good deeds&#8221; should be unknown even to yourself.  Not just a matter of humility, but being so led by the Spirit and by the Imago Dei that you are just doing what comes &#8220;naturally.&#8221;  </p>
<p>The servants in Luke 17:10 say, &#8220;We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yet again in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats.  The sheep are totally surprised by their reception into heaven.  They weren&#8217;t expecting to get into heaven.  They didn&#8217;t know that what they had done, they had done to Christ himself.  They were unconscious of their good deeds.</p>
<p>Regarding intimacy and church structure:  For sure, Christian church sanctuaries are designed the same as everyone else&#8217;s non-Christian buildings are.  </p>
<p>As far as I know, whenever a special building exists for ANY religious group (orthodox Christian, heretical, apostate, secular, or non-Christian), there is the equivalent of a pulpit, usually on a platform, and rows of seats.</p>
<p>The layout of pulpit and pews is, essentially, worldly. Everyone uses the design and layout for the same purposes. There is literally nothing sacred about the pulpit and pew arrangement.  Christendom will never abandon that design.</p>
<p>The transmission of information and propaganda by a certified, credentialed spokesperson is at the core of how the buildings are organized. INFORMATION transmission, and CONTROL, are the chief concerns in the tradition of sanctuary design.</p>
<p>Here is the BIBLICAL priority for our gatherings.</p>
<p>&#8220;Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another&#8230;&#8221; (Hebrews 10:25a).</p>
<p>Why do we meet?  To encourage ONE ANOTHER. We do not meet in order for one or two people (plus a praise band or choir) to encourage us.  We are to encourage one another.  Maximum partipation. (see I Corinthians 10:26-33 and Colossians 3:16)</p>
<p>In ancient archaeology, the first specially built &#8220;church building&#8221; didn&#8217;t appear until, I believe, the 300&#8217;s.  </p>
<p>Thus, Christian church buildings appeared about the time the church started wresting control of temple buildings from the pagan Roman priesthoods.</p>
<p>And of course you know where the early Christian groups met&#8211;for the most part.</p>
<p>Hope you recover well, Pastor Astor&#8211;from your weekend AND your illness!</p>
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		<title>By: Pastor Astor</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-6076</link>
		<dc:creator>Pastor Astor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/#comment-6076</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry I didn&#039;t get back here as soon as I said I would. The trip took a lot more energy than I expected. I am currently trying to get back to work after a lenghty illness, and can&#039;t always foresee how much energy something will take. 

Thank you so much for your insightful comments and questions, by the way! You really are an excellent conversation partner!

It´s good to hear that you have practiced hospitality for a long time. That makes it so much easier - that way you will not have to question your own motives for beeing hospitalble, even if it would be done intentionally.

I believe one major barrier to intimacy is that intimacy is not made part of the deal of how we do church - demanding intimacy would be breaking the rules we have set up. The way we do church is a example of this - I have as much interaction with others in a normal service as I have with the people in the bus on my way to work - I look at others necks, and have mine viewed by others. We sit pretty close to each other for an hour because we are travelling in the same direction, but thats it.
True intimacy requires vulnerability and dependancy on others, and we are not comfortable with that. We have reached an economic standard that allows us to be independant, and I believe we have yet to realize that independance is also lonliness.
Intimacy also requires proximaty - we need to be close to one another. Living nearby - reinventing the nieighbourhood, maybe? Perhaps question the whole &quot;bigger is better&quot; mentality - how many people can you be intimate with?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry I didn&#8217;t get back here as soon as I said I would. The trip took a lot more energy than I expected. I am currently trying to get back to work after a lenghty illness, and can&#8217;t always foresee how much energy something will take. </p>
<p>Thank you so much for your insightful comments and questions, by the way! You really are an excellent conversation partner!</p>
<p>It´s good to hear that you have practiced hospitality for a long time. That makes it so much easier &#8211; that way you will not have to question your own motives for beeing hospitalble, even if it would be done intentionally.</p>
<p>I believe one major barrier to intimacy is that intimacy is not made part of the deal of how we do church &#8211; demanding intimacy would be breaking the rules we have set up. The way we do church is a example of this &#8211; I have as much interaction with others in a normal service as I have with the people in the bus on my way to work &#8211; I look at others necks, and have mine viewed by others. We sit pretty close to each other for an hour because we are travelling in the same direction, but thats it.<br />
True intimacy requires vulnerability and dependancy on others, and we are not comfortable with that. We have reached an economic standard that allows us to be independant, and I believe we have yet to realize that independance is also lonliness.<br />
Intimacy also requires proximaty &#8211; we need to be close to one another. Living nearby &#8211; reinventing the nieighbourhood, maybe? Perhaps question the whole &#8220;bigger is better&#8221; mentality &#8211; how many people can you be intimate with?</p>
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		<title>By: Pastor Astor</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-5635</link>
		<dc:creator>Pastor Astor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jan 2007 06:43:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/#comment-5635</guid>
		<description>I really appreciate this conversation! Sadly, I will be gone for a couple of days, and will not be able to answer this before monday. I am going to a youth volunteers gathering to teach. So, until then, i wish you a blessed weekend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really appreciate this conversation! Sadly, I will be gone for a couple of days, and will not be able to answer this before monday. I am going to a youth volunteers gathering to teach. So, until then, i wish you a blessed weekend.</p>
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		<title>By: Whyte Stonne</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-5602</link>
		<dc:creator>Whyte Stonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/#comment-5602</guid>
		<description>So Pastor Astor, you&#039;re believe Christians need to make *major* lifestyle changes. Lifestyle considerations shouldn&#039;t be restricted to smoking, alcohol, movies and the like.  Lifestyle changes can include decisions about who you live with--expanding the nuclear family to include those outside the family circle.

My wife and I have had people live with us on and off our whole lives.  Not with the intentional, missional goals you have described, but simply helping our homeless friends.

You ask, &quot;How can we be a fellowship that not only demands celibacy, but also offers enough intimacy to make it a possibilty worth considering?&quot;

Your post above suggests numerous ways to enhance the intimacy of our Christian relationships.  You describe radical lifestyle changes, as well as modest changes.

What do you see as some of the major barriers to intimacy among Christians?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So Pastor Astor, you&#8217;re believe Christians need to make *major* lifestyle changes. Lifestyle considerations shouldn&#8217;t be restricted to smoking, alcohol, movies and the like.  Lifestyle changes can include decisions about who you live with&#8211;expanding the nuclear family to include those outside the family circle.</p>
<p>My wife and I have had people live with us on and off our whole lives.  Not with the intentional, missional goals you have described, but simply helping our homeless friends.</p>
<p>You ask, &#8220;How can we be a fellowship that not only demands celibacy, but also offers enough intimacy to make it a possibilty worth considering?&#8221;</p>
<p>Your post above suggests numerous ways to enhance the intimacy of our Christian relationships.  You describe radical lifestyle changes, as well as modest changes.</p>
<p>What do you see as some of the major barriers to intimacy among Christians?</p>
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		<title>By: Pastor Astor</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-5574</link>
		<dc:creator>Pastor Astor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 08:49:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/#comment-5574</guid>
		<description>I believe it might be easier in a start up situation, but that does not mean in would be impossible in other situations. Lets think of it as a problem of people beeing isolated and alone; celibate homosexuals, longtime singles, widows and widowers. Primarily it is about seeing it as a problem, not about family but about church, noone should be alone in the household of God, and then take it from there.
Church history is full of different examples of communal living that could serve as inspiration for different kinds of people:

The extended family - get your children a new &quot;uncle&quot; or &quot;aunt&quot; - someone who doesn´t live in your house, but drops by whenever and always turns up for holidays etc.
The extended household - get a live in, why not a new grand parent?
The praying orders - buy a house and invite church widows (and other female singles) to move in and dedicate themselves to a life in intercession for the church, the city, the world. Treat them with the respect their ministry is worth.
The social orders - the same thing, but theese ones will be the backbone of your social ministry instead.
Why not plant a brotherhood of believers in the worst part of town? Or even as a missionary enterprice somewhere in the world?
The working orders - you get the idea, theese people have regular jobs, but live together, cook together and share life - they fill the need of partnership for one another.
The temple widows - how about having some elderly women live in the church to serve in practical and spiritual ways? Cleaning, running a food bank/soup kitchen, praying morning, noon and evening, welcoming visitors, easier cases of counselling.

Think of singles as a tremendous resource for the kingdom! Paul says they are not so burdened with the interests of this world (my parafrase), they have time, they are mobile, they can act on short notice, they have no one to be resposible to other than God, they can take risks a parent couldn´t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe it might be easier in a start up situation, but that does not mean in would be impossible in other situations. Lets think of it as a problem of people beeing isolated and alone; celibate homosexuals, longtime singles, widows and widowers. Primarily it is about seeing it as a problem, not about family but about church, noone should be alone in the household of God, and then take it from there.<br />
Church history is full of different examples of communal living that could serve as inspiration for different kinds of people:</p>
<p>The extended family &#8211; get your children a new &#8220;uncle&#8221; or &#8220;aunt&#8221; &#8211; someone who doesn´t live in your house, but drops by whenever and always turns up for holidays etc.<br />
The extended household &#8211; get a live in, why not a new grand parent?<br />
The praying orders &#8211; buy a house and invite church widows (and other female singles) to move in and dedicate themselves to a life in intercession for the church, the city, the world. Treat them with the respect their ministry is worth.<br />
The social orders &#8211; the same thing, but theese ones will be the backbone of your social ministry instead.<br />
Why not plant a brotherhood of believers in the worst part of town? Or even as a missionary enterprice somewhere in the world?<br />
The working orders &#8211; you get the idea, theese people have regular jobs, but live together, cook together and share life &#8211; they fill the need of partnership for one another.<br />
The temple widows &#8211; how about having some elderly women live in the church to serve in practical and spiritual ways? Cleaning, running a food bank/soup kitchen, praying morning, noon and evening, welcoming visitors, easier cases of counselling.</p>
<p>Think of singles as a tremendous resource for the kingdom! Paul says they are not so burdened with the interests of this world (my parafrase), they have time, they are mobile, they can act on short notice, they have no one to be resposible to other than God, they can take risks a parent couldn´t.</p>
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		<title>By: Whyte Stonne</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-5550</link>
		<dc:creator>Whyte Stonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 23:36:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/#comment-5550</guid>
		<description>If I am understanding you correctly, the issue of homosexuality has been infected by the the desire of some Christians to deal with the &quot;problem&quot; of sexual orientation legislatively.  

That is, some Christian leaders want to wield the power of the state against a certain segment of the population.

Two more questions.  You asked, &quot;How do we form a fellowship that is more family and less theatre, in order for abstaining homosexuals (and for that part, heterosexual singles) to have real, intimate relationships?&quot;

Do you think the formation of a supportive, intimate, relationship-friendly &quot;family&quot; is more likely to be successful in an already established church or in a &quot;start-up&quot; situation?  

Assuming the &quot;start-up&quot; church setting is easier, do you have any advice for people and clerics in long-established churches?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I am understanding you correctly, the issue of homosexuality has been infected by the the desire of some Christians to deal with the &#8220;problem&#8221; of sexual orientation legislatively.  </p>
<p>That is, some Christian leaders want to wield the power of the state against a certain segment of the population.</p>
<p>Two more questions.  You asked, &#8220;How do we form a fellowship that is more family and less theatre, in order for abstaining homosexuals (and for that part, heterosexual singles) to have real, intimate relationships?&#8221;</p>
<p>Do you think the formation of a supportive, intimate, relationship-friendly &#8220;family&#8221; is more likely to be successful in an already established church or in a &#8220;start-up&#8221; situation?  </p>
<p>Assuming the &#8220;start-up&#8221; church setting is easier, do you have any advice for people and clerics in long-established churches?</p>
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		<title>By: Pastor Astor</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-5545</link>
		<dc:creator>Pastor Astor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 22:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sfpulpit.com/2007/01/03/emerging-morality/#comment-5545</guid>
		<description>I believe, in part at least, that our unwillingness to admit that our countries are not christian, but people in them are, and thus wanting to force our ethics on people through legislation have made us feel attacked by non believers. That, in turn has made us hit back.

Why would we care if non christian homosexuals have sex? Why would we oppose them having steady commited relationships? The abstinance from the sin of homosexual practice wont get them to heaven, only a relationship with Christ will.

Had we focused instead on being a body of believers acting out the love of God in this world, I believe our situation would look much different. We would be a place for everyone, including homosexuals, to encounter God. 

People seek God. Many die in despair, not having found him. When they come to us, we slap them over the face with our ethics.

&quot;You are wrong&quot; is so easy to say - it demands nothing of us.

&quot;You are loved&quot; is much harder, since we are called to present and represent that love.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe, in part at least, that our unwillingness to admit that our countries are not christian, but people in them are, and thus wanting to force our ethics on people through legislation have made us feel attacked by non believers. That, in turn has made us hit back.</p>
<p>Why would we care if non christian homosexuals have sex? Why would we oppose them having steady commited relationships? The abstinance from the sin of homosexual practice wont get them to heaven, only a relationship with Christ will.</p>
<p>Had we focused instead on being a body of believers acting out the love of God in this world, I believe our situation would look much different. We would be a place for everyone, including homosexuals, to encounter God. </p>
<p>People seek God. Many die in despair, not having found him. When they come to us, we slap them over the face with our ethics.</p>
<p>&#8220;You are wrong&#8221; is so easy to say &#8211; it demands nothing of us.</p>
<p>&#8220;You are loved&#8221; is much harder, since we are called to present and represent that love.</p>
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