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	<title>Comments on: Brian McLaren and the Clarity of Scripture (Part 3)</title>
	<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/</link>
	<description>A Ministry of Shepherds' Fellowship</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: I&#8217;m Going to Pick a Fight &#187; Strangers and Exiles</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4583</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Dec 2006 01:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4583</guid>
					<description>[...] Brian McLaren and the Clarity of Scripture (Part 3) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Brian McLaren and the Clarity of Scripture (Part 3) [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: Phil Perkins</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4556</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:47:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4556</guid>
					<description>Scott G.,
Welcome--run with it. What the ECM is saying on the subject is really a big fib and history refutes it. Check my site for a full article on it. This is a good answer to their claim. Spread it around for use by Christians.

Phil Perkins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott G.,<br />
Welcome&#8211;run with it. What the ECM is saying on the subject is really a big fib and history refutes it. Check my site for a full article on it. This is a good answer to their claim. Spread it around for use by Christians.</p>
<p>Phil Perkins.
</p>
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		<title>by: Scott G</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4545</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 06:28:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4545</guid>
					<description>Phil Perkins,

Thanks for the insight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil Perkins,</p>
<p>Thanks for the insight.
</p>
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		<title>by: Phil Perkins</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4540</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Dec 2006 02:44:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4540</guid>
					<description>Pastor MacArthur,
An intersting note concerns the attempt of the Emergents to attribute the idea of doctrinal certainty to modernity. This is bunk. The change toward certainty made in the Enlightenment was not universal. Rather, Christians had always relied on the doctrinal certainty found in Scriptures. 

What changed is that suddenly the laws of nature were seen to be as certain and immutable as the Scriptures--Morris, Klein; &lt;em&gt;Mathematics and the Search for Knowledge&lt;/em&gt;; Oxford University Press; 1985; page 95.

Very clever, but very deceptive on their part.

In Christ,
Phil Perkins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pastor MacArthur,<br />
An intersting note concerns the attempt of the Emergents to attribute the idea of doctrinal certainty to modernity. This is bunk. The change toward certainty made in the Enlightenment was not universal. Rather, Christians had always relied on the doctrinal certainty found in Scriptures. </p>
<p>What changed is that suddenly the laws of nature were seen to be as certain and immutable as the Scriptures&#8211;Morris, Klein; <em>Mathematics and the Search for Knowledge</em>; Oxford University Press; 1985; page 95.</p>
<p>Very clever, but very deceptive on their part.</p>
<p>In Christ,<br />
Phil Perkins.
</p>
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		<title>by: Bobby Grow</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4529</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:54:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4529</guid>
					<description>I think PoMo epistemology is just the logical conclusion of Modernistic epistemology. In other words, the distinction between the two is apparently artificial since both still are built upon a "foundationalist" rationalist epistemological framework. (so I think Grenz was wrong, in his "Beyond Foundationalism"--PoMo is just an extension of foundationalism) 

In your mind (sfpulpit guys) what distinguishes the typical modernistic articulation of theology from the PoMo articulation--given their foundation in rationalist epistemology? In other words isn't the reductionism of systematic theology [modernism] (i.e. propositional statements)reflective of the same "negative" approach that PoMo advocates are being honest about.

In Christ</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think PoMo epistemology is just the logical conclusion of Modernistic epistemology. In other words, the distinction between the two is apparently artificial since both still are built upon a &#8220;foundationalist&#8221; rationalist epistemological framework. (so I think Grenz was wrong, in his &#8220;Beyond Foundationalism&#8221;&#8211;PoMo is just an extension of foundationalism) </p>
<p>In your mind (sfpulpit guys) what distinguishes the typical modernistic articulation of theology from the PoMo articulation&#8211;given their foundation in rationalist epistemology? In other words isn&#8217;t the reductionism of systematic theology [modernism] (i.e. propositional statements)reflective of the same &#8220;negative&#8221; approach that PoMo advocates are being honest about.</p>
<p>In Christ
</p>
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		<title>by: Nate B.</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4528</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:51:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4528</guid>
					<description>Frank,

Thanks for your comment. Good question.

I think there are two issues involved in your question--&lt;em&gt;ability&lt;/em&gt; and &lt;em&gt;authority&lt;/em&gt;.

1) Do people have the &lt;em&gt;ability&lt;/em&gt; to understand the Scriptures on their own, using the normal rules of language?

The Reformers would say "yes". (This, I believe, was the point of Luther's response to Erasmus.)

2) Are people their own individual &lt;em&gt;authority&lt;/em&gt; for determining the meaning of Scripture?

The Reformers would say "no." Scripture is its own authority (and the only authority for faith and practice). Hence the reformed doctrine of &lt;em&gt;sola Scriptura&lt;/em&gt;.

In contrast, when McLaren promotes ambiguity, he undercuts the individual reader's confidence in his own &lt;em&gt;ability&lt;/em&gt; to read and understand Scripture. On the flip side, when McLaren questions basic biblical doctrines (like eternal punishment), he openly challenges the &lt;em&gt;authority&lt;/em&gt; of Scripture.

So, both in regards to &lt;em&gt;ability&lt;/em&gt; and &lt;em&gt;authority&lt;/em&gt;, I believe the Reformers would have been opposed to McLaren's position.

Hope that helps,
NB</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frank,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comment. Good question.</p>
<p>I think there are two issues involved in your question&#8211;<em>ability</em> and <em>authority</em>.</p>
<p>1) Do people have the <em>ability</em> to understand the Scriptures on their own, using the normal rules of language?</p>
<p>The Reformers would say &#8220;yes&#8221;. (This, I believe, was the point of Luther&#8217;s response to Erasmus.)</p>
<p>2) Are people their own individual <em>authority</em> for determining the meaning of Scripture?</p>
<p>The Reformers would say &#8220;no.&#8221; Scripture is its own authority (and the only authority for faith and practice). Hence the reformed doctrine of <em>sola Scriptura</em>.</p>
<p>In contrast, when McLaren promotes ambiguity, he undercuts the individual reader&#8217;s confidence in his own <em>ability</em> to read and understand Scripture. On the flip side, when McLaren questions basic biblical doctrines (like eternal punishment), he openly challenges the <em>authority</em> of Scripture.</p>
<p>So, both in regards to <em>ability</em> and <em>authority</em>, I believe the Reformers would have been opposed to McLaren&#8217;s position.</p>
<p>Hope that helps,<br />
NB
</p>
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		<title>by: centuri0n (F. Turk)</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4523</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Dec 2006 21:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4523</guid>
					<description>Personally, I find this series useful and encouraging.  But, of course, that means I'm thinking about it and I have questions.

In part 1, Dr. MacArthur presented the summary view of the reformation as the contrast between the Reformed view of Biblical perspicuity over against the Roman Catholic view of partim-partim or Scripture plus authority.  That contrast he summarized as one which poses "anyone who can read can understand the Bible" vs. the idea that we can only understand the Bible through a magisterium or teaching authority.

I say that's a fair enough contrast.  Here's my question: what is the difference between the "anyone who can read can understand the Bible" and the pomo view that everyone is entited to his interpretation -- that is, how does the former explain or expect agreement between two readers of the same text if that text?  Some might say that McLaren's view is only on the skeptical end of the evangelical spectrum rather than a violation of the perspicuity principle, and I was wondering how the men at sfpulpit would answer that claim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I find this series useful and encouraging.  But, of course, that means I&#8217;m thinking about it and I have questions.</p>
<p>In part 1, Dr. MacArthur presented the summary view of the reformation as the contrast between the Reformed view of Biblical perspicuity over against the Roman Catholic view of partim-partim or Scripture plus authority.  That contrast he summarized as one which poses &#8220;anyone who can read can understand the Bible&#8221; vs. the idea that we can only understand the Bible through a magisterium or teaching authority.</p>
<p>I say that&#8217;s a fair enough contrast.  Here&#8217;s my question: what is the difference between the &#8220;anyone who can read can understand the Bible&#8221; and the pomo view that everyone is entited to his interpretation &#8212; that is, how does the former explain or expect agreement between two readers of the same text if that text?  Some might say that McLaren&#8217;s view is only on the skeptical end of the evangelical spectrum rather than a violation of the perspicuity principle, and I was wondering how the men at sfpulpit would answer that claim.
</p>
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		<title>by: donsands</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4511</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4511</guid>
					<description>Very edifying. Studying someones error is good, when done in love, and when one is compelled to read, study, and search the Holy Word of God, in order to contend for the faith. And this is something for all the Lord's saints to be doing, not just those who are rulers in the body of Christ, though, of course, their calling is to a higher degree, and one that exhorts, encourages, and admonishes the people of God.

Thanks for all the hard work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very edifying. Studying someones error is good, when done in love, and when one is compelled to read, study, and search the Holy Word of God, in order to contend for the faith. And this is something for all the Lord&#8217;s saints to be doing, not just those who are rulers in the body of Christ, though, of course, their calling is to a higher degree, and one that exhorts, encourages, and admonishes the people of God.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the hard work.
</p>
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		<title>by: Scott G</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4504</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4504</guid>
					<description>Great article!  Quoting from Mohler and Frame demonstrate that MacArthur is not just making this conflict up.  Inevitably, postmoderns will try to wriggle out of these summaries, but these posts are so clarifying.  They really help those of us who want to remain true to the Bible to be able to better interact with those trying to advance error.

It seems that many postmodern thinkers want to equate classic evangelical theology with modernism.  As helpful as it is to refute postmodern methodology, it would be equally helpful to differentiate "biblical theology" from "modern theology."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article!  Quoting from Mohler and Frame demonstrate that MacArthur is not just making this conflict up.  Inevitably, postmoderns will try to wriggle out of these summaries, but these posts are so clarifying.  They really help those of us who want to remain true to the Bible to be able to better interact with those trying to advance error.</p>
<p>It seems that many postmodern thinkers want to equate classic evangelical theology with modernism.  As helpful as it is to refute postmodern methodology, it would be equally helpful to differentiate &#8220;biblical theology&#8221; from &#8220;modern theology.&#8221;
</p>
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		<title>by: Doug V. Heck</title>
		<link>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4499</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:21:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.sfpulpit.com/2006/12/20/brian-mclaren-and-the-clarity-of-scripture-part-3/#comment-4499</guid>
					<description>Thanks Pastor for your work. I'm sure many, like me, wake early to read your posts about ECM, looking forward to release of the book - so tell Phil to hurry. I've not been as anxious to read a new book since "The Gospel According to Jesus," as it takes a pastor, in my view, to objectively evaluate such trends - someone who can summarize from a perspective of multiple decades of errant challenge to the Word of God. And this from experience in the tranches of real life ministry and not simply from the library or classroom. I make some feeble attempts to read some by professional educators (seminary or university) on modern hermeneutic error and challenges to truth, but really although of some value, they remain too theoretical at times. Seems in this area, it is clearly time for both professors and pastors to boldly step forward and clear the house of evangelical tolerance with some square Biblical boundaries, least the New Hermeneutic errors deconstruct centuries of theological diologue for the current and future generations. I'm humbled and thankful to the Lord for your faithful example and willingness to step out on this issue that will no doubt cause serious criticism on many fronts. And I'm also thankful for the heritage of The Master's College and Seminary, that takes the rare stand of fighting for the clarity and sufficiency of SCripture, amid the arena of such errant thinking. We applaud your determination during the days of our evangelical Downgrade.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Pastor for your work. I&#8217;m sure many, like me, wake early to read your posts about ECM, looking forward to release of the book - so tell Phil to hurry. I&#8217;ve not been as anxious to read a new book since &#8220;The Gospel According to Jesus,&#8221; as it takes a pastor, in my view, to objectively evaluate such trends - someone who can summarize from a perspective of multiple decades of errant challenge to the Word of God. And this from experience in the tranches of real life ministry and not simply from the library or classroom. I make some feeble attempts to read some by professional educators (seminary or university) on modern hermeneutic error and challenges to truth, but really although of some value, they remain too theoretical at times. Seems in this area, it is clearly time for both professors and pastors to boldly step forward and clear the house of evangelical tolerance with some square Biblical boundaries, least the New Hermeneutic errors deconstruct centuries of theological diologue for the current and future generations. I&#8217;m humbled and thankful to the Lord for your faithful example and willingness to step out on this issue that will no doubt cause serious criticism on many fronts. And I&#8217;m also thankful for the heritage of The Master&#8217;s College and Seminary, that takes the rare stand of fighting for the clarity and sufficiency of SCripture, amid the arena of such errant thinking. We applaud your determination during the days of our evangelical Downgrade.
</p>
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